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Erin Burnett Outfront
Trump Denounces Protesters, But Refuses To Condemn Teen Suspect And Supporter Charged With Homicide In Kenosha; Trump Defends Trip Tomorrow To Kenosha As Officials Plea To Postpone; Mayor John Antaramian (D), Kenosha Discusses About His Take On The Trip Of President Trump To Kenosha Despite His Wish Against It; U.S. Cases Surpass Six Million, Deaths Top 183,000. Aired 7-8p ET
Aired August 31, 2020 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
PAMELA BROWN, CNN HOST: Well, OUTFRONT next, breaking news. President Trump coming to the defense of a supporter who is accused of killing two people and injuring a third. Why won't he condemn supporters who are taking the law into their own hands?
Plus, a city on edge. President Trump set to travel to Kenosha, Wisconsin despite pleas from local officials to stay away. One of those people, the city's Mayor. He's my guest with his message to the President.
And as the U.S. passes 6 million cases of coronavirus, our Dr. Sanjay Gupta with a special report on why the U.S. is still on track to lose nearly 1,000 Americans a day. Let's go OUTFRONT.
Well, good evening. I'm Pamela Brown in for Erin Burnett.
And OUTFRONT tonight breaking news, Trump comes to the defense of an accused killer who also happens to be a supporter. Speaking just moments ago, the President almost justifying what Kyle Rittenhouse allegedly did last Tuesday night, armed on the streets of Kenosha, Wisconsin with a long rifle where a police say he killed two protesters and injured a third.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: 1900 [inaudible 00:01:18] in the actions of vigilantes like Kyle Rittenhouse?
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We're looking at all of it. That was an interesting situation. You saw the same tape as I saw and he was trying to get away from them, I guess, it looks like and he fell. And then they very violently attacked him and it was something that we're looking at right now and it's under investigation, but I guess he was in very big trouble. He would have been - he probably would have been killed, but it's under investigation.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: All right. So let's look at what the criminal complaint said. It said Rittenhouse was not on the ground when he first open fire, instead he was clashing with people he would gather near a car dealership and the President also refused to condemn supporters who took to the streets in Portland seen firing paintball guns and mace this weekend.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: I understand they had large numbers of people that were supporters, but that was a peaceful protest. And paint is a defensive mechanism, paint is not bullets.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: So this is what the President is calling a peaceful protest. Supporters of the President firing a paintball gun on protesters, as you see. The President unable to say this is wrong today during his press conference, that apparent far right protesters are fanning the flames of violence.
But he did go after Biden for not criticizing far left extremists. In fact, he spent a good portion of his press conference attacking Biden and warning the violence that has occurred at some demonstrations is spreading and will threaten cities and towns if Biden is elected.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: The wave of violence and destruction that we've seen in recent weeks and months has occurred in cities exclusively controlled and dominated by the Biden, Joe Biden party. If you give the radical left power, what you're seeing in the Democrat-run cities will be brought to every city in this country.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: So the President begging that voters are scared and will turn to him. But today Biden rejecting the President's fearmongering.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOE BIDEN (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Fires are burning and we have a president who fans the flames rather than fighting the flames. He may believe mouthing the words law and order makes him strong. But his failure to call on his own supporters to stop acting as an armed militia in this country shows how weak he is. Donald Trump looks at this violence and he sees a political lifeline.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: And Jeremy Diamond is OUTFRONT live at the White House. Jeremy, clearly the President continues to count on this message of violence and mayhem working in his favor in the election.
JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: He certainly is and it's very clear that this is central to the President's reelection strategy. As you heard the President today, he did his best to try and tie Joe Biden to the writing in some of the looting that we have seen in some of these cities after, of course, mostly peaceful protests in some of these cities. Despite the fact that Biden, just hours earlier, had explicitly condemned rioting, looting any forms of violence.
But the President, for his part, he refused to issue any kind of blanket condemnation of violence. He was given an opportunity by our colleague Kaitlan Collins to explicitly condemn any violence by his own supporters, right wing supporters of the President including those Trump supporters who went through the city of Portland firing paintballs and pepper spray at Black Lives Matter protesters. The President calling that a defensive mechanism.
[19:05:00]
And, of course, there was also the situation with Kyle Rittenhouse, who has been charged with two counts of homicide, and yet the President sought to try and justify his actions. Certainly not trying to step away from the situation, let the investigation play out, but instead offering his judgment on the situation and certainly offering no condemnation of what is obviously a double homicide in this situation.
Ultimately, though, Pam, it's clear this is the strategy that the President wants to pursue over these next several weeks of this presidential campaign. Tomorrow, we'll see the President go into Kenosha, Wisconsin where he'll use what has really become a hotspot for these racial justice movements as a backdrop for this lawn order message that the President wants to deliver. And he is not going to be meeting with the family of Jacob Blake, instead focusing on viewing property damage caused by some of the riots there and meeting with law enforcement, Pam.
BROWN: Really quick, Jeremy, do we know why he's not meeting with the family? Is it because the family doesn't want to meet with him?
DIAMOND: Well, the President said that he actually did speak with the pastor, the family pastor we've since learned is the pastor of Jacob Blake's mother. And then they were going to have a phone call, it sounds like, but ultimately the President did not want to have that call because the family insisted on having some of their family attorneys on the line.
We actually had Ben Crump on CNN last hour who said that Jacob Blake's mother was expecting this phone call from the President. She was ready and willing to speak with him, but the President then revealed during this White House briefing that he would not have that phone call as long as attorneys were present. And we should also note that Ben Crump said that during Jacob Blake's family's phone call with Joe Biden and Kamala Harris, that attorneys were on that call and that wasn't an issue for the Democratic presidential and vice presidential nominees.
BROWN: OK. Jeremy Diamond, thanks so much for that.
And OUTFRONT now Ben Jealous former President and CEO of the NAACP, John Avlon, CNN Political Analyst and Astead Herndon, National Political Reporter for The New York Times. Great to see you all, so much to get to here.
And Ben, I'm going to start with you. You've heard the President defending both Kyle Rittenhouse and the Trump supporters in Portland who were shooting paintballs at protesters. When you were hearing him talk about that, what were your first thoughts?
BEN JEALOUS, PRESIDENT, PEOPLE FOR THE AMERICAN WAY AND FOUNDATION: The first thought is that we've never seen this before. We've never seen a president fan the flames of hate and violence like this. He should be trying to unite the country. He should be showing empathy. He should be evolving in office, he's doing just the opposite.
He's doubling down on hate and violence and he's taking us to a place, frankly, we've never been before as a country.
BROWN: And Astead, when you look at how he was talking during the press conference, he is so focused on who was behind the violence, repeatedly talking about the left wing and shying away from condemning people on the right wing, people who support him. This is a pattern we've seen from the President before.
ASTEAD HERNDON, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Yes. I mean, there's a clear political strategy to try to reframe this moment in the context of his election, but it comes at the cost, it comes at the application of his current role as president. He isn't functioning as a comforter, as an executive, as someone who is the president of the Kenoshas and the Portlands and all of the folks who live there.
He is functioning as someone who only needs to think about his specific face, his specific slice of voters and frankly has sought to capitalize on any instances of violence or any instances of division in the way that he thinks could drive his electoral chances. It's very clear and I think we should point out the dual roles here, not only just his election strategy, but his application of the current presidential role.
BROWN: It's interesting, John, because he does seem to be playing to his base. But is that the kind of message not condemning vigilante violence, these armed militias not condemning them, is that the kind of message that would resonate with the voters, those other voters that Trump needs to win the election?
JOHN AVLON, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: No. The question answers itself, of course not. And I want to be clear, this isn't just a president playing to the base. Let's not get numb to what we're seeing, the President of the United States tonight at the White House refused to condemn an alleged murderer, because he felt he was on 'his side' and it's part of a pattern.
It's part of a pattern we've seen going back to 2016 when he refused to denounce David Duke. We saw it after the Unite the Right rally in Charlottesville. We've seen it most recently with Qanon, because he says they like me.
So this is part of a pattern and there's no precedent for this in American history. But this is a president doubling down on dividing to try to conquer, trying to turn Americans against one another all through the lens of his partisan self interest and that's no way to unite a broader coalition. It undercuts absolutely everything that the party strained itself to say during the convention last week.
BROWN: And the President meantime, Ben, is still planning to head to Wisconsin tomorrow.
[19:10:01]
The Democratic Governor there, he made it clear he doesn't want the President to come. But here's the White House Press Secretary's reasoning for the President's trip to Wisconsin despite the wishes of the officials there.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KAYLEIGH MCENANY, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: The President wants to visit hurting Americans. He shows up just like he showed up this weekend in Louisiana and Texas in response to Hurricane Laura.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: So what do think when you hear her say that, Ben?
JEALOUS: This president is doubling down. He simply is trying to create as much tension, as much strife, as much hatred. It is a calloused playbook. It abdicates the responsibilities of a president to serve all of the people in this country to uphold the dignity of the office to unite the country.
He, quite frankly, only seems to care about his success, period, and he does not seem to care about the rest of us. Frankly, you saw it today when they're talking about taking a herd approach to dealing with COVID-19, which 2 million people in this country would die. The callousness of this White House is something that we have never seen.
BROWN: And we're going to talk about the herd immunity later in the show, but I want to stick with the trip that the President is planning tomorrow, Astead. And the White House Press Secretary was asked why is the President going to Kenosha and not Portland where we've seen protests there for several months, she sidestepped the question, what's the real answer?
HERNDON: Well, I think they think of Wisconsin as a state in which they can win, a state in which they can do well and I think that that is the kind of specific interest of this White House. And I think that we should point out, though, that the President's use of race as a means of dividing and conquering predates his political career.
It is not just President Trump, who has used black versus white or brown versus black for his personal gain. It is real estate Donald Trump, it is apprentice Donald Trump, it has been every portion and every facet of his career has leaned on these messages.
And so I think we should be clear that this is a through line throughout his life that has manifested as President, but did not start at this point.
BROWN: And I actually want to get to the sound that we heard from Joe Biden today. Where he came out and he did condemn violence. Here's what he said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BIDEN: These are not images of some imagined Joe Biden America in the future. These are images of Donald Trump's America today. He keeps telling you if only he was president, it wouldn't happen, if he was president. He keeps telling us that if he was president you feel safe. Well, he is President whether he knows it or not and it is happening.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Yet the President is still saying it's Joe Biden who won't keep you safe. Could he break through, John, what the President is saying with this message? Is that something that's effective for Joe Biden?
AVLON: Well, the President is trying to change reality through repetition. It's part of what he does. The problem is the President frequently is not just at war with facts, but a war with reality. He is president and it takes - you can repeat and try to convince your base that it's Joe Biden's America that seeing violence in the streets and Democrats shouldn't dismiss the potential political damage that can be done when peaceful protests occasionally turn into something more violent.
But Biden was very clear about condemning that unequivocal. He said, look, I condemn violence on the left and the right. And you can tell the fight the President wants because he said we didn't name antifa, so it doesn't count.
But, of course, the President can't take the responsibility of office, can't take the responsibility of condemning violence when it comes from people he sees as being his supporters. So Biden needs to just keep pointing out reality. This is Donald Trump's American carnage and we're reaping what we sow and there's no reason to believe it's going to get better with four more years.
BROWN: Yes, Ben, what is your reaction to that, that the President and his supporters, that campaign has already come out and said, well, Biden didn't call out the left wing mob, as they call it antifa, what do you make of that argument?
JEALOUS: What I'm really focused on is that this President keeps beating up on our cities and what you'll see in the Republican Party is that is a playbook that is broadly used. Larry Hogan when I was running against him here and the race for governor did the exact same thing with Baltimore that Donald Trump is doing now. And it frankly is a way to stir up racial tension, it's a way to inflame the base of the Republican Party, outside of the cities.
He is absolutely going to Wisconsin, knowing that he won that state as I recall by fewer than 30,000 votes. He's trying to inflame his base. He's not there to help the people of Kenosha. He is not there to help bring peace to the cities. He is there to inflame tensions, hoping that is how he will win.
[19:15:04] BROWN: All right. Well, OUTFRONT next, Kenosha, Wisconsin is actually
bracing, as you pointed out, Ben, for the President's visit. The city's Mayor who was pleading with the President not to come is my guest. What is his message to the President tonight?
Plus, the head of the FDA says they may approve a vaccine before the end of phase three trials. Could that put lives at risk?
And a young Kennedy on the ballot in Massachusetts, only he's not the one with the momentum or the support from young voters.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[19:19:10]
BROWN: And new today, President Trump defending his trip tomorrow to Kenosha, Wisconsin after the police shooting of Jacob Blake and the deadly shooting of two protesters, even though top leaders have pleaded with him to postpone the visit.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: We're meeting with numerous people and we have tremendous support in the State of Wisconsin. So I promised them when it all gets taken care of, well go.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They expressed concerns though that it could exacerbate tensions and increase violence. Do you give any consideration to that?
TRUMP: Well, it could also increase enthusiasm and it could increase love and respect for our country.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Omar Jimenez is OUTFRONT in Kenosha. So Omar, tell us what is the feeling on the ground there ahead of the President's trip tomorrow?
OMAR JIMENEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Pam, local and state leaders, specifically the Governor and the Mayor still feel it's too early for the President to visit here in Kenosha.
[19:20:06]
With the Mayor saying that people here are still trying to heal over the course of what has been a chaotic week at moments here in Kenosha. Now, they are staying pretty tight lipped over what the visit will actually look like tomorrow. But we did get a sense that it is going to take up a lot of local resources that up until this point have predominantly been going toward managing the protests and in some cases, some of the violence that we've seen.
Now, a major question in this was whether the President would be meeting with Jacob Blake's or even speaking with Jacob Blake's family while he was here. At this point that does not seem likely. For starters, the father says he doesn't want to play politics and get
involved. The mother through their attorney, Benjamin Crump, says that they were waiting for a call from the President, but that the President didn't want to do it with the lawyers on the line and the uncle flat out said that President Trump is a racist who stokes racial tensions.
But nonetheless, President Trump will be here and the Mayor did announce he is extending the curfew through the rest of this week. The only difference is that the curfew will begin a little bit later starting on Wednesday as opposed to the 7 pm local time as it has. And then the National Guard which, of course, has had a presence here over the course of this, says that the over a thousand of them that are currently in the area are expected to be here as long as necessary. Pam.
BROWN: OK. Omar Jimenez, thank you so much.
And outfront now, the Democratic Mayor of Kenosha, John Antaramian. He and the Democratic Governor of Wisconsin have both asked President Trump not to come tomorrow. Thank you for coming on, Mayor.
MAYOR JOHN ANTARAMIAN (D), KENOSHA, WI: No problem.
BROWN: Well, you heard what President Trump said this evening. I want to get your reaction to him claiming his trip to your city tomorrow could increase enthusiasm and love and respect for our country.
ANTARAMIAN: Well, again, I'm not one of those people who's going to tell the President what he can and cannot do. I would tell you, though, that I'm disappointed that he is coming. Our community has gone through a great deal and there's no time right now for political politics to be played.
We would prefer the President had waited at least another week or so before coming to visit. Presidents are always welcome. I mean, all cities have presidents that visited different times. The President is always welcome. But at this time, it's just the wrong time. Right now is a time for us to heal and to be able to look inward and deal with the issues that we have to deal with.
BROWN: And one of the reasons you've also said that now is not the time for him to visit is the strain on the resources as you prepare for his trip tomorrow. What does that look like and can you provide any more details of what his trip there tomorrow will entail?
ANTARAMIAN: I really cannot, there is no conversation at this point in time as to or information that we're giving out at this point in time as to the trip. I will tell you, though, that the National Guard has been extremely helpful and we feel comfortable that we can keep the President safe and keep the public safe. Mostly, we need to try to make sure that there's calm in the community and that is what we are hoping to maintain.
BROWN: So even though you think now is the wrong time for President Trump to visit, are you willing to meet with him tomorrow when he is there?
ANTARAMIAN: Right now we're not making any comments on his visit, though (inaudible) discuss tomorrow.
BROWN: But you can't even tell us if you're willing to meet with him?
ANTARAMIAN: Again, I don't believe that I will be in discussions with the President, but at this point in time, we'll leave it at that.
BROWN: OK. So a source familiar with the discussions tells CNN that Joe Biden's team is having talks about traveling to Wisconsin this week. Here's what Biden said about that earlier today, let's listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. Biden, are you going to Wisconsin?
BIDEN: I'm checking it out now. I hope to be able to do that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: So what do you think? Are you OK with Biden visiting or do you think he should wait as well?
ANTARAMIAN: I would also prefer if the vice president waited until next week before he came. But again, regrettably politics is now playing more and more into because of the President's visit as to what's going on, so we will see what happens. But like everything else, we'll move forward. The community is in the process of trying to recover and we will greet anyone who comes in the end with respect that they deserve.
BROWN: So you said you're OK with Joe Biden coming next week, right?
ANTARAMIAN: Right. My whole comment has been that it's just too soon for the President having to come here at this point in time. I would say it's a little soon for the Vice President also.
[19:25:05]
But in fairness, if the President is here tomorrow, then there really is no other choice I think than the Vice President has than to also be here.
BROWN: So President Trump has repeatedly tried to take credit for the reduction and unrest in your city. Here's what he said during tonight's press conference at the White House.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: Tomorrow, I'm going to a place where we move very quickly. You know that in Wisconsin and we move very, very quickly and as soon as we move that was the end of that. It was very well-behaved.
(END VIDEO CLIP) BROWN: And then this morning, he tweeted, "If I didn't insist on
having the National Guard activate and go into Kenosha, Wisconsin, there would be no Kenosha right now." What is your reaction to that Mayor?
ANTARAMIAN: That, again, is a very disappointing for the President to tweet. The reality is, is that the city made the request for the National Guard to come in. The Governor immediately dealt with it and within 12 hours after the request had been done, the guard was in Kenosha.
BROWN: So did that happen at the encouragement of the President? Because you heard him say that tonight at the press conference that he had been asking for the National Guard to come in and then finally the governor allow that to happen, is that true?
ANTARAMIAN: The Governor actually had implemented the guard on Sunday or Monday morning early to have the guard come in. And so that was long before any discussions with the President.
BROWN: All right. Mayor, thank you so much.
ANTARAMIAN: Thank you for having me.
BROWN: And OUTFRONT up next, a grim milestone the U.S. surpassing 6 million cases. Yet the President is retreating fringe theories about the virus, why?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's wrong. It's misinformation and frankly it is deadly.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Plus, one of Trump's top medical advisors reportedly urging the White House to embrace herd immunity. Just how dangerous is that approach?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[19:31:05]
BROWN: Tonight, the U.S. is surpassing 6 million coronavirus cases and 183,000 deaths. Take that in.
As the U.S. reaches this grim milestone, the head of the FDA is now suggesting a vaccine could be authorized before finishing phase three trials.
Nick Watt is OUTFRONT.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
NICK WATT, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): One hundred eighty-three thousand now confirmed killed by COVID-19 nationwide. But the president just retweeted an article that distorted data to suggest the actual toll is 9,000.
DR. ABDUL EL-SAYED, EPIDEMIOLOGIST & PUBLIC HEALTH EXPERT: It is wrong, it's misinformation, and frankly, it is deadly.
WATT: A new Trump adviser is according to "The Washington Post" now pushing the so-called Swedish model. Let the virus spread to the point of herd immunity, which the newspaper says could lead to 2 million deaths in the U.S. We have a convergence of the COVID-19 pandemic with the political season. The FDA commissioner just told "The Financial Times", we just have to get through that and stick to our core principles.
But recent White House pressure on the CDC to tweak testing guidelines and the FDA exaggerating the effectiveness of plasma treatment is fostering fears of political meddling.
And now, Dr. Hahn says the FDA could grant emergency authorization for a vaccine even before trials end, saying we may find that appropriate. We may find that inappropriate. We will make a determination.
ANDY SLAVITT, FORMER ACTING ADMINISTRATOR, CENTERS FOR MEDICARE AND MEDICAID SERVICES: Basically laying the ground work for him to be able to say that he believes that the benefit outweighs the harm which is not a scientific standard we should use for this vaccine we're going to put into tens of millions of people.
WATT: Case counts are ticking up in 20 states, record average new case counts in these six states. Nationwide key metrics are on a slow decline.
DR. ASHISH JHA, DIRECTOR, HARVARD GLOBAL HEALTH INSTITUTE: As a nation we are clearly doing better now on the last day of August than on the first day of August. It's largely because of smart policies in Texas and Arizona and Florida around masking and closing bars.
WATT: Florida just logged its lowest daily case count since mid-June, showing signs of creeping near normalcy. Miami-Dade today, you can eat inside a restaurant again. But by law, they've still got to be half empty.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: And Nick is joining me now from Los Angeles.
All right. So, let's talk about Florida. What did Florida do to turn things around?
WATT: Pam, it's not just Florida. It's also Texas, Arizona, here in California, and Dr. Debra Birx explained it today. She said in those states, enough people wore masks and enough people socially distanced, didn't gather in big crowds and, you know, she said it is not theoretical anymore.
If you want facts, if you want evidence that wearing a mask, staying out of crowds works, just look to those southern states. They were all soaring during the summer and now are coming down because people, enough people are making an effort -- Pam.
BROWN: All right. Nick Watt, thank you so much for that.
And OUTFRONT now, Dr. Sanjay Gupta, and Dr. Jonathan Reiner, director of the cardiac cath lab at George Washington University. He advised the White House medical team under President George W. Bush.
Thank you both for coming on.
Sanjay, I want to get to straight to it. There is a lot to talk about.
Today, AstraZeneca now announced it is the third company in the U.S. to start phase three vaccine trials. And this comes as the head of the FDA says his agency is willing to authorize a vaccine before phase three trials are over.
Is there any scenario in which you would be comfortable with that? A vaccine being released, being authorized for use before the phase three trial is over?
[19:35:06]
DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: I don't really think so, Pamela.
I mean, you know, you have to take this in a little context. This is the FDA which unfortunately also issued an emergency use authorization for hydroxychloroquine with no evidence behind that. They issued an EUA, this emergency use authorization for convalescent plasma and fudged or really misrepresented the data behind that. There is some concern.
But, you know, I was looking at the specific requirements today for emergency use authorization, put it up on the screen, what the sort of standard is for this sort of thing. They say for the FDA to issue an EUA, this emergency use authorization, there must be no adequate approved or available alternative to the candidate product for diagnosing, preventing, or treating the disease or condition. OK?
So, here is the thing. With a vaccine, and most people have heard this by now, the bar has to be higher. You are giving this to healthy people. If somebody is in the ICU on a breathing machine and you are saying let's do an emergency use authorization for a medicine that could potentially save the person, that's obviously different.
But you have to get this vaccine right. And if it means that we have to wear masks, which isn't that hard, for a few more months in order to make sure we got the vaccine right, that is a viable alternative versus an emergency use authorization for the vaccine. So, I really don't see a scenario where this should be rushed through in any -- in any sense.
BROWN: So there is that difference. The emergency use authorization would be for limited circumstances versus approval would be anyone could have access to the vaccine, right? GUPTA: Yeah. With the emergency use authorization sometimes they'll
say it is limited to certain populations, high risk populations be it health care workers or people in nursing homes. And again, I think everyone understands the utility of having a vaccine.
But the idea that you'd have to have a vaccine that has been shown to be effective and right now the standard has been set at 50 percent effectiveness. And, by the way, when you say 50 percent effectiveness, it's a bar graph, right? If you look carefully, what you find is the confidence interval suggests there may be some people for whom it's only 30 percent effective for example, but it's also got to be safe.
And you want to test this in lots of people to make sure it meets those requirements. That is what the phase three trials are all about.
BROWN: Right, that's what it's all about, right there.
And, Dr. Reiner, I want to talk about this retweet from the president, an article this weekend claiming that the real death toll from coronavirus is only around 9,000, not 183,000 because a large portion of those who died had underlying health issues.
Your reaction to this?
DR. JONATHAN REINER, CNN MEDICAL ANALYST: Yeah. It was really disturbing on two fronts. First of all, the tweet was from a QAnon conspiracy person who misrepresented what the CDC said. That's one part of it. The other part is that the president amplified that.
So, let's talk about the facts. What the CDC said is that 6 percent of people who have died of COVID-19 on their death certificate 6 percent only have COVID listed. The rest have other comorbidities with it. That is the practice in the United States.
When all deaths are actually submitted to the CDC so the CDC collates all deaths. A death certificate, and they get it from the death certificate. Every death certificate lists not just the primary cause like COVID-19 but also comorbidities. So, for instance if I certify that somebody has died of a heart attack, I write cause of death, myocardial infarction, secondary to diabetes and hypertension and that is all that this is.
It's just saying that in only 6 percent of the patients that was the only thing listed. It is meaningless. 181,000 have died of this, not 9,000 people.
BROWN: I just want to follow up with this because I have heard this argument a lot from people who try to downplay the numbers. Is it always clear when someone dies of COVID versus the comorbidity or is that pretty clear cut from filling that, when someone dies you have to fill out their death certificate?
REINER: Yes, it is. In fact, the FDA also tracks something called excess deaths. So, the FDA, the CDC. So the CDC knows in any given period of time how many Americans have died. And what we know is that over the past nine months there have been -- there's been excess of about 10 percent more deaths than usual, actually more than we've tracked simply for COVID.
So many people think that the actual number of COVID deaths is significantly higher than the currently reported number of a little over 180,000. And, you know, we know this from tracking historic controls.
[19:40:00]
BROWN: Because basically someone is found dead in their home, it could have been from COVID --
REINER: Who hasn't had a test --
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: And looking at the numbers they are so much higher than this time last year.
OK. Really quick, Sanjay, I want to get to this reporting from "The Washington Post" that Scott Atlas, one of Trump's top medical advisers is, according to "The Post", urging the White House to embrace herd immunity where you allow the virus to spread while taking steps to protect vulnerable populations. Now, we should note, Atlas denies this. But experts say as many as 2 million Americans could die if the fatality rate is just 1 percent.
How dangerous is this approach?
GUPTA: It is a terrible approach. I mean, this is exactly what we've been trying to avoid. People remember the term flatten the curve initially which in some ways, you know, was just an idea of trying to not let hospitals get overwhelmed.
But, look, you know, if you look and try to make a reasonable estimate, how many people in the country have possibly been infected right now, we know what the official number is but it is likely there's a lot more because as Jonathan was saying there's been so little testing and we don't know.
Let's say it is 10 percent of the country and we've had close to 200,000, 180,000 people who have died. Well, you know, when ten times more go through this disease, it could increase the death toll by tenfold as well. And that's where that 1.5 to two million number comes from.
Not only that, though, that's if you don't -- you don't completely overwhelm hospitals, too. A lot of people died, Pamela, because they can't get care. They die totally preventable deaths. Yes, they are dying of COVID. Sometimes they are dying in their homes because they can't get to the hospitals.
So, herd immunity is not a good idea because of the death toll. It is not a good idea because it seems like a bit of a fallacy now as we learn there are people who seem to get reinfected potentially after several months. It is not like once you've had it you're protected for good. So, it's not a good idea and it does sound, as you mentioned, that Dr.
Atlas walked that back at least today.
BROWN: Right, Dr. Reiner, what do you think about that?
REINER: Well, let's do the math this way. First of all, no one knows how many people would be required to have the virus in order to achieve herd immunity, but people estimate maybe 70 percent. So 70 percent of the U.S. population is about 210 million.
If using the most optimistic estimates of mortality, let's say half a percent, which would still be five times the seasonal flu, that equals about 1.1 million people dying. And as Sanjay just said, we don't know that immunity is going to last forever. It's nonsense.
And actually this is what Dr. Atlas testified in front of the Homeland Security Committee in May. His testimony is on record.
BROWN: All right. Dr. Reiner, thank you so much. Sanjay, stay with me, more to discuss.
And OUTFRONT up next, Dr. Sanjay Gupta returns with a special report seven months after the first case of coronavirus. The mysteries experts are still racing to solve.
Plus, could a 74-year-old senator who has been in Congress for almost 44 years be the first politician to beat a Kennedy in Massachusetts?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[19:47:27]
BROWN: Well, all week long, we were taking a look at what we know and don't about the coronavirus and its immense impact on Americans. It's been seven months since the first confirmed virus case, and the U.S. still unable to bring the crisis under control.
Sanjay Gupta is OUTFRONT.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
GUPTA (voice-over): A disease we hadn't even imagined a year ago is now the third leading cause of death in the United States and as much as we've learned about it, so many mysteries still remain.
Yes, we better understand the risk factors and they are stark. People 85 and older, 20 times more likely to die than people in their 50s. 60 times more likely to die than people in their 40s.
Add in cancer. In the largest review to date, 30 percent of those with cancer and COVID-19 died within a month. Obesity, increasing risk of death three to four times relative to those of normal weight and those with diabetes were three times more likely to be hospitalized.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The hospital is on lockdown.
GUPTA: And yet there are still too many stories like this.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No. That was it. I never got to say I love you.
GUPTA: Nicole Buchanan's husband Conrad was just 39 years old. Healthy, in the prime of his life.
DR. ANTHONY FAUCI, DIRECTOR, NATIONAL INSTITUTE OF ALLERGY AND INFECTIOUS DISEASES: You know, you get so many people who do well and then some people who just, bingo. They're on a respirator, they're on ECMO, and they're dead.
GUPTA: Through it all, the virus has been pretty constant, but how we react to it has considerably changed.
MELISSA MCKINLAY, PALM BEACH COUNTY COMMISSIONER: We've just got a lot of young people that were ready to get back out, want to go to restaurants, want to go to bars.
GUPTA: Here is the part that makes little sense. When there were fewer than 5,000 confirmed cases back in March, we started to shut things down.
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We'd much rather be ahead of the curve than behind it.
GUPTA: But now, there are more than 6 million people who have been infected and we are pushing to open things back up. And even though we've been told nearly 70,000 Americans could possibly be saved by the end of the year if we just wore masks in public --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Please wear your masks --
GUPTA: It seems too much to ask. And that's why models now estimate that a thousand people will die ever day for the rest of the year. That is an American losing their life to this disease every minute. And sometimes there are those truly stuck in the middle.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I've been treated as COVID for 97 days.
GUPTA: They even have a name now, the long haulers.
[19:50:03]
The most basic question is still unclear. If you get this disease, how likely are you to die? Researchers estimate that likelihood is about 0.6 percent, that's still six times more than the flu. We have made incremental strides with therapeutics, the antiviral remdesivir, steroid dexamethasone.
Most recently, the FDA granted emergency use authorization for convalescent plasma, that's donated antibodies from people who've been previously infected. And, of course, we all wait for a vaccine, which most say won't be available to the general public until next spring.
(on camera): You made a list the other day. I'll just rattle them off with the audience, if we wore masks, we kept physical distance, if we shut down bars or indoor closely crowded situations, but large gatherings, and washed hands often, those --
FAUCI: Outdoors much better than indoors, always.
GUPTA: That's the point.
(voice-over): If we did just that, within a few weeks, we could be looking at the backside of this curve, but astonishingly, disturbingly, it doesn't look like we're going to lean into the basics. I often wonder what the history books will tell our great grandchildren of this time.
We didn't learn the lessons quickly 100 years ago during the flu pandemic and 675,000 people died in the United States. We have to apply lessons we've learned quickly so that we can do better this time around.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GUPTA: And I got to tell you, Pamela, you know, this idea that we tend to look at things in sort of binary terms, either you have the disease and you've recovered or you don't, we now are learning much more about these patients who are called the long haulers.
If they had relatively mild symptoms initially can have very long persistent symptoms still. You know, you think it was related to how sick you were in the first place doesn't seem to matter. So, that's an area they are starting to study.
BROWN: Yeah, that's a frightening -- that's a frightening aspect of this. And people don't know if they're going to be a long hauler or not if they are infected with coronavirus.
GUPTA: That's right.
BROWN: Sanjay Gupta, thanks for bringing this up. Really important story.
GUPTA: You got it. Thank you.
BROWN: And OUTFRONT up next, we are just hours from one of the most closely watched primaries this year. A young Kennedy on the ballot in Massachusetts but can he unseat a 74-year-old incumbent?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. ED MARKEY (D-MA): Because it's about ideas, I am the youngest guy in this race.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[19:56:45]
BROWN: Well, tonight, in the fight for 2020, an unusual dynamic emerging in Massachusetts, ahead of tomorrow's Democratic Senate primary, the incumbent in his 70s with support from progressives. His challenger, young and a Kennedy.
Manu Raju is OUTFRONT.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MANU RAJU, CNN SENIOR CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): He hails from a political dynasty, the grandson of the late Robert F. Kennedy, campaigning to serve in the Senate like his famous great uncles and grandfather before him.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I love the Kennedys. I do. I think you'll do a great job.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I love the Kennedys.
REP. JOE KENNEDY (D-MA): Thank you.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I have all the "life" magazine.
RAJU: But 39-year-old Joe Kennedy is facing something unexpected, a 74-year-old senator was in Congress for almost 44 years and was managed to galvanize the support of young voters ahead of Tuesday's Massachusetts Senate primary.
SCOTIA HILLE, MARKEY SUPPORTER: I think that a lot of young people that are our age and at least from our town have been similarly really inspired by Ed Markey.
RAJU: Polls show Senator Ed Markey as the favorite, threatening to make the four-term congressman the first Kennedy to lose a race in Massachusetts.
Unlike other primaries this year, where Democratic incumbents have been ousted by liberal new comers, Markey has managed to Trump that dynamic on its head.
MARKEY: Because it's about ideas, I am the youngest guy in this race.
Alexandria --
RAJU: It's been Markey with the mantle of the insurgent, toting his support of liberal causes, like the Green New Deal and endorsement of the progressive firebrand Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez.
MARKEY: That's the green new deal I introduced with Alexandria Ocasio- Cortez. Health care justice is on the ballot. That's Medicare for All. I stood next to Bernie Sanders when he introduced it.
RAJU: Yet, it's been Kennedy with the backing of the party's establishment leader Speaker Nancy Pelosi.
Kennedy allies have been frustrated that Markey has not been held to account for his full record over four decades, like his backing of the Iraq war in 2002, the NAFTA deal in 1993, his position on racial issues like school desegregation dating back to the 1970s. KENNEDY: If the progressive movement is willing to overlook those
hurdles, then that's up to a progressive movement. I think an awful lot of folks in many parts of Massachusetts have a different view of that record and what that means to our communities.
RAJU: After going door to door and working across Boston neighborhoods, Kennedy accused Markey of abandoning the state.
KENNEDY: He spends less time in the state than anybody else in the delegation.
GUPTA: In an interview with CNN, Markey fired back.
MARKEY: There is no real record of Congressman Kennedy in his eight years leaning on issues of generational change in Washington.
GUPTA: Kennedy has waited until late in the campaign to stress that it's his family legacy --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's a fight for his blood.
GUPTA: -- he wants to continue in the Senate.
KENNEDY: I've tried to be really clear that it's me on the ballot. It's not my father or my grandfather or anybody else, and you vote for me, you're going to get me.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GUPTA: Now, if Kennedy does pull off an upset on Tuesday night, it could be thanks in part to the fact that both he and his allies have spent more on television advertising than Markey and his allies, roughly $2 million more but if he loses, what Kennedy would do next is still an open question.
We posed that question to him. He didn't want to entertain it and said he looks forward to running to the finish line and celebrating on Tuesday night -- Pam.
BROWN: All right. We'll be watching to see how it plays out. Thank you, Manu, and thanks for joining us.
"AC360" starts now.
