Return to Transcripts main page
Erin Burnett Outfront
Protesters Gathering Outside of Trump Rally; Trump, Cruz About to Speak Ahead of Crucial Primary; CNN Poll: 91 Percent of GOP Voters Say Trump is Likely Nominee; Cruz: "Nobody is Going to Get to 1,237"; Countdown to Indiana Primary. Aired 7-8p ET
Aired May 02, 2016 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[19:00:10] ERIN BURNETT, CNN HOST: OUTFRONT next, breaking news, protests growing outside a Trump rally in Indiana tonight, on the eve of the most consequential primary election yet. We're live on the scene.
And it is do or die for Ted Cruz's campaign. Can he stop Donald Trump? A one-on-one interview with Cruz coming up OUTFRONT.
Plus, how Donald Trump is turning Carly Fiorina's on-stage tumble into a slam on the Cruz campaign. You have to see this to believe it. Let's go OUTFRONT.
And good evening. I'm Erin Burnett. OUTFRONT tonight, we begin with the breaking news. Protesters gathering outside a Donald Trump rally. This is his last rally in Indiana before voters head to the polls. We're monitoring this when he begins speaking, Indiana the truly most important state so far. Literally do or die for Ted Cruz's campaign hopes. The possible king-maker state for Donald Trump. The two candidates are holding dueling rallies in the Hoosier State in this hour.
Trump is about to take the stage in South Bend. Cruz expected on stage shortly in Indianapolis. And both of them are trying to make their closing arguments, trying to get this down to the wire. The stakes could not be higher for both of them. The front-runner today sending this message to his bitter rival.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: If we win Indiana, it's over. It's over. They're finished. They're gone. They're gone.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: Now, that comes as Cruz is under increasing pressure. Not just from Donald Trump, but from Trump supporters. So, here's what happened earlier today. Cruz got in a seven-minute face-off, a seven minute face-off with the Trump supporter who showed up to protest one of Cruz's events.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. TED CRUZ (R-TX), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: And I'm running to be everyone's president, those who vote for me --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We don't want you.
CRUZ: You're entitled to your view, sir. And I will respect it --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do the math. Kasich's dropped out. It's your turn. Take your own word. Time to drop out, sir.
CRUZ: When Donald doesn't get to 1,237 --
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Donald is going to get to 1,237. He's going to get more than 1,237.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: And that went on for seven minutes. Jim Acosta is traveling with the Trump campaign. He is OUTFRONT in South Bend tonight where we begin. And Jim, you've been talking to the Trump campaign. We just heard Donald Trump say, if he wins tomorrow, they're gone. They're gone. You know, look, he's been confident before. But really conveying a real sense of confidence tonight.
JIM ACOSTA, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yes. The confidence level is perhaps at an all-time high right now, Erin. The Trump campaign believes it is closing in on a knockout punch for Ted Cruz. And potentially locking up this domination sooner than a lot of people expected. A top campaign official I talked to earlier today said if we win in Indiana, this are a quote, "We can get to over 1,400 delegates." This official went on to say Cruz can stay in this race, but his money will go away. He will start thinking about his future. So, that's what they thinking inside the Trump campaign. That's the optimistic view.
But it's hard to argue that that kind of thinking is wrong at this point. Today in the sports-crazy state, Trump picked up another high- profile endorsement, former Notre Dame Football Coach Lou Holtz, that alone with the backing of Hoosier Indiana basketball legend, Bobby Knight, that is as good as gold in this sports-crazy state. And even the state's governor, Mike Pence, who has endorsed Ted Cruz, Erin, has also had good things to say about Donald Trump. That is what happens when a candidate gets close to becoming a party's presumptive nominee. Some of the top figures in the party start hedging their bets. Now, it was once thought this GOP nomination fight would go all the way to California end of June.
But a top Trump official says a big win in Indiana simply changes the math. They may not clinch the nomination here in Indiana, but it may force as this official believes, Ted Cruz to start doing some hard thinking. Now, we are in South Bend. The crowd is packed in here. They're waiting for Donald Trump to come out here. But Erin, this is also, as you know, the home of Notre Dame. But if the polls are right, Trump will not need the luck of the Irish tomorrow. He's looking pretty good at this point in the polls -- Erin. BURNETT: All right. Thank you very much, Jim Acosta. Interesting
song, by the way, playing behind Jim Acosta. You can always get what you want, but sometimes if you try, sometimes you might just get what you need.
Well, Sunlen Serfaty is travelling with the Cruz campaign, obviously Trump is hoping that that will resonate with Cruz supporters. But meanwhile, Cruz is at that rally in Indianapolis trying to fight for every vote himself.
Sunlen, how clear is it within the Cruz campaign that Indiana is do or die, as Donald Trump says? That if Cruz loses Indiana, it's done?
SUNLEN SERFATY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, publicly, Erin, that's not something the Cruz campaign at this point is going to admit outright. But there certainly is a lot of truth in the rhetoric in this last few days, calling this state pivotal. They really have been pointing to this state for quite some time, it's important to their path forward. And certainly, quite frankly, they're looking at the polls. And the polls just are not very good for them right now. So there is a sense of unease and concern on part, going into tomorrow. And it's just -- really remarkable both today on the campaign trail, his last day on the campaign trail here in Indiana.
What Senator Cruz faced. Instead of focusing on his closing message, he was spending a lot of time and a lot of energy really beating back questions about his path forward, about his standing in the polls. And I thought it was notable that those questions were not only coming from reporters, but they were coming from voters. And you referenced that really remarkable seven-minute exchange that Senator Cruz had with those Trump supporters going out of his way approaching him. It really speaks to the shift in tone, and the narrative around his campaign right now, Erin, that he's fighting against.
[19:05:41] BURNETT: All right, Sunlen, thank you very much.
And OUTFRONT tonight, my panel there will going to be with us for the entire show tonight. Charles Blow, columnist for the "New York Times." John Avlon, editor-in-chief for "The Daily Beast." David Gergen, former presidential adviser. Marc Lamont Hill, political commentator. Barry Bennett, Donald Trump senior political adviser. Kellyanne Conway, president of a pro-Cruz Super Pac. Matt Lewis of "The Daily Caller" and Scottie Nell Hughes, a Trump supporter.
Barry, let me start with you. You heard Jim Acosta saying sort of an unprecedented level of confidence from the Trump campaign which is saying something.
BARRY BENNETT, DONALD TRUMP SENIOR POLITICAL ADVISER: Yes.
BURNETT: But he has been a little bit more careful in front of some states. If he wins big tomorrow, if he thinks he will, is it over?
BENNETT: It is. I mean, three weeks ago, we were counting any delegates from Indiana.
BURNETT: Really? None.
BENNETT: And tomorrow night we're going to do very, very well. Very, very well.
BURNETT: What do you say to that, Kellyanne? Three weeks ago counting on none now. And when you look at the polls, the polls may be wrong but you've got Ted Cruz behind 15 points right now.
KELLYANNE CONWAY, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: According to one poll which is an outlier. As was the Cruz plus 13 poll that seemed like an outlier also. So, you have one poll Cruz plus 13 late last week, and then you have the Wall Street Journal NBC poll. Trump plus 15. A 28- point difference. The truth was probably somewhere in between. But to Barry's point, I think the Trump campaign does the best job of all in playing the expectations game. Like we didn't expect to win Wisconsin, so we didn't. We expected to not do as well in northeast. We did even better than we thought.
BURNETT: But they're doing this before the votes. That's a little different than they had recently.
CONWAY: This time. This time. And there's no question that when certain people in the parties smell momentum and smell inevitability, they want to lean into that. I think make amends with Mr. Trump and his campaign since they've had nasty things to say for the better part of ten years about him. But at the same time, you know, if you're on the ground in Indiana, as I have been and I do work for Governor Pence as well there, it's a state where people don't like to lift their head above sea level. They like to -- they like to go out, the ground game looks great, the rallies are good for Cruz. I just think that I wish he would not be part of the Stop Trump Movement. He should be part of the pro-Cruz movement.
BURNETT: Well, that's been a big issue. Haven't been able to create that momentum.
CONWAY: Create Trump supporters that way, then you know, you're engaging with it, you're operating from a position of the second guy. I think he should be part of the pro-Cruz movement, not part of the --
BURNETT: So you all saw, you know, I mentioned the heated battle that Cruz got into with the Trump supporter who showed up at one of his events. He spent seven minutes arguing with the Trump protester which may say something about his state of mind. Trump then quickly incorporated the incident into his stump speech and here's how he did that, Scottie.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Is that guy here with the sunglasses? I don't know if he's here or seven. But whoever he is, I thought he was very cool. I thought him and his friends. Because they are not going to be buffaloed by lies.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: I don't know what buffaloed means.
(LAUGHTER)
What is this word, buffaloed? But Scottie, I mean, this shows a level of confidence. By Trump.
SCOTTIE NELL HUGHES, DONALD TRUMP SUPPORTER: Exactly. When we talk about the angry, frustrated American, we talk about those that are living in Indiana. They were just announced, 1,400 jobs with carrier's closing. This is a state that has been heart very hard economically as their number one job industry is the auto industry.
BURNETT: Right.
HUGHES: And it's been extremely hard. These folks are working two or three jobs and they're upset. And we're seeing them in record turnout for Mr. Trump starting an early voting and especially tomorrow, going into tomorrow. And I think what we saw today, the reaction between Senator Cruz and that one person was exactly really what's happening across the people in Indiana right now.
BURNETT: And John, on that point, I mean, Ted Cruz spending seven minutes arguing with a protester. That's not a position you want to put yourself in.
JOHN AVLON, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: No, that's not a position of strength. You know, you want to be, you know, politics as in sports, offense is the best defense. And when you're spending seven minutes, you're tired, not in your "A" game. You know, Scottie made a good point about the underlying economics and the sense of frustration and unequal distribution in the great recession. There is no questions that's fueling a lot of the frustration in the campaign. I can only say, can you imagine if the bailout hadn't happened, how much worse it would be?
CONWAY: Remember -- '08 went for Obama.
AVLON: That's correct.
CONWAY: And there is a traditional red state and always went for Obama. These folks are looking for a change.
AVLON: No, well, I think the important point is, actually, they're looking for a little bit of security and they want an advocate. And that's where I think a lot of people have been feeling politically homeless. Because of the unequal recovery in the great recession. And what Trump has done, a very good job up, is channeling that frustration. But the problem is, you can be a vehicle for channeling frustration, but if you're not offering a real solution at the end of the day, it's all going to end in tears, folks.
[19:10:05] BURNETT: Well, it's interesting though. I mean, and I was laughing about this song that you were hearing behind Jim Acosta. But you can't always get what you want but if you try sometimes you might just get what you need.
(LAUGHTER)
MATT LEWIS, SENIOR CONTRIBUTOR, "THE DAILY CALLER": Look, this was a very bad moment for Ted Cruz. Make no mistake. And it actually reminded me of the Joe the Plumber moment. Who knows, maybe that guy will end up on stage with Donald Trump tomorrow. But, you know, Ted Cruz was a great debater. And I think he actually scored some -- if you were you keeping score, Cruz made a couple of points that really demonstrated that Donald Trump hasn't been a consistent conservative. Has been on both sides of all of these issues. It doesn't matter. Because that guy is emblematic of a movement out there of disaffected Americans. And I think they're voting Trump tomorrow.
BURNETT: They're going to vote for Trump, and you know, Marc also on this point though, you know, this Cruz/Kasich alliance, as short lived as it may have been.
MARC LAMONT HILL, AFRICAN-AMERICAN STUDIES PROFESSOR: Yes.
BURNETT: You know, the majority of voters in the state said they didn't like it. Twenty two percent said it's going to be a crucial part of their vote tomorrow.
HILL: Absolutely. One, it wreaks of desperation, it wreaks of desperation for everyone who washed this thing. Even people who liked Kasich and Cruz today, this doesn't look so good.
BURNETT: Yes.
HILL: Voters feel like Donald Trump is being now thwarted, he is being blocked, he is being obstructed. And when voters feel like that, I think they go more intensely to the polls to support Donald Trump. And that's what's happening right now.
BURNETT: And David Gergen, final word here. In terms of Indiana tomorrow, do you think it's going to be the big win? The overall delegates? You heard Barry saying three weeks away, they were counting on none. Now, they went off --
DAVID GERGEN, FORMER PRESIDENTIAL ADVISER: There is going to be a big win.
BURNETT: Uh-hmm.
GERGEN: And if it's anywhere five to ten points, it will be over. You know, there's the delegate game and there's the momentum game. And right now, we're into momentum. And collectively, the country is increasingly coming to the view, this is going to be a Hillary versus Trump campaign, fall campaign. And preparing for that, and there is going to be an awful lot of pressure on Ted Cruz. If he loses tomorrow, there's been a lot of pressure from state party chairman. It's time to get out, time to unite. Trump now has this. Basically, within his grasp. And I think the momentum -- everything that Ted Cruz has tried to do, all the Hail Marys this past week, they haven't worked.
BURNETT: Right. And of course, he did say he's in it until the end as long as he is viable. And of course what that means is a very crucial question.
All right. All of you staying with me. Next, Trump and Cruz obviously with these dueling rallies, we're anticipating Donald Trump coming to the stage, Ted Cruz coming in moments. If Trump wins Indiana, is it really over? While this does come now not just a momentum but to the map. And we have those numbers for you, next.
Plus, Carly Fiorina's -- this was unbelievable. How Donald Trump is seizing that moment. Yes, she's not there anymore. That's what happened.
Plus, five years since America caught the world's most wanted terrorists. New explosive details about the night of the raid and exactly what happened. For the first time tonight, you'll see it OUTFRONT.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[19:16:08] BURNETT: Breaking news tonight. The Republican race for president. Live pictures out of Indiana, where Donald Trump and Ted Cruz both will be speaking momentarily with dueling rallies. They're last major events before Indiana's make or break primary where the polls open in just hours. A new CNN poll out moments ago showing 91 percent of Republican voters now believe Donald Trump is a likely GOP nominee. And our new delegate numbers show Trump is inching closer to the magic number. Ted Cruz, though, not making it easy for him with wins in states that Donald Trump has already won. You scratch your head. You say how.
Well, Tom Foreman knows. And Tom, so what is the latest on this really frankly crucial delegate count?
TOM FOREMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Erin, on the main delegate numbers, it's easy to see. Look at this. Donald Trump is steadily closing in there, he's past the 1,000 mark. He now needs 235 more delegates to seal the deal. But what is Ted Cruz doing? Exactly what you described. He is playing at the shadow primary, as they call it. And he did it again over the weekend in Arizona and Missouri, and in Virginia. The shadow primary is the goal of trying to make sure that the people who actually serve as delegates include many of your loyalists. So why would that matter?
Well, let's look at Virginia, for an example here. Donald Trump won this state handily back in March. He got more than two-to-one, the votes that Cruz received back there. But Cruz has been working there, as he has in other places, to try to make sure his loyalists are fulfilling the role of delegates here. Let's look at one small groups. There are 49 delegates over all. But this weekend, the party in that state met to decide on 13 at large delegates to go to this convention. If they represent the general vote in the state, as they have to by the rules there, they would break down sort of like this. Trump with the majority.
Marco Rubio with the second largest amount and then Cruz, Kasich and so on. But Cruz did such a good job working the party officials to stack this group with his supporters after they vote for Trump on the first ballot at a contested convention, as they would have to on the second ballot they could change like this. Overwhelmingly, Cruz supporters and Trump could wind up losing a state that he effectively already won. And Erin, Cruz has done this in state after state, contest after contest. And on that front, he's absolutely beating Donald Trump.
BURNETT: Uh-hmm. Which, of course, makes this -- why Donald Trump says it's not going to a second ballot, because if he does, he knows that could make a major trouble for him but I mean, that really does matter, Tom. All of this, right? If he gets to the contested convention and then Cruz gets that second ballot. And of course, he's running out of time now, because he has got to remain viable for these remaining primaries.
FOREMAN: Yes. That's right. You said the right word there. If 80 percent of the Republican primaries and caucuses are done. And Donald Trump is the winner in the majority of those. What remains, ten states out there. We've highlighted them here in yellow. This month, about 150 delegates will be decided. Indiana is the big prize that has to be decided tomorrow. Next month, about 300 more will be decided. California is the big state to decide there. All Donald Trump has to do is get slightly more than half of the delegates in those ten remaining states, Erin, and it's all over. It doesn't matter what Ted Cruz did behind the scenes or after the fact. There will not be a contested convention. Donald Trump will lock it up.
BURNETT: All right. Thank you very much, Tom Foreman. My panel is back with me. So, Kellyanne, you know, you just heard the example that Tom gave there with Virginia. Let's take Arizona. Donald Trump won it by more than 20 points. He got all 58 delegates. And now it turns out only a dozen of them that have been selected are actually loyal to Donald Trump. The rest are all Cruz. How is that by any objective stretch of the imagination, fair?
CONWAY: Ask the people who made the rules. But the rules have been in place for a while now. And I think the sound bite that Trump has been saying, the system is rigged, it's corrupt, has worked. With his supporters, Erin. Because that's part of his whole narrative. I'm the outsider, don't trust the system, it's not transparent, it works against you, not for you. But the fact is that, I think the reason Cruz stays in the race until -- unless and until Donald Trump gets to 1,237 is very simple. They feel they have an advantage when it comes to delegates and conventions. And of course, Cleveland is the biggest convention prize of the delegates.
BURNETT: Right.
CONWAY: The way they spend their weekends is going back and following the rules and trying to persuade actual delegates to support them on the second ballot.
BURNETT: Rules, though -- rules though Barry that the American public when you look at polls, people don't think that this is fair. People have bought into the Donald Trump line that the system is rigged.
BENNETT: I think that the big loser, this primary -- both of the Republican and the Democrat side is the process. The rules are horrific. Right? Real votes are supposed to matter. The people's voice is supposed to matter. Not super delegates. Or gaming systems. Or getting your friends involved. I mean, we have got to change the rules or the American people are going to be very angry.
[19:21:03] HUGHES: Let me interject quickly. Donald Trump won 70 percent of the delegates in Missouri when they went -- they had their primary. He won by two tenths of a percentage point. The race wasn't even called for a couple of days. We didn't scream and say, that's not fair, you only won by two tenths of a percentage point which usually is a recount type situation. And you walked away the 70 percent, you just have to move on to the next state.
CONWAY: But I think there's a difference though between just, you know, Ted Cruz winning or Donald Trump winning. We're finding states where Ted Cruz came in third, like in Georgia. And now he's walking away with the majority.
BURNETT: Right. Georgia is a good example.
CONWAY: So we're -- that's where the cards are -- or in Arizona. Governor Brewer, who was running for delegates.
HILL: Right. This is a basic understanding of voters that the process is Democratic. And when the person who gets the most votes doesn't win, that feels anti-Democratic.
CONWAY: So Bernie Sanders.
(LAUGHTER)
HILL: And that's why --
BURNETT: How does Bernie Sanders feel about super delegates?
HILL: Well, you know, I can't speak for Bernie per se. But what he has said is that super delegates are unfair and the process is unfair and that it's rigged. And that is he and Trump are on the same page. And most Americans feel that one person's -- one person is a super delegate. Matters as much as almost parts of an entire city or state.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: -- Andrew Sullivan.
HILL: The idea that they are in equal pain and distrust, both testimonies and Republicans, actually is false. Right? So Pew looked into this last month. Did a survey of both Democrat and Republican voters. They found that Republicans have the same level of confidence in their primary process as they had in 2000. Right? But Democrats since the very last election have lost confidence in their process by 22 percentage points. And here's the difference in that. The person who is screaming about the process being rigged on the Republican side is actually winning. So people still have confidence that the process is working.
BURNETT: Fair point, right? HILL: But the person who is screaming about the process is rigged on the Democratic side is actually losing until people have lost confidence.
BURNETT: That is a very interesting point.
HILL: It's not fair to say that there's equal opportunity kind of --
BURNETT: David.
GERGEN: Well, listen, I think what Trump is saying is, if this gets taken away from me -- if I win by three or four million votes over Cruz and then Cruz gets the nomination, that process will be rigged. And I guarantee you, if that's what happens, the number of Republicans are going to be unhappy with the process that is going to sky rocket.
HILL: It may happen then. But I mean, to say -- but to say that it is now the case is not --
BURNETT: On this point though, we do have a lot of establishment Republicans that were coming around to this. Little Marco, right? How much could Donald Trump have slammed Marco Rubio and yet it is Marco Rubio who is now saying that if Trump gets close to 1237 doesn't even get there, the nomination should still be his. He just said it on the radio today. And here he is.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARCO RUBIO (R), FORMER PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I do think it's valid to argue to delegates, look, let's not divide the party, someone here who has all these votes, very close to get 1,237, let's not ignore the will of the people or they're going to be angry.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: I mean, that's significant, John Avlon. That's Marco Rubio.
AVLON: It's very significant. I mean, on one hand, he's trying to speak a degree of common sense to unite the party. But the Republican Party right now is definitely starting to divide. People who are rationalizing the rise of the Donald and people who are going to say, you know what? I'm going to be part of the resistance. It's country over party on this one.
BURNETT: Right.
AVLON: It's going to be fascinating to see those folks who start sliding into the Donald, you know, part aside, because they want to be part of the party and power. They want to ride the gravy train, politically, professionally or financially.
BURNETT: Right.
AVLON: And that's going to be a major dividing line down the road. But whatever happens down these two thing, both parties should stay focused on the need for election reform. But we need it as a country. And don't let the short-term pain --
(CROSSTALK)
BURNETT: Before we go, let me -- you, Barry. We just heard Jim Acosta reporting the Trump campaign is telling him, you guys are going to get to 1,400. So, well beyond 1,237, and they are going to do it during the primary process. That is the first time we've heard that.
BENNETT: If we win tomorrow night, I don't know what other state we would lose.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Nebraska.
BURNETT: So you think the momentum then will come on your side with New Mexico.
BENNETT: Yes. The atmospherics have changed so much in three weeks. And there's no reason to believe that's just happening inside the borders of Indiana.
CONWAY: What's so important about Rubio talking today, he's 171 delegates. That's a nice little delegate count when you're getting this close.
LEWIS: This is what I would call a walk of shame.
(LAUGHTER)
It's despicable. But I will say, I think we need to push back against this. Look, I think you're seeing people that are going to come with their tail between their legs who said horrible things about Donald Trump --
(CROSSTALK)
-- who said that Donald Trump was, frankly, close to Lucifer, who we're now reconciling themselves. But the bigger concern that I have, is this election reform. Because the Republican Party's rules are basically premised on the -- the way the founding fathers set up this country. And it is not a direct democracy. Everybody should go read that Andrew Sullivan piece --
CONWAY: If it were working, we wouldn't objective it.
LEWIS: No, it is working.
CONWAY: It's not working. We're $19 trillion in debt. And our people don't go --
(TALKING OVER EACH OTHER)
BURNETT: -- people think that it is. All right. Thank you all for staying with me.
Next, looking at live pictures of the Ted Cruz rally about to begin in Indianapolis. Ted Cruz is OUTFRONT. An interview with him right after this.
And this Carly Fiorina tumble caught on camera. And don't worry she is OK. But we're going to tell you how Donald Trump is now capitalizing on this moment. You will hear it and see it for yourself in full.
And the GOP front-runner taking aim at Hillary Clinton for her remark about dealing with men off the reservation.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: The Indians have said that that statement is a disastrous statement and they want a retraction.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[19:30:17] BURNETT: You're looking at live pictures of Senator Ted Cruz going to be making his final pitch to Indiana voters on the eve of the most primary of his presidential campaign. He's going to be on that stage in just moments. There are 57 Republican delegates up for grabs in Indiana. Cruz needs every one of them, and, of course, then many more to stop Donald Trump completely.
Dana Bash spoke to Ted Cruz today in a special interview. Here it is.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DANA BASH, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Donald Trump only needs 47 percent of remaining delegates to win the nomination outright. You need 132 percent.
So, will you support his candidacy if he, Donald Trump, gets the delegates before Cleveland?
SEN. TED CRUZ (R-TX), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Dana, nobody is going to get to 1,237. I'm not going to get to it, but neither is Donald Trump.
Now, I'll tell you, I think Indiana is going to be a critical state in that. Indiana is voting tomorrow. And I'm encouraged that we're seeing conservatives, including especially Governor Mike Pence.
BASH: What makes you so sure he won't get the delegates? I mean, getting 47 percent of the remaining delegates isn't inconceivable at all.
CRUZ: Well, he hasn't gotten 47 percent to date. That's better than he's done. And I'll tell you --
BASH: But he sure did well last week.
CRUZ: You're right. He did well in his home state. And he did well in the adjoining states. He won five states last week. But I'll tell you, in the three weeks that preceded that, I won five
states in a row, starting with Utah and then North Dakota, and then Wisconsin, and then Colorado and then Wyoming -- 1.3 million people voted in those states. And, by the way, I earned more votes in Wisconsin than Donald Trump did in New York.
Now, I get that the media found New York the most important election in the history of the universe.
BASH: Well, also, Pennsylvania. I mean, that was -- it was a place. But do you see, I mean, your data-driven campaign.
CRUZ: Yes.
BASH: Do you see hard data that really is driving this message that you had that he's not going to get the delegates needed?
CRUZ: Absolutely. And I also -- I know the Republican Party. We are not -- the choice that Indiana faces tomorrow is who we are and which direction do we go.
BASH: Governor, when you endorsed Senator Cruz last week, you had almost as many nice things to say about Donald Trump as Senator Cruz. If he isn't successful tomorrow here -- in Indiana, and Donald Trump does become the nominee, will you support him?
GOV. MIKE PENCE (R), INDIANA: Well, I made it very clear, I'm going to work my heart out to make sure that we elect a Republican president in the fall of 2016.
BASH: Even if it's Donald Trump.
PENCE: Look, I'm going to support the Republican nominee, because Indiana needs a partner in Washington, D.C. But my choice in the Indiana primary is Ted Cruz, because I believe he's a principled conservative who like me, cherishes and has fought for the Reagan agenda.
BASH: The governor just said he's going to support the Republican nominee, even if it's not you. You were asked I think nine times over the weekend to say what you just heard the governor say next to you, that you will support the Republican nominee, even if it's Donald Trump.
CRUZ: Why is the media so desperate to get conservatives to up our principles and support Donald Trump? And the answer is very simple. Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton are both rich New York big government liberals.
BASH: I understand that the media are an easy target. I get that. But if you were way ahead right now and Donald Trump were behind, I would be asking the exact same question because --
CRUZ: I'm curious, Dana, when I won five states in a row three weeks ago, were you asking Donald Trump, are you going to suspend your campaign?
BASH: We were in a different place with the number of delegates.
CRUZ: You just said if I had been winning, you would be saying that.
BASH: What I meant was, if you were -- if you had 47 percent of the remaining delegates to get left, and he had 132 percent, I would be asking the same question. But the broader point is, you know, you all talk about uniting the Republican Party. By definition, aren't you helping to continue to divide it by not saying that you would support him?
CRUZ: Exactly the opposite. Listen, I agree with Ronald Reagan when he said the Republican Party is not a fraternal order. Just get the slap an "R" on your jersey and lead the Republican Party. The reason the media wants Donald Trump to be our nominee is it represents a repudiation of conservative principles of the Constitution.
BASH: One last question. Can't let you go before asking about the fun that President Obama had with you, calling the basketball hoop a basketball ring, here in Hoosier Country, which exactly a welcome for people who love their basketball. He said, "What else is he going to talk about? Baseball sticks? Football hats?"
CRUZ: Well, look, I give the president kudos. He was supposed to give a speech that was a comedy routine and he did. Listen, I had a slip of the tongue. Instead of saying rim, I said ring. I played two-and-a-half years of basketball in high school. You know, maybe President Obama has seen my vertical, which is about three inches.
[19:35:02] And I never got anywhere near the rim, so it was always this distant thing. I could shoot from the outside but never got close to the rim.
BASH: Sounds like maybe you should have a one-on-one game with the president.
CRUZ: I think he's got more skills on the basketball court than I do.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BURNETT: Now, Dana, obviously ending there on a bit of a humorous note and, of course, he was crediting the president for his jokes on Saturday night. But obviously, he was very defensive in that interview. Dripping off the camera.
What was it like in person? What was his demeanor like there?
BASH: You know, it was not unlike other interviews that I've done over the years with candidates on the eve of a very important contest. And this is here in Indiana crucial. And it could really mean the end of his -- technically, the end of his campaign or not. And it was pretty obvious -- I think you've sort of gleaned that as a viewer watching it, and certainly was for me standing there with him, that he understands how high the stakes are in Indiana. And in large part, it's because he made them this way, Erin. He put
so much emphasis on Indiana. He made this -- cut a deal with John Kasich to make this a one-on-one race that he has been asking for with Donald Trump. He's made the point. This is more filter terrain for him when it comes to the conservative electorate.
So, the stakes could not be higher for him, especially as I toss it back to you, tell you that I've talked to sources in the Never Trump movement who say that they don't think that they really can have the resources to keep going, the outside groups if he doesn't do well here.
So there is a lot of pressure on him. And he's smart enough to know that.
BURNETT: A very significant statement there. Dana, thank you.
My panel is back with me.
Kellyanne, you heard the exchange there between Ted Cruz and Dana, when she said, look, will you support Donald Trump if he's the eventual nominee? Obviously, the governor of Indiana said yes. He said yes last week.
Why won't Ted Cruz say yes?
KELLYANNE CONWAY, PRESIDENT, KEEP THE PROMISE, A PRO CRUZ SUPER PAC: Well, I say yes. But Donald Trump didn't insult my wife. So I think it's very personal for Senator Cruz. I do. I do. I think that was an even -- even Donald Trump came close to actually saying I'm sorry and I made a mistake and I apologize by saying I shouldn't have retweeted that. It took a while.
(CROSSTALK)
CONWAY: Erin, I do think that's very personal. And I'm with Governor Pence. I will support the eventually nominee. I'm not part of the Stop Trump movement. I'm part of the Stop Hillary movement or never Hillary movement. So --
BURNETT: And the pro-Cruz movement, as you say.
CONWAY: It's very different.
But look, in the fog of war, heated battle, I don't fault Senator Cruz at all before voters go to the polls in acting like the competitor he is. I thought the end was --
(CROSSTALK)
CHARLES BLOW, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Can't we just dispense with the idea that this battle is virtually almost over? You know --
MARC LAMONT HILL, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: He only needs 132 percent --
BLOW: No, I'm -- it's over for Cruz.
HILL: I'm kidding.
BLOW: The idea -- you know, Trump only needs what our calculation, he was 235 of the remaining 500 delegates. He outperformed all of the polls in the Northeast corridor.
(CROSSTALK)
BLOW: Wait, one second. He outperformed all of the polls. Nate Cohn at "The Upshot" at "The New York Times" came out with (INAUDIBLE) he doesn't even think he needs to win Indiana any more, because he got 40 of the 57 unbound delegates in Pennsylvania.
And then while we did on the air, Nate Silver just posted -- we know Nate Silver's track record, came out with the projection that Trump is --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Not that good lately.
BLOW: But Trump is favored to win like about 83 percent to Cruz's 17 percent in Indiana. This idea that we are still in a competitive race, that Trump is not likely to hit the 1,237 is not real. It's a fantasy.
BURNETT: Let me play something else that happened today, this point of Trump is getting more and more comfortable and he seems more confident and more in his routine, even the normal. There was this moment with Carly Fiorina. And I want to emphasize while this is humorous in some ways, she is completely fine, she was not injured at all.
But here is what happened when Carly Fiorina fell when she was with Ted Cruz.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CARLY FIORINA (R), FORMER PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: The next president of the United States, Ted Cruz!
(MUSIC)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: So that happened, and then Donald Trump did something that -- whether you like him or you loathe him, on some level the -- well, just -- here's how he is portraying the incident.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Carly is perfectly nice. By the way, she fell off the stage the other day. Did anybody see that?
And Cruz didn't do anything! I was -- even I would have helped her, OK? She just went down. She went down a long way, right? And she went down right in front of him and he was talking and he kept talking. He didn't even look like -- that was a weird deal.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: All right. By the way, we don't know if Ted Cruz even saw it happen.
[19:40:02] Obviously, most likely he did not, because he would have helped her.
Nonetheless, Barry, this is Trump during this into a moment of entertainment.
BARRY BENNETT, SENIOR POLTIICAL ADVISER, DONALD TRUMP CAMPAIGN: I mean, that's not the correct way to drop the mike. You're supposed to let go, not drop yourself. It was a bad day for the advance team, at the rally. Everybody is tired. Everybody has worked really, really hard this last year-and-a-half. But it's -- yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is why Hillary Clinton has to watch out. Donald Trump is going to do this -- not that she is going to fall off the stage but every day --
BURNETT: He can turn things nobody else would think can be turn to something.
All right. And next, Donald Trump says his rallies are the safest police on earth. What Hillary Clinton is saying about that tonight.
Plus, new exclusive details about the Osama bin Laden raid. For the first time ever, the president opening up about what could be the biggest decision of his presidency.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I had been inclined to take the shot fairly early on in the discussions.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BURNETT: Welcome back. We are just hours away from the polls opening in Indiana and what Donald Trump hopes will be the Cruz campaign last stand.
[19:45:04] Trump is already trying to look ahead to the general election, slamming Hillary Clinton for saying she has experience with men, who, quote, "get off the reservation".
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: I won't even bring up the fact that the Indians have gone wild on that statement. You know that, OK? The Indians have said that statement is a disastrous statement. And they want a retraction. I'm not going to get into that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: Donald Trump going PC. Jeff Zeleny is OUTFRONT in Indianapolis.
All right. Jeff, it sounds like both Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton are trying to pivot now to the general election to fighting each other.
JEFF ZELENY, CNN SENIOR WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: No doubt, Erin. They definitely are.
And remember that woman card comment from last week? The Clinton campaign told me just a few moments ago, they raised $2.4 million in three days alone over that. So, this is a sign that this campaign is engaged. We have two phases going on here. Yes, the primary is still going on, but the general already going.
The Clinton campaign hiring campaign managers in Florida, Nevada, Ohio, Colorado, New Hampshire. Those states have all voted in the primary. They are turning the corner looking ahead.
Top aides totally me they're spending nearly all time plotting out how to game out this campaign against Donald Trump. For the Trump side of things, he's already bringing Hillary Clinton into nearly everything he says. You heard that off the reservation comment there.
So, Erin, it's an unusual part of the campaign here where the primary is still going on. You can see behind me, thousands of people have gathered here in downtown Indianapolis. Bernie Sanders fans, Bernie Sanders supporters. He may win here tomorrow. The Clinton campaign so far ahead in delegates, this campaign is moving forward toward November, regardless of what happens here in this state and the states going forward -- Erin.
BURNETT: Of course, Bernie Sanders calling that system rigged, because he could win. But yet not win.
Thank you, Jeff Zeleny.
The panel back with me now.
Marc, so now you've got Donald Trump going after Hillary Clinton for the insensitive remark off the reservation.
HILL: And I'm glad we have Donald Trump to police politically inappropriate speech. We need somebody. Who better than a Donald to do that?
BURNETT: Better step up do and do it.
HILL: Why would he do it then? That seems so odd to me, because it's a trap. It would be like Hillary --
BURNETT: It was perfect. It was perfect.
SCOTTIE NELL HUGHES, DONALD TRUMP SUPPORTER: The absurdity. Going on the stage of saying stupid things, asking for apologies, saying it on purpose to sit there --
HILL: That's one approach. Or they'll unveil another set of commercials showing Donald Trump saying even worse things even about Native Americans.
BURNETT: Now, Charles, in terms of other things, though, of course, this whole woman card issue, this is going to be front and center. He's not afraid of it. He's going to use it, she's going to fight back.
You just heard Jeff Zeleny, $2.4 million on the, quote/unquote, "woman card". That's how much she raced in just a few days.
BLOW: Right. But I think it hurts him more than it actually helps her. It may help in the fund-raising part. But there was -- I reviewed a study about this before I came in here about people showing commercials about, you know, him denigrating women and how much it actually hurt him among the people who saw those commercials.
But when, you know -- when she was, you know, kind of having commercials where she was actually playing up the fact she was a woman, it actually didn't help her. It reduced her unfavorables, but it did not increase favorable ratings. So I think what he's doing is actually shooting himself in the foot. It's actually not going to boost her as much as I think.
(CROSSTALK)
BURNETT: All right. We're going to hit pause for a moment.
Next, President Obama on one of the most important decisions of his presidency.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OBAMA: If it wasn't bin Laden, probably the cost would outweigh the benefits.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: And yet he did it. That interview, next. Plus, exclusive new details you'll hear for the first time ever about that raid, coming up.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[19:52:11] BURNETT: It has been five years since a team of American Navy SEALs killed the most wanted terrorist, Osama bin Laden.
Our Peter Bergen had an unprecedented access to the White House and to the president, learning new details that you have never heard before about his top secret operation. Here they are.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PETER BERGEN, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST (voice-over): The first helicopter went down, but the mission continued. Despite the setback, the SEAL team kept moving.
ADMIRAL WILLIAM MCRAVEN: The living quarters were barricaded. They had some steel gates that the guys had to breach to get through, had to blow down or get through. The guys on the outside swung through initially what appeared to be a door, it turned out to be a false door. The compound had been built with the express purpose of protecting bin Laden, in ways that we were not able to detect ahead of time.
We assumed that there would be some bobby trap, we assume the whole place could have been loaded with explosives. We had seen this a number of times in Iraq where an entire compound was set to detonate if allied forces came in.
So, they had to come through another entrance, they all kind of collectively got together and then moved accordingly up the three flights of stairs to get to where bin Laden was on the third deck.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: And OUTFRONT now, our national security analyst Peter Bergen. David Gergen and John Avlon are also back with me.
Now, Peter, you are one of the only people who interviewed Osama bin Laden and now, of course, you talked to the president yet again about this. You know more about Osama bin Laden and about this raid than anyone else.
What did you learn new?
BERGEN: Well, one thing is, you know, we had an unprecedented, in- depth interview with Admiral McRaven, who is the architect of the raid. And, you know, he told us about the helicopter pilot who went down, he had a conversation with the helicopter pilot before that event. The helicopter pilot said, look, if they shoot an RPG at me, or they shoot small farms fire, as long as they didn't kill me, I can land that helicopter. So, you know, they planned for this hard landing. It didn't come about quite the way they thought about it, but they went into that knowing the first helicopter in may well go down.
BURNETT: And, of course, we are hearing there about what they were preparing for in terms of the explosives, and the bobby traps, and everything else they were expecting.
BERGEN: Yes.
BURNETT: David, when you hear this and you think about the famous picture of that Situation Room where President Obama is watching all this go down, after making a decision where he went along with the minority of his advisers.
DAVID GERGEN, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: It is.
BURNETT: To go ahead with this strike.
GERGEN: He did.
I think what was interesting is one of the primary advisers was Hillary Clinton who urged him it do this. And yet when the story came out from the White House, all the tick-tock about what had happened, a lot of people around the president airbrushed her out of the story, as if she wasn't there.
[19:55:05] I think we're going to hear a lot more in this campaign about the fact that she was there and she did advise to go forward with it. And her judgment I think is quite -- I think the president gets a lot of credit, but Hillary Clinton on this, she does deserve credit too.
BURNETT: Does he see this as the greatest moment of his presidency?
BERGEN: I mean, you know, presidents make decisions on imperfect information. And, you know, it's 50-50 whether bin Laden was there. This is clearly one of his achievements.
BURNETT: Right. And as we keep saying, a very risky decision that he made. He made it. He was right, he was willing to take that risk, John.
JOHN AVLON, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Yes, and look, this is one of the moments that we can't honor and remember enough. I mean, 9/11 was the symbolic start of the century. It's a defining aspect of our times, but there is a tendency to want to push it off to the sidelines because it seems less urgent to some respects.
But this kind of deep dive that Peter did with the president I think is a necessary reminder not only of the stakes but of the defining moment of a presidency and also a lens of which we should be viewing the selection of the next president.
BURNETT: And an incredible documentary and incredible interview, of course, all with Peter. You can see much more of his exclusive report. "We Got Him: President Obama, bin Laden and the Future of the War on Terror." It is next on CNN.
We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BURNETT: Thank you so much for joining us, as we continue to count you down to the opening of those polls in Indiana for the crucial primary.
"AC360" begins now.
