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Erin Burnett Outfront
Trump Caves On Wall Money, Agrees To Reopen Government; Trump Warns Of Another Shutdown "If We Don't Get A Fair Deal"; Congress Passes Bill To Reopen Government That Doesn't Include Wall Money; Roger Stone Indictment Reveals Trump Camp's Link To WikiLeaks; Interview with Democratic Senator Richard Blumenthal of Connecticut; Interview with Republican Congressman Adam Kinzinger of Illinois. Aired 7-8p ET
Aired January 25, 2019 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
WOLF BLITZER, ANCHOR, CNN: 11:00 a.m. Eastern, Sunday morning, Reliable Sources, we will all be watching, Brian.
BRIAN STELTER, CNN: Thank you.
BLITZER: Thank you very much. Erin Burnett OutFront starts right now.
ERIN BURNETT, ANCHOR, CNN: OutFront next. The President caves, ending the 35 days shutdown with a deal that has no money for the wall. Plus, more breaking news, Roger Stone indicted. The Special Counsel making the most direct link yet between the Trump campaign and WikiLeaks' stolen emails. And Stone and Trump, a relationship that goes back for decades. Will Trump's loyal friend lead to his downfall, let's go OutFront.
And good evening, I'm Erin Burnett, OutFront tonight, no wall just a cave. The breaking news, President Trump getting ready to sign a bill reopening the government and the House has just passed the bill, so now it can go to the President for him to sign it, a bill to begin paying the 800,000 workers who for 35 days have got nothing, no money, and that is also exactly what the President has now gotten for his wall, nothing. No money.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, President OF THE UNITED STATES: I am very proud to announce today that we have reached a deal to end the shutdown and reopen the federal government. In a short while I will sign a bill to open our government for three weeks until February 15th. I will make sure that all employees receive their back pay very quickly or as soon as possible. It'll happen fast.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: So President Trump is temporarily reopening the government, so he and Democrats can discuss border security funding which is exactly what Nancy Pelosi and the Democrats have been demanding since the shutdown began.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. NANCY PELOSI, D-CA, HOUSE SPEAKER: Let's have that discussion after we open up government and then let us get to work.
REP. MIKIE SHERILL, D-NEW JERSEY: We passed a bill so that we could open government up for three weeks in order to start to negotiate border security.
REP. BENNIE THOMPSON, D-MISSISSIPPI: Let's put the people back to work and then let's sit down and talk.
REP. AYANNA PRESLEY, D-MASSACHUSETTS: Shutdown is not policy, but we can't have that debate while the government is shut down.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: Okay. Like I mean on every detail, Democrats got exactly what they wanted, they're getting it reopened for three weeks to talk about this and the President who had promised to keep the government closed until he got his wall money didn't get a dollar. I mean, listen to him. His words.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: I can tell you, it's not going to be open until we have a wall, a fence, whatever they'd like to call it. I'll call it whatever they want.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: Okay. Not only that, this word cave, the President repeatedly tweeted he wasn't going to cave. It is his word not mine. "We will not cave." "No cave." "President supporters do not want him to cave." "I won't." Until he did. And the right wing of his own party tonight are not beating around the bush, they're mad. Look at the sites, the Trump reads and quotes frankly on his Twitter account regularly, Drudge, no wall funds, Breitbart, government open, and no border, no wall - I'm sorry, and border, no wall, and the Washington Examiner, Trump blinks, not to mention Ann Coulter, that's what she said.
Well don't worry, the President is now saying that he'll shut the government down in three weeks if he doesn't get the money by then.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: If we don't get a fair deal from Congress, the government will either shut down on February 15th, again, or I will use the powers afforded to me under the laws and the Constitution of the United States to address this emergency.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: The executive action route. When it comes to the shutdown though, it is a very tough threat to take seriously when the President just gave Democrats every single thing they wanted for nothing in return, which begs the question why did he cave today. Well, there were massive air delays around the country, air traffic controllers were calling in sick because of the shutdown.
So you are looking at maps like this with hundreds of planes in the air not enough air traffic controllers to land them and threatened to bring the whole country to a halt, some airports LaGuardia, New York, had to stop all flights altogether. It was also the day Mueller arrested Trump's longtime confidant Roger Stone in the early hours of this morning charging him in the Russia investigation with lying, obstructing justice and witness tampering. We're going to have much more on that huge development this hour. I want to begin though with Kaitlan Collins live outside of the White House tonight.
And Kaitlan, why did the President cave today?
KAITLAN COLLINS, WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Erin, two things played a factor in President Trump's decision to sign this short-term spending bill which he's expected to do shortly. One is pressure, not just from those air traffic delays that you saw there that White House officials were becoming increasingly worried about, but also from people like Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell who is telling the White House he wasn't going to be able to hold the line for Republicans much longer and they feared that some of those Republicans could jump ship and go with Democrats to sign a short-term spending bill, because they were so frustrated by this shutdown.
[19:05:04]
The second thing, Erin, is really they felt like they were out of options. The President had already given an oval office primetime address. He had visited the border, he shut down the government for 35 days and he even cancelled the House Speaker's trip to Afghanistan, yet none of that yielded anything that show Democrats were willing to talk to the President and either even edge a little bit on funding his border wall. So that is how they felt.
Now, the President is expected to sign the short term spending bill here soon, but the White House has called a lid, which means we're not going to see the President sign this short-term spending bill 24 hours ago, just 24 hours ago. Sarah Sanders, the Press Secretary said in a statement the President would not sign without a large down payment for a border wall which is not included in this, but also ending this government shutdown that has not yielded the President anything but frustrated lawmakers, stressed out federal employees who weren't getting paid and worse poll numbers, Erin.
BURNETT: All right. Thank you very much, Kaitlan. I want to go now to Gloria Borger, our Chief Political Analyst, Rob Astorino, a member of the President's 2020 Re-Elect Advisory Council, and Joan Walsh, National Affairs Correspondent for The Nation.
Gloria, this is not the way a winning negotiation ends, at least it isn't the way it ends, if you're President Trump.
GLORIA BORGER, CHIEF POLITICAL ANALYST: No. I sort of missed this chapter. I was looking at the art of the deal and I kind of missed this chapter about the great negotiation that never happened here. This deal that the President got today is one that he could have gotten three weeks ago. This is what the Democrats were proposing when they said, "Just reopen the government and then let's talk about negotiating what we want to do on immigration reform afterwards."
And this is what has occurred, the President tried everything as Kaitlan was saying, Mitch McConnell warned him, "You're going to start losing your Republicans." So not only were his personal poll numbers going down, but people inside the White House were panicking that there was no way out of this and so this wasn't really a negotiation as much as it was a capitulation complete by the President.
BURNETT: I mean, Rob, no doubt he knows that, but this goes to the core of how he identifies himself, okay? He just got zero. Not only did he not get a dollar, they had said no money and we'll open for three weeks temporarily. He even agreed to three weeks.
ROB ASTORINO, MEMBER OF THE PRESIDENT'S 2020 RE-ELECT ADVISORY COUNCIL: First of all, this is premature cavillation here, okay, because three weeks from now ...
BURNETT: Premature cavillation?
ASTORINO: ... three weeks from now, we're going to be back in the same exact spot, but the President will then have more flexibility and more muscle because, okay, he's seen as the compromiser, he's cave if you want, he's given them, but he hasn't lost anything yet. He signed the bill in pencil not in a sharpie, right, so in three weeks from now ...
BURNETT: No, I don't know why I joked maybe it was a sharpie ...
(Crosstalk)
ASTORINO: ... but I'm just saying it could be a pencil because in weeks it could all be erased and we're now at the 50-yard line again. I think he's picked up a first down actually, not given up the ball, because in three weeks the Democrats if they don't come after he's said, "You know what? We're going to go big. I'm offering you a DACA."
BURNETT: But because you say he's actually has no intention of shutting down the government again, because that - he'd be frankly dumb.
ASTORINO: No, he might.
BURNETT: He's just going to do another a national emergency and say, "I'm going to build ...
ASTORINO: No. No, he might shut the government down, but if he does, the Democrats if they don't start giving something, if it's still no, no, no, then they're the ones that are going to look bad.
JOAN WALSH, NATIONAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT, THE NATION: Oh, Rob. You are good, my friend. That was good. ASTORINO: I think that's true.
WALSH: That was good. I don't think that's true one bit. I think this is a mitigated disaster for the President and for the Republican Party and it is a huge win for Nancy Pelosi. She is grateful enough not to take a victory lap today and she refused to answer questions.
BURNETT: Well, let's hope that she is able to withstand that urge.
ASTORINO: When is the State of the Union now?
WALSH: We don't know.
BURNETT: We don't have a date yet.
ASTORINO: It better be in the next three weeks.
WALSH: It's not Tuesday, that's all we know. This is a win for Nancy Pelosi. He's now going to be signing this bill in a cave and I still - I think he will sign it, but I just have thought all afternoon, Erin, about what it was like for him to get the applause from his - the toadies on his staff and then go watch TV which we know he does all day and see everyone calling it a cave, including some folks on Fox News. It's got to be a tough time day for the President.
BURNETT: I mean Ann Coulter calling him the biggest wimp in American presidential history, Gloria. And by the way, I mentioned her because when he was maybe ready to do a deal, she was one of the most influential saying, "Don't do it until you get your wall." Okay. Well, what a loyalty that is. Well, obviously, he didn't get it.
BORGER: Imagine if you're a Senate Republican, and you voted for that original bill which passed the Senate and you were ready to say, "Okay, this is done." And then Ann Coulter and Rush Limbaugh goes on the radio and the President pulls out the rug from under you and you're mad about it.
BURNETT: By the way, from under, his own Vice President who had put the deal on the table, so go ahead.
BORGER: Exactly. And you're mad about it, so the question is now what happens in three weeks, okay, as you're talking about. It is possible they reached an impasse again. I think it's probably more likely that both the Democrats and the Republicans do not want to go through this again.
[19:10:04]
My big question mark is not the people in Congress quite honestly, because they already figured out a deal. It's the President of the United States. And if he keeps getting this kind of criticism from the right, I don't know what he's going to do. If he still insist on wall, I don't see where they go.
BURNETT: I mean, what does he do? ASTORINO: Well, but that's saying that Nancy Pelosi and the Democrats
are not willing to give. Steny Hoyer said something today or very recently, you've had Democrat say, "Look, we're not opposed to a wall. We don't think it's immoral." So they're starting to say, "Okay, we're willing to move a little bit." So the first step was - their non-negotiable was you got to open the government and then we can have the State of the Union.
Okay. Government is going to open, State of the Union will get him an opportunity to speak directly to the people.
WALSH: To make his case.
ASTORINO: Make his case and in three weeks if the Democrats say still no wall, then they're going to look absonant and that will turn the tables.
WALSH: But, Rob, he had his chances. He spoke directly to the people.
ASTORINO: I don't think he did a good job there, quite frankly.
WALSH: The network - he did a terrible job.
BURNETT: Rob, we've never seen a shutdown this long.
ASTORINO: Yes.
WALSH: Right.
BURNETT: Okay. And the President just reopened the government 100% on the terms of the people on the other side of the table.
ASTORINO: But didn't give up anything. It's three weeks he gave up.
WALSH: He gave up his credibility.
ASTORINO: No. He got three more weeks to negotiate and in that time, if he gets a wall in three weeks, who's going to care?
WALSH: He's not going to get a wall in three weeks.
ASTORINO: He's going to get something otherwise, you know what, they should shut it down.
BURNETT: He's going to get less than his $5.7 billion according to what he said was a non-negotiable. I just don't see how you spin this. He himself, if he were trying to defend, someone would say that person was a loser as a negotiator.
WALSH: Right, a big loser.
BURNETT: He would, right? I mean you can't deny that.
WALSH: He's been a big loser. He may get $5.7 for border security. There are ways for both sides to call this ... BURNETT: Right, a border security.
WALSH: A border security when ...
ASTORINO: That's what they'll work on.
WALSH: And I hope that's what they work on, but right now it's a loss for him and he's going to have to compromise.
BORGER: But I think what you're saying, Joan, is that this is going to come down to a matter of semantics.
WALSH: Yes.
BORGER: So it won't be a wall, it'll be border security and everybody can see through that, either it's - or not see through it if it's a wall. If it's a wall, it's a wall. If it's border security, if it's more immigration judges, if it's more security at ports of entry and all that kind of good stuff that everybody agrees on, that's great and it could be $5.7 billion. But if it's not a wall, it's not a wall and somebody is going to have to say that because semantics is semantics, concrete is concrete, slats are slats. Somebody has to figure that out.
(Crosstalk)
BURNETT: What Gloria is trying to say slats and see through counts as a wall.
ASTORINO: I agree with Gloria. There's got to be a physical barrier of some sort, money in there for that ...
BORGER: For Trump.
ASTORINO: ... for him to move forward. Otherwise, then he does lose. But I don't think he's lost yet because the game isn't over. It's a three-week extension.
BURNETT: Yes. Well, it'll be curious to see how much of it is semantics when he said you can call it peaches if you want. There is a limit though in all seriousness to what peach is ...
WALSH: A wall that you can get away with.
BURNETT: ... that accomplishes what he wants, that assuages his basis, because his promise was very clear and it was a wall.
BORGER: Yes.
WALSH: Yes.
BURNETT: All right, thanks to all. And next, breaking news, Roger Stone arrested. Robert Mueller's indictment now making the clearest link yet between Trump's campaign and Russia linked WikiLeaks. So what is the President saying tonight, he was asked. Plus, Roger Stone making it clear as of now he's not going to turn on the President. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROBERT STONE, AMERICAN POLITICAL CONSULTANT: I have made it clear, I will not testify against the President.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: Will that change and where does that come from? We'll show you the decades long relationship. And what about the 800,000 workers who've been affected by the longest shut down in history? We're going to talk to one of them, a father of four in North Carolina why he's not breathing a sigh of relief tonight.
[19:15:00]
Tonight, President Trump ignoring a question about Roger Stone, his long time confidant who was indicted by Robert Mueller today for lying to Congress repeatedly under oath and witness tampering.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Mr. President, were you aware that Roger Stone was updating your campaign on WikiLeaks?
TRUMP: Thank you, everybody.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: Okay. This comes after Mueller's team arrested Stone and the moment in Florida this morning, the hours before dawn caught live on tape by CNN.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: FBI. Open the door.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: And there was Roger Stone. At the courthouse then Stone was defiant, stepping up before cameras after his court appearance. He threw up a pair of peace signs in the air, Nixon style. Remember he's got a Nixon tattoo on his back, but the crowd was chanting, "Lock him up."
Now, in the 24-page indictment, okay, we got here which details Stone's lies to Congress about his efforts to get dirt on Hillary Clinton from the Russian linked WikiLeaks and his efforts to get another witness to lie too, team Mueller write, "After the July 22, 2016 release of stolen DNC, that's Democratic National Committee, emails by WikiLeaks, a senior Trump campaign official was directed to contact Stone about any additional releases and what other damaging information Organization 1, again WikiLeaks, had regarding the Clinton campaign."
Now, this is crucial because it is unclear who that senior Trump campaign official is who reached out to Stone and the most important words here are that senior Trump campaign official was directed. Okay, so you're scratching your head, well, so am I. Who is more senior than a senior campaign official on a campaign? Was it Trump himself? Muller does not say. Well, Evan Perez is OutFront.
Evan, that paragraph is key. Just how important could it be in Mueller's indictment?
EVEN PEREZ, SENIOR JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT, CNN: Look, I think that paragraph is everything. It is the paragraph that could possibly answer all of the questions that Robert Mueller was appointed to answer and certainly the questions that we've all been asking in the two years that this thing has been going on. What's interesting is that we don't know - again, as you pointed out, we don't know who that senior campaign official is. The only senior official in the campaign that we know that he was in touch with that has been identified so far is Steve Bannon, because we've seen an email in which the two of them are communicating. But Steve Bannon does not come into the picture until much later in the campaign. So at this point, Paul Manafort is running the campaign. Certainly today we spent a lot of the day trying to call these people to see if they believe they're the senior campaign official.
[19:20:06]
They all say, "Nope, not us." So the question is does Robert Mueller know, we believe he does and what does he do with that information? Does that become a key part of this report that he is going to provide to the Attorney General Bill Barr, whenever Bill Barr takes office or is this something that is saved for perhaps more court indictments or court filings at a later date? We don't know.
But again, Erin, I think that paragraph is definitely a key into us understanding whatever happened in 2016 and whether or not there was any coordination, legal coordination between the Trump campaign and WikiLeaks and Russia.
BURNETT: Obviously, a very important development tonight. Okay, Evan, thank you. I want to go now to the former CIA Chief of Russia Operation, Steve Hall, Phil Mudd, former FBI Senior Intelligence Adviser, and former CIA Counter-Terror Official and the former Assistant U.S. Attorney for the Southern District of New York, Harry Sandick.
So, Phil, when you read through this indictment, you're not mincing words here. You see the most corrupt campaign worse than Watergate.
PHIL MUDD, FORMER FBI SENIOR INTELLIGENCE ADVISER: Again, I think what you have to step back with is there's one piece missing from this document aside from the big question of whether anybody solicited information from WikiLeaks or from the Russians, we don't get that. You have named individuals, presumably named to Mueller, not named in this document, senior campaign officials who presumably have been interviewed by Mueller.
Did they tell the truth about directing Stone to do this in those interviews and if they didn't, are we going to get more lying to federal officials charges? Every single person so far, Cohen, Manafort, Flynn, every single person has lied so far, are the officials named in that as official one and two, et cetera? Are they also going to be charged later because they didn't come clean about this?
Finally, if they did come clean, do you know what they admitted? They admitted to asking a foreign entity about stolen information to interfere in American election. We seem to be ignoring that.
BURNETT: Well, and that obviously is at the heart of the whole thing, right?
MUDD: Yes.
BURNETT: You've got lying and obstructing and then you have collusion or obviously the crucial legal term, conspiracy. I mean, Steve, Stone knew, Roger Stone knows he's dealing with Julian Assange, the founder of WikiLeaks, right? Mueller laid that out in these 24 pages very clearly. He says, "The DNC publicly announced the hack into the DNC, it was done by Russia in June of 2016." So you know that Russia was behind it, then the information stolen by Russia from the DNC is then released by WikiLeaks starting in July, so anybody can put those things together.
Roger Stone then is working with contacts tied to WikiLeaks and Julian Assange all the way through the fall, but today he says the indictment does not add up to collusion or conspiracy. Here he is.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
STONE: After a two-year inquisition, the charges today relate in no way to Russian collusion, WikiLeaks' collaboration or any other illegal act in connection with the 2016 campaign.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: Steve, can Stone actually say he has no idea he was working with Russia when he was doing all of this to get the stolen emails from WikiLeaks?
STEVE HALL, FORMER CIA CHIEF OF RUSSIA OPERATIONS: Erin, if he says that he's probably the only person on the planet who hasn't figured it out or refuses to admit it. Look, if you take a look at these two entities, let's start with WikiLeaks. Julian Assange and WikiLeaks are undoubtedly connected to the Russian intelligence services. You had a member of the Kremlin basically working for RT, which is their propaganda outlet, approach, Julian Assange of WikiLeaks in 2013 to offer him a renewal of his contract with RT, so he's working with the Russians.
That's the guy in WikiLeaks, it was the guys that Roger Stone was involved. Guccifer 2.0, another name that we become familiar with. The intelligence community has now determined that Guccifer, of course, was a GRU, Russian military intelligence operation, part of the information operation that was conducted here in this country in 2016 into the lead up to the election. So there's really little no doubt, there's no doubt whatsoever in my mind that he was connected with the Russians.
BURNETT: So, Harry, months after Russia is directly linked to WikiLeaks, month after that was publicly known as Steve was pointing out, and months after Mueller says in the indictment that somebody directed a senior campaign official to tell stone to go back to WikiLeaks. So months after these things happen, we hear things like this from Donald Trump.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: This just came out. WikiLeaks. I love WikiLeaks.
This WikiLeaks stuff is unbelievable. It tells you the inner heart, you got to read it.
We've learned so much from WikiLeaks.
Well, I love reading those WikiLeaks.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: Is Mueller getting closer to Trump?
HARRY SANDICK, FORMER ASSISTANT U.S. ATTORNEY, SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK: He's absolutely getting closer to Trump.
[19:24:58]
I mean, he's a little bit coy or teasing and the way that paragraph that Evan read a few minutes ago is written in the passive voice ...
BURNETT: That someone directs a senior campaign official.
SANDICK: Right. It's a mystery for us to try to figure out or stay tuned until the next indictment if there is one. But it's definitely closer to Trump in part because of that and also because Stone is someone who's had a long association with Trump. And just the mere fact that it's someone who is this close to Trump is being charged with the crime. Trump is obviously a little bit nervous about it. He praised stone for hanging tough, essentially last month in a tweet, that was unusual.
BURNETT: Right. And, of course, you've point out that they've known each other for decades. Manafort and Trump may have known of each other but were not related really until the campaign when Tom Barrack introduced them formally. But very different with Roger Stone, Phil, and this is a long, long relationship. And Roger Stone is arrested this morning, Phil, under the cover of darkness. We hear the pounding on the door, "FBI." Six of Trump associates have now been charged and the former Head of the CIA this morning, John Brennan says, "There's more to come." Here he is.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOHN BRENNAN, FORMER CIA DIRECTOR: I expect it to be a significant number and a significant number of names that are going to be question related to the average American. I think the shoes that are yet to drop are going to be the ones that are going to be the most profound and that will hit the people at the top of the organization.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: You know John Brennan well.
MUDD: Yes, I do.
BURNETT: He doesn't speak lightly. Obviously, we know his view of this President, but he doesn't speak lightly on something like this. What do you think, Phil, is he right?
MUDD: Maybe. I'm not as confident as John. I think there are three pieces we need to see, too small and one really big one. The small one is, hey, as I've mentioned earlier, did anybody else hear lying among the people questioned by the FBI? My guess is they did and that means further indictments. The second thing I'd ask, remember some of this isn't Mueller, it's the Southern District of New York, what about financial charges related things like tax evasion in New York, that's what got Manafort. We're not hearing anything out of New York or very little.
BURNETT: Nothing.
MUDD: And the last - the biggest story is Bob Barr. Eventually, the unnamed people in here if they're never indicted are going to go on a major report that Barr gets that's going to pull together what's going to look like a conspiracy, and he's got to make a choice. How much of this does the Congress get? I think that's the big story, Erin.
BURNETT: And Steve, what is your take on whether we're going to see the most profound names that we're going to see names that are quite familiar to the average American.
HALL: I would have to agree with my with my former boss on this. I think that there probably are going to be names out there that we're very familiar with and I think that that's what Mueller is moving towards. I mean, I worked in a very compartment and very tight organization inside of CIA and Mueller's operation is so tight. It's really tough to see where it's going. So we'll just have to see, but I think John is on to something.
BURNETT: All right, thank you all very much. And next, more in the breaking news, and now the White House is trying to spin the way out of Mueller's new indictment.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOHN BERMAN, ANCHOR, CNN: Was it the President who made that direction or not?
SARAH SANDERS, PRESS SECRETARY OF THE WHITE HOUSE: Once again, I haven't read this Document.
BERMAN: Okay.
SANDERS: I'm not an attorney.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: Plus, how the President's longtime adviser Roger Stone fuel the Trump's political ambitions over decades together.
[19:30:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[19:36:35] ERIN BURNETT, CNN HOST: Tonight, the White House refusing to directly answer whether the president of the United States directed a senior campaign official to contact Roger Stone about WikiLeaks dumps that could damage Hillary Clinton.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: You will not answer whether it was the president who directed a senior Trump campaign official to contact Roger Stone, and you may not know. You may not know.
SARAH HUCKABEE SANDERS, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: I actually have answered the question several times. You just don't like my answer.
BERMAN: No, no. Did the president know or not? Was it the president who made that direction or not?
SANDERS: Once again, I haven't read this document. I'm not an attorney. I'm not going to be able to get into to weeds on those specifics. What I can tell you are the charges brought against Mr. Stone have nothing to do with the president, have nothing to do with the White House.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: OUTFRONT tonight, Democratic Senator Richard Blumenthal of Connecticut. Obviously, going to be central and looking at all of this.
So, let me ask you, Senator. The Roger Stone indictment, OK, what they're referring to is this crucial line, let me read it again. Perhaps the most important line in the 24 pages, after the July 22nd, 2016, release of stolen Democratic national committee e-mails by WikiLeaks, a senior Trump campaign official was directed to contact Stone about any additional releases and what other damaging information WikiLeaks had regarding the Clinton campaign, right?
So you're talking about WikiLeaks linked to Russian intelligence, and you have somebody directing a senior campaign official to go talk to Stone. So that's someone who is senior to a senior campaign official. So who do you think that was?
SEN. RICHARD BLUMENTHAL (D-CT), JUDICIARY COMMITTEE: In my view, and probably in Robert Mueller's view, that person directing the senior official had to be Donald Trump, or possibly Donald Trump Jr.
Remember, this campaign was very small. And it was run very hands-on by Donald Trump himself. So there are a plethora of facts, including some of what Donald Trump Jr. said about wanting dirt on Hillary Clinton, about knowing in advance about the release of documents by WikiLeaks, those stolen e-mails that indicate that it was either him or his father Donald Trump.
BURNETT: And, of course, as I played a few moments ago, Donald Trump months after the stuff had started to be leaked, months after it was known that it was Russia, months after WikiLeaks is the source of the leaks, months after you know WikiLeaks and Russia are linked together, the president is talking again and again and again. I played four times he's talking about how much he likes WikiLeaks and you have to look at what they're putting out there.
He didn't not know to name, didn't not know who was putting it out there. That's clear. That the public record shows that.
But, Senator, if what you're surmising which many are wondering, right, if it's true, if it's the president of the United States who directed a senior campaign official to tell Stone to go to WikiLeaks, what does that mean? What are we talking about if that's what that line ends up meaning?
BLUMENTHAL: What that line means essentially is the president knew in advance those e-mails were stolen by the Russians. And he knew in advance that they were going to be released by WikiLeaks. And, maybe most important, Robert Mueller can prove it.
Remember, what's not said in this indictment, even though it is stunning in its detail, and its abundant fact, is what it doesn't say. That senior adviser isn't named. And the person directing the senior adviser isn't named. But not because Robert Mueller doesn't know or have evidence of who it is.
[19:35:03] And so, stay tuned. There are other indictments to come. And the president of the United States is one step, maybe just a baby step, away from criminal charges.
MADDOW: OK, so let me be clear. Other indictments are coming, you believe that Mueller wouldn't have written it this way if he didn't know both who directed the senior campaign official and the senior official. He knows who both of those individuals are, OK, and you say the president then is a step away from criminal charges. I would imagine you're saying a step away is a step much closer after these 24 pages we saw today?
BLUMENTHAL: Much closer after these 24 pages, and possibly much closer after a member of his family is criminally charged. Remember that the indictments of both Michael Cohen and Roger Stone involve lying to Congress. Who else potentially has lied to Congress? Donald Trump Jr.
I know, because I was in the room when he came before the Judiciary Committee to be interviewed. And he made statements there that raised serious questions about his truthfulness. He should come back to the Judiciary Committee. I have asked the Chairman Lindsey Graham to call him back. If necessary, subpoena him, but he has a lot of exposure here.
MADDOW: Now, one thing that, you know, Stone's lawyer points out to CNN is they found no Russian collusion or they would have charged him with it. That's the quote from his lawyer. Do you agree? They would have charged if they had it?
BLUMENTHAL: Having been a prosecutor, I know well the charges don't always include everything that possibly could be charged. Number one, not everything that could be charged can be proved beyond a reasonable doubt. Number two, a prosecutor may not want to telegraph all of the charges, but remember in this indictment, there are the fundamental building blocks of a charge of criminal conspiracy. Collusion is not a legal term, but criminal conspiracy can be proved by the evidence that I believe would support this indictment.
BURNETT: All right. Thank you very much, Senator Blumenthal. I appreciate it.
BLUMENTHAL: Thank you.
BURNETT: And next, the White House trying to distance itself from Roger Stone, but it's really impossible to do because Stone and Trump are close. They have a history that goes back decades.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROGER STONE, TRUMP ASSOCIATE: I am one of his oldest friends. I am a fervent supporter of the president.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: Plus, President Trump getting hit hard by the very same conservatives who said to shut down the government. Is his base turning or not?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[19:41:13] BURNETT: Tonight, Roger Stone insisting he will not turn on President Trump after being indicted by the special counsel, Robert Mueller.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
STONE: I have made it clear I will not testify against the president.
REPORTER: How strong is your allegiance to President Trump?
STONE: I am one of his oldest friends. I am a fervent supporter of the president. I think he's doing a great job of making America great again.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: And the Trump/Stone relationship does go back four decades.
Tom Foreman is OUTFRONT.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SANDERS: This has nothing to do with the president, and certainly nothing to do with the White House.
TOM FOREMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): But Roger Stone has the plenty to do with Donald Trump ever since they met in the '70s -- legal work for his business, lobbying for his casinos. They share personal history too.
STONE: Donald Trump came to my wedding. I went to two of his. I was at both of his parents' funerals.
FOREMAN: And time and again, Stone has pushed Trump's political ambitions.
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Roger always wanted me to run for president. And over the years, every time a presidential race came up, he always wanted me to run.
STONE: I was like a jockey looking for a horse. You can't win the race if you don't have a horse.
TRUMP: The polls are saying it.
FOREMAN: Their partnership has been at times a rough ride. The two had to pay fined related to casino lobbying long ago. Trump once told "The New Yorker" Roger is a stone cold loser. He always tries taking credit for things he never did.
Even after Stone was all in on Trump's 2016 campaign, advising the candidate, raising money, Stone was fired or he quit depending on whom you believe. Still --
STONE: I am a loyal supporter of Donald Trump. I believe he can be a transformational president.
FOREMAN: Trump prizes loyalty and Stone's loyalty is unwavering. He even has a tattoo on his back of Richard Nixon, whom he once worked for.
So, for Trump, Stone soon became a raging voice against the Russia investigation.
STONE: A fairy tale, a falsehood, a steaming pile of B.S.
FOREMAN: The quick defender for any decision no matter how controversial.
STONE: The president made the right decision. Mr. Comey had become unaccountable.
FOREMAN: An attack dog to go after Trump's enemies and an ally to ridicule his critics.
STONE: Oh, my god. I'm busted drinking Russian vodka. Mueller, arrest me. Libtards.
FOREMAN: And most of all, Stone has been a man who steadfastly says what Trump needs said most.
STONE: I am aware of no evidence whatsoever of collusion by the Russian state or anyone in the Trump campaign. Or anyone associated with Donald Trump.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
FOREMAN: Depending on how this investigation plays out, that is exactly what Donald Trump needs Roger Stone to keep saying, although if the past is any indication, you can count on members of team Trump to pretty soon start saying Roger who? Erin?
BURNETT: All right. Thank you very much, Tom Foreman.
I want to go now to the chief investigative correspondent for Yahoo News, Michael Isikoff who has covered so much of this investigation and Stone.
Now, you know, Michael, do you believe Roger Stone was doing everything Mueller claims in this indictment without the knowledge of his longtime friend, Donald Trump?
MICHAEL ISIKOFF, CHIEF INVESTIGATIVE CORRESPONDENT, YAHOO NEWS: You know, it is kind of hard to imagine given that they were so close for so long. And they stayed in touch. I mean, through all of the ups and downs of the relationship and getting fired from the campaign. Stone stayed in touch with Trump, continued to communicate with him.
You know, it's interesting. You spent a lot of time on who the senior campaign official was. At the time, the campaign chairman was Paul Manafort, Roger Stone's old business partner. So, you know, there is a web of relationships that go back many, many years here.
[19:45:04] BURNETT: And, you know, it's interesting because for a long time, right, Manafort was saying he wouldn't turn. Now he's cooperating. Now, they're accusing him of lying.
But, you know, the point is, sometimes people say that they will never turn, a la, Michael Cohen, and then they do. Stone is defiant he will not turn on Trump.
Do you think that he'll stay that firm?
ISIKOFF: Probably. I don't see Roger Stone flipping. It is so much a part of his persona, of his identity, as the defiant guy. He doesn't seem to be somebody who is going to be susceptible to flipping.
So, you know, we'll wait and see. You know, he could face some serious prison time here, but I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for Roger Stone to flip.
BURNETT: Right. I guess he could count on a pardon if the president is able to give one.
All right. Michael, thank you so very much. It's great to see you.
ISIKOFF: Sure enough.
BURNETT: And OUTFRONT next, President Trump just tweeting that caving on the wall is, quote, in no way a concession.
Plus, a father of four who told us two weeks ago he was trying to make ends meet during the shutdown is OUTFRONT. Why he's now preparing for another shutdown.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[19:50:04] BURNETT: Breaking news. Humiliating. A Trump adviser telling Jim Acosta that what happened with the shutdown was a humiliating loss for a man that rarely losses. This after the president caved on his demands for wall funding in exchange for ending the shutdown.
Trump, himself, in damage control mode, tweeting, quote: I wish people would read or listen to my words on the border wall. This was in no way a concession. I was taking care of millions of people who are getting badly hurt by the shutdown with the understanding that in 21 days if no deal is done, it's off to the races.
OUTFRONT now, Republican congressman for Illinois, Adam Kinzinger.
I appreciate your time, Congressman.
Obviously, look, the president at the end of the day is signing what Democrats had offered. Very specifically, we were playing their sound bites earlier, three weeks -- open the government for three weeks and we will negotiate, that's what's happening here, with no wall funding in the intermediate time frame. You heard the senior adviser saying this is a humiliating negotiating loss for the president.
You voted, one of the handful of Republicans who voted with Democrats this week. You wanted to reopen the government. Do you think this was a humiliating loss for the president?
REP. ADAM KINZINGER (R), ILLLINOIS: I think we will know more in three weeks. I mean, look, government shutdowns don't work. If you look at the last three ones, there was the 2013 with the Obamacare, there was the DACA issue with Schumer and then this one. Each time somebody tries to get something in addition to what already exists, they always end up losing in a shutdown fight.
Shutdowns are dumb, and we need, as Americans and as legislators, frankly, to learn how do this as adults. To take differences, negotiate them out and understand that a negotiation doesn't have to be a win/lose. There can be win/win here or lose/lose. I don't care what call them. But there's a point at which we have to negotiate. So, what my hope is that these three weeks here actually can buy us
what Nancy Pelosi called for, legitimate opportunity to negotiate on things like border funding, maybe throw DACA and stuff in there and get something big done.
BURNETT: So, now, you know, we're in a situation where obviously, the 35 days, people didn't get paid. You had airports closing today because people were calling out sick. We end up with what she put on the table on day one. I mean, it's hard for people to understand what happened. In the Rose Garden today, the president said this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: If we don't get a fair deal from Congress, the government will either shut down on February 15th again or I will use the powers afforded to me under the laws and the Constitution of the United States to address this emergency.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: So, Congressman, do you think he is willing to do that? I mean, are we going to get a national emergency and build a wall, executive action? Or how is this going to happen?
KINZINGER: You know, it's possible. And I need to see the details of what that is. I would certainly prefer it not go this way. I support building the wall, border security and barriers.
But my hope is over the next three weeks, again -- the problem is, one thing I think is important to notice now is people that think the federal government is not important, it's important. We see that in some of the problems that were mounting today when air traffic control airports and stuff -- that was just 20 some percent of the federal government that was closed down. So, we play an important role.
And so, being that we play this important role in American lives, it's time for us to grow up and as adults, get together and I hate when people say have a conversation. But, frankly, it's be willing to negotiate and take something you don't want to get something you do. I guarantee you, once this is done, 80 percent of the American people will like what the product is.
BURNETT: So, I want to ask you before we go, Congressman, about Roger Stone, obviously, Robert Mueller charges him today. Says he was coordinating with campaign officials about the WikiLeaks stolen e- mail. And I just want to read you the key line in the indictment. It says, after the July release -- 2016 release of stolen DNC e-mails by WikiLeaks, a senior Trump campaign official was directed to contact stone about releasing information and whatever damaging information WikiLeaks had regarding the Clinton campaign.
I don't know if you just heard Senator Blumenthal, but he just said the person who directed the senior officials, so a way to phrase it, right, who's more senior than a senior official? He says it must be Donald Trump himself or Donald Trump Jr. Do you agree? KINZINGER: Well, I can't jump to those conclusions. Roger Stone has
always creeped me out. It will be interesting to see how this goes down.
I have said from the beginning on this, that the Mueller report will be the thing we need to read as people that are going to be on the potential jury if anything moves forward, we have to read that report and take what's in there versus these moment by -- is it concerning? Absolutely. But I don't think we can jump to the point of saying this is a president or anybody like that. I have no indication of that. And we'll just have to see what the final report is.
BURNETT: All right. Congressman, I appreciate your time. Thanks so much for coming OUTFRONT.
KINZINGER: Yes, you bet.
BURNETT: And next, a federal worker and father of four has gone a month without being paid, 35 days.
[19:55:02] Is he convinced the government will stay open?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BURNETT: The longest shutdown in American history, that is what 800,000 federal workers have endured. And now, there's a question of what happens again in three weeks.
We spoke to Rusty Long. He works for the Department of Agriculture in North Carolina. He is a father of four. He depends completely on his salary because his wife works at home taking care of the children, taking care of their young son who has cerebral palsy.
This is what he told me on January 11, on day 21 of the shutdown.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RUSTY LONG, FEDERAL WORKER WHO HASN'T BEEN PAID, FATHER OF FOUR IN SINGLE-INCOME FAMILY: It's frustrating because you have a situation that's not political. It's personal. We're trying to make ends meet. I'm trying to do my job serving the people of North Carolina.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: Serving the people of North Carolina. We spoke with Rusty again today and he is not entirely relieved.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LONG: We're not planning to go back to everything as if business is as usual. We're going to continue to keep things tight, setting aside funds with the expectation that in three weeks shutdown could happen again.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: As Congressman Kinzinger said, shutdowns are dumb.
"AC360" starts now.
