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Tsunami Alerts Throughout Pacific after 8.8 Quake, Waves Hit U.S. Shores; No All-Clear in Hawaii Despite Downgraded Tsunami Threat; Trump Claims Estrangement from Epstein Due to Poaching of Employees from Mar-a- Lago; Marjorie Taylor Greene Labels Gaza Crisis a Genocide; Police Digging Deeper into Manhattan Gunman's Motive; Starmer Demands Hamas Release Hostages and Disarm; Trump Views Palestinian State as a Reward for Hamas; IPC Describes Gaza with "Worst-Case Scenario of Famine". Aired 10-11a ET
Aired July 30, 2025 - 10:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
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BECKY ANDERSON, CNN HOST (voice-over): Welcome to the second hour of the show. I'm Becky Anderson in London today, where the time is just after 3:00
in the afternoon.
A huge earthquake in Russia's far east triggers a tsunami wave of over 1.5 meters in Maui, Hawaii, and other major waves around the Pacific.
The United Nations agency is warning that time is running out to mount a full-scale humanitarian response in the besieged Gaza enclave. This comes
as Britain says it will recognize a Palestinian state unless Israel agrees to a Gaza ceasefire.
President Trump says Jeffrey Epstein poached young women from Mar-a-Lago. This raises new questions about what he knew.
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ANDERSON: Let's get you to our top story. We are keeping a close watch on tsunami waves that are hitting the U.S. West Coast. One of the newest
developments right now, Hawaii and Japan both downgrading their tsunami warnings to advisories. But alerts remain in force for millions throughout
the Pacific region.
The tsunami threat was triggered by a massive 8.8 magnitude quake that struck Russia's far east hours ago. You're looking at video from Japan's
second biggest island, Hokkaido, where people fled to the highest rooftops that they could find there.
Tourists and residents in Maui in Hawaii ended up sleeping in cars after evacuating to higher ground. But officials say the worst is over for
Hawaii. It is important to note, still, though, that we are hearing from officials, who are urging people to remain vigilant and to avoid
coastlines.
Let's bring in seismologist Jeffrey park, who's a professor of Earth and Planetary Sciences at Yale University. Couldn't have a better guest,
joining us now from New Haven in Connecticut.
Sir, thank you. Some warnings now shifting to advisories. Officials, though, are still urging people not to let their guard down.
From your perspective, what do you see as the situation now in the Pacific and along that West Coast of the United States?
JEFFREY PARK, SEISMOLOGIST; PROFESSOR, YALE UNIVERSITY: Well, the tsunami is basically rattling around in the Pacific Ocean. And the primary danger
is from the first wave or set of waves that arrive early. And those are the ones that are timed well.
But then there are reverberations that can lead to secondary pulses of tsunami motion that could occur later. So they're not as damaging as the
first, as the first waves that arrived. But they still are concerning. People should be careful about returning to the seashore.
ANDERSON: Where are the waves hitting?
Where have they hit and how high and powerful are they?
Or have they been to date?
PARK: Well, in the region of Kamchatka, where the earthquake occurred, just offshore, they were probably very high.
But we -- I'm not aware yet of specific estimates of that. The coastal communities of Kamchatka are sparsely populated. And so there's not much
information from there. There was a lot of shaking in the city of Petropavlovsk. But not quite a lot of destruction.
The largest motion for this earthquake was actually about 100 kilometers south of Petropavlovsk. And so -- and offshore, in the latest
reconstructions. The area that ruptured was quite large. It was about the size of the state of Connecticut, where I live.
ANDERSON: Wow. That's remarkable. Look, people are being told to be on their guard.
So as we look to the Pacific Coast region, where is a safe place to shelter in a situation like this?
And, of course, you know, we don't get a lot of situations like this. So this is pretty historic stuff.
PARK: Yes. You want to be above a sea level. I mean, if -- you know, I've been on the beach in Costa Rica, where they say, here's the escape route
for a tsunami and basically it's a path. If you hear an earthquake or feel an earthquake, you're just, turn away from the ocean and run until you're
in higher ground.
So just to stay, you know, a few meters above sea level is the best advice.
ANDERSON: So let's have a look at the timeline then. Now we are seeing evacuation orders.
[10:05:00]
But advisories are shifting.
How long is it before people will be in the clear at this point?
You've obviously suggested that, you know, people have to be very mindful that we can have aftershocks and all the rest of it.
What are you watching most and what are your biggest concerns at this point?
PARK: Well, the biggest concern would be just that subsidiary waves that might add a smaller tsunami shock but that would not be in some of the
computer models that have enabled us to predict exactly when the first arrival of the tsunami is.
But in a more long-term, aftershocks in the area of Russia, those are -- those are going to be problematic. And also, Kamchatka has a lot of active
volcanoes. And also it has historically volcanoes that have become -- that were inactive but became active after a large earthquake occurred under
them.
And so Petropavlovsk, the largest city in Kamchatka, actually is right next door to two large volcanoes that have had activity this century.
ANDERSON: And very briefly, after 2006 and, of course, 2011, how much better is your modeling these days?
How much more information do you have to ensure that we can at least try and avoid the catastrophic situations that we've seen in the past?
PARK: It's very much, much better than, say, 25 years ago, before the Sumatra-Andaman earthquake. We now have tsunami warning systems in every
ocean basin because we only had them in the Pacific before.
And now we have it in the Indian Ocean as well. And so also the access to seismic data in enormous volumes that that gets fed into computer codes,
that actually locate the earthquake but also model the rupture of the earthquake, so you get a better idea of its ability to generate a tsunami.
There was an earthquake in this region about 10 days ago, about 7.3, that had a source mechanism that was not conducive to creating a tsunami. Yet
that earthquake was probably a precursory release of strain for this one that happened today.
ANDERSON: Fascinating. Good to have you, sir. Thank you very much indeed.
Well, let's get you to CNN's Veronica Miracle. She is live in Santa Monica, California.
Waves have been reaching the U.S. West Coast and we've just been talking to seismologists there, giving us a sense of what has happened and what we can
expect.
What's the latest that you're hearing there in California?
VERONICA MIRACLE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Becky, here in Southern California, officials are really concerned about the current this morning.
There has been no significant damage. There's been no flooding here. That's the great news that people are waking up to.
But what officials want is people to stay out of the water. They don't want swimmers or surfers, typically seen in the early morning waters in the --
they don't want them in the waters at all. They're clearing the beaches. They're clearing any events and they're asking RVs to move away from the
coastlines.
And they're doing their best to keep them as clear as possible because of the potential dangers that are still lingering in terms of up and down the
West Coast from Washington all the way down to California.
It appears that the biggest concern was Northern California waves being reported up to four feet in Crescent City. And that's an area that
officials are actively monitoring to make sure that there's no significant damage.
Over in Hawaii, there, they had waves up to almost six feet. There was flooding and there was major concerns that the waves could reach almost up
to 10 feet. That didn't come to fruition but there was still damage. Luckily, no injuries have been reported but there was a lot of chaos as
people were trying to evacuate and go up to the mountains.
There was a big traffic jam on a lot of the different islands. And on the Big Island of Hawaii, in fact, there were some tourists who were left
stranded when a cruise ship had to leave the port and abandoned those tourists there.
So a lot of cleanup today and a lot of making sure that people are getting to where they need to be. But the word overall from officials is to stay
vigilant and to make sure that, you know, really paying attention to those water lines and making sure that you're staying safe and not getting into
those really dangerous currents.
ANDERSON: And Veronica, are people heeding those warnings?
MIRACLE: It really does appear so. At least here where we are in Santa Monica, we've been watching the beach line. We did see overnight
helicopters with their spotlights, keeping an eye on the beaches; patrol officers patrolling the beaches, keeping people off.
And it does appear that people really were taking these things seriously, taking the warnings seriously, which is the good news, Becky.
ANDERSON: Yes, absolutely. Good to have you there. Thank you.
Well, still to come, why president Donald Trump's latest explanation about why he ended his friendship with Jeffrey Epstein is raising all kinds of
new questions about their past.
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ANDERSON: Well, the Trump administration has tried for days now to change the subject away from Jeffrey Epstein. President Donald Trump himself seems
to keep hampering that effort by talking about it.
On Tuesday, the president told reporters his fallout with Epstein was triggered after Epstein poached young employees away from his Mar-a-Lago
resort spa. The president's remarks about the late sex offender came as he returned from Scotland, where he faced continued scrutiny over his
relationship with Epstein.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: I have a great spa, one of the best spas in the world at Mar-a- Lago. And people were taken out of the spa, hired by him. In other words, gone. When I heard about it, I told him, I said, listen, we don't want you
taking our people, whether it was spa or not spa. I don't want him taking people. And he was fine.
And then not too long after that, he did it again. And I said, out of here.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANDERSON: Well, he went on to say that one of those employees may have been Virginia Giuffre, one of Epstein's most prominent vocal accusers, seen
here. Well, CNN Politics senior reporter Stephen Collinson joining me once again this hour.
And Stephen, Trump's comments do seem to be resulting in digging somewhat of a hole for himself.
And where can the president go from here?
What do you make of what we are hearing in what ofttimes seem off-the-cuff remarks from a president, who enjoys his own stream of consciousness out
loud?
But this is serious stuff.
STEPHEN COLLINSON, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yes.
And I think you can imagine people sitting in the White House, waiting for the president to fly home from Scotland, when they saw those remarks coming
over, they were probably rolling their eyes because this just gave this drama another lease of life, another news cycle.
It was all over U.S. cable TV, apart from the conservative stations last night and I think that is actually quite a significant distinction, because
what was different about this political scandal, if you want to call it that, was it was the first one that really set Donald Trump against some of
his most vocal supporters.
There's this conspiracy theory that Trump and his supporters fanned during the campaign trail, that the government was covering something up about the
Jeffrey Epstein case, that they had these files in the Justice Department.
And when Trump came into office and his hand-picked Justice Department officials refused to show the files, that fanned the conspiracy theory
again. So while I think that some of these remarks by the president are quite callous, frankly.
[10:15:04]
The way he talks about women that were eventually caught up in alleged sex trafficking and his complaint seems to be that they were stolen from his
employ by Jeffrey Epstein, that doesn't reflect well on his character with a great deal of voters.
I don't think there's anything in the latest revelations that necessarily make this worse with the president's own core support. And that is the key
issue. And that is the one that the White House was most concerned about as this went on.
But as you say, every time the president gets asked about this by mainstream journalists, he talks about it and he seems to make the
situation worse.
ANDERSON: I think it's important to point out for our international viewers that, whilst we're seeing sort of, you know, MAGA breaking ranks on
his administration when it comes to the wider story, that they see as the Jeffrey Epstein sort of, you know, hoax, they want to see these files
revealed.
When it comes to anything that would put Trump in the sweet spot in this story, they go quiet to a degree.
Am I right in saying that?
There's a differentiation, isn't there, in the narrative here?
COLLINSON: Certainly. And the longer it's gone on, that is definitely the case. I think the breaking point for this was "The Wall Street Journal"
story a couple of weeks ago, which, you remember. "The Wall Street Journal" alleged that the president had written a somewhat lewd birthday message to
Jeffrey Epstein. The president denied that.
He said he did nothing of the sort and has even suggested that it was a fake. And he's suing "The Wall Street Journal."
But although "The Wall Street Journal" is a conservative newspaper, it was seen by many Trump supporters as the president against the fake news. And
that has been a very powerful, galvanizing force for Trump ever since his first presidential election campaign and to this day.
So that did gather around, I think, some of the most vocal conservative influence on podcasts on online and on YouTube. And that, I think, helped
the president and people around him say that that is also the case.
But it's going to be interesting to see what happens over the summer. Congress is in recess right now. Members of Trump's Republican Party are
back in their districts.
If they're hearing a lot about this from people who listen to that conservative media, you could see a growth in the demands for
accountability when they get back to Washington in September.
I don't think this is going away and I think it's going to keep coming back. But the signs are, unless there is something nefarious we don't know
about and which Trump has denied, it's not going to be something that's going to really damage the presidency, you know, profoundly.
At a time when Trump is celebrating a lot of wins -- the trade deal over the E.U. the spike in economic growth today -- he's doing a lot of things
that MAGA people want. So you have to balance this drama against that.
ANDERSON: While I've got you, I do want to just quickly mention Marjorie Taylor Greene. She, of course, has been very vocal about getting these
files uncovered. She is also she's very much on the MAGA Right of the of the Republican Party.
Of course, she's also the first Republican in Congress to use the term "genocide" to describe the situation in Gaza, Stephen.
She posted on X, quote, "It's the most truthful and easiest thing to say that October the 7th in Israel was horrific and all hostages must be
returned but," she goes on, "so is the genocide, humanitarian crisis and starvation happening in Gaza."
What do you make of that?
COLLINSON: Yes, it's interesting. And a lot of people have been almost joking that, you know, it's odd that Marjorie Taylor Greene is seen as a
voice of moderation on this issue in the Republican Party. I think she's a very iconoclastic member of Congress.
And she also, a little bit like Trump, has a habit of conducting these monologues with reporters as she's walking around. So I don't think
necessarily this is something that really represents the base of feeling in Trump's Republican Party on this issue.
It's interesting that, although the president has criticized Benjamin Netanyahu, the prime minister of Israel, on this issue this week, he's not
really separating himself with him on a policy level.
He's said we're going to work with the Israelis to get more aid in. Critics would say that the U.S.-Israeli backed private aid initiative is one of the
causes of this situation.
[10:20:00]
So while there is growing pressure on the president, I think internationally and to some extent domestically on this issue.
Because he doesn't want to be seen as, you know, to blame for starvation in these pictures we're seeing on our TV, I'm not sure that there is real
pressure that would change his fundamental attitude toward Israel inside the United States.
We're not seeing the kind of political heat, for example, that Keir Starmer and Emmanuel Macron were feeling domestically and which led to them to talk
about recognizing the Palestinian state.
ANDERSON: You're making a really good point there. And it's interesting that Keir Starmer, under a lot of pressure, has announced that the U.K.
will unilaterally declare a Palestinian state, as have the French.
But there's a caveat with the U.K. It is unless Israel agrees to a ceasefire before the UNGA in September.
Are you hearing any evidence behind the scenes, as Donald Trump's administration clearly ratchets up the pressure on Israel whilst continuing
-- and rightly so, to, you know, call out the other party in all of this, which is Hamas -- Israel, of course, says Hamas is hardening its position
off the back of all of this.
What they call propaganda support by the French and Israel.
But are you hearing any talk behind the scenes as yet, as to whether there might, you know, what the levers might be, that the Trump administration
might use on Israel were we not to get a ceasefire any time soon?
Because at the moment, that does not look likely. And this catastrophe continues to unfold in Gaza.
COLLINSON: I haven't seen a great deal of evidence over the last few days in Washington that there is going to be a real change to the central issue
here. And that is that the U.S. has been unable to break the equation, of which it seems like Israel and Hamas aren't ready necessarily to stop
fighting.
And the U.S. has not been willing to use the leverage that it has on Israel, for example, or to prevail upon some of the Arab states to pressure
Hamas to change that equation.
And, you know, as you know, I'm quite skeptical that a lot of things that president Trump says, which appear to be changes of direction, not just on
Israel but, for example, on Ukraine, a lot of them don't end up being borne out with concentrated action from the administration.
Whether they just aren't inclined to put in the political capital or they don't really know what to do. They have a very inexperienced negotiating
team, both on Ukraine and Israel under Steve Witkoff, a real estate developer, who has no history of dealing with hardened negotiators like the
Israelis or the Russians.
So until there is some real evidence that the United States is actually making things happen behind the scenes, I think I'll be quite skeptical of
that. You did see this week in Asia that Trump administration used the carrot of the trade negotiations to almost force Thailand and Cambodia to
stop fighting and to move toward a peace deal.
That is a much simpler use of presidential pressure than what is required in Ukraine and Israel. That would require Trump to pay some political price
himself in terms of economic, you know, punishment, economic pain for the U.S. in terms of more sanctions on Russia.
Or just the political spectacle of breaking with the far right Israeli parties, which would be unpopular in some sectors of the Republican Party.
So Trump doesn't seem to be ready to pay the price to do what is needed to be done to shift some of these intractable international issues.
ANDERSON: Always a pleasure, sir. Thank you.
Well, a multifaith prayer vigil was held in New York on Tuesday for the four people killed in the Manhattan skyscraper shooting. New York's
governor and the city's mayor were among those in attendance.
While authorities learned of the gunman's grievances against the NFL and its handling of the brain disease CTE, they still want to know more about
his motive. CNN's Jason Carroll has the very latest on their search for answers in the gunman's hometown of Las Vegas.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JASON CARROLL, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Police thousands of miles away from the Manhattan crime scene positioned outside the shooter's Las
Vegas home as investigators try to learn as much as they can about Shane Tamura and his motive for carrying out the deadly attack.
The New York Police Department is sending two teams to Las Vegas ...
[10:25:00]
JESSICA TISCH, NEW YORK CITY POLICE COMMISSIONER: -- to conduct interviews and execute a search warrant at Mr. Tamura's home. They'll also visit the
gun store where he legally purchased a revolver on June 12th, using a Nevada concealed carry permit.
CARROLL (voice-over): Neighbors outside the suspect's home stunned to hear about what had happened.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's not something you really expect to see, so, yes, it's a real shock.
CARROLL (voice-over): The 27-year-old worked here at the Horseshoe Casino as a surveillance Department employee. Police have uncovered some of his
movements in the days before the shooting.
He left Las Vegas in his black BMW on July 26th; he traveled through Colorado; the next day, Nebraska and Iowa. Then on Monday, July 28th at
4:24 pm, he was in Columbia, New Jersey, before he entered New York City.
TISCH: Surveillance video shows a male exit a double parked black BMW on Park Avenue between 51st and 52nd Streets, carrying an M-4 rifle in his
right hand.
CARROLL (voice-over): As for his intended target, the early investigation suggests Tamura was headed to NFL headquarters at 345 Park Avenue but used
the wrong elevator bank.
These pictures obtained by CNN show some of what investigators found inside his car, including a nylon rifle case and a Ziploc bag filled with
ammunition. Police also recovered a revolver and Zoloft and antidepressant medication.
TISCH: According to our law enforcement partners in Las Vegas, Mr. Tamura has a documented mental health history.
CARROLL (voice-over): Police found a suicide note in his back pocket, where he alleges he suffered from CTE, a brain disease linked to repeated
head trauma.
The note saying, in part, "You can't go against the NFL. They'll squash you," adding, "Study my brain, please."
Tamura did not play in the NFL. He was once a promising high school football player in Southern California, described by a coach in a 2013
local newspaper article as lightning in a bottle. Studies have shown CTE in former football players, though it is more common in pro athletes.
MAYOR ERIC ADAMS (D-NY), NEW YORK CITY: The motives appear to be connected to the shooter's belief that he was suffering from CTE and he was an ex-NFL
player. Those items just don't pan out. He never played for the NFL. And so we're still unraveling this terrible shooting that took place in the city.
CARROLL (voice-over): Jason Carroll, CNN, New York.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
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ANDERSON (voice-over): Welcome back. You're watching CONNECT THE WORLD with me, Becky, Anderson, your headlines this hour.
[10:30:00]
Tsunami warnings and advisories are in force from Japan to Chile, all triggered by a massive earthquake in Russia's far east. Japan has now just
downgraded its tsunami warning to an advisory but it told more than 2 million people to get away from the coastlines.
British prime minister Keir Starmer says the U.K. will recognize Palestinian statehood in time for the U.N. General Assembly in September
unless Israel ends the war in Gaza and takes other steps to end what the -- what Keir Starmer calls the "appalling" situation there.
Well, National Football League's New York office will be closed until at least the end of next week following Monday's shooting that left four
people dead and one NFL employee seriously injured -- excuse me.
League commissioner Roger Goodell said that employee -- that employee is currently surrounded by his family and members of the NFL community.
ANDERSON: Well, seven more people have starved to death in Gaza in the last 24 hours, according to local officials. That brings the death toll
from starvation to 154, including 89 children.
International pressure is growing on Israel to alleviate the mass suffering. British prime minister Keir Starmer now says that the U.K. will
recognize Palestinian statehood at the U.N. General Assembly in September; that is, unless Israel -- and I quote him here -- "takes substantive steps
to end the appalling situation in Gaza and agrees to a ceasefire."
Mr. Starmer says Hamas also must be ready to make concessions.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KEIR STARMER, U.K. PRIME MINISTER: Meanwhile, our message to the terrorists of Hamas is unchanged and unequivocal. They must immediately
release all the hostages. Sign up to a ceasefire, disarm and accept that they will play no part in the government of Gaza.
And we'll make an assessment in September on how far the parties have met these steps. But no one should have a veto over our decision.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANDERSON: Well, my next guest is Husam Zomlot, who is the head of the Palestinian Mission to the United Kingdom. His cousin was just killed by
the Israeli military in Gaza, heading north to try to find food for his family.
Someone shared this photo of his cousin, writing, "Saeed told me his children were starving and he had no choice but to go north of Gaza in
search of food. I asked him to be careful. He went and never came back."
His son, Husam Zomlot, joins me now live today from the West Bank.
And it's good to have you, sir, and I am sorry for your loss.
Can you just tell us a little more about the experience of your family in Gaza?
HUSAM ZOMLOT, PALESTINIAN MISSION TO THE UNITED KINGDOM: Thank you. Becky. It's the experience of every family. My family is facing the exact same,
like every single Palestinian family in Gaza.
This is a forced starvation. It is a campaign and an act of eradication, of extermination, of annihilation. And Saeed was one.
Every day we follow, tens of people are killed as they are seeking food and aid, deliberately; their killers know what these people are. They are
desperate civilians in search of food for their children.
The situation in Gaza is simply -- no longer can be described in words. You cannot begin to choose the term to describe this evil, evil criminal
approach, where mass starvation, mass destruction, mass murder is being conducted, live streams in the world.
So may Saeed, my cousin, rest in peace and may all of our people rest in peace and power. And may this genocide end immediately and may the war
criminals be held to account.
ANDERSON: Husam, you have supported the move that we just reported by the United Kingdom, to set a deadline to unilaterally recognize a Palestinian
state, saying it, quote, "carries particular historical and moral weight."
But this is what the U.S. president says. Have a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: You could make the case that you're rewarding people that -- you know, you're rewarding Hamas if you do that. And I don't think they should
be rewarded.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANDERSON: What do you say to president Trump in response to that idea, that the U.K. is rewarding Hamas?
ZOMLOT: What Sir Keir Starmer, the U.K. prime minister, said himself in his announcement and his statement, that recognition of the state of
Palestine is not a gift. It's not a favor. It's not a reward, it's not a punishment but it is the inalienable right of the Palestinian people.
And it had a very long overdue right to be fulfilled, particularly by Britain.
[10:35:00]
And you know that Britain has something to do with this situation since the Colonial era and the Balfour declaration and promising our land without
consulting us and turning us, the native population, into just non-Jewish minorities, when in fact we were 96 percent of the population, owning 98
percent of the land and the properties.
So Britain has such a historic responsibility on what has befallen the Palestinian people. This deep century-old oppression, agony, targeting and
uprooting our people, from the nakba of 1948, where Britain was in mandate of Palestine and its historic responsibility, to make sure that Palestine
is prepared for statehood.
We were prepared for displacement and replacement and prepared for the nakba. So what Sir Keir Starmer did yesterday, what David Lammy, the
foreign secretary, did in the in the General Assembly at that podium, is nothing less than historic, a significant step in the right direction, the
beginning of correcting history.
The beginning of correcting this grave injustice that Britain has a responsibility to us. So it is absolutely meaningful and we intend to build
on it toward a --
(CROSSTALK)
ZOMLOT: -- of the kingdom.
ANDERSON: And you were just pointing out that the foreign minister, of course, echoing and the U.K. prime minister's words at the U.N. conference,
co-sponsored by France and Saudi over the past couple of days, on a future Palestinian state, on the -- on the future for a two-state solution.
I want to talk about that and the future of Hamas in this context of this conference. The declaration out of this summit says -- I'm just going to
read it to you unless you haven't seen it and I'm sure you probably have.
But for our viewers' sake as well, "Hamas must end its rule in Gaza and hand over its weapons to the Palestinian Authority, in line with the
objective of sovereign and independent -- a sovereign and independent Palestinian state."
It's worth noting a member of Hamas' political bureau said to CNN back in 2024 that the group would disarm if an independent state was established
with Jerusalem as the capital.
But the U.N. declaration seems to imply that that disarmament should be a step on the path toward a Palestinian state, not as a result of this. And
this declaration, signed on by Saudis, by Qatar, by Egypt. And so it goes on.
How likely do you believe Hamas is to heed this call, coming as it does now from Arab states, including Qatar and Saudi Arabia?
ZOMLOT: The true answer I don't know. However, we have a plan. And the plan has received the support and the consensus of, A, the Arab world and,
B, the international community, including the U.K.
The plan goes with and starts with a ceasefire. And there is a ceasefire proposal. As you know, Becky, a U.S. proposal that has been on the table
for more than 15 months, it has -- it has been respected for only a few weeks and every time for three times Netanyahu breaches -- breaks these
ceasefires.
And this plan that is now an Arab plan, Gaza will be -- will have one committee that will oversee the situation in Gaza, will provide for Gaza.
That committee is made of technocrats, not Hamas, not Fattah, not any political faction is there.
And then we move swiftly to the rebuilding of Gaza, to the enabling people to stay on their land and in their homes. And then we go straight into a
political horizon, a sort of path, where we implement the two-state solution.
This is -- this is the plan that we have right now. And Hamas, other than Hamas, any other group is a Palestinian-Palestinian conversation.
How do we do so?
There is a dialogue that is going on. There are mediators. And indeed all have to be in line with the Palestinian national legitimacy and
institutions.
ANDERSON: Right. And I just must ask you, before I let you go -- and thank you for persevering, because I know that, technically, this was a very
difficult interview to get up from where you are today.
How involved do you want to be in this reformed PA and this governance system going forward?
You know, what is your role going forward?
Do you want a leadership role?
ZOMLOT: Me, personally, you mean?
ANDERSON: Yes.
(LAUGHTER)
ANDERSON: Putting you on the spot.
ZOMLOT: The Arab -- you are -- the honor of my life is to be the voice and the ambassador and the representative of the greatest people that the
people of Palestine as such, historic moment. I wouldn't have dreamt of anything more. I wouldn't have wanted anything more except to be a
Palestinian representative in the U.K., in Britain.
And before it, you remember I was in Washington and ambassador to the U.S.
[10:40:00]
Now in London at this historic moment is the highest I can -- I can really aim for. And I really aim to continue. But I am nonetheless part of the
polity and part of the political system. And as an ambassador and as a member of the Palestine National Council and as which is the parliament of
the PLO and as a member of Fattah.
I am already part of the leadership.
ANDERSON: Yes, well, nobody's ruling, nobody's ruling out another role for you, Husam, I'm pretty sure about that. But as the consummate diplomat --
(LAUGHTER)
ANDERSON: -- I get your answer. And I thank you very much indeed for joining us. And I, you know, over the -- over the years that you and I have
been speaking, I really very much appreciate your time as ever, particularly over these past 21 months or so.
You and I have spoken on a regular basis. I appreciate it, thank you.
And we are back after this very quick break. Stay with us.
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(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
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ANDERSON: Let me return to the issue of Gaza. International pressure growing on Israel to stop the war there and allow in aid. But no signs yet
that the prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, is relenting.
Well, my next guests, Scottish MP Humza Yousaf and his wife, Nadia El- Nakla, are watching helplessly as their family members suffer in Gaza.
Humza posting on X, quote, "'I hate this world.' These words are from Nadia's cousin, Sally, who, alongside her four children, is being
deliberately starved in Gaza.
"Who can blame them?
"Everyone is watching this cruel inhumanity unfold. And yet, world leaders do nothing to help.
"I am sorry we failed you."
Humza Yousaf and Nadia El-Nakla joining me now from Dundee in Scotland, where Nadia is a city councilor.
Appreciate your time. Thank you very much indeed, both of you, for joining us.
And Nadia, I want to just start with you.
And if you will, can you just share a little bit more about what your family is enduring inside Gaza?
NADIA EL-NAKLA, PSYCHOTHERAPIST, POLITICAL ACTIVIST AND POLITICIAN: Yes. As you mentioned, my cousin, Sally, and her four children are being
starved. There are no access to food, to aid. There's no access to medicine. It's an extremely dire situation.
Unfortunately, we had terrible news that my father's cousin, who's 44, Mahmoud, he was killed trying to find food. He was shot in the stomach. And
then a tank actually ran over him.
[10:45:00]
So he passed away, leaving two children.
The situation is extremely dangerous. If they're not being killed through starvation, they're being killed by bombing and other tactics. It's just --
it's really heartbreaking.
ANDERSON: Yes, I understand.
Humza, let's discuss the new U.K. position, then. His foreign secretary, David Lammy at the U.N.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DAVID LAMMY, BRITISH FOREIGN SECRETARY: And so it is with the hand of history on our shoulders that His Majesty's government therefore intends to
recognize the state of Palestine when the U.N. General Assembly gathers in September here in New York.
Friends, we will do this unless the Israeli government acts to end the appalling situation in Gaza, ends its military campaign and commits to a
long, sustainable peace based on a two-state solution. Our demands on Hamas also remain absolute and unwavering.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANDERSON: Nadia, just listening to you, I'm so sorry about your loss. And, of course, this announcement is going to come too late for so many of your
family in Gaza.
Humza, what chance is there, do you believe, having listened to Lammy's position there -- we've heard the same thing from the U.K. prime minister -
- what do you believe is the chance of Israel responding to that ultimatum and ending the war before UNGA, the U.N. General Assembly meets in
September?
And how do you respond to that announcement from the U.K.?
HUMZA YOUSAF, FORMER FIRST MINISTER OF SCOTLAND: Well, let me take the questions in reverse order.
I thought the statement was good until the word "unless," because the right to statehood is an inalienable right of the Palestinian people. The
statement should have been irreversible and unequivocal. It shouldn't be dependent on the actions of the occupying force.
And, of course, Israel, under international law, is the occupying force. So the statement should have been made that the statehood, Palestinian
statehood, would be recognized.
And then to answer your second question, it -- will that in itself stop Israel's relentless massacre, deliberate starvation?
No.
But what might have heaped pressure is if the U.K. government and other international leaders, who have so miserably failed the people of Gaza in
the last 21 months, if they came forward with meaningful economic and trade sanctions and for the U.K. to maybe stop selling arms to Israel that are
committing such heinous crimes.
That has led to the prime minister of Israel being wanted by the International Criminal Court for crimes against humanity.
ANDERSON: Well, you're right to point out that the policy changes that so many seek -- and you have called for a complete arms embargo, for example,
on Israel -- are not policy changes that are being announced at present.
The changes are these unilateral declarations of a Palestinian state; caveat: in the U.K.'s position, you know, a ceasefire by September.
Nadia, Israel and the U.S. say that this international pressure is actually only strengthening Hamas.
Netanyahu saying a, quote, "jihadist state on Israel's border today will threaten Britain tomorrow."
We've heard Trump say that these declarations of a Palestinian state reward Hamas. Israel says it hardens its position.
I wonder from both of you -- let's start with Nadia -- what your response is to that?
EL-NAKLA: My response, first and foremost, is that Keir Starmer is no friend of the Palestinians. At a time when we have children dying of
starvation, enforced by Israel, these people don't care about the political arguments. This is a smokescreen.
You should be talking about how you get aid into Gaza by breaking down those borders immediately, not trying to convince the Palestinian people
that you're empathetic and sympathetic to our cause by giving us the permission to exist and recognizing our existence.
I am not here to talk about politics and big men playing big politics. This is about people's lives. These are children and the world is failing them.
And every hour that passes, more are dying. And yet we're blindsided by this talk of maybe we'll recognize a Palestinian state.
ANDERSON: And no ceasefire in sight at this point --
(CROSSTALK)
EL-NAKLA: -- told me today -- my cousin told me today there's no ceasefire. We're, you know, it's from every angle. We can't get any aid.
There's no aid since the announcement and there is no ceasefire.
Humza, Israel's ambassador to the United Nations, told Sky News.
[10:50:00]
Quote, "All those declarations and the empty speeches and conferences that we are seeing in the U.N., they will not bring any progress to the region."
Whether you agree with Danny Danon's motives for criticizing this move, do you believe he has a point?
I mean, what's your response to the argument that moves like this are empty gestures, diplomatic window dressing, for example?
YOUSAF: Well, it's fascinating, because that is just an absolute admission of the impunity that Israel has to carry out the worst massacres. I mean, I
can't remember seeing such devastating scenes ever in my life; manmade, deliberate mass starvation of a population.
And, of course, the killing of tens of thousands of innocent people that has been live streamed for the last 21 months. And what Israel are saying -
- and remember, Israel is led by a man wanted by the International Criminal Court for war crimes.
What they're saying is we have impunity. And so this, ultimately, to answer the question, the only thing that I think is going to stop Israel is if
they feel the pressure in the way that the apartheid South African government felt the pressure in the 1980s and '90s.
And that will be through isolation and treating Israel as a pariah state, as a rogue state, as it currently is under the Netanyahu government. That
means sanctions; certainly means stopping selling arms to such a country, that making sure that Israel feels the pressure economically and in terms
of international isolation.
ANDERSON: To both of you at this point -- and we've heard, you know, in the declaration from this meeting in the -- in the U.S., signed on by, you
know, Qatar and Egypt and Saudi, that Hamas is going to need to lay down their arms. And they're not going to play a role in governance going
forward.
I mean, how much blame ultimately do you put at the door of Hamas, October 7th, now and going forward?
I mean, what is your position?
Nadia, let me let me start with you.
EL-NAKLA: My position is that, right now, I don't see the point in talking about governance of Gaza. Gaza is rubble. Gaza has no infrastructure
whatsoever. So when you're talking about the future governance of Gaza, to me is an absolute waste of time when you should be focusing on the real
humanitarian issues.
YOUSAF: Look, look, from my perspective on that question, it's very, very clear to me that the people to blame are the ones that are dropping bombs
on the heads of the people of Gaza.
The people to blame are the ones that are sending their snipers to shoot children in the head. The ones to blame are those that are deliberately
stopping aid from coming in. And the trickle that is coming in, then gunning down and massacring those who end up queuing for food.
The ones to blame are those who have killed more journalists in this conflict than any other conflict in the last two decades. The ones to blame
are the ones who are systematically killing healthcare workers. Those are the people to blame in terms of Hamas.
Look, there's no reasonable minded person that does anything other than condemn the actions of October 7th. And Hamas themselves, as you said, I
think in your previous segment, have agreed to the Arab plan, which means that they would step back and not be part of a future governance of Gaza.
But as Nadia is completely right; when you're talking about the governance of Gaza, what is left of Gaza?
And if there's not an immediate ceasefire, if aid is not allowed back in, if a rebuild effort cannot happen because Israel continues to attack and
dismantle and destroy Gaza, then what on Earth is left to govern?
ANDERSON: I mean, there is almost unanimous international agreement that Gaza needs to be flooded with aid at this point. And the idea of a
ceasefire is to ensure that that surge happens and happens quickly.
There have been various promises about what can happen in the interim. It hasn't happened. And whether the GHF is working or not. And you know how
effective the U.N. mechanisms are without security and support from Israeli troops.
I want to ask you, Nadia, in touch with your family there and you're very - - and understandably very specific in wanting to focus specifically on getting food aid medicine, you know, stuff that is going to keep people
alive.
And ultimately allow people to genuinely feel like they've got a life and a future, at least as far as their food and, you know, access to some
normality is concerned, what does that look like?
I mean, we talk about, you know, flour; we talk about, you know, aid, which means food packages, ofttimes from the, you know, WFP.
What are your -- what are your family telling you that they need most and now?
EL-NAKLA: They need food and they need it to be distributed by organizations that are professionally capable to do so.
[10:55:00]
My cousin told me yesterday that one banana costs $20 and they don't have any cash machines. So even if I send her $20, she can't take out cash to
buy a banana. You know, these are real issues that cannot be quickly fixed.
And you have starving people unable to distribute food. It's survival of the fittest, almost. So you need aid but you need it distributed
appropriately. She needs food like, you know, when, you know, when you were talking there about all the issues that are facing Gaza.
Like, for me, predominantly, what I find so difficult is I feel it's an extermination of a people, of my people. And it's so difficult to watch.
And, you know, this is the real reality, that you could have no more Palestinians in Gaza, no more Palestinians in the West Bank. And that's my
biggest fear.
But right now just send food, send food and send just organizations that can do it as soon as possible.
ANDERSON: Nadia, Humza, thank you for joining us.
And that is it for CONNECT THE WORLD today. Stay with CNN. "ONE WORLD" is up next. We'll see you same time, same place tomorrow.
END
