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Senators to Grill RFK Jr. on Health Policy. Aired 10-11a ET
Aired September 04, 2025 - 10:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[09:58:29]
(MUSIC PLAYING)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice-over): This is CNN breaking news.
BECKY ANDERSON, CNN HOST (voice-over): Well, welcome to the second hour of the show from our Middle East programming headquarters. I'm Becky Anderson
in Abu Dhabi, where the time is just after 6:00 in the evening.
And we are waiting any minute now for Robert F. Kennedy Jr. to speak in front of a Senate committee in Washington about his actions as Department
of Health and Human Services secretary. And I'm going to get you to Capitol Hill when that happens.
First, though, I just want to get you up to date on our breaking news this hour. Italian fashion designer Giorgio Armani has died. His elegant designs
graced red carpets for years, of course, from power suits to couture gowns. And his luxury design house became a multibillion dollar business.
Giorgio Armani was 91 years old. And CNN will bring you more on his life and legacy throughout the day.
Well, let's focus now on what is happening this hour on Capitol Hill, as we expect this Senate Finance Committee hearing to begin any moment with the
U.S. Health and Human Services secretary, Robert F. Kennedy Jr., under scrutiny over his vaccine policies and the resulting chaos at the Centers
for Disease Control and Prevention.
Well, ahead of the hearing, a quick reminder about just who America's top health official is. Robert F. Kennedy Jr. or RFK Jr. has no formal medical
training but a long history of opposition to vaccines.
Since becoming health secretary, he has orchestrated the firing of the CDC director just weeks after she was confirmed by the Senate.
[10:00:04]
Purged top government vaccine experts and canceled research funding on some potential life-saving vaccines. Here's a look at what he's said about
vaccines over the past few years.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROBERT F. KENNEDY JR., SECRETARY, DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES: There's no vaccine that is safe and effective.
The pollen (ph) article suggests that Blacks need fewer antigens.
The Spanish flu was vaccine-induced flu. The deaths were vaccine-induced.
COVID-19, it's targeted to attack Caucasians and Black people. The people who are most immune are Ashkenazi Jews and Chinese.
They get measles because the vaccine wanes. The vaccines wane about 4.8 percent per year.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANDERSON: Well, CNN medical correspondent Meg Tirrell back with us this hour.
We're also joined by Corey Brettschneider, a political science professor at Brown and co-host of The Oath and The Office podcast.
It's good to have you both on board. I want to step back for a moment. Just explain a couple of things before we get the gavel on the Hill.
Meg, just walk us through how we got to this point.
MEG TIRRELL, CNN MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, you know, health secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr. has been shaking up the federal health agency since
he got into the job as the top health policy leader in the United States.
You know, from the CDC, the earliest days, stopping communications, halting research activities. But then firing a massive number of people as part of
a major reorganization, the Department of Health and Human Services, up to 10,000 people and another 10,000 who they say left through other means.
And, of course, shaking up vaccine policy and oversight, replacing the entire outside panel of advisers to the CDC on vaccines, 17 members who
were serving on that panel and who were experts in various aspects of public health, replacing them with seven people, some of whom have
expressed anti-vaccine rhetoric and continue to.
That panel is incredibly influential. And actually, there will be a lot of focus on it today because the secretary is expected to add additional
members to that panel.
And in just a couple of weeks on September 18th, that panel is expected to meet again and to take votes that will have direct implications for
childhood vaccines. And so there have been calls from both sides of the aisle, including Republican senator Bill Cassidy, to postpone that meeting,
to have more oversight of what's going on with that panel.
And then, of course, as you said last week, the CDC director getting fired, this was the CDC director who was nominated by president Trump, confirmed
by this Senate. And so people on both sides of the aisle will have questions about the person they were asked to vote for -- and they did --
getting ousted, Becky.
ANDERSON: Yes, this is fascinating.
He has arrived on the Hill and just ahead of the gavel.
Corey, the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services has a $3.2 trillion budget.
How much power does RFK Jr. have over the U.S. public health?
COREY BRETTSCHNEIDER, POLITICAL SCIENCE PROFESSOR, BROWN UNIVERSITY; CO- HOST, THE OATH AND THE OFFICE PODCAST: Well, massive. His portfolio includes a number of different agencies that have to do with research, have
to do with the approval of vaccines.
And so someone who is devoted to his own conspiracy theories and really is hostile to science is extremely dangerous in this position and can affect
the public health of the United States going forward.
It's so bad that the some of the scientists who have resigned say you can no longer trust the federal government because some many of the guidelines
and messages are coming from -- not from scientists, not from the kind of committees that you just heard about but from somebody who is not a trained
scientist.
And we can't say this enough. This is somebody who's a lawyer but he's not a PhD in any scientific discipline. He's not a doctor. And yet he thinks he
can read things in a way that overturns and disregards the scientific consensus of the moment. He claims that he wants to make America healthy
again. But something else.
ANDERSON: Yes, this is MAHA, Make America Healthy Again.
Would it be fair to say that he's got complete disdain for science and scientists?
BRETTSCHNEIDER: Absolutely.
We've been talking on The Oath and the Office podcast about two assaults on our democracy. One is the disregarding of the president's pledge to
preserve, protect and defend the Constitution.
But part of that is a separate obligation to tell the truth. The country relies for its information on experts. And what you're seeing from RFK Jr.
is a war on expertise.
[10:05:00]
That's why I think each of these stories, as important as they are, have to be tied together by really the disregarding of truth. That's what we're
seeing.
And so one thing that you're hearing from some of those who resigned is that we need a new kind of consensus that will provide guidelines to inform
doctors.
For instance, coalitions, professional doctors or scientists themselves or even the states, we've talked about, having separate recommendations and
guidelines from the federal government.
But you know, the federal government, the bottom line is, aside from the information flows, which is so important, has control and power over
things, like which vaccines are going to be covered by insurance.
And when you have a conspiracy theorist who has long claimed that autism is caused by vaccines, despite no scientific evidence for these claims, that's
dangerous. And policy will start to be informed not by science, not by truth, not by expertise but by bias.
ANDERSON: Thank you.
Meg, let's just home in on one of these issues.
What's going on in Florida with their vaccine mandates?
And are any of these decisions to the point that we've just been making based on scientific facts?
And if so, what are they?
TIRRELL: Well, in Florida, there was an announcement yesterday that shocked the entire public health world, where the governor and the surgeon
general said that they are going to work to end any vaccine requirements, any mandates, including for school children to go to public schools.
So all 50 states have requirements for, if you're going to go to public school, you have to be protected against a certain number of different
diseases, from diphtheria to polio to measles, mumps and rubella. So these are things that all 50 states require.
All 50 states have medical exemption allowances and most have religious or personal belief exemptions as well.
In Florida, there's about a 5.1 percent rate of having at least one medical or religious or personal exemption to a vaccine, which is higher than the
national average. But there's a lot of concern over what's going to happen when they remove this mandate.
ANDERSON: Yes.
All right. Well, the instructions are being given now. Let's get you and our viewers to the Senate floor.
(JOINED IN PROGRESS)
SEN. MIKE CRAPO (R-ID): -- disease and promoting prevention first. I look forward to exploring ways that the federal government can further align
payment incentives to support healthy living and fight chronic disease.
The administration has also prioritized efforts to end waste, fraud and abuse in our federal health care programs, including through eligibility
and enrollment verification.
This critical work is not just about saving taxpayer dollars; it's about restoring trust and ensuring vital programs like Medicare and Medicaid are
sustainable for generations to come.
In July, the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid services -- CMS -- announced that the agency identified 2.8 million Americans who were simultaneously
enrolled in Medicaid or Affordable Care Act exchange plans.
Stopping this duplicate enrollment while working with states to ensure that individuals do not inappropriately lose coverage has the potential to save
taxpayers $14 billion annually.
CMS has also taken steps to provide states with additional immigration information to verify eligibility for federal health care programs,
preserving lifelines like Medicaid for those who are legally entitled under the law, will ensure long-term sustainability.
Congress has bolstered these efforts by passing the one big, beautiful bill. This bill enacts common sense reforms to reduce improper payments and
brings needed personal accountability to the Medicaid program.
These reforms will protect Medicaid and refocus the program on the most vulnerable patients, those whom the program was intended to serve.
The OEBA (ph) also created the Rural Health Transformation Program, the single largest investment in rural health care in decades, to help
stabilize and modernize the rural health delivery system throughout our country.
These accomplishments reflect a vision for a health care system that is proactive, efficient and patient centered. While many of the issues
discussed today may be partisan in nature, this committee has a deep history of bipartisan health care accomplishments.
I remain committed to partnering with this administration and Ranking Member Wyden to enact policies that realign incentives in the prescription
drug supply chain, expand access to telehealth and ensure long term stability in our physician payment system.
[10:10:00]
Mr. Secretary, I look forward to hearing from you today about the administration's efforts to make America healthy again and how we can
continue to work together to achieve this shared goal. Thank you very much.
Senator Wyden.
SEN. RON WYDEN (D-OR), RANKING MEMBER, FINANCE COMMITTEE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
As the committee gathers today, the United States is in the midst of a health care calamity, the largest cuts to American health care in the
history of our nation. And they are approaching like an avalanche.
Last week, most of the senior leadership at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention were fired. Or they resigned after refusing to bow to Robert
Kennedy's unceasing crusade against vaccines.
I traveled across Oregon last month and the message was the same from one end of the state to the other. Families are confused. They're scared about
who to trust, about their health care.
Robert Kennedy and Donald Trump have done so much to feed that mistrust. This morning, my staff, in partnership with Senator Alsobrooks' team, is
releasing a report that shows the disaster of Robert Kennedy's 203 days in office.
Every single day, there's been an action that endangers the health and wellness of American families. Robert Kennedy has elevated conspiracy
theorists, crackpots and grifters to make life-or-death decisions about the health care of the American people.
Robert Kennedy's tenure is so far marked by three calling cards.
One is chaos at federal health agencies, leaving families, doctors and the entire nation confused and frightened.
Corruption that benefits Robert Kennedy, Donald Trump and their friends at the expense of taxpayers and higher health costs for families.
I ask unanimous consent, Mr. Chairman, to enter this report into the record.
CRAPO: Without objection.
WYDEN: Then there's chaos. It's been obvious from the start that Robert Kennedy's primary interest is to take vaccines away from Americans. During
his confirmation process, he claimed to be pro safety and pro science.
But his actions reveal a steadfast commitment to elevating junk science and fringe conspiracies. His agenda has not been about choices and information
for families.
Just last week, he threatened doctors that deviated from the new anti- science vaccine guidelines he released that make it harder for pregnant women and children to get the COVID vaccine.
And then there's corruption. Robert Kennedy's bizarre statements and actions beg the question why Democrats on this committee answered that
question months ago. Robert Kennedy can enrich himself and his allies. His family still stands to gain from class action lawsuits against vaccine
makers.
Now Robert Kennedy fired every member, every single one of the group responsible for making vaccine recommendations to doctors across the
country under the false pretense of conflicts of interest.
Meanwhile, many of the new members of the panel are outright vaccine deniers who have appeared as paid witnesses in lawsuits against vaccine
makers. Their conflicts of interest and ethics disclosures remain hidden under lock and key.
On top of all this bedlam in American health care, just two months ago, Donald Trump signed into law the largest health care cuts in American
history to pay for tax breaks for the wealthiest people in massive corporations in our country.
Republicans know these cuts are going to hit communities like a wrecking ball. That's why they pushed the most severe cuts until after the election.
That's why their members already introduced bills to roll back some of the cuts.
Make no mistake, though, those cuts are being felt right now. We're seeing hospitals in Idaho cutting payments, hospitals and nursing homes.
Providence Seaside Hospital in Oregon announced they're shutting down their labor and delivery unit. Every family is going to feel the burden of Trump
care in America.
Premiums are going to spike next year, especially for those who buy health insurance on their own. But the effects will be felt by those who get
insurance also through an employer.
Congress has an opportunity to extend the Affordable Care Act tax credits that lower the cost of premiums. Democrats are ready to pass an extension
that stops the dramatic premium spike that would force many families to pay double what they do today.
Instead of finding ways to help American families pay less for health care, Robert Kennedy is focused on his anti-vaccine mission, fueled by some kind
of complex that the consequences be damned.
[10:15:00]
Amid this litany of corruption and chaos, the one point I have to underline is Robert Kennedy puts children in harm's way every single day in America.
To my Republican colleagues, I must ask, what line must Robert Kennedy cross before some of you will also join this alarm?
This weekend, under the cover of darkness, Robert Kennedy attempted to disappear hundreds of children under his care at office of refugee
resettlement facilities. These children here, without parents or family, were rounded up in the middle of the night and put on planes to Guatemala.
Lawyers on the ground described unthinkable scenes. Our staff, some who are here today, were party to this in the middle of the night.
And one child said to their lawyer, "Why do they want to send me back?
"My mom is dead and my dad abuses me. Why do they want to hurt me?"
This was an actual conversation. These actions were illegal. Documents show that many of these children were in the country to escape trafficking in
their homeland.
Mr. Kennedy calls himself a protector of children, some kind of rich claim, claiming from somebody who's flown on Jeffrey Epstein's private jet on
multiple occasions. I don't think Robert Kennedy should be within a million miles of this job.
Republicans on the committee had a chance to prevent the public health train wreck that Mr. Kennedy has engineered. Everyone voted for him.
It is in the country's best interest that Robert Kennedy step down. And if he doesn't, Donald Trump should fire him before more people are hurt by his
reckless disregard for science and the truth.
I also would like to note Senator Cantwell has joined us in this effort.
I hope, at the very least, Robert Kennedy has the decency to tell the truth this morning.
Mr. President -- excuse me -- Mr. Chairman. I have a procedural request I'd like to make at this time. It's a short one.
CRAPO: Proceed.
WYDEN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Chairman, it's unfortunate that I have to say this but this is a witness who has lied to members of the Senate Finance Committee in response
to over 35 written questions, including from me.
He said and I quote, that he would "do nothing as HHS secretary that makes it difficult or discourages people from taking vaccines."
That was clearly not true. His unprecedented, unilateral actions to restrict access to COVID vaccines, that alone proves it. He tried to fire
the Senate-approved CDC director after she chose the truth over what I consider his delusions.
His prepared testimony even today includes the debunked lie that half a million children disappeared under the Biden administration's watch, a lie
that the Trump administration is using as a pretext to hunt immigrant children and their families.
So my request, Mr. Chairman -- and I think it is unfortunate that I have to do this -- but given the unprecedented nature of the witness' behavior, I
would ask now that the committee formally swear in Robert Kennedy as a witness.
CRAPO: Senator Wyden, I will personally object and will reject your request. We will treat this witness as we treat all of the other
administration witnesses who come before us.
And let me just say again, as I said in my opening remarks, we will have some partisan disagreements today. We're having partisan disagreements
right now. And I am having partisan disagreements with you on your characterization of the facts. The bottom line is we will let the secretary
make his own case in his opening statement.
WYDEN: I'll only say, Mr. Chairman, that this committee's unwillingness to swear this witness is basically a message that it is acceptable to lie to
the Senate Finance Committee about hugely important questions like vaccines.
I think that's a great mistake and that's why I've made the request. I understand that, if you're not going to grant it, we can move on.
CRAPO: We'll get to the bottom of your accusations.
But at this point, I'm going to turn to our witness, the Secretary of Health and Human Services, Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
And Mr. Kennedy, Mr. Secretary, you may make your opening statement at this time.
KENNEDY: Thank you, Chairman Crapo.
And thank you, Ranking Member Wyden, for the invitation to appear before the committee today.
Before I summarize what we've accomplished this year at HHS, I want to express my deepest condolences to the family of Dekalb County police
officer David Rose, who gave his life to stop the gunfire attack on the CDC on August 8th. Officer Rose was a veteran.
He was a husband and the father of two children. Officer Rose's widow, whom I visited, is expecting their third child.
[10:20:00]
I'd like Officer Rose's family to know that he remains in our prayers and that he will continue to be in our thoughts.
Let me start with the big picture. Under President Trump's leadership, we at HHS are enacting a once in a generation shift from a sick care system to
a true healthcare system that tackles the root causes of chronic disease.
Chronic diseases reach crisis proportions in our country. And, finally, we have an administration that is taking action.
The MAHA report assessment, which the White House released in May, was the first government analysis to the key drivers of childhood chronic disease,
ultra-processed foods, chemical exposures, physical inactivity and overmedicalization.
This month, we will follow with the MAHA report strategy, the Trump administration solution for addressing each cause. At HHS, we haven't just
been writing reports. We have been the busiest, most proactive administration in HHS history.
In just half a year, we've taken on food dyes, baby formula contamination, the GRAS loophole, fluoride in our drinking water, gas station heroin,
electronic cigarettes, drug prices, prior authorization, information blocking.
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It takes over three months to get prior authorization.
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Senator Kennedy --
CRAPO: The committee will come to order.
(OFF MIKE COMMENTS)
CRAPO: I apologize to you for that outburst, Secretary Kennedy.
I would notify everyone else in the audience, comments from the audiences, our audience, are inappropriate. If there are any further disruptions, the
committee will recess until the police can restore order.
Mr. Secretary, please proceed.
KENNEDY: As I was saying, prior authorization, information blocking and healthcare interoperability, we are ending in a function research, child
mutilation and reducing animal testing.
We are addressing cell phone use in schools, excessive screen time for youth, the lack of nutrition education in our medical schools, sickle cell
anemia, hepatitis C, the East Palestine Chemical spill and many, many others.
At FDA, we are now on track to approve more drugs this year than at any time in history. I'm also proud to say that HHS under President Trump is
doing more with less. We have taken measures to fight waste, fraud and abuse. Just by eliminating duplicative enrollments in CMS, we are saving
taxpayers $14 billion a year.
Meanwhile, we are expanding access for people who need it. We are ending races, diversity, equity and inclusion practices and instead focusing on
aiding low income and vulnerable families regardless of their race, which was the original intent of Title 10.
We're also pouring a billion dollars into Headstart and the administration for children and families. Compassion need not be the casualty of
efficiency.
I'd like to highlight some issues that have not gotten media attention. First, we are doing our part to fill the president's commitment to stop
human trafficking, especially of children.
We inherited a terrible humanitarian crisis from the previous administration with its open border policies, which allowed the appalling
loss of 476,000 unaccompanied children. We have implemented policies now to ensure that that appalling tragedy can never happen again.
We have knocked on 82,000 doors and located 22,000 of those children. I promise you that we will do more in the next three years.
We are also addressing the disastrous health conditions in tribal communities on Native American reservations. I've met face-to-face with
tribal leaders in dozens of communities and tribes in Alaska, Arizona, Idaho, New Mexico and elsewhere. And I look forward to making HHS resources
more available to those communities.
One of the most significant initiatives under President Trump is the Rural Health Transformation Fund, part of the president's big, beautiful Bill,
which will provide the greatest investment of federal money into rural healthcare in history.
Finally, I would like to address the reason shakeups at CDC.
[10:25:03]
These changes were absolutely necessary adjustments to restore the agency to its role as the world's gold standard public health agency with a
central mission of protecting Americans from chronic -- from infectious disease.
CDC failed that responsibility miserably during COVID when its disastrous and nonsensical policies destroyed small businesses, violated civil
liberties, closed our schools, caused generational damage in doing so, masked infants with no science and heightened economic inequality.
And yet all those oppressive and unscientific interventions failed to do anything about the disease itself.
America is home to 4.2 percent of the world's population, yet we had nearly 20 percent of the COVID deaths. We literally did worse than any country in
the world. And the people at CDC who oversaw that process, who put masks on our children, who closed our schools, are the people who will be leaving.
And that's why we need bold, competent and creative new leadership at CDC, people who are able and willing to chart a new course. As my father once
said, progress is a nice word. Change is its motivator.
And change has its enemies. That's why we need new blood at CDC. That's also why it's imperative that we remove officials with conflicts of
interest and catastrophically bad judgment and political agendas.
We need unbiased, politics-free, transparent, evident-based science in the public interest. Those are the guiding principles behind the changes at the
CDC and that is what you can expect all across our agency for the next three years.
CRAPO: Thank you very much, Mr. Secretary.
I'll begin with the questioning. And one of the first things I'd like to talk to you about is actually something that is under the auspices of CMS.
And I spoke with Dr. Oz last night about this. I'm sure you're very familiar with it though and that is that in the, one big, beautiful bill,
there's all there's a lot of attacks right now going on publicly about hospitals are in trouble.
And the blame for that is placed on the bill, even though the bill hasn't even been implemented yet.
The fact is this committee held hearings on the troubles that rural hospitals are facing in the United States before the passage of the one
big, beautiful bill. They've been facing difficulties in rural America for a number of years now.
And the bill, the one big, beautiful bill contained a Rural Health Transformation Program, which I would just like to ask you to comment on.
This is the program which allocated $50 billion over the next five years to our rural community hospitals in the United States to help them deal with
some of the financial crises that they are facing and transition to more stability.
Could you comment on that program that is in the one big, beautiful bill?
KENNEDY: Yes, Senator. One of President Trump's campaign promises and one of the principal preoccupations, not only of Republican senators when I did
my confirmation hearing, but also almost equally among Democratic senators with this crisis in rural health, we've had 120 rural hospitals closed over
the past 10 years.
These institutions are not just delivering health access to rural Americans but they're economic centers. They're cultural centers for those
communities. They are often the largest employer. They are the highest paying jobs and they are the centerpiece for those communities. So, when
they die, the communities collapse.
And President Trump promised to do something about that and he has delivered on that promise. Right now, we spend about 6 percent of Medicaid
funding is sent to rural hospitals, a very, very tiny slice and that's one of the reasons they're in trouble.
President Trump has now allocated through the one big, beautiful bill of $50 billion, so $10 billion a year over the next five years.
What we give to rural hospitals, that 6 percent represents $19 billion a year, so we're increasing that by $10 billion. So, we're infusing more than
50 percent increase in the amount of money that is going to rural communities over the next five years.
There's never been anything like that in history. It is the biggest investment and it should stem this hemorrhage.
CRAPO: Well, thank you. And I appreciate your, your giving clarity to that.
[10:30:00]
Because it is frustrating to see these continuous allegations that the difficulties that our rural hospitals are facing.
All were created in the last few months when we passed a bill, when we've been holding hearings in this committee about these problems.
And in the bill that we passed, we gave a $50 billion boost to, as you indicated, increased by 50 percent the federal support for our community,
rural hospitals in the United States.
And I think that the hospital owners understand that. They recognize this support. In fact, they are coming very -- they're coming together very
carefully with Dr. Oz to work on the rollout of this program so that we can see this boost and this support that is coming.
Just another one of the disagreements we have about what really was in the one big beautiful bill. So I appreciate you commenting on that.
In the last few -- in the last minute and 10 seconds that I have with you, could you just quickly talk once again about the broad issue of making
America healthy again?
In terms of our aim to change the healthcare system's focus from a reactive symptom management model to one that focuses on lifestyle choices and the
root causes of chronic disease?
KENNEDY: Yes, Senator. You know, this morning, I got the latest numbers from CDC, that 76.4 percent of Americans now have a chronic disease. This
is stunning.
When my uncle was president was 11 percent, 1950, it was 3 percent, a 76.4 percent, 85 -- 8 out of 10 of our kids cannot qualify for military service.
This is a national security issue. When my uncle was president, we spent zero on chronic disease.
Today we spend $1.3 trillion. It's the biggest cause. It's increasing. And all of the arguments that Republicans and Democrats have about single
payer, Obamacare or with various ways of allocate the health , they're all like rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic.
If we don't end this chronic disease -- we are the sickest country in the world. That's why we have to fire people at CDC. They did not do their job.
This was their job to keep us healthy.
CRAPO: Thank you, Mr. --
KENNEDY: And I need to fire some of those people to make sure this doesn't happen again.
CRAPO: Thank you, Mr. Secretary. I have to cut myself off to make sure I keep to this timeframe, too.
Senator Wyden.
WYDEN: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
I've made it clear, I think that Secretary Kennedy is dead set on making it harder for children to get vaccines and that kids are going to die because
of it. And, Mr. Chairman, I'd like to put in the record today an op-ed written by Susan Monarez, who was fired by Mr. Kennedy.
CRAPO: Without objection.
WYDEN: So what we know. And Dr. Monarez, you know, was approved by Republicans. She wrote an op-ed today in "The Wall Street Journal," which
I've just put in the record.
And I quote her, she said, "I was told to pre-approve the recommendations of a vaccine advisory panel newly filled with people who have publicly
expressed anti-vaccine rhetoric."
So this is not some liberal philosopher or something.
This is the CDC director who tells "The Wall Street Journal," which is not exactly interested in progressive, you know, theories and the like, that
she was told to pre-approved the recommendations of a vaccine advisory panel filled with people who've publicly expressed anti-vaccine rhetoric.
So my first question, Mr. Secretary, is, did you in fact do what Director Monarez said you did, which is tell her to just go along with vaccine
recommendations even if she didn't think such recommendations aligned with scientific evidence?
KENNEDY: No, I did not.
WYDEN: That's a yes or no. So you have an opportunity to call her a liar if you say that you didn't do it but I'd like to see you respond to this.
KENNEDY: Yes. No, I did not say that to her.
WYDEN: You did not?
KENNEDY: And I never had a private meeting with her. Other witnesses to every meeting that we have and all of those witnesses will say, I never
said that.
WYDEN: So she's lying today to the American people in "The Wall Street Journal"?
KENNEDY: Yes, sir.
WYDEN: OK. Let's talk now about what's coming up. Because I've made it clear what I've thought about the 203, you know, days with my colleagues,
Senator Alsobrooks. In two weeks, CDC's Advisory Committee on immunization practices will meet to make decisions about critical vaccines that protect
us against Hepatitis B, measles and more.
The committee's got a profound impact on vaccine access but these aren't ordinary meetings. You've stacked the deck to ensure the panel benefits
bends to your views.
[10:35:04]
In June, you fired all 17 committee members who were respected scientists and doctors. You replaced them with non-experts, vaccine skeptics and
conspiracy theorists.
As a result, this critical advisory panel has scientific credibility after years colleagues, we spend so much time not looking at this as Democrats
and Republicans but as good science and scientific, you know, credibility.
And now, the American Academy of Pediatrics has warned that the committee is being politicized at the expense of children's health.
American Academy of Pediatrics, you think they're lying too?
KENNEDY: I think the American Academy of Pediatrics is gravely conflicted. They get very -- their biggest contributors are the four largest vaccine
makers. They run a journal pediatrics, which they make a lot of money on. That is completely dependent on pharmaceutical companies.
So I don't think -- I wouldn't put a big stake in what they say that benefits pharmaceutical interest.
Senator, I didn't politicize ACIP. I depoliticized it. The Congress has been investigating ACIP --
WYDEN: But all over the country, Mr. Secretary, scientists and doctors are saying otherwise, they're all wrong too?
They're all lying, according to you?
KENNEDY: The scientists and doctors are supporting me all over the country. There is divisional on opinion.
WYDEN: I don't get letters from thousands of people who are not political saying that this set of changes is going to damage American healthcare and
particularly these healthcare agencies for decades to come. I don't get any letters from people saying people he's going to make a big difference
forever.
KENNEDY: And maybe you're listening to a selective group of people.
WYDEN: Well, you get me some.
KENNEDY: Yes. And I will-
WYDEN: Fine.
KENNEDY: I will tell you what, Senator.
WYDEN: I got 30 seconds.
KENNEDY: I'll put my mail bag against your mail bag any day of the week.
WYDEN: I got 30 seconds. Dangerous respiratory viruses like RSV are on the agenda for the next advisory meeting. Countless parents have been awakened
in the dead of night by a wheezing kid, gasping for air, forced to rush their little one to the ER. There's no worse heart-wrenching fear.
The RSV vaccine offers these kids protection against the worst effects of the virus but now, it looks like you're on a crusade to make infants and
babies more vulnerable to the terrible illness. That's what we're doing with the COVID changes.
CRAPO: And please make your answer brief, Mr. Secretary.
KENNEDY: I've said --
WYDEN: The position is indefensible. I think it's possible --
KENNEDY: Congress has been investigating that committee for 23 years because it is pervaded with conflicts of interest. What we did is we got
rid of the conflicts of interest when we put -- we depoliticized and put grave scientists on it, from -- a very diverse group.
WYDEN: Let close with --
KENNEDY: A very, very pro-vaccine.
WYDEN: Let me close with this because like Senator Crapo, I'm a few seconds over. I don't think, Mr. Secretary, this is about you and me. This
is about kids being pushed in harm's way by reckless and repeated decisions to get scientists and doctors out of the way and allow conspiracy theories
to dictate this country's health policy.
I don't see any evidence that you have any regrets about anything you've done or plans to change it. And my last comment is I hope that you'll tell
the American people how many preventable child deaths are an acceptable sacrifice for enacting an agenda that I think is fundamentally cruel and
defies common sense.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
KENNEDY: Do I get a reply or -- Senator, you've sat in that chair for how long, 20, 25 years while the chronic disease in our children went up to 76
percent and you said nothing. You never asked the question why it's happening. Why is this happening?
Today, for the first time in 20 years we've learned that infant mortality has increased in our country. It's not because I came in here, it's because
of what happened during the Biden administration that we're going to end.
CRAPO: I'm going to let Senator Wyden respond briefly to that and then we're not going to go over like we just did.
WYDEN: Only to defend this committee on a bipartisan basis.
Colleagues, my cabinet secretary says that we have no interest in chronic care.
Mr. Secretary --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. Chairman, could we have regular order please?
WYDEN: -- in the process of turning around the Medicare program with the chronic care bill that Chairman Hatch when he was chairman in this
committee together on a bipartisan basis.
CRAPO: All right. We're going to proceed. And I just want the rest of the members to know I gave Senator Wyden as Ranking Member some leeway.
PAMELA BROWN, CNN HOST AND CORRESPONDENT: All right. We've been listening to this hearing with embattled Health and Human Services Secretary, Robert
F. Kennedy. You saw that fiery exchange there with Democratic Senator Wyden over his vaccine policy, other issues.
[10:40:05]
We're going to continue to cover this and we'll be right back.
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BROWN: Right now, HHS secretary RFK Jr. is testifying to senators. You see here Republican Senator Grassley of Iowa speaking. Let's listen in.
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GRASSLEY: -- through these organizations to ensure that this doesn't happen again.
KENNEDY: We have mounted a major investigation of misconduct, of illegal behavior, of organ harvesting of living people.
[10:45:00]
Of line skipping, of favoritism, of all kinds of scandalous behavior inside the organ procurement organizations.
We have already ended the contract, terminated the contract with the sole source provider. We are reorganizing the entire industry so that this can
never happen again. I'm happy to go into the details with you if I had more time.
GRASSLEY: Thank you, Senator. Cornyn.
SEN. JOHN CORNYN (R-TX): Mr. Secretary, the United States spends approximately 18 percent of our GDP on healthcare and yet, by most
accounts, we rank roughly 10th in the world in terms of a healthcare outcome.
Our Democratic colleagues seem to think the more money you spend, you necessarily are going to improve those outcomes.
But at the same time, we have the two major drivers of our national debt, Social Security and Medicare, while we spend more money on interest on the
national debt than we do on defense of the nation, which is an unsustainable trajectory.
What is it that you're doing to address the effectiveness and the outcomes of our healthcare expenditures as opposed to just throwing more money at
the problem?
KENNEDY: Yes. I mean, throwing money at the problem has not worked. We spend due to three times per capita what European nations spend on
healthcare and we have the worst health outcomes. We're 79th in healthcare outcomes globally.
Over the past 20 years, we've lost -- or 30 years, we've lost six years to Europe in terms of longevity. So our lifespan was even with Europe's now at
six years behind.
As I said to -- as I remark to Chairman Wyden this morning, minority leader Wyden. The -- today we got new data that showed that infant mortality has
increased in this country in 2024, the first time in 20 years.
We've -- diabetes has gone up 98 percent in 20 years. Nobody's doing anything about it. CDC's job was to make sure that this didn't happen. And
what we're going to do is reorganize CDC but also, we've already righted the ship at NIH, at FDA, at the CMS and we are going to end the chronic
disease epidemic.
We are devoting thousands of studies, we're going to devote to identifying the causes and we're eliminating them. And we're already starting, we're
not waiting for everything to come in. We are starting now.
We're doing this with food dyes, with grass stands (ph), with dietary guidelines. We're going to get better food and better health to the
American public because it's chronic disease that is bankrupting us and destroying our national security.
CORNYN: It seems to me one of the biggest problems that we have in America today is the trustworthiness of the information that we actually receive
from the news media and from any other source.
And obviously, the easiest thing for our Democratic colleagues to do is to scare people because that is a powerful emotion no matter what the what the
facts may be.
Do you believe COVID-19 was politicized?
KENNEDY: Yes. The whole process was politicized. Senator, I mean, we were lied to about everything. We were lied to about natural immunity. We're
lied to about -- you know, we were told again and again, the vaccines would prevent transmission. They prevent infection.
It wasn't true. They knew it from the start. It wasn't true because that's what the animal studies and the clinical trial showed. We were told that
there was science behind cloth mask.
The CDC allowed the teacher's union to write the order closing our schools, which hurt working people all over the country and then pretend it was
science-based. All of these issues -- and then I can show you -- like for example, Chairman Wyden was talking about me criticizing ACIP during COVID.
The -- probably the most famous scientist on ACIP was Martin Kulldorff from Harvard, the great renowned -- world renowned epidemiologist and
vaccinologist. And he criticized the COVID booster mandates. They ejected him from COVID because he wasn't in the orthodoxy.
The two biggest health officials that FDA during COVID, Dr. Gruber and Dr. Krause criticized the Biden mandates, vaccine mandate.
[10:50:02]
You know, President Biden said in August, I would never take that vaccine, the Trump vaccine. And he came in, he mandated it.
And then he fired the two top health officials in FDA who said, hey, this thing has not been properly tested. So the whole process was politicized
even today.
CORNYN: So let me -- I have 15 seconds. So I think you answered yes, it was politicized. And does -- I have concerns that when you look at some of
the conflicts of interest in peer reviewed articles and professional journals.
And when you point out that even some of the physician associations are conflicted because of the money they get from the pharmaceutical industry,
are you committed to trying to make sure that we use the best science and separate -- and eliminate politics as much as possible?
KENNEDY: That is what my job is. That's what my mission is. Eliminate the politics from science.
CRAPO: Senator Bennet.
SEN. MICHAEL BENNET (D-CO): Mr. Secretary, in June you fired every member -- Mr. Secretary, are you -- Mr. Secretary?
May I have my time back, Mr. Chairman?
Thank you. Mr. Secretary, thank you for your attention. In June, you fired every member of the well-qualified panel that was charged with recommending
vaccines to the CDC. No one in your job has ever fired every committee member all at once.
That month you told the American people that you were, quote, "going to bring great people onto the ACIP panel, not anti-vaxxers."
Are you aware that one of the people you put on the panel, Dr. Robert Malone, claimed that the commonly used mRNA vaccine, quote, "causes a form
of AIDS" and can damage children's, quote, "brains, their heart, their immune system and their ability to have children in the future"?
Yes or no, Mr. Kennedy.
KENNEDY: And Dr. Malone is one of the inventors of the --
BENNET: Yes or no?
Yes or no?
Are you -- were you aware that he had that view when you appointed him to this panel?
KENNEDY: Dr. Malone is one of the -- as I said, Dr. Malone is one of the inventors of the mRNA vaccine.
BENNET: That's fine. That's not --
KENNEDY: So he knows more --
BENNET: That statement -- Mr. Chairman. That statement is not true that Dr. Malone made, just as it wasn't true when you wrote that, quote,
"African AIDS is entirely different from Western AIDS."
Are you aware that another one of these new members, Dr. Levy, wrote that quote, "Evidence is mounting an indisputable that mRNA vaccines cause
serious harm, including death, especially among young people"?
Yes or no?
Are you aware that he said that?
KENNEDY: I wasn't aware he said it. But I think I agree with it.
BENNET: You agree with it?
It's not true. It wasn't true when he said it. It is not true when you said it. Secretary Kennedy, later this month your new panel will meet to
consider changing vaccine recommendations for American children.
In addition to the COVID-19 vaccines, they're set to review recommendations for the hepatitis B vaccine, for measles, for mumps, for rubella and
varicella vaccine and the RSV vaccine. These are common back to school vaccinations for children all over the industrialized world.
If you change that, you owe parents in Colorado and across the country the benefit of some transparency, I think. If your panel recommends changing
the vaccine schedule for children, do you anticipate that fewer children will receive these common vaccinations?
Yes or no?
KENNEDY: I what I would say, Senator --
BENNET: The obvious answer is yes.
Should parents and schools of Colorado be prepared for more measles outbreaks as a result of that, Mr. Secretary?
KENNEDY: Senator --
BENNET: How about were mumps outbreaks?
KENNEDY: I don't -- I do not anticipate a change in the MMR vaccine. You know, ACIP is an independent panel. So --
BENNET: So well, it's a panel you just put those folks on far from what you said. There are people with ideas that are completely outside the
mainstream.
KENNEDY: You mean out of the pharmaceutical paradigm?
BENNET: Let me just say, Mr. Secretary, all these vaccines that we're talking about today are free and accessible to parents today in America who
have the freedom to be able to make that choice for their children.
Will that be true after your handpicked panel makes their judgements about these vaccines?
KENNEDY: I think that parents should be free to --
BENNET: I know you said that before.
[10:55:00]
I do too.
KENNEDY: To make their own choices.
BENNET: So will they be just as free after these records?
KENNEDY: I assume they will be.
BENNET: I will hold you to that, Secretary Kennedy, because this is not a podcast. It is the American people's health that's on the line here. This
is the last thing, by the way, our parents need when their kids are going back to school, is to have the kind of confusion and expense and scarcity
that you're creating as a result of your ideology.
I think it's critical for you to share the evidence that this panel will rely on. Will you give the American people six months -- or six weeks in
advance the record that they're going to rely on to make these decisions?
Will you make it transparent for the American people?
KENNEDY: All the evidence is transparent.
BENNET: Will you make it in advance transparent for the American people so they can comment on?
KENNEDY: All the evidence is transparent for the first time in history. and you were never there complaining when the pharmaceutical companies were
picking those people and then running their products through with no safety testing.
BENNET: You can make -- you can characterize it any way you want. I quoted them today, what I said was accurate. What you said were lies. You
described --
KENNEDY: Are you, Senator --
BENNET: -- moving the Titanic --
KENNEDY: Senator, are you saying that mRNA vaccine has never been associated with myocarditis or pericarditis nature --
BENNET: I'm saying -- I am simply --
KENNEDY: Is that what you're trying to tell us?
BENNET: I am simply trying to say that the people that you have put on that panel after firing the entire --
KENNEDY: You're evading the question.
BENNET: You -- no, I'm asking the questions here. Mr. Kennedy.
KENNEDY: You're evading that question.
BENNET: I'm asking the questions, Mr. Kennedy.
KENNEDY: Oh, I ask a question.
BENNET: I'm asking the questions, Mr. Kennedy, on behalf of parents and schools and teachers all over the United States of America who deserve so
much better than your leadership. That's what this conversation is about.
KENNEDY: Senator --
BENNET: Thank you, Chairman.
KINKADE: Senator, they deserve the truth and that's what we're going to give them for the first time in the history of that agency.
CRAPO: Senator Cassidy.
SEN. BILL CASSIDY (R-LA): Thank you. I'll try and restore a little calm here. And I'm approaching this as a doctor, not as a senator. I'm concerned
about children's health, senior's health, all of our health.
And I applaud you for joining the president in a call for radical transparency. Thank you for that.
I said yesterday, I believe it, that President Trump deserves a Nobel Prize for Operation Warp Speed. If he had been President Obama, he would've
gotten it.
But because of Operation Warp Speed, forcing the federal government to come to a vaccine development within 10 months when others said it couldn't be
done, we saved millions of lives globally, trillions of dollars, we reopened economy economies, an incredible accomplishment.
Mr. Secretary, do you agree with me that the president deserves a Nobel Prize for Operation Warp Speed?
KENNEDY: Yes, absolutely, Senator.
CASSIDY: So let me ask you but you just told Senator Bennet that the COVID vaccine killed more people than COVID. That was a statement.
KENNEDY: I did not say that.
CASSIDY: OK. Then let me ask, because you also were --
KENNEDY: Senator, I just want to make clear. I did not say that.
CASSIDY: We'll check the record. That's a question of fact. You also said that you were also as lead attorney for the Children's Health Defense. You
engaged in multiple lawsuits attempting to restrict access to the COVID vaccine.
Again, it surprises me that you think so highly of Operation Warp Speed when as an attorney you attempted to restrict access.
Now let me ask --
KENNEDY: I'm happy to explain why.
CASSIDY: I have three minutes and 30 seconds left.
KENNEDY: All right.
CASSIDY: It also surprises me, because you've canceled or HHS did but apparently under your direction, $500 million in contracts using the mRNA
vaccine platform that was critical to Operation Warp Speed. Again, an accomplishment that I think President Trump should get a Nobel Prize for.
You canceled $500 million in contracts.
Now I grew up in a middle-class family. So $500 million seems -- just to cancel, it seems like a incredible waste of money.
But it also seems like a commentary upon what the president was attempting -- what the president did in Operation Warp Speed, which is to create a
platform by which to create vaccines. So this just seems inconsistent that you would agree with me the president deserves tremendous amount of credit
for this.
KENNEDY: Is this a question, Senator Cassidy or is this a speech?
You don't want me to answer --
CASSIDY: No, I'm asking you a question.
KENNEDY: Because I want to answer that question.
CASSIDY: Please, please.
KENNEDY: If it's a question.
CASSIDY: But be tight, please.
KENNEDY: First of all the reason that. Operation Warp Speed was genius, is it did something nobody had ever been done. I don't think any president but
sure President Trump could do it. It got the vaccine to mark that was perfectly matched to the virus at that time.
END
