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Anger in Israel over Delayed Release of Deceased Hostages; Israel Reducing Aid into Gaza; Trump Says Phase Two of Gaza Ceasefire Deal Begins Now; Zelenskyy Visiting White House to Push for Tomahawks; Former Kenyan Prime Minister Raila Odinga Dead At 80; Scammers Stealing Millions from Unsuspecting Americans Using Crypto ATMs. Aired 10-10:45a ET

Aired October 15, 2025 - 10:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice-over): Live from CNN London, this is CONNECT THE WORLD.

CHRISTINA MACFARLANE, CNN ANCHOR AND CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Welcome to our second hour of CONNECT THE WORLD with me, Christina Macfarlane.

Becky is off today and I am live in London, where it is 3 pm.

Anger and frustration in Israel over the slow pace of the return of hostages while aid trickles in to Gaza. The very latest details we have are

just ahead.

Plus, U.S. secretary of state -- sorry -- U.S. Secretary of Defense Pete Hegseth has some strong words for NATO leaders ahead of a critical meeting

between Trump and the Ukrainian president.

And could you be a victim of a crypto scam?

CNN investigates how innocent people are being duped into handing over their life savings. How you can protect yourself, that's coming up.

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MACFARLANE: Unfinished business from phase one of the Gaza ceasefire deal is stoking tensions and creating intense pressure on the entire process. At

present, Hamas has handed over just eight bodies under their agreement to return 28 deceased hostages. Israel says one of them was not actually one

of the captives.

The slow pace of their return is frustrating the Israeli public and the government, which is now responding by restricting the flow of aid into

Gaza. The U.N. says Israel confirmed only 300 trucks, half the number agreed, would be allowed in today. So a lot to cover from the region.

Our CNN's Jeremy Diamond is joining us live from Tel Aviv.

So Jeremy, tensions are already beginning to fray here just a couple of days into this ceasefire deal.

What more details are you learning this hour about that one hostage body?

JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN JERUSALEM CORRESPONDENT: Well, the Israeli Forensic Institute carried out DNA analysis on those four bodies that were returned

to Israel late last night by Hamas, what was supposed to resolve some of the pressures over the slow release of some of these 28 bodies of hostages

as part of this ceasefire agreement.

But Israel today announced that only three of those four bodies actually were confirmed to be the hostages that Hamas had claimed that they were.

The fourth body, they said, was not a hostage on the list of the 28 individuals that Israel has been expecting their return. It's not clear

whose body that actually is at this point.

It is not the first time that we have seen this. But so far the indications are that this was not necessarily intentional by Hamas but may have been a

cause of mistaken identity. And it speaks, of course, to the fact that Hamas has been holding some of these bodies for nearly two years now. Some

of them were killed on October 7th, 2023, and have been held since then.

And so you can imagine the state that these bodies might be in two years later. So we're waiting to see how many more bodies Hamas may release today

or in the coming days. We know, of course, that this now means that there are still 21 bodies of Israeli hostages being held in Gaza by Hamas.

And as a result of some of the kind of slow roll of the release of these bodies, we have heard Israeli officials tell the United Nations that they

were going to be reducing the amount of humanitarian aid going into Gaza.

As a result, we are seeing the movement of some aid into Gaza today. So it's not clear to what extent those steps have or have not been taken. But

clearly that is one of the levers on the table that Israel is considering using in order to pressure Hamas to uphold its end of the bargain.

MACFARLANE: And added to that, Jeremy, are you hearing anything on the access points into Gaza as well, the possibility of the Rafah crossing

being open or closed?

DIAMOND: Well, it does seem like there is work underway to open that Rafah crossing. We know that last night the Israeli security establishment was

recommending not opening that crossing as a result of Hamas not releasing additional bodies.

But once there was the release of those four bodies, three of which again were confirmed to be hostages, it seems like that relieved some of the

pressure there.

And there are still efforts underway to open that Rafah crossing, which will allow Palestinian civilians to move back and forth from Egypt into the

Gaza Strip, at least those with permissions.

But for now, it seems that only two of the seven crossings into Gaza are open for aid to be going inside. And we heard today from the United Nations

relief chief, Tom Fletcher.

[10:05:00]

And he is making clear that is -- that more efforts need to be made to allow for this surge of humanitarian aid that is part of the phase one

ceasefire agreement between Israel and Hamas.

And he said that humanitarian aid should not be used as a bargaining chip, even as he also called on Hamas to uphold its end of the deal and release

those hostage bodies very soon.

MACFARLANE: Yes, that aid so desperately needed on the Strip right now. CNN's Jeremy Diamond, thank you.

Now the whole family of Itay Chen is waiting for his remains to be returned. The 19-year-old American Israeli citizen and IDF soldier was

killed during the Hamas-led October 7th attacks.

The IDF says Chen's remains were taken into Gaza after he was killed. His father spoke to CNN earlier and expressed frustration and disappointment

over the delay.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RUBY CHEN, FATHER OF ITAY CHEN: Yes. If we just go to the facts, it's been 96 hours where they were supposed to come out with 48 hostages. And 96

hours have passed by and we only have 28 -- or 27 of those hostages out.

I don't think that was the intention of the agreement that was put in place and definitely not for the United States that out of those 48 there were

two U.S. citizens that have not come out yet.

My son is no less of a hostage than the other 27 that came out over the last couple of days. And he is a U.S. citizen and I hope being a U.S.

citizen that matters. I hope other U.S. citizens listening to me now and might be traveling abroad and God forbid someone might take them. It should

be a liability, not an asset, to take U.S. citizens out.

And it's also inconceivable that Russia got all of its citizens out. Germany, France got their citizens out. But the U.S. still have two

citizens left behind. What does that mean about being a U.S. citizen?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MACFARLANE: Well, as negotiations move forward in the Gaza ceasefire deal, Mr. Trump is vowing to make sure Hamas lays down its arms.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: If they don't disarm, we will disarm them and it will happen quickly and perhaps violently but they will disarm. Do you understand me?

Because you always -- everyone says, oh, well, they won't disarm. They will disarm.

And I spoke to Hamas and I said, you're going to disarm, right?

Yes, sir, we're going to disarm. That's what they told me. They will disarm or we will disarm them. Got it?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MACFARLANE: CNN's Alayna Treene is joining us live from the White House.

So, Alayna, any more detail you're learning on what Donald Trump meant by those words?

Obviously, the U.S. have not committed to putting any troops on the ground in Gaza.

ALAYNA TREENE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Exactly right, Christina, and I would argue that this is by far the most striking comment we have now heard from

the president ever since he returned from his trip to the Middle East.

But no, again, to answer your question, we do not have more details currently on what that could look like. And to your point about U.S. troops

on the ground, I mean, we just heard from the vice president a couple days ago on Sunday, reiterating that there is no plan to have U.S. boots on the

ground.

He said that the president will not do that. Now that does not mean, of course, there will be no military presence at all. As we know, the CENTCOM

command center has a number of different military members who are working out of there, who are already on the ground in the region. They will be

monitoring all of this.

But the idea of sending troops to potentially force Hamas to disarm them, it's very unclear what that could look like.

And this was really, of course, one of the things we had all been anticipating was going to be one of the most fragile parts of this 20-point

ceasefire plan and one of the biggest obstacles that all of the groups involved in these negotiations still has ahead of them.

We have, of course, phase one, which is in itself still seeing some issues with what you just discussed with Jeremy, about all of the hostages not

necessarily being returned just yet. And they're getting close to that 72- hour deadline that had been laid out in the 20-point ceasefire agreement.

But so much more of looking ahead is really where the hard work is left with disarming Hamas but also the future governance of Gaza. And so a lot

of that still needs to be figured out.

Now, of course, those negotiations are still happening behind the scenes. We know, for example, that the president's son-in-law, Jared Kushner, as

well as his Middle East envoy, Steve Witkoff, they are continuing to talk to all of the different allies in the region, from the Qataris to the

Saudis to the Emiratis.

All of them are going to have a seat at the table in discussing how this is going to happen moving forward.

But I would also argue this -- and from my conversations with White House officials, they told me there's a couple areas that has given them reason

to still be very optimistic about the future of all of this.

One is, of course, unlike past ceasefire agreements that were negotiated and then fell apart just to have to see the fighting between the two sides

resume.

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This one has far more international buyin from all of the leaders in the region. And then also there were questions, of course, about Monday. We saw

the president go to that summit in Egypt. He was joined by a number of world leaders.

Some people have asked, you know, was that too early to be celebrating both in Israel and in Egypt this deal, before we really saw it put into

practice?

But many said that's a way to hold both Israel and Hamas accountable as they look to really try and hold this ceasefire in place and make sure it

lasts. So all of that, of course, is a big consideration.

But again, to your point and to your first question, this idea of disarming Hamas has still not been quite figured out. And as the president said, if

they do not do it themselves, he is threatening to do it by force.

Unclear what that means but it does seem like the president is trying to use this threat to ensure Hamas holds up its end of the bargain.

MACFARLANE: Yes, well, it is a pretty immediate concern, isn't it?

So we'll wait to see what Donald Trump might have meant by those words in the days to come. Alayna, appreciate it. Thank you.

Well, despite difficult timing, the Israeli prime minister had to appear in court today. Benjamin Netanyahu giving his testimony to his corruption

trial. As that resumed, he reportedly requested a shorter appearance than planned due to a persistent cold. The prime minister could be heard

coughing in court.

Allies from his Likud Party showed up to lend their support, making their way through a crowd of protesters outside. Mr. Netanyahu is facing three

separate cases. He's accused of taking bribes and illegally trading favors, all of which he denies.

U.S. Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth says NATO allies are expected to buy more American weapons and supply them to Ukraine after a key arms

agreement. Hegseth spoke ahead of a meeting in Brussels earlier today, where NATO defense ministers were weighing their response to Russian

aggression.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PETE HEGSETH, U.S. SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: Firepower. That's what is coming. We expect it is coming from NATO.

You get peace when you are strong, not when you use strong words or wag your finger. You get it when you have strong and real capabilities that

adversaries respect.

And I believe that's what NATO is doing. I believe that's what the Pearl Initiative is. So our expectation today is that more countries donate even

more, that they purchase even more to provide for Ukraine, to bring that conflict to a peaceful conclusion.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MACFARLANE: Well, Hegseth did not mention supplying American-made Tomahawk missiles to Kyiv. President Trump says he expects Ukrainian president

Volodymyr Zelenskyy to push for those Tomahawks when the two leaders meet at the White House on Friday.

So let's get the view from Europe. CNN senior international correspondent Fred Pleitgen is joining us from Berlin with the latest.

So with president Zelenskyy heading to the White House, as I say, Fred, on Friday, all eyes on the big question of whether Donald Trump will, in fact,

provide those Tomahawks.

FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, what progress such talks are going to make, it was quite interesting, of course,

to hear president Trump speak about this yesterday when he said he knows that Volodymyr Zelenskyy is going to come to Washington, D.C.

Not only asking for obviously more air defense capabilities for the Ukrainians to try and fend off some of those Russian attacks on Ukraine's

infrastructure, which, of course, have increased drastically over the last couple of months, but that he also believes that Volodymyr Zelenskyy is

going to be asking for those Tomahawk missiles.

And president Trump keeps saying, look, maybe he would be willing to give the Ukrainians those Tomahawk missiles if President Putin of Russia is not

willing or president Trump does not see a willingness to end the war in Ukraine. But he left that open.

But, of course, that is a question that looms over that NATO summit that is going on in Brussels. Specifically, the NATO member states did not speak

about this. And it was quite interesting to hear, earlier today, the secretary general of NATO, Mark Rutte.

He came out and he said, look, obviously NATO is in favor of that meeting and very happy about that meeting between president Trump and Volodymyr

Zelenskyy. But any questions about supplying Tomahawk missiles to the Ukrainians is a bilateral issue between the United States and between

Ukraine.

Both the U.S. directly supplied those weapons to the Ukrainians.

But also if, under that Pearl Initiative, that we just heard, Pete Hegseth, the U.S. secretary of war, speak about the U.S. were to sell those weapons

to European NATO member states to then give them to Ukraine, the U.S. obviously would have to sign off on those being transferred and how those

would be used by the Ukrainians as well.

So it's a question that looms over that summit but certainly not one that anybody who's at that summit is willing to speak about directly. Pete

Hegseth, of course, speaking at length about that Pearl Initiative and about the fact that many NATO member states have committed to spending more

on defense.

One of the points that he made, obviously always good for a one-liner, he said, it's time for NATO member states to turn gold into guns, as he put

it, Christina.

MACFARLANE: Very catchy. Fred, we know that NATO members are looking for ways to plug holes in their vulnerable defense -- air defenses.

[10:15:02]

Given the amount of drone incursions that we've seen, were there any commitments or decisions made on that today?

PLEITGEN: Absolutely massive topic at that summit. Absolutely massive topic here in continental Europe, certainly in Eastern Europe as well.

I think one of the things that recent drone sightings that we've seen in Denmark, for instance, but over German airports as well and then, of

course, that incursion that happened in Poland but also those Russian jets that allegedly flew over Estonian territory.

Even though, of course, the Russians still deny that, that has certainly laid bare some of the issues that NATO has in its air defense capabilities.

There's two things, really, that that the alliance is looking at right now. Also, the secretary general of NATO spoke about this.

On the one hand, obviously, to improve those capabilities. They did say that they felt that NATO reacted adequately, especially to that drone

incursion in Poland. It was obviously able to shoot down those drones that made it into Polish territory.

But they also acknowledged that the way they did that is pretty ineffective, of course, using fighter jets in many cases, in some cases,

the F-35, specifically Dutch F-35, at very high cost, to shoot down those drones, that, of course, are very cheap.

So one of the things that NATO member states are going to be looking at is doing that in a more cost-effective way, which means, on the one hand,

detecting drones and other things a lot quicker to fly into NATO territory.

But then also finding ways to take drones down more cost-effectively with systems that could be on the ground. But, of course, also drone systems,

for instance, that take down drones as well. It's a big topic. It's something that NATO says they are going to invest heavily in.

The big keyword that you hear again and again at that summit is the drone wall, trying to build up a wall, if you will, in the sky, figuratively

speaking, obviously, to make sure that Russian drones do not make it into NATO territory.

A lot of NATO member states, I think, right now, are realizing that the drone threat is very real to their territory and is certainly something

that they need to deal with, whether or not they're on NATO's eastern flank and the territory close to Russia and Belarus.

But also much deeper inside Western Europe, as well as those sightings, for instance, in Denmark and Germany, have shown. Christina.

MACFARLANE: Yes, I know you'll continue to follow this, Fred, as we look ahead to that meeting between Zelenskyy and Trump this Friday. Thank you

for now.

And still to come on CNN, remembering the life and legacy of veteran Kenyan opposition leader Raila Odinga.

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MACFARLANE: A pivotal figure in Kenyan politics has died at the age of 80. Raila Odinga served as prime minister from 2008 to 2013. He's also

remembered for his decades-long work as a pro-democracy activist. His efforts led to important political reforms, including multi-party democracy

and a new constitution.

CNN's Larry Madowo is joining us now from Nairobi with more on his life and legacy.

And, Larry, I know that people have been coming to Nairobi where you are, to pay their respects.

[10:20:03]

And many, many people there are mourning. Just give us the mood.

LARRY MADOWO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: There's been an outpouring of grief across the country, not just here in Nairobi but in other parts of the

country.

People have come out on the streets. There's been open weeping. And you will see some of them holding branches, which is something in traditional

Luo culture. You only hold those branches when somebody, a great man dies.

And the ceremonial weeping that you see as well also honors the life and legacy of this man, Raila Odinga. It's been 12 years since he was in public

office, when he ended his term as prime minister. But he still remained probably the most consequential figure of African politics, in Kenyan

politics certainly, over the last three decades or so.

He helped bring multi-party democracy in Kenya in 1991 and was instrumental in the new constitution in 2010 that's been praised as one of the most

progressive in the world.

And he died while receiving treatment in India. President William Ruto called him a colossus and a father of democracy in Kenya. This is what the

president said as well.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WILLIAM RUTO, PRESIDENT OF KENYA: A fearless freedom fighter and a tireless warrior of good governance, Raila Odinga's name will forever be

etched in the story of our republic.

A story of struggle, sacrifice, courage, rule of law, hope and of our pursuit for excellence. For decades, Raila dedicated his life to the

pursuit of justice, equity and freedom.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MADOWO: The Kenyan president has declared seven days of national mourning and says Raila Odinga will receive a state funeral with full honors at a

later date, Christina.

MACFARLANE: Larry, how was Odinga able to wield such political influence, having never won the presidency himself?

I think he had five unsuccessful presidential campaigns. Just build that picture for us.

MADOWO: That's correct. It's not every day that somebody runs and loses the presidential race five times but still maintains such influence that

the winner has to work with him.

And the last four Kenyan presidents have had to get into coalitions or partnerships with Raila Odinga and the opposition, just so that they could

govern collectively, including president William Ruto, the man you just saw there, who ran and beat Raila Odinga in the 2020 election.

And recently, about a year ago, did an agreement with his party to join his government so they could work together in what they call a broad-based

government.

That spoke to the influence that Raila Odinga held in this country, not just in the traditional Western part of the country but in other parts of

the nation, making him one of the true national leaders who was respected not just here in the country but across the world.

You see these eulogies coming in, being remembered by Narendra Modi, by Cyril Ramaphosa, by Bola Tinubu, the president of Nigeria, and by leaders

from around the world, who celebrate his towering -- his towering status as one of the biggest figures to come out of African politics in the last few

decades, Christina.

MACFARLANE: Well, Larry, as you say, people there in mourning. They will continue to remember him. We appreciate it for now. Thank you.

Now the Trump administration is facing new questions today about its $20 billion lifeline for Argentina. The country's president was at the White

House Tuesday, where president Trump said the currency swap is contingent on Javier Milei staying in power.

The bailout, as some call it, comes in the middle of the government shutdown and budget cuts from the Trump administration. And critics say the

plan is hurting American farmers, as China is buying soybeans from Argentina, not the U.S. Here's how president Trump explained his decision.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: It's really meant to help a good financial philosophy, where Argentina can, after 20 years of disaster -- because it was very successful

at one point and it can be again, like Venezuela. Venezuela was very, very successful. And now, it's a dictatorship.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MACFARLANE: All right. Still to come --

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GUS CASON, SCAM VICTIM: I should have known better. I should have known better. I was stupid enough, I fell for it.

MACFARLANE (voice-over): The heartbreak of victims who fell for the latest bitcoin scam as they lose thousands of dollars despite the police

recovering their money.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

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MACFARLANE (voice-over): Welcome back to CONNECT THE WORLD. I'm Christina Macfarlane. Here are our headlines this hour.

A doctor in Tel Aviv says that 10 freed Israeli hostages under his care are now in stable condition. They were among the 20 living hostages released by

Hamas under the Gaza ceasefire deal. The doctor notes it will take time to heal physically and mentally after two years in captivity.

U.S. Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth says more firepower is coming to Ukraine ahead of a meeting of NATO ministers in Brussels. Hegseth said NATO

allies will buy even more American weapons for Kyiv under a key arms initiative.

Kenya's former prime minister Raila Odinga has died at the age of 80. He held that office from 2008 to 2013 and also served as a pivotal leader in

Kenyan politics for decades. His work as a pro-democracy activist led to important reforms, including multi-party democracy.

MACFARLANE: CNN investigates a growing scam with a modern twist. Now you've likely heard of people getting phone calls, being tricked into

paying money into scammers' bank accounts.

But now more and more Americans are being told to feed their cash, usually thousands of dollars, into a crypto ATM. Our senior investigative

correspondent, Kyung Lah, shows us how the scams unfold and how they tried to steal money from her.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, no, no, no, no, no.

KYUNG LAH, CNN SENIOR INVESTIGATIVE CORRESPONDENT: You are watching a victim get scammed -- one of thousands of Americans caught in a growing

global crime spree that's no secret to police.

OFFICER: This is the police department.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don't care.

LAH: Or even store clerks.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A lot of people have been scammed recently.

LAH: From Georgia --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Somebody on the internet, some scam caller told him to do this.

LAH: -- to Massachusetts --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What did they tell you to do?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Take $31,000.00 out and then put it into a Bitcoin.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh no.

LAH: -- Texas.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I know there's an elderly lady feeding thousands of into the cryptocurrency machine.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Please, I have the bank on the phone and I'm in danger. This is Chase Bank.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. No you're not, ma'am.

LAH: -- and Ohio.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How much money have you already sent to them?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's $10,700.00

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Jesus Christ, oh man.

LAH: I even talked to one of these scammers.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You need to withdraw $9,500.00 from your account.

LAH: And you'll see how he tried to steal 10 grand. This is a scam. You know it and I know it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why does it seem like?

Am I talking to the reporter?

LAH: In all of these cases, these machines called crypto ATMs become the getaway car for the scammers who prey on victims like Gus Cason.

CASON: After I stepped in $100.00 bills, it would prompt you for everything that come up and I had him on the phone, too.

LAH: Had you ever seen this before?

CASON: Never been here before. Never been here after.

LAH: Just outside Cedar Rapids, Iowa is where Gus Cason calls home. Age 71, a retired union worker and super fan of the band Nickelback.

Two years ago, as he was recovering from a stroke --

CASON: I got a phone call. Well, he told me he was president of the bank. I said, now you tell me. I want you to swear that you're not a scam. I

swear I'm not a scam and all that. He convinced me. He was good. He was good.

I just had a stroke.

[10:30:00]

I wasn't thinking right at all.

LAH: The scammer told Gus that he would be arrested unless he withdrew $15,000.00 in cash and deposited it in that crypto ATM. It looks like a

normal ATM but a crypto ATM is different, put in cash and it converts it into cryptocurrency in an instant.

Victims like Gus have lost about $240 million so far this year, says the FBI, double the pace of last year.

CASON: I should have known better. I should have known better. I was stupid enough, I fell for it.

LAH: The scammer took off with Gus' cash in the form of cryptocurrency. But the crypto ATM company also made money from the transaction.

Our investigation found the companies that operate crypto ATMs profit off the fees and markups, often at 20 to 30 percent that they charge on

transactions, scam or legit.

And when police have seized the scammed cash out of the ATMs, the crypto ATM companies hit back hard in court to get that cash back, which is what

happened to Gus Cason.

MAJ. CHAD COLSTON, LINN COUNTY SHERIFF'S OFFICE, IOWA: This is our evidence processing room.

LAH: Maj. Chad Colston and his deputies at the Linn County Sheriff's Office managed to recover the $15,000.00 in cash that Gus had put into that

crypto ATM as evidence in a crime.

LAH: How confident were you that the victim would get that money back after you took it out of the machine?

COLSTON: So we were very confident.

LAH: His confidence was short-lived. Bitcoin Depot, the company with the most crypto ATMs in the U.S., fought in court to get the $15,000.00 back.

The company points out its machines, like many crypto ATMs have multiple on screen warnings, alerts of scams and requires that customers agree that

they're only sending money to their own accounts. So in court, Bitcoin Depot won.

COLSTON: We ended up getting a communication from Bitcoin Depot. They said it was a glorious day, gentlemen, when can we come get our money which was

our victim's money.

A multi-million-dollar company is overjoyed that they get $15,000.00 and our victim is, you know, hurting. I mean, that's their life savings.

LAH: Bitcoin Depot has used tough tactics to stop police from seizing money for evidence like threats to immediately litigate or suspending fee

refunds in entire states if a single officer tries to seize cash.

LAH: Bitcoin Depot even sent an Amazon gift to mock one police department, a copy of the U.S. Constitution with a note calling the seizure of a scam

victim's money a Fourth Amendment violation.

After we reached out to Bitcoin Depot about these messages to police, the company told us the messages were unacceptable and the employee responsible

is no longer with Bitcoin Depot.

LAH: What do you think, Gus, that everybody seemed to get money but you who saved that money?

CASON: You know, Bitcoin had no business getting that money at all. I mean, really, when -- especially when it's a scam.

LAH: Do you think that's fair?

CASON: Well, hell, no.

LAH: Lawsuits from attorneys general accuse the top three crypto ATM firms of profiting from scams and not protecting customers.

Iowa's A.G. "More than half of all money taken in by Bitcoin Depot in Iowa over three years came from scams."

Washington, D.C.'s A.G. "At least 93 percent of deposits over several months from Athena Bitcoin machines came from scams."

Athena Bitcoin tells CNN it strongly disputes the allegations in the complaint and says it has strong safeguards against fraud.

Bitcoin Depot tells us, "We do not profit from scams and the vast majority of our customers use our kiosks for lawful purposes." The company adds, "If

it can't stop the transaction, it reviews every potential scam case individually for possible fee relief or refunds."

But we spoke to nearly a dozen victims who were tricked by scammers while using Bitcoin Depot machines and only one said she got a fee refund.

These scammers are so convincing that a lot of the victims actually say it's almost as if they're hypnotized. They are fully convinced that they're

going to get in trouble if they don't insert all of this money into a crypto ATM.

We actually spoke to a scammer on the phone. He tried to steal $10,000 from me and it wasn't until I told him that I was a news reporter that he hung

up.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MACFARLANE: Kyung Lah reporting.

Well, Steve Grobman is the chief technology officer at online protection firm McAfee and joins us now from near Dallas, Texas.

Thank you for your time. Steve, what is absolutely remarkable to me, having watched that report, is the victims standing there at these ATM machines

with the police standing over them, saying, don't feed your money in. This is a scam.

And those victims not even believing the police. As Kyung Lah said at the end there, it's as though people have become hypnotized.

[10:35:00]

How is it possible that this is so psychologically ingrained for them that they're almost brainwashed, these victims?

STEVE GROBMAN, CHIEF TECHNOLOGY OFFICER, MCAFEE: Well, thanks so much for having me.

And you're right; what the scammers have done is they have made the art into scamming individuals a science. They surgically select their victims.

When we look at the reports, we see the vast majority of these victims are over 60 years old. They don't necessarily have the experience in the

digital economy, familiarity with cryptocurrency.

And they have the script in the playbook down to a science, which really puts a sense of fear into these victims that ultimately results in what we

just saw in the piece that you played.

MACFARLANE: And Gus, the gentleman we saw in that report certainly fits that demographic you mentioned. But I think anyone can fall prey to a scam.

I mean, I've almost fallen prey to it myself.

What hope do we have, though, Steve, of resisting scams as scamming schemes become more sophisticated with the latest technology, the advent of AI, for

instance?

GROBMAN: So it's going to come down to two things. Number one is education. So the discussion that we're having here today, making sure that

all consumers recognize legitimate organizations don't mandate that you pay in bitcoin. If no government does this, no tech firms do this.

If you get a call, if you get an email, if you get a text message, it's a scam if they're asking you to go take out cash and bring it to one of these

ATM machines.

The other side of the equation is a lot of what McAfee is focused on, which is using the best technology to defend consumers against the scams.

So those vectors that we talked about, where scammers engage, whether it's text or email, we're developing AI technology to detect whether things are

scams or not, so that consumers don't necessarily need to be that forensic expert.

It's also a reality that we need to recognize the friction's gone way down in the ability for scammers to call someone and have one of these bitcoin

ATM machines in their back yard.

As you mentioned, our McAfee offices are here outside of Dallas. And we have one of these machines less than a mile away. So it's really a problem

everywhere. And all consumers need to be aware.

MACFARLANE: So if you were to advise consumers or just average people today about how they can defend themselves, what are the key red flags we

should look for?

GROBMAN: Number one, any time that cryptocurrency or bitcoin is the way that somebody wants to be paid, it's a scam. That's the first and simplest.

The second is, if you get something in an email or a text message that's causing you concern and you think that it might be from an actual agency,

like a government agency, go to their website and contact them directly.

So in the United States, government agencies have their websites end in .gov. So if you get a text message from someone claiming to be with the

IRS, contact the IRS directly. And that's a big part of it.

And then finally use the technology, use the technology on all of your devices and in the cloud because you don't need to go at this alone.

There's great technology to make this easier for consumers.

MACFARLANE: It's all good advice, Steve. And I'm very pleased to hear there is counter technology to this in the works already with you and your

company. Appreciate it. Thank you.

And we'll be right back after this quick break. Stay with us.

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[10:40:00]

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MACFARLANE: Welcome back.

The United Arab Emirates is playing a key role in what could potentially be the largest data center deal in history and the latest blockbuster

transaction tied to the AI boom.

A group of investors that includes BlackRock, Nvidia, Microsoft and the UAE-based company MGX is acquiring the company, Aligned Data Centers, for a

whopping $40 billion. Aligned operates 78 data centers across the U.S. and South America.

And when it comes to international travel, the passport you carry can make a big difference. The new ranking of the world's most powerful passports

puts three Asian countries at the top of the rankings.

Singapore, South Korea and Japan lead the Henley Passport Index with their high numbers of visa-free access to global destinations. For the first time

in the index's 20-year history, the U.S. has fallen out of the top 10, dropping to 12th place.

The U.K. passport, which held the top spot a decade ago, has sunk to its lowest ever position at number eight, sadly, for me here in the U.K.

And that is it for us at CONNECT THE WORLD. Stay with CNN. "MARKETPLACE ASIA" is up next.

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