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Erin Burnett Outfront
Decision Time; Battleground Math; Secret War; Decriminalizing Marijuana
Aired June 04, 2012 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ERIN BURNETT, HOST: OUTFRONT next, just hours away from the first real battle in the 2012 election. Did Democrats misfire big- time in Wisconsin?
And George Zimmerman's lawyer makes a stunning admission. Will it cost his client his freedom?
And Mayor Bloomberg's latest stance, pro-pot and anti-munchies, that's just the way that guy kind of rolls. I mean you know he can't -- you've got to put a carrot and then a stick. Let's go OUTFRONT.
Good evening, everyone. I'm Erin Burnett. OUTFRONT tonight, decision time. It's the biggest and most important election before November 6th and it's getting started in just under 12 hours. Wisconsin Republican Governor Scott Walker fighting what is probably going to end up being the most expensive high-stakes recall election in American history. Democrats want Walker out after he and the Republican-controlled legislature voted to strip union members of collective bargaining rights. Remember all those pictures of just complete chaos in the State Capitol?
Democrats accuse Walker of waging a war on unions. Republicans say they're doing their jobs, trying to stem a budget crisis in the state. It has become one of the most bitter political fights in America pegging big business against big labor. Talk about two sumo wrestlers. Neither of those groups on their own are loaded. Together it's money and steroids. You're talking about possibly $80 million just for this race. That is pretty stunning. And the impact of tomorrow's election is going to be felt across the country.
John Avlon, Reihan Salam and Jamal Simmons are here, the three musketeers. John, this is, as I said, I like the sumo wrestler image because they both come off as kind of bloated and full of excess, which both big business and big labor often can be in elections.
JOHN AVLON, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Absolutely true and this is the big fight in the badger state. All eyes on Wisconsin tomorrow, high stakes. Whoever wins this is going to be going into the general election with a real sense of confidence, not only when it comes to swing states like Wisconsin but a sense of momentum behind them. But it really is a big indication of just how much money is going to be driving the debate this year, unprecedented amounts, difficult to follow, driven by special interests. This is all-out political warfare in the state of Wisconsin right now.
BURNETT: And the history, John, right, shows that incumbents get tossed out in these recall elections?
(CROSSTALK)
BURNETT: It may not happen this time, but --
AVLON: There are three cases where this has occurred in American history. We've got a little bit recall happy, this constant litigation of election results in our country, but this has been a big one. And one of the big secrets is the RNC chairman, Reince Priebus, is a Wisconsinite so there's a real knowledge of the state inside the RNC. It's one of many ways that local politics is national politics in this race.
BURNETT: Jamal, did the president make a mistake by not going? Everyone has talked about well he sat this out. Was that a mistake? I mean obviously you go and your guy loses, you look like a loser, that's bad. But if you -- people think oh, you went, it could make a difference you really look like a loser.
JAMAL SIMMONS, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: Well this is going to be an uphill fight in Wisconsin. I think everybody on the ground and nationally knows that. You've got firefighters and cops and you know nurses and other people really slugging it out on the ground to try to make it work. Whether or not the president should go, I mean if I'm in the White House I probably say no just because you really want to let the local people drive this.
I know they have had Bill Clinton come in and some other national figures. This is a pretty high-risk strategy to send the president of the United States in for something like this. So I think you know you've got a lot of money, like you said, $80 million perhaps, some have said 50 million of that 80 million is coming from Walker supporters. So it's a pretty uphill battle for the folks in the state on the Democratic side, but we'll see what happens tomorrow.
BURNETT: How much does money like this, though, in one state matter? I mean people know their state. They know what they think about this stuff. It's a little different than nationally --
REIHAN SALAM, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Money matters but so do bodies. And the thing is that the public sector (ph) labor unions have a ton of bodies and they've used them very, very effectively. What people forget is that Wisconsin is part of a much larger series of battles. Remember 2005 when Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger came in, huge political sensation who at the time was very popular and he fought against public unions in his state and he lost massively and retreated on all kinds of issues, having seen them flex their muscles. In Ohio this year you had Governor John Kasich pass a similar measure to what we saw in Wisconsin and it was rolled back in a referendum that was backed by big labor not just in Ohio but through labor allies across the country.
And that's also what we've seen in Wisconsin. This isn't the first recall. Remember we had a round of recall elections for state Senate seats and also even for the Supreme Court in Wisconsin as well. There have been a ton of resources poured in. And so the thing is that now you could finally have a situation in which someone actually faced down the public sector unions and actually won. It's not a guarantee, and I personally think a lot of conservatives are getting way to complacent about this race --
(CROSSTALK)
SALAM: -- but that's the issue. This is not a one-time battle. This has been going on for years and so far the labor unions have been winning.
BURNETT: Yes.
SALAM: They've been batting 1.00 until now.
BURNETT: My issue with this when you say this, John, I just don't get it as a citizen the recall thing. I get that you know you want a democracy. You want to vote on who goes in. But once you make that, I mean, god, we already have enough issues with people always running for re-election.
AVLON: Right.
BURNETT: Why have to say oh if I don't like you, I'm going to try to do a recall election. I mean it's kind of ridiculous.
AVLON: It's an extraordinary measure. It's happened very rarely in our past. But recently it's become a hair trigger. There's this constant impulse to relitigate election returns if you don't like the results and it's fueled by this cycle of overreach and backlash, people overreaching ideologically and then immediately provoking a backlash. But this is so high stakes. People are so invested nationally, unions and business, and that's why there's so much out of state money coming in for this --
BURNETT: Jamal, I mean I know that it's your party that's challenging it, but doesn't a little part of you say this is kind of ridiculous. This is like lawsuit-trigger -- happy America. A microcosm of how that's bad (ph).
SIMMONS: Oh, it's not a little part of me. It's a big part of me. I was against this when you know it happened to Gray Davis out in California with Arnold Schwarzenegger and I think ultimately we elect people to four-year terms. Unless they do something illegal or that's really bad and it crosses the public line, you probably don't want to have a recall election. And so let's make the hurdle to do this very hard. The danger here though I think from what Reihan was saying a bit ago, and I don't think if Governor Walker were to win, the Republicans should not take this as a mandate to go around the country and try to implement this. The last thing we need is to have these pitched battles around the country about how we fix this because we've got real work to do to limit our spending, create more growth and create more revenue to balance these budgets.
BURNETT: Well some places, Reihan, it hasn't ended up in this sort of a public disaster. I mean Chris Christie took on teachers unions in New Jersey and scored a lot of victories and now sort of they're kind of shaking hands.
SALAM: Well that was a very different situation, partly because in New Jersey Chris Christie knew that he didn't have the leverage frankly to seek structural reforms. But if you look at a state like Virginia, Democrats in Virginia have not fought the fact that there are no collective bargaining rights for state employees there because governors, mayors, other state officials, they like having the flexibility in order to change the way they deliver public services.
So the issue is that really there are many states in which you don't have these collective bargaining rights and also the federal government, Barack Obama passed a two-year wage freeze, a unilateral wage freeze for federal employees. You could not have done that in Wisconsin before these reforms.
BURNETT: Right.
SALAM: And actually even now he couldn't do that.
BURNETT: Right.
SALAM: So actually President Obama has a ton of flexibility.
BURNETT: Interesting point, by the way --
(CROSSTALK)
SIMMONS: The point that I'm making that you've actually got -- you've actually got Democrats who want to take on some of these problems too. I just don't think we should get into a big partisan battle over this after this recall election.
BURNETT: Right, interesting. As you said, the president is the one who put in those wage freezes. I think a lot of people watching may be surprised to hear that but yes both sides of the aisle are focused on cutting some of those costs. And the big question in all of this is what does the Wisconsin election mean about how the state is going to vote, perfect time to show off John King and our new map, the battleground states.
And John, I know -- I heard you talking saying look Wisconsin has always gone one way for a very, very long period of time. How pivotal is Wisconsin this year? Could it swing if Walker wins a big victory Republican?
JOHN KING, HOST, "JOHN KING USA": It could, yes because he won in 2010. If he wins again now in 2012, it tells you there's a Republican tide, maybe Republican building. But first let's do that history. This is the 2008 map. I'm going to circle Wisconsin right there. President Obama carried it. Let's go back 2004, John Kerry carried it. 2000, Al Gore carried it. 1996, Bill Clinton carried it.
1992, Bill Clinton carried it. You get the point here. Even Michael Dukakis, Erin, was one of the 10 states he won. You have to go back to 1984 when Ronald Reagan won 49 states the last time Wisconsin went Republican in a presidential election, but it could change this time. We'll see what happens tomorrow. It's one of the reasons we list it as a lean Democrat, light blue in our new electoral projection.
We start with the president at 247. You need to get to 270. He's at 247, Governor Romney at 206. The dark reds are solid Republicans, light reds lean, dark reds solid Democrat, light blue leans. The question we'll have tomorrow, Erin, if Walker wins, does that mean these 10 electoral votes are in play for Governor Romney? And if they are maybe it helps him in Michigan and Pennsylvania too, Rust Belt, if those blue collar down skilled (ph) voters are sticking with the Republicans, it will give Romney some hope.
BURNETT: And John, how does your map look overall? You know you look at it -- I know you've got your for sure's and your leans. But how does the overall count look right now? Sort of what are the must- wins that would deliver it right now for Mitt Romney?
KING: It's fascinating. You mentioned asking Governor Romney is the right question because it's much easier for President Obama. If he starts at 247, if nothing else on this map changed, all President Obama would have to do is carry the state of Florida and he's the next president of the United States. He would get four more years.
So the hill is steeper for Governor Romney. Let's go back to where we start, 247 for the president to 206 for Governor Romney. How does Governor Romney get in play? First, he must win Florida. He must win Ohio. If he does that, look at that, you have got essentially a tie. Let's say for the sake of argument the president picks up the state of Virginia. He holds that in his camp. Then you're at 260-253 and who's going to decide this election under this scenario and this is not all that implausible, little states like New Hampshire, Iowa, Colorado and Nevada.
This one here because of the Latino vote, I'm going to lean it Obama for now. In a hypothetical argument, you could get into a case like this, let's say Romney takes Colorado, 266-262, what if Romney took that, 266-266, Iowa, Erin, where we all began could get there on election night. That might be where it ends.
BURNETT: Oh and you know what, John, if it were a night like that, CNN after dark would come back.
KING: I'll buy the coffee.
BURNETT: Or something stronger, all right, still OUTFRONT the president's secret wars with the man who literally wrote the book. He was accused of murdering and chopping up his victim, what the porn star said when cops finally caught up with him today, and a spectacle that happens only once in 60 years and not every 60 years either.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BURNETT: Our second story OUTFRONT the biggest kill since Osama bin Laden. "ABC News" reporting tonight that Pakistan officials say al Qaeda's number two was killed by an American drone today. As many as 17 other suspected militants also were killed. It was the third drone attack in three days and the seventh in less than two weeks. Now, this is an incredible statistic. There have been 300 airstrikes in Pakistan alone since 2004, all but 10 under President Barack Obama not George W. Bush.
That's according to LongWarJournal.com. "New York Times" correspondent David Sanger has written a book that has everybody talking about President Obama's strategy. It's called "Confront and Conceal: Obama's Secret Wars and Surprising Use of American Power". Just a couple of moments ago I asked him about our use of drones and the potential backlash.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DAVID SANGER, CHIEF WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT, NEW YORK TIMES: One of the remarkable things when I was out doing reporting for "Confront and Conceal" was I talked to U.S. officials about what are the rules under which we use drones. They said well it's pretty simple, David. They said if we're invited in by a country, we'll go use them. If it's a country like Somalia where there really isn't an operative government, we'll go use them as well, but those are really the conditions. So Pakistan, our non-NATO major ally --
BURNETT: Ally in big quotes.
SANGER: Right. Their duly elected parliament voted about a month and a half ago to ban all foreign drone strikes in their country and we say that as a country that it's the duly elected government of Pakistan, the democratically-elected government of Pakistan we want to support.
BURNETT: Right.
SANGER: Since that time we've had more drone strikes than I can count, including this big one. It's no secret that this is why the relationship with Pakistan is in such trouble.
BURNETT: And you write that President Obama will go down in history for drones. That could be a signature part of his legacy. And I'm wondering why he went this route. A lot of cynics will say, oh, well, because he campaigned on ending the wars. He's got to fight them in a way that nobody kind of notices, you know go in the back door --
SANGER: Right.
BURNETT: -- maybe that's why. But it is pretty amazing when you compare it to George W. Bush. We looked at those Pakistan numbers. I mean he wasn't doing this, President Obama is.
SANGER: When President Bush had a quiet meeting with President- elect Obama just three or four days before that switchover of power, before the inauguration in January --
BURNETT: This is a meeting you're the first to report. I mean no one -- this is --
(CROSSTALK)
SANGER: Yes, it's in the book. He said there are two programs you're going to want to make sure you maintain. One of them is drones in Pakistan; the other is one that most Americans didn't hear about until last week, which is called Olympic Games, which was the cyber operation against Iran. Now, what did these have in common? They are both part of what President Obama has come to define as his light footprint strategy, which is to say that the era of sending 100,000 troops into a foreign country, spending a trillion dollars, occupying them, breeding the resentments that come with occupation, those days are over and that the United States is going to engage in activity where it can do it from afar, where it can use its technological advantage, but not putting troops on the ground. It's a fascinating strategy. It has its limits.
BURNETT: Right and one of those limits would be technology can be copied.
SANGER: Yes.
BURNETT: We had a drone that went down --
SANGER: In Iran.
BURNETT: -- in Iran and --
SANGER: And this book tells you that it went down because it had a speedometer that told everybody it was running at 15,000 miles an hour. It wasn't really and it landed itself in Iranian territory, a little embarrassing, but --
BURNETT: So what is the risk that other people can copy, whether it be Iran or say China if Iran gives them the drone, but all of a sudden you have your whole strategy on this kind of technology, whether it be cyber or drones --
SANGER: And they can also --
BURNETT: They can mimic you.
SANGER: Mimicking is one problem. Another problem is that the United States sets up pretty strict rules about when you use these. President Obama has reviewed the drone strikes because he wants to limit when they go and do them. He has personally approved when the United States is doing cyber attacks. But other countries that get this technology may not be playing by American rules. They may be playing by their own rule.
BURNETT: What about this whole issue with Olympic Games. Now Olympic Games is, you know for those who haven't been following it's -- Stuxnet is included, which of course was the virus that slowed down centrifuges (INAUDIBLE) Iranian scientists to die. You did extensive reporting on that and John McCain has criticized you and said you've (INAUDIBLE) book now and said things that are national security. You put us at risk. What do you say to that sort of criticism? Is it fair? Did you go too far? SANGER: You know I tried to be very careful in what I did here. The Iranians learned that the United States was conducting cyber war (INAUDIBLE) strongly suspected the United States and Israel after the Stuxnet virus got out. And the book tells the story of how Stuxnet was a mistake. There had been two or three years of attacks on Iran before Stuxnet made its way out of the system because an Iranian scientist one day went in, plugged his laptop into the enrichment system (INAUDIBLE).
This virus had a small error in it. It leapt aboard his laptop. He went home. He connected to the Internet and suddenly it propagated around the world. I tried to just pull on that string because I suspected that something like that doesn't happen as a one-off event. There's got to be a bigger campaign. Olympic Games was the bigger campaign. Senator McCain has said that the revelation of that breached American national security.
I would say that the Iranians had figured out two years ago they were being attacked. This filled in the details of how the program worked. I very carefully left out of the book anything that dealt with current U.S. operations, future U.S. operations, and I say at the end of the book that I consulted with some administration officials to make sure that I was not affecting current and future.
BURNETT: All right David Sanger, thank you very much. An outstanding book and everyone, please go check it out "Confront and Conceal".
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BURNETT: All right and ahead, did New York State take us one step closer to legalizing marijuana?
And George Zimmerman's lawyer comes clean. It could be part of a secret strategy to try to win freedom for Mr. Zimmerman.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BURNETT: Our third story OUTFRONT, a chance for the best investment OUTFRONT has ever made. These glasses cost about $7. They have gotten more wear than that. That's because marijuana is front and center and today New York Governor Andrew Cuomo says he's going to decriminalize it, lowering the penalty for people caught with a small amount of marijuana, 25 grams, to a violation instead of a misdemeanor. He's got the backing of New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg which spent $75 million in arresting and jailing people carrying small amounts of weed in 2010.
So what if other states decriminalized marijuana? The U.S. could save $8.7 billion in enforcement expenditures and generate another $8.7 billion if we were to tax it. That is a heck of a lot of money just by allowing my glasses to be the real deal. That's $17.4 billion. All right, CNN contributor Paul Callan is OUTFRONT. I mean these were a great investment, that's all I got to say.
PAUL CALLAN, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: But if you drive in those, you're going to be placed under arrest regardless of whether marijuana is legalized or not.
BURNETT: I should be because let me tell you it was hard to see what was written on the screen going through my weed glasses.
CALLAN: Yes.
BURNETT: OK, so how significant is this? I mean this is a step of saying a small amount of marijuana, 25 grams. But is this going to go all the way towards decriminalizing? Is this sort of how -- is this how we go?
CALLAN: Well, this is how it starts and I think we're on that road.
BURNETT: Right.
CALLAN: Of course if New York does it, that sets an enormous precedent for other states to go along and consider it. New York kind of had decriminalized small amounts in the past, but it was only if it was privately held and not publicly --
BURNETT: Right, this is publicly held.
CALLAN: Yes, now you can take it out of your pocket and actually show that you have it and not be arrested --
BURNETT: But you're not allowed to actually smoke it.
CALLAN: No, you're not and -- but I don't know it's interesting how the cops were doing this in New York. What they were doing was it's legal to have it in your pocket so they would frisk you and say take out the -- take out your pockets. And then you'd have the marijuana in your hand and they'd say, well, you're publicly displaying the marijuana, you're under arrest.
BURNETT: And people were saying they were racially profiling too --
CALLAN: They were using it to do that, so Cuomo is saying, hey we have said they can possess that amount and this is just a ruse that's being used by the police to pick up people for other reasons. So we should legalize this amount up to almost an ounce for personal possession.
BURNETT: All right. Well, we'll see and then Bloomberg says you can't buy the snacks that you want if you were to do anything with it, so you know I don't know that man.
OK, still OUTFRONT in our second half, George Zimmerman, he could be forced to spend months in jail awaiting trial and his lawyer has a unique strategy to get him out. We have it.
And a porn star wanted for murder and sending body parts through the mail, what the man finally said when police caught him today.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) BURNETT: Welcome back to the second half of OUTFRONT.
We start with stories we care about where we focus on our own reporting from the front lines.
First, the trustee trying to get funds for people that had money with bankrupt firm MF Global says he's going to consider suing former CEO Jon Corzine personally in his attempts to the money back. According to the lengthy report, which is 275 pages, the trustee found that MF Global's business changed dramatically under Corzine's leadership, taking on a lot more risks by investing in European debt. The trustee is pursuing $1.6 billion worth of claims filed by people who lost money. MF Global is the biggest bankruptcy in America since Lehman Brothers.
And firefighters continue to battle the whitewater-baldy complex wildfire. About 1,200 people are now fighting the fire. It's only about 18 percent contained, 241,000 acres have burned. This is now New Mexico's biggest wildfire on report. It was caused by lightning strikes.
In a statement, the forest service says it will continue to use aircraft to try to deal with the low intensity fires that burn the fuel those lower fires are causing the blaze to spread to more forested areas.
Jury selection is set to begin tomorrow in the trial of Jerry Sandusky. The former Penn State assistant football coach who was charged with raping children. A source close to the family tells CNN that Sandusky is expected to attend court tomorrow. Earlier today, after several accusers requested their identities be protected, the judge ruled that the alleged victims' identities will not be concealed during the trial.
Ground Zero for slashing pensions in America may be in San Jose, California. Tomorrow, voters there go to the polls to vote on a pension overhaul for all city employees which could allow the city to suspend cost of living increases and require current city workers to pay more to keep their pensions or get a smaller plan.
This could be a blueprint for the rest of the country and we contacted Mayor Chuck Reed's office. He said, look, the city has successfully cut its workforce by over 25 percent. It hasn't been enough. Retirement costs have continued to soar from $73 million a decade ago to a quarter of a trillion this year.
San Jose is the tenth biggest city in this country. We'll be watching this one. It could set the stage for battles across the country.
Well, it's been 305 days since the U.S. lost its top credit rating, in part due to Washington's instability to deal with national issues of pensions, Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security. What are we doing to get it back?
Well, for the short term, lower gas prices could help. According to the EIA, a gallon of regular gasoline is now down to $3.61. That's 17 cents cheaper than a year ago.
And now our fourth story OUTFRONT: A new development in the case against the Florida neighborhood watchman, George Zimmerman. One day after being forced to return to jail, the man accused of murdering 17- year-old Trayvon Martin is in an isolated cell. But how long he'll remain there is unknown.
His defense team announced today that they're going to ask the judge for a new bail hearing. That's Mark O'Mara you can see there. You've seen him on the show, the main attorney on the case.
Zimmerman's bond was revoked last week after a judge learned that Zimmerman and his wife misstated their financial situation when they knew that they had raised more than $100,000 through online donations for his defense.
Attorney Mark NeJame has been following the case for us as well as Paul Callan. Both are OUTFRONT tonight.
Mark, let me start with you, George Zimmerman is in isolation cell tonight in Florida. His defense is asking for a new bond. I guess the question is: do you think they're likely to get it?
MARK NEJAME, CNN LEGAL CONTRIBUTOR: Well, it's purely in the discretion of the court. There's some real questions as to whether he will. Not being forthright about $115,00 can easily be argued that that puts somebody at risk of flight, which is one of the considerations the judge needs to make. And if there is a bond, it's likely going to be a million dollars or so.
I'm not convinced it's the best thing to do to have another bond hearing. It subjects the defendant to questioning by the state and since credibility is such a gargantuan issue in this case, I'm not sure it's the best move.
BURNETT: Right. And we should note, by the way, when you mentioned flight risk, Paul, when the judge said we're going to go ahead and put him in jail when he waits, they found out he has a second passport so that also added to that particular line of thinking.
There was a report, we mentioned the online defense fund that Mark said raised at least 115,000. Donations spiked today. So as that money gets higher and higher, does that affect directly the bond? The bond would keep going up and up if there was even a bond?
PAUL CALLAN, CNN LEGAL CONTRIBUTOR: Well, at some point the judge can't set a higher bond. I mean, he'll take into consideration (AUDIO GAP). If he sets a million dollars and there's a million dollars available, I mean, I think he gets out of jail. So this is helpful to him. I don't think harmful, that people are contributing to his defense.
BURNETT: Do you think he'll get out?
CALLAN: Well, I really don't know. The judge is very angry. He feels that he was deliberately misled.
BURNETT: Right.
CALLAN: And this is the way he's punishing the defendant. But on the other hand, you know, bail is supposed to be about flight risk. And it's supposed to be about whether you're a threat to the community.
He's certainly not a threat to the community and he came back voluntarily, knowing he was going to be thrown in jail.
BURNETT: Right.
CALLAN: So those two things, if I'm a judge, I'm saying, well, he's not really a flight risk.
BURNETT: Of course he does have credibility issues, though, Mark. And the defense attorney, Mark O'Mara talked about those, frankly in a way we al felt was surprisingly forthright. I just want to play a little clip of it first.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARK O'MARA, DEFENSE ATTY FOR GEORGE ZIMMERMAN: There is a credibility question that now needs to be sort of rehabilitated by explaining away what they were thinking when they did what they did, if that's what happened. And we'll address it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: Mark, is it smart to admit that you know that your client has a credibility problem and needs to be rehabilitated?
NEJAME: Absolutely. If his client has lost credibility, he surely hasn't. The judge commented about that, even Trayvon's defense team has talked about what an ethical, credible person O'Mara is. When he found out about this, he brought it to the judge's attention, which is the ethical and proper thing to be done.
As long as he maintains his credibility before the court, then his client has a modicum of a chance. If he had no credibility, then his client has no chance.
CALLAN: I have to disagree with this completely. I mean, his job -- O'Mara's job is to be an advocate for his client, and to explain how this error could have occurred. And O'Mara seems to be covering this like he's a journalist. It's like, well, maybe my client has a credibility problem.
And by the way, I'm going to have to investigate a little bit more before I tell you whether I think he's guilty or innocent. Most of the time, you see defense attorneys come out strong and say my client is innocent. It's an outrage that he's been imprisoned and, yes, this error took place but you try to come up with a reasonable way to explain it.
You don't say, well, maybe my client is a liar, you know? I don't think that helps you try a case in front of a jury.
NEJAME: May I -- if I could, though, that's one reason I don't believe that there should be a bond hearing because it's one thing to say that to the press. It's quite another that you're going to go before a court and then have your client fall on the sword, which I don't think is going to help the client at all.
CALLAN: Mark, why are we saying that to the press? Why aren't we saying to the press, you know, he made a mistake, he was in a panic situation? Why are we saying to the press, well, there's a credibility problem?
I mean that means there's a lying problem. So I don't know --
BURNETT: Or it was a lie as opposed to an oversight. Implicitly you are.
CALLAN: And there are jurors out there saying even O'Mara doesn't believe this guy.
NEJAME: That's what the reality of -- I think there's no question about it. But the fact that they have got those tapes, which are incredibly damning, there's no way around that. Him and his wife were clearly talking about $115,000.
So rather than losing his credibility and coming out beating on his chest like some defense lawyers do and having no credibility, apparently he's taken the path of saying I'm going to maintain my credibility.
I do think it's a major risk to allow the client to take the stand and have another bond hearing. I think it could blow up on him.
(CROSSTALK)
CALLAN: Well, Zimmerman goes to jail. So, that helps O'Mara a lot. I don't see it helping Zimmerman.
BURNETT: All right. We're going to hit pause there. Thanks very much to both of you.
Please let us know what you think on Twitter, whether you agree with Mark or Paul.
You got me. That's what Luka Rocco Magnotta said. That's it, those three words, "you got me" -- when he was caught in Berlin after a week-long international manhunt.
The Canadian porn actor is accused of killing a man with an ice pick and dismembering his body. It's been a horrific story that's been covered over the past week. He allegedly mailed a severed foot to the prime minister of Canada, Stephen Harper. Magnotta was found in a Berlin cafe looking at a website about himself when an officer walked up and asked him for identification.
Diana Magnay has been following the dramatic twist and turns of what truly is a bizarre case and she's OUTFRONT from Berlin tonight.
Diana, thanks very much for taking the time.
You were talking about how the Internet cafe manager had recognized Magnotta, called police. Were police already on his tail or was it just luck that this guy in the Internet cafe actually recognized him?
DIANA MAGNAY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, at this stage it appears as though it might just have been a question of luck. When he walked in just before noon today, so a little over 12 hours, walked into that Internet cafe, he didn't have any disguise on at all, he just had a pair of dark glasses on. The employee who he talked to behind the counter said he took his glasses of and he recognized him straight away from somewhere.
He thought I know this person. Obviously this is a story that's big in the national press and Magnotta's photo has been all over the place in the Internet. The man in the cafe said he was sure he recognized him from somewhere. Then he went and tried to flag down a police convoy. He said they went past al the time generally.
And he tried to flag down a police convoy. He said they went past all the time generally and he just hoped that he could stop a police car and bring them in, which is what happened.
And he said that he was observing Magnotta for about an hour. He was an hour in that Internet cafe. As you said, he was looking at news stories about himself online, without apparently a care in the world as to whether anyone sort of had him under observation, which this Internet cafe employee actually did, Erin.
BURNETT: That's pretty amazing. As we said, he only said three words, "you got me." Magnotta's words, he actually appeared on a Canadian TV show talking about his career choice, why he became a porn star.
This is just to give everyone a sense of this guy and his voice. Here he is.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LUKA MAGNOTTA, PORN STAR: Yes, you know, I really do enjoy my work. I get to meet new people all the time and, you know, I'm a people person.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: Diana, do you know, has he said anything to police since he was arrested?
MAGNAY: So far, police aren't giving any kind of information out as to what information they're getting from that questioning process. But it is interesting, we do know a lot about Magnotta, not just from this investigation but because of all the videos that he's posted of himself online. This is not a man who shied away from publicity. This is a man who has gone out to draw attention for himself. He's been dubbed a sort of narcissist by psychologists studying this case. And it's quite clear that's what he is. He's someone who craves attention. He's gone on various talk shows before, said the kind of things that he did, a peoples person. Someone who craves fame, can very easily switch to infamy if he's not getting what he wants and it looks a little as though that's what he's done.
BURNETT: It's bizarre what we've seen as he's done, you know, mutilating someone in that way, obliterating a body. Are they going to -- is it possible from what you're hearing and what they're looking that he could be linked to other murders? People have talked about whether, here's someone who does that, you don't do that one time.
MAGNAY: Well, this is a very strange man. I mean we've known that he's posted lots of video of himself killing kittens on the Internet in the past.
The police in Montreal have said, you know, this investigation is far from over. He may be apprehended but we want to make sure that he's not linked to any other kinds of homicides or any other crimes. There have been various sort of reports in the Canadian press that he might be linked to serial killers in that country also, things that he has denied publicly before this case ever came to light.
But certainly there are still many questions that will be investigated once this extradition process is going on to get him back to Canada.
BURNETT: All right. Thanks very much, Diana Magnay, reporting from Berlin tonight.
And still ahead, a plane crashes overseas, 150 people were on board, an American at the controls. His last message before the crash.
And what if your entire life had been about one thing, one thing passionately hours and hours a day and you no longer could do it? What it's like to retire at 20, OUTFRONT next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BURNETT: We're back with tonight's "Outer Circle", where we reach out to sources around the world. And we begin tonight in Mexico where 11 people were killed when gunmen opened fire at a drug rehab center. The attack took place in an area of northern Mexico where violence between drug cartels is on the rise.
Rafael Romo is following the story. I asked him who was to blame.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RAFAEL ROMO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Erin, Mexican officials don't have a motive yet. What I can tell you is that this is not the first massacre in a rehabilitation center in this part of Mexico. There have been at least five other attacks in the past three years. In one attack in June of 2010, victims were lined up and shot indiscriminately by their attackers. In previous cases, attackers were looking for members of rival drug cartels hiding there. Other killings were retaliations against former gang members.
Torreon is located in the Mexican border state just southwest of Texas, a region where drug violence has increased in recent years, fueled by a turf war between two major criminal organizations, the Sinaloa cartel and Los Zetas -- Erin.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: Thanks to Rafael.
And now to Nigeria where rescue crews continue to search for bodies after the horrific plane crash yesterday in a densely populated neighborhood about 10 miles from the airport in Lagos. All 153 people on board died. At least 10 more were killed on the ground but frankly we don't even know the number given the situation, how crowded it was.
Airline officials said the American pilot radioed that he was in trouble just moments before the crash.
Vladimir Duthiers is in Lagos and I asked him what else he could tell us about the American pilot and the passengers.
(BEGIN VIDSEO CLIP)
VLADIMIR DUTHIERS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Erin, Dana Air officials are not saying much about the passengers or the crew of this flight. We do know that there was an American piloting this airplane. We don't know much more than that.
The State Department has issued a statement saying that there were American citizens on board this flight but even they have not broken out the numbers for us. What we do know is this plane rolled off the assembly line in 1990, first for Alaska Airways. There were some incidents the last couple of years but nothing catastrophic until this Sunday, Erin.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: A horrible story.
All right. Now, check in with Anderson for a look at what's coming up on "A.C. 360" -- Anderson.
ANDERSON COOPER, HOST, "A.C. 360": Hey, Erin.
We're keeping them honest tonight on the program. Romney made the bankrupt Solyndra plant a campaign stop recently, pointing to the president's use of government money as a free market failure. And keeping them honest tonight, then-Governor Romney pushed for Massachusetts to invest in green energy. Several that did, several of the companies, they too went bankrupt. We'll speak with James Carville and Alex Castellanos about that.
Also child singing for his church gets a standing ovation. The words the child sings, well, it might surprise you. All about gay people not going to heaven. Ain't no homos going to make it to heaven, the child sings, as the church erupts in applause and the standing ovation.
We send Gary to speak with members of that Apostolic Truth Tabernacle in Greensburg, Indiana. See what he could find out. All that and the "Ridiculist" and a lot more tonight on "360," Erin.
BURNETT: Thank you.
Our fifth story OUTFRONT, a surprise announcement. Olympic gymnast and gold medalist Shawn Johnson ending her comeback quest and retiring at age 20. Johnson was dubbed America's sweetheart. She won a gold and two silvers at the 2008 Beijing Games and has been in training for the London Olympics. She's even starring in some commercials leading up commercials lead ugh up to the games.
But a chronic knee injury is dashing her dreams. She tells her story in her new book, "Winning Balance," which out tomorrow and she's made this decision over the weekend.
Shawn Johnson is OUTFRONT front from her hometown of Des Moines.
And, Shawn, thank you so much for coming on and talking about this decision. It must have been just incredibly grueling and hit you in the heart.
How did you make the choice to say I'm not going to do it?
SHAWN JOHNSON, GYMNAST: Yes. It was definitely one of the hardest decisions I've ever had to make. Being professional athlete, you know, having that kind of creative part of my life over with is surreal. I don't think it's settled in yet.
But it came to a point where my body couldn't take anymore and kept telling me I had to kind of face the signs and kind of finally accept the pain and say it wasn't going to happen.
BURNETT: It's got to be hard. A lot of people will be looking at you now saying gosh, she's 20 years old. She has her whole life ahead of her. You do.
But at the same time you spent, what, 15 or 16 years of your 20 in the gym going this. And I can't imagine it's any easier when you're 20 or 80 to have your whole life change.
I mean, what are you going to do?
JOHNSON: That's a good question. I don't know what to do. Any normal day I'd tell you I practice at 2:30. When 2:30 comes around, I'm going to be pretty lost. I'm not really sure yet. Still trying to figure out what is next. First and foremost, I really want to go to the London Games. Even though I can't compete, I want to go and cheer on my teammates. I've grown up with these girls. They're like sisters to me.
If I can't be on the podium competing, I'll cheer my head off for them.
BURNETT: I'm curious just how you'd respond if I said people look at the sport scene say that girls that do it, they can't grow and their bodies can't develop and they do so much damage to themselves that they pay for their entire lives.
Is it worth it? Is it a sport that's healthy for little girls, would you say? At the level you competed, that all in completely overwhelming level?
JOHNSON: I don't know. I am biased. I love gymnastics.
I definitely see it as there are flaws. There's a lot of times when you see young girls being pushed to their absolute physical and mental limit. But I think you would see that in any sport. I don't know if I could see in the future my daughter going through it, but then again, my mom's asked me that many times. You know, if we went back in time, do I wish they would have put me in a different sport and I say absolutely not.
BURNETT: What about you, Shawn? You're at a point where you have to decide college or I don't know. I mean, you were "Dancing with the Stars," you won. Right. That's a tough thing to do.
A lot of people have talked about you as America's sweetheart. People can see why. Career in Hollywood or what? What's your dream? For you to say five years Shawn Johnson is doing what? What do you want it to be?
JOHNSON: In five years hopefully, I'll be graduating college. I'm going to take one more year to kind of let everything die down and get ready to move away and go to college, and just trying to be a somewhat normal college student. I've had that on my list ever since I was little. My parents are going to make sure that happens. That's on the checklist.
But as for career, I have no idea. I don't even know what I'm going to be doing tomorrow right now because my plans have changed a little bit. But I'm excited to see what opportunities are going to arise and where I'm going to go next.
BURNETT: Well, you know what? That's a totally normal answer. That's what a 20-year-old should say. So good for you.
Shawn, thank you so much. And good luck.
JOHNSON: Thank you so much. Too.
BURNETT: All right. More than 4,000 torches have been lit in countries all around the world all for one woman. We'll tell you about it next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BURNETT: Sixty years is a long time. That's how long Queen Elizabeth II has been on the throne. The diamond jubilee celebration you've been hearing about is in full swing -- carriage processions, royal barge, huge crowds. And there was a concert featuring Paul McCartney, Tom Jones.
There she is. This is a big deal for Britain. The queen is the second longest serving monarch in British history, just three years and 97 days behind Queen Victoria's record reign. But it's not just a big deal in the U.K. Subjects around the world are joining in celebration, because even though we associate her with England, Scotland, and Wales, she stretches much, much further.
The queen is also head of state in 16 other countries. That's the British empire for you, the head of the commonwealth, an organization of 53-member countries. To celebrate her 60 years, more than 4,000 beacons were lit in those countries around the world today. The first in new Zealand, Australia, and Tonga. The last by the queen herself at the concert at Buckingham Palace.
But it's also a significant milestone for the history books, because Queen Elizabeth is the second longest current reigning monarch in the world. Only behind -- we always try to surprise you people -- Thailand's Rama IX. He's been on the throne for more than 65 years.
Now, of course, both of them have a long way to go if they want to top the word's longest serving monarch ever. That would be Sobhuza II, the paramount in chief and later king of Swaziland. He ruled his country for more than 82 years.
By the way, on the Britannica, because I thought it would be appropriate to check out facts there on the Britannica encyclopedia. He apparently also had 500 children and 70 wives. Well, you learn something new every day.
Thanks so much for joining us. We always appreciate it. We'll see you back here, same time, same place tomorrow on CNN.
"ANDERSON COOPER 360" starts right now.
