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Erin Burnett Outfront
Fauci Warns Of Possible Surge "Superimposed" On Top Of Surge Due To Holiday Travel, Says January "Could Be Very Difficult"; Trump Appears To Threaten Veto Of Coronavirus Relief Package; Biden Slams Trump For Downplaying Cyber Attack. Aired 7-8p ET
Aired December 22, 2020 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
WOLF BLITZER, CNN HOST: Thanks very much for watching. I'm Wolf Blitzer in THE SITUATION ROOM. You can always follow me on Twitter and Instagram @WOLFBLITZER. You can tweet the show @CNNSITROOM.
"ERIN BURNETT OUTFRONT" starts right now.
KATE BOLDUAN, CNN HOST: OUTFRONT next, the President spiraling downward tonight, still fixated on the election which he lost. And there's new concern at this hour about damage he could do in his final days. Has Donald Trump let the conspiracy theorists take charge?
Plus, a new and potentially more contagious strain of coronavirus is likely already in the U.S. according to Dr. Anthony Fauci as he warns about holiday travel dangers. How worried should we all be?
And Joe Biden slamming the President for his response to the massive cyber attack on the government. The President-elect warning it's not under control. Let's go OUTFRONT.
Good evening, everyone. I'm Kate Bolduan in for Erin Burnett.
OUTFRONT tonight, we do have breaking news, people close to the President sounding the alarm, concerned about what they see as his increasingly unhinged and delusional efforts to overturn the 2020 election. One senior Republican close to the President telling our Jeremy Diamond tonight, "We're watching a petulant child not getting his way throw a tantrum."
The problem here is that tantrum could have grave national security consequences for the country, something President-elect Joe Biden called out today at his year-end press conference saying he will handle the massive cyber attack against the U.S. because Donald Trump has not.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT-ELECT OF THE UNITED STATES: This assault happened on Donald Trump's watch when he wasn't watching. He still has a responsibility as president to defend American interests for the next four weeks. But rest assured that even if he does not take it seriously, I will. It is a grave risk and it continues. I see no evidence that it's under control. I see none. Heard of none.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BOLDUAN: An anxiety is rising at the Pentagon too tonight over what the President will do in his final days in office. The concern heightened by the fact that the President hasn't been seen publicly in days. Rather, he's been holed up inside the White House meeting with a variety of conspiracy theorists.
I'm going to break in. We're going to get to all of this in just a second. I'm going to get over to Pamela Brown, though, she has some breaking news coming in with regard to the very big issue of pardons, Pamela.
PAMELA BROWN, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: That's right. A press release just came out from the White House with President Trump announcing nearly 20 pardons including two defendants who pleaded guilty in the Russia investigation. That would be George Papadopoulos and Alex van der Zwaan.
Republican allies who served in Congress once, Chris Collins and Duncan Hunter, and four Blackwater guards involved in the war crimes in Iraq. Also included in the batch are two Border Patrol agents convicted in 2006 after shooting and wounded an unarmed undocumented immigrant and then covering it up. And there are also several people who were convicted of nonviolent drug crimes that have been serving lengthy sentences that are on this list of pardons.
Now, the more high profile pardons, Kate, that we're going through came at the recommendation of Trump allies in Congress and in some cases conservative media. That seems to be a common thread here. Many of them have been hailed by right wing media as heroes who were treated justly.
Two pardons in the Russia probe are notable, Kate, because Papadopoulos and van der Zwaan were two of the first defendants charged in the probe and who pleaded guilty to lying to federal investigators. As you know, Papadopoulos was an adviser to the Trump campaign who pleaded guilty to lying about his discussions with Russians.
Now, in the press release, it is notable that the White House tonight says today's pardon helps correct the wrongs that Mueller's team inflicted on so many people. The President is still clearly aggrieved by the Russia probe into his campaign's contacts with Russians and he's sending a clear message with these pardons that this is payback essentially, even though they had both pleaded guilty. And this follows, of course, the pardon a month ago of Trump's former National Security Adviser, Michael Flynn, who also pleaded guilty in the Russia probe to lying.
Now, former Republican Congressman Duncan Hunter who was sentenced to 11 months earlier this year for misuse of more than $200,000 in campaign funds for personal expenses will now not serve any time behind bars with this pardon today. And then you have former Republican Congressman Chris Collins, who was an early ally of the President. He was sent to prison in October of this year for insider trading activity he engaged in while on White House grounds according to investigators.
And Kate we should note you have nearly 20 today but this is just the beginning of a flurry of pardons we expect from President Trump before his term ends.
BOLDUAN: Absolutely. And Pamela on George Papadopoulos just specifically to call it out, I mean, this is a name that became a very well known household name with regards to the Mueller report.
[19:05:08]
But this is the man that was at the very beginning of why there was an FBI investigation into the potential of Russia's interference in the 2016 election. And it's also noteworthy that his wife made a splash of trying to make a public plea for a pardon all along the way.
BROWN: Yes, absolutely. George Papadopoulos was sort of thrust into the spotlight, first of all, being the first person in the Russia probe to be charged. He had pleaded guilty to lying to investigators about his contacts with Russians.
And you're right, the Russia probe essentially originated with the conversation he had with the Australian ambassador, where he talked about his contacts with Russians and the fact that they knew about Hillary Clinton's emails and they could be releasing dirt about them. And that's led to a slew of activity that then eventually formed into the Russia probe that was taken over by special counsel, Robert Mueller.
Now, George Papadopoulos has been very outspoken. He has been very public about the fact he wanted a pardon from President Trump. He also ran for Congress along the way and so in some ways, that pardon in particular is not a surprise. We have expected the President to issue a pardon to George Papadopoulos.
We know that he has been looking at various people who were charged and convicted in the Russia probe that he could pardon. George Papadopoulos was on that list and now we're finding out today just before Christmas that he is one of the nearly 20 people receiving a pardon by President Trump.
BOLDUAN: Absolutely. Pamela is digging into this. Pamela, thank you so much.
With we are now is CNN Senior Justice Correspondent Evan Perez, former Counsel to the U.S. Assistant - the two Assistant Attorney General for National Security, Carrie Cordero and former Assistant Special Watergate Prosecutor Nick Akerman.
I'm looking just counting up this list as we've just getting this press release, Evan. Twenty people on this list in there, what sticks out to you, because you do send some themes throughout?
EVAN PEREZ, CNN SENIOR JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Yes. One of the things in looking over this list, the first thing that occurred to me is that this appears to be a Fox News list. A lot of these people are people who are celebrated on Fox News and in right-wing media as having been wronged for some reason.
We have, for instance, the Blackwater guards who were convicted of war crimes, if you listen to a judge who said essentially, sentenced them harsh sentences, saying that he wanted this would be an example to future generations to not commit war crimes.
You have these border guards who were accused of firing on illegal immigrants. Again, something that you hear on the right-wing, certainly, a lot of times that these border guards were wrongly prosecuted by the Justice Department. And, of course, you have the President's supporters, Duncan Hunter, Chris Collins.
Chris Collins was one of the first members of Congress to support the President in public at a time ...
BOLDUAN: Duncan Hunter as well.
PEREZ: ... and Duncan Hunter, right, at a time when he was not the favored candidate. And Chris Collins, as Pamela mentioned, according to prosecutors committed some of his crimes while on White House grounds. I mean, that is stunning for the President to turnaround. He just finally showed up to prison in October and he's going to be out.
Duncan Hunter who misused his campaign funds, he and his wife were accused of, he accused of that. He wasn't supposed to show up until January. He's not going to serve any time in prison.
I remember, Kate, I talked to the prosecutor who prosecuted Duncan Hunter just a few weeks ago and he told me one reason why he stuck around as long as he did. He was supposed to retire from the Justice Department earlier this year, he stuck around simply because he was fearful that Trump was going to intervene and try to do something in his case as he did with others, like the Roger Stone case.
And so this is going to come a stunning use to the prosecutors and to the agents who work that case.
BOLDUAN: Nick, what do you think of this?
NICK AKERMAN, FMR. ASSISTANT SPECIAL WATERGATE PROSECUTOR: I think it's an absolute misuse of the pardon power. I mean, it's just mentioned he's using it for political purposes to make political statements. But the real key here is what he is trying to do to undermine what Robert Mueller's investigation did.
I mean, he's starting now with two of the minor people. He's already pardoned his political advisor, Roger Stone, who was convicted of covering up for him. He's pardoned Michael Flynn who's basically lied about his conversations with the Russian ambassador on behalf of Trump.
[19:10:00]
And the one person that's really missing from this list, which I believe will be pardon before January 20th, is going to be Paul Manafort, the campaign manager, who was the in between the Russian government and the Trump campaign in 2016 and dealt with the Russian intelligence agent, Konstantin Kilimnik, who was the person who took all of that polling data, that very granular data and took it back to St. Petersburg, where the Russian operatives used it to suppress the Hillary Clinton vote.
So I think you see it being used for political purposes. You see it being at the beginning to undermine what were the accomplishments of the Mueller investigation (inaudible) to keep (inaudible) quiet. He doesn't want people (inaudible) the next person that's going to be on this list, mark my words is Paul Manafort.
BOLDUAN: And this might not be over right, this might be the middle of the ballgame in terms of the pardons, Carrie.
PEREZ: These are the early innings, I think.
BOLDUAN: Early innings, however, you want to play it, Evan. But, Carrie, but it's still 20 names on this list. What do you think of this?
CARRIE CORDERO, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Yes. I agree that this is the first wave of pardoned season that we're going to see. And I think about the pardons that I expect the President to give in three different categories. So the first category as Nick was describing is the unraveling of the Mueller investigation. And so the President had already started that with prior pardons and now there's two more that he's added tonight.
The second wave is those that he is willing to pardon based on lobbying from celebrities, from political allies. Maybe those also fall into the category that Evan was describing in terms of Fox News folks who go on there. But individuals that he is sort of lobbied by others in his political orbit to pardon. And then the third is friends and family, which is really not part of this list.
But those are the three categories that I see. I think that these 20 pardons, generally, we could put into the first couple categories. And I do have to underscore that the Blackwater guards in particular, I think for those who have been involved in criminal prosecution, those who adhere to the rule of law and want to see the rule of law uphold, those are probably sort of the most offensive on the list.
That's not to minimize the white collar crime provisions that are being pardoned tonight, but those in particular, I think, are definitely aggressive and unusual use of the pardon power.
BOLDUAN: Evan, there is some great reporting from our colleagues, Pamela Brown, and Kevin Liptak and Jeremy Diamond kind of leading up to this, about just the flood that was coming at the White House for pardon requests. And while the President has all but given up governing and doing the job, this was something that he really did enjoy going through - but it speaks to what you have heard from the Justice side for a long time.
This is something that he really enjoys. He loves this power. It's something he cares deeply about. But he's also been known to go around the regular process, which includes going through the Justice Department to vet all these. I wonder if any or how many of these went through that regular process.
PEREZ: Right. And that's one question we're trying to research right now trying to figure out whether any of these went through the Justice Department. I'll tell you this that before today the vast majority of the President's clemencies have not gone through the Justice Department. This an entire bureaucracy set up there that is supposed to review these pardons, you have to have, for instance, you have to have been convicted or pleaded five years ago.
You have to show that you're sorry, you accept responsibility for what you did and basically you're sorry for what you did. And some of the people on this list like Duncan Hunter, Chris Collins would definitely not qualify to even apply for clemency through the Justice Department process.
This President has essentially used a much more unorthodox system, which is listening to the Kardashians, listening to Fox News hosts, Rudy Giuliani appears to be doing a brisk business in Washington right now, with people who are approaching asking for help with pardons. He's got the ear of the President.
So there's a lot of very unorthodox conduct happening and, Kate, you have to remember that the President's pardon power is unencumbered. It's his power and this is one of the things that he's been fascinated with ever since he realized when he took office, he realized that this is something that Congress cannot really touch him on.
And so, look, one of the things we're waiting for is whether or not he decides to pardon himself. That is a big question that we'll see answered between now and January 20th.
[19:15:05]
BOLDUAN: And Nick, that's a question I know I've discussed with you in the past, but we did hear from the Attorney General, well, soon to be former Attorney General as of tomorrow. He was asked about that this week in a press conference.
And Bill Barr, he dodged the question of self-pardoning. He did not take the question. He said he wasn't going to weigh in on it. What do you think? Talk to me again about where you think this lands, do you think this could happen?
AKERMAN: I mean, it surely could happen. If anybody were to do it, it would be Donald Trump, who would do it. But is it valid? I don't think so. I mean, the Constitution gives him the power to grant pardons. Grant is a transitive verb, the object of which is a third party, somebody else. That's the way it was back in the 1700s, it was written in the Constitution, and it's the way it's done today.
BOLDUAN: But you forget, Nick, that Donald Trump talks about himself and the third person all the time.
AKERMAN: That's a good argument that they might try to make before the Supreme Court. But keep in mind, the odds of this being - of actually ever been challenged, first of all, his biggest danger right now is prosecution by the state DA in Manhattan for our criminal tax violations. None of those can be reached by his own pardon of himself even if he were to step down and a President Pence then pardoned him.
He cannot be pardoned for state crimes. Pardons don't reach that far. And the only way this is ever going to be challenged is if he actually is indicted for federal crimes and then interposes this pardon of himself as a defense. I mean, it's very hypothetical.
BOLDUAN: The first wave has happened, but it's not going to be the last is what it sounds like. Thank you guys very much. I really appreciate it. We're going to continue to follow the breaking news. See what more comes out of this tonight.
OUTFRONT for us though next, the growing concern in the White House who the President is listening to.
And Dr. Anthony Fauci with a new warning heading into the holidays as concern grows about the new strain of the coronavirus.
Plus, the President-elect says that Russia will pay the price for its apparent hack of America's government agencies. But what exactly does Joe Biden mean?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[19:21:15]
BOLDUAN: As I started to say at the top of the show, our other breaking news tonight, people close to the President are sounding the alarm concerned about what they see as his increasingly unhinged and delusional efforts to overturn the 2020 election. One senior Republican close to the President telling our Jeremy Diamond tonight, "We're watching a petulant child not getting his way throw a tantrum."
And anxiety is rising at the Pentagon too tonight over what the President will do in his final days in office. The concern heightened by the fact that the President hasn't been seen publicly in days. Rather he's been holed up inside the White House meeting with a variety of conspiracy theorists, egging on the President in his increasingly unhinged push to try and overturn the 2020 election results.
Conspiracy theorist, Sidney Powell has visited the White House three of the last four days. The President has also met with Rudy Giuliani, Michael Flynn and also incoming Congresswoman who has publicly supported QAnon. Jeremy Diamond is OUTFRONT at the White House for us. Jeremy, what more are people around the President telling you tonight about this?
JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Kate, there's a lot of concern among the President's top advisors and other people close to the President about the way in which he is handling these final weeks in office and these increasingly unhinged and desperate efforts to overturn the results of the election. You read off that quote of senior Republican official close to the President told me which is that they are comparing the President to a petulant child who is throwing a tantrum.
And there is also concern about the people who are feeding the President this misinformation, the sycophants around the President who are essentially telling him that he can overturn the results of the election when there really is no viable path to actually accomplishing that task. That senior Republican close to the President telling me that those people think they're helping the President, but they're really hurting him. They are not serving him well by doing that.
Now, there is also a growing hope inside the White House that this presidency will soon come to an end. They are eager, many people inside the White House are eager to see this presidency come to an end. Bryan Lanza, former Trump campaign adviser who is still close to folks at the White House told me that the countdown calendar can't come fast enough for some. And so that really is the mindset over here at the White House as the President continues these efforts to try and overturn this election by any means possible, Kate?
BOLDUAN: Jeremy, thank you.
OUTFRONT with me now is Republican Congressman Denver Riggleman. He's leaving Congress at the end of this term. Juliette Kayyem, former Assistant Secretary of Homeland Security in the Obama administration and John Avlon, our Senior Political Analyst.
Congressman, you've talked on the House floor about the need to, in your words that I remember them because they really stick with me, inoculate the country from the social contagion of misinformation and conspiracy theories. But how can you do that when it's the President inviting this into the Oval Office?
REP. DENVER RIGGLEMAN (R-VA): It's very difficult and thanks for having me on. I think what we have right now, when I saw who he invited to the Oval Office, a few of the people surprised me. But birds of a feather flock together and if you look at who he's inviting, it's not those that are talking reasonable talking about facts and talking about this transition, and how it should happen as quickly as possible.
And I have an example of this, you have to fight this with data and the only way to do that is to really use it as the sort of blunt force facts. We just had a report come out from the Network Contagion Research Institute, we showed a troll. This is back in May, I think President Obama would want to know about this, that a troll actually created the subpoena Obama hashtag and the Obama gate hashtag.
In less than two days after that troll put that out. I'm talking about a cue (ph) account that was way down in the weeds. President Trump actually tweeted it. That is very dangerous and what we're seeing or we're seeing trolls, almost a basement type of mythology actually creating policy in the Oval Office.
[19:25:06] And I think that should frighten everybody and right now with me with
my background on Intel dealing with ISIS and how radicalization happens, that's why I've been screaming about this. Even on the floor, but even months ago with the QAnon resolution.
BOLDUAN: That is terrifying when you put it the way you just did.
John, I want to play for you some of what a longtime Trump supporter, conservative televangelist Pat Robertson actually has said today now speaking out against the President.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PAT ROBERTSON, TELEVANGELIST: With all his talent and the ability to raise money and draw large crowds, the President still lives in an alternate reality. He really does. People say, well, he lies about this, that, and the other. Well, no, he doesn't lie. To him, that's the truth.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BOLDUAN: I think it's striking that Pat Robertson is now even saying Trump is living in an alternate reality. Do you think with his enormous following that he could get through to the President?
JOHN AVLON, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: I don't think he can get through to the President. But when you lost Pat Robertson, you've got a problem, certainly with some evangelicals who will listen to him. And this is the problem with Trump acting like much more than a petulant child, much more than a sore loser, but someone who fundamentally disrespects our democracy.
But I think Robertson's language was interesting there. You saw him say, well, he lives in an alternate reality. People say he lies, but it's not true. This is about something that Jeremy Diamond mentioned, this idea that President is a petulant child. What we're witnessing is much worse than normalization of a president trying to overthrow an election, committing sedition, refusing to condemn a country that attacked our country.
We're looking at the infantilization of a president, but this person still has nuclear clothes. So when he surrounds himself with all manners of wing nuts, trying to feed his ego to overturn our elections, the people who feed into that who are afraid to call it out are absolutely complicit in this because he is plotting to commit sedition, and he is acting like someone giving aid and comfort to an enemy.
BOLDUAN: But Juliette it's not like Donald Trump has been fostered and been open to conspiracy theories his entire adult life. I mean, is this more concerning, though, as the President and some of his supporters see this as something of a final stand?
JULIETTE KAYYEM, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: Right. It is. It's much worse, because this is about the peaceful transition of power. Well, let me just begin with this, this is an embarrassment, I want to start with that. Any person still working for Donald Trump is embarrassing themselves and embarrassing the United States of America.
But it's also dangerous and it's not dangerous for this 30 day period, I think we'll be OK. It will be crazy, but it's probably going to just result in pardons like what we just saw.
It is dangerous for the Biden presidency. We have a president who is not validating the next president of the United States. He's making the transition difficult. He's putting in crazy people into all of these commissions into the defense department, intelligence boards and this is what he's leaving President Biden.
So this is an affront to America and to the Oval Office and what it means to be President of the United States. But it's but it's actually an affront to all of us and our safety and security. I'm so tired of talking about Trump's feelings.
I mean, we are going to inherit this mess between the Russia hack, agitation in the Pentagon, all of these losers in these positions throughout the government, a COVID and it's going to sort of land on President-elect Biden's plate on January 20th, when it could have been so much better if Trump and his people could just stop looking at their belly buttons and recognize that there's something bigger.
BOLDUAN: Juliette mentioned it, Congressman. I want to get your quick reaction to what we've been reporting on this hour, the President's wave of pardons. They think there are actually former members of Congress that are on this list, Collins, Hunter and Stockman. What do you think of that?
RIGGLEMAN: I don't think I'm shocked. I mean, I think it's wrong, but I'm not shocked about it. And I know some of those individuals like Duncan and like Chris. I know what they did and for them to be pardoned for some of those things, I'm sure they're happy tonight. But for our justice system, I think we should be a little bit shocked.
And when I look at George Papadopoulos, I read the Mueller report, when you look at that this guy was hired off LinkedIn, I don't know if you guys know this or not with only a three or four-day vetting period, you got somebody that was not there with any type of sort of bona fide to do the job that he had and he was there for the grip.
And you talked about earlier about what's going on and, John, I was listening to you very closely when you're talking about this. I think when we're looking at what he's surrounding himself with that they're making a lot of money. There's a grift going on here.
And that's the thing that really worries me is not only when you see the pardons, when you see the grift that's going on, when you see the type of behavior that's happening, I think all this comes together is that when you talk about conspiracy theories, you also talk about a sickness.
[19:30:04]
And it seems like that that's sort of overtaken the White House right now. BOLDUAN: And looking through this, John, I will tell you that it does
come full circle to our -- to our conversation. Some of the members of Congress that were at the White House last night plotting with the president for this last stand to disrupt the Electoral College announcement, they're some of the people who are on the endorsements of these pardons and that's who the president is listening to.
I mean, what do you -- what do these pardons tell you about what else is coming?
AVLON: Very clear categories, right? Political cronies, people who have profited off politics and people who have lied to investigators. All I think say a great deal about a president who engages in projection every day.
And this is just the opening salvo. It will get worse. But if you look at the president's pardoning power and what the founders wanted it to be used for, this is an absolute insult to that. And the president will push it as far as he can. But this is a disgrace. You got political cronies, grifters and war criminals. That's who the president is choosing to give his pardon power to.
BOLDUAN: Juliette, every president has controversial pardons at the ending, though. Give me your take.
KAYYEM: So, I'm focused on the Blackwater and Customs and Border Protection ones. To me those say to the military, to the contractors, to law enforcement, to people who may be radicalized by the president's talk, his unwillingness to have a peaceful transition, go be violent, go abuse the rule of law, and you could be forgiven.
This is what is -- I think those pardons, I get -- in some ways I get the political ones because they have been -- you know, he's so corrupt from the beginning. These to me are scary because the Blackwater ones in particular are about, you know, basically, you know, killing Iraqi civilians.
I mean, this is what he's approving and applauding. That sort of abuse of power is something that Trump has always applauded. He's always liked it in law enforcement and the military and now he's giving it carte blanche.
That's the one that I'm looking at a little bit -- you know, I can only be disappointed so much, but let's just say, you know, 29 days can't come soon enough.
BOLDUAN: Thank you all very much.
OUTFRONT next, Dr. Anthony Fauci warning about a possible surge upon a surge. Doctors on the front lines of this COVID crisis are already overwhelmed, though.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What has 2020 been like for you?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's like hell and back. It's hard. I'm stressed.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BOLDUAN: And Joe Biden slamming the president, blaming him for the dangerous cyberattack against the government. The president-elect promising to take action.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[19:36:41]
BOLDUAN: We have breaking news. Dr. Anthony Fauci warning a dangerous surge could be coming after the holidays. Fauci telling Wolf Blitzer just a short time ago that he is worried about the amount of travel that he's seeing.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. ANTHONY FAUCI, DIRECTOR, NATIONAL INSTITUTE OF ALLERGY AND INFECTIOUS DISEASES: This type of travel is risky, particularly if people start congregating when they get to their destination in larger crowds, in indoor settings. I'm afraid that if in fact we see this happen, we will have a surge that's superimposed upon the difficult situation we are already in. So, it could be a very difficult January coming up if these things happen.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BOLDUAN: This as British scientists are saying that they are highly confident that the new strain of coronavirus that they have seen could be up to 71 percent more transmissible and that there is a, quote, hint it is also more transmissible in children.
OUTFRONT with me now, groundbreaking HIV and AIDS researcher, Professor William Haseltine. He's also the author of the book, "My Lifelong Fight Against Disease: From Polio and HIV/AIDS to COVID-19."
And also with us is Dr. Jonathan Reiner, medical adviser for the George W. Bush White House. It's great to see you both again.
Professor, when you hear all of this, are you more or less worried about this new coronavirus strain this evening?
WILLIAM HASELTINE, GROUNDBREAKING HIV/AIDS RESEARCHER: I think we're all concerned. We're all on the alert. This is the -- actually one of two new strains. There's another one in South Africa that seems to have very similar characteristics, much more highly transmissible, and transmissible to children and capable of causing disease in children. We don't know if it's going to kill adults more and we don't know if it's going to evade vaccines, but both of those are possible. We just don't know yet. It's on top of this travel, on top of the big pandemic we already have, these are worrying times.
BOLDUAN: And, Dr. Reiner, Dr. Fauci when he was speaking with Wolf, he said -- the way he put it was it does not appear to have any impact on making the virus more deadly or more serious. We know there's research going on to see exactly how this virus really interacts. But being more infectious, do you think this means that we are going to need to see more, not less restrictions in the coming weeks to slow the spread of the virus?
DR. JONATHAN REINER, CNN MEDICAL ANALYST: I think we very well may need more restrictions in the hottest spots in the United States. When you look at places like Los Angeles where they have basically run out of ICU capacity. In regions of the country like that, you have no choice but to increase restrictions.
You know, there are parts of the country where there are really glimmers of hope that we're starting to sort of crest and see the beginnings of a decline in daily cases, places like the Midwest where I think there's a clear decline in daily cases and maybe a sense in the Northeast that the Northeast has plateaued and also might be beginning to decline.
Unfortunately, this is Christmas week. If people would stay home, we might be able to start to get our hands around this as we're starting to vaccinate now hundreds of thousands and soon millions and millions of people. But traveling is going to give us another spike. If you stay home, you're not cancelling Christmas.
[19:40:02]
You know, our hope is that by staying home and preventing the further spread of this virus, we're preventing people that we love, people that you love from being cancelled permanently. It's -- this is not the time to travel. People should stay home.
BOLDUAN: Yeah. I mean, Professor, I have to admit I'm not really sure what to make of some of the new data that we're hearing from the U.K. when the scientists are saying that they're confident the strain is more infectious and that the data hints it's more transmissible in children. Obviously, we know how this has gone is maybe one of the silver linings of this virus so far is that children have been less affected by the coronavirus.
I'm just wondering if this is now more concerning?
HASELTINE: It definitely is more concerning. And the reason for that is that it probably takes fewer numbers of virus for shorter periods of time to infect somebody. And what's happening with children may be a reflection of that. The virus can stick more tightly to the receptors.
And although children have fewer receptor, it can find them, stick to those, get in and then start to cause trouble. And what we're seeing in South Africa, let me repeat, there's another virus different from this one but having the same characteristics. Already the health ministry there, I've just been reading the reports, are reporting that it's causing illness in children under 12 at a much higher rate than it was before.
It's a little bit of --
BOLDUAN: Why is it --
HASELTINE: Go ahead.
BOLDUAN: Sorry, professor. Why is it we've heard so much then about the U.K. strain, if you will, and the world has reacted so strongly to the U.K. strain, but not nearly as much about this other strain?
HASELTINE: Well, the reason for that is the U.K. story came first. And of course the U.K. is a lot closer to us than South Africa. We receive about, let me see, about 35 to 40 million visitors a month from the U.K. Nothing like that from South Africa.
So the chance of the virus they have got coming here is probably already here is pretty high. That's one of the real differences.
BOLDUAN: Dr. Reiner, the president-elect gave year-end remarks today. I have to say it was a really tough holiday message. I'd like to play just a bit of it for you.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOE BIDEN (D), PRESIDENT-ELECT: Here's the simple truth. Our darkest days in the battle against COVID are ahead of us, not behind us. So we need to prepare ourselves to steel our spines.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BOLDUAN: With all of that in mind now, what do you think the country is going to look like when Joe Biden takes over in 30 days?
REINER: Let's see, 30 days, perhaps 100,000 more deaths in this country at our current rate. Hospitals filled.
On the positive side, several million people in this country will have been vaccinated with more vaccine on the way. And I think in 30 days, we'll be well into starting to vaccinate non-first responders, people like the elderly over 75 or other high-risk groups.
So we have to get through the next few months. We need to be vigilant against -- about new strains. There's a lot of science to do to understand whether vaccines need to be adjusted going forward to make sure they're potent against the new strains. We heard today from BioNTech saying they have the rapid ability to do that if necessary.
But I think, you know, going forward we have the ability to return to more of a normal life by the summer. We have to get through this very dark time. But we can only do that by masking up and staying put.
BOLDUAN: Doctor, Professor, thank you.
So the U.S. is tragically nearing 3,000 coronavirus deaths already tonight. While in Texas, hospitalizations are approaching previous record highs and cases are up 55 percent from their July peak.
Miguel Marquez is OUTFRONT.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MIGUEL MARQUEZ, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Houston's United Memorial Medical Center, patient after patient on a ventilator. Their lungs devastated by COVID-19.
DR. JOSEPH VARON, CHIEF MEDICAL OFFICER, UNITED MEMORIAL MEDICAL CENTER: This is (INAUDIBLE), it's from deep inside the lungs.
MARQUEZ: This is your test (ph)?
VARON: This is -- this is -- this is COVID. This is COVID. This is what COVID looks inside the lung. You can see a lot of mucus and some cells.
MARQUEZ: The lungs swollen and red in this elderly patient. The sample will be sent to a lab to find out what else might be happening in their lungs.
VARON: The question is, are they not healthy just because of COVID or is there a secondary infection, which is common.
MARQUEZ: We visited this same hospital in late June, then two wings of the hospital had been transformed into COVID-19 wards. Today, prepping for what's to come, there are three.
[19:45:01]
VARON: The next six weeks are going to be the darkest weeks in modern American medical history.
MARQUEZ: Even though the vaccine is being rolled out?
VARON: Absolutely, because think about it, the vaccine is going to take between six and eight weeks to get immunity. We're right during Christmas where people are not listening.
MARQUEZ: About 40 percent of patients at this Houston hospital are from other parts of the state, reeling from overwhelming illness.
Across the Lone Star State, cases exploding. The seven-day average of positive cases hitting records far above where they were in June.
Walter Cuellar was transferred from West Texas, about 500 miles away. He thinks he and his wife picked up the virus at the supermarket. She had mild symptoms. Today, he's on the mend but when he arrived, he was nearly put on a ventilator.
WALTER CUELLAR, TRUCK DRIVER: Her and I are the only ones wearing the mask. The rest of the people are not wearing a mask.
MARQUEZ: Bri Smith works with foreign exchange students and recently moved to Columbus, Texas, west of Houston.
BRI SMITH, CORONAVIRUS PATIENT: It is the worst I ever felt.
MARQUEZ: She too thinks she got the virus while shopping. She has a husband and three kids. She wasn't sure she'd see them again.
SMITH: I love you very much. And I miss you so much. I can't wait to come home.
MARQUEZ: The staff here from Dr. Varon to nurses to those who clean up are tired and stressed. What has 2020 been like for you?
TANNA INGRAHAM, ICU NURSE WHO GOT CORONAVIRUS: It's like hell and back. It's hard. I'm stressed.
MARQUEZ: We met ICU nurse Tanna Ingraham in June. Then she was a patient having picked up COVID-19, she thinks, while performing CPR on a patient. She got COVID a second time. She's not sure how. After nine months of dealing with sickness and death, she's back at work with a message.
INGRAHAM: It's like we're nonexistent. It's like you do realize that we're still here taking care of these people, putting my life at risk, putting my kids' life at risk, my mom's life. I think we've -- we've been forgotten, truly.
MARQUEZ: Something else new from June, says Dr. Varon. Patients are coming in sicker, having waited longer before seeking medical care.
VARON: Our average patient has spent about 20 days with symptoms before they come to us. So, I mean even if I give them holy water, after 20 days of symptoms, it's going to be difficult for them to get better.
MARQUEZ: Richard Gonzales has a wife and five kids. He works two jobs and isn't sure how he got it. He thought he could tough it out.
RICHARD GONZALES, RESISTED GOING TO THE HOSPITAL: I kind of like messed up. Those symptoms that I got when I got it, I should have went to the ER room or the hospital right away but I didn't. I laid in bed thinking it was going to go away.
MARQUEZ: For how long?
GONZALES: For about a week.
MARQUEZ: Luis Martinez' father, uncle and cousin died of COVID-19. The last thing he wanted to do was go to a hospital.
LUIS MARTINEZ, LOST THREE FAMILY MEMBERS: I won't do it because you know how it is. Whenever they put you in a hospital, sometimes you never make it.
MARQUEZ: To listen to Juana Corona trying to breathe is to understand everything one needs to know about COVID-19. She's pretty certain she got it from her daughter at a birthday party. Several other family members got it. Her 26-year-old niece died.
She says she's scared. Like everyone we spoke to. Those who could speak, they all hope for one thing, to be home for Christmas.
Margaret Evans says ten members of her family got COVID-19, she thinks at a birthday party.
How tough is it to be away from family like this?
MARGARET EVANS-RANGE, 10 FAMILY MEMBERS GOT CORONAVIRUS: It's hard. It's hard. It's very, very, very, very hard.
MARQUEZ: She has nine grandchildren she'd really like to see.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BOLDUAN: Miguel is joining me now.
Miguel, my goodness. You've gone into so many hospitals in so many places for so many months. Does this feel different? Does this feel worse?
MARQUEZ: Yes and no. Look, they're gotten better at treating the illness. They have gotten better at physically arranging their hospitals and ramping up and adding more beds. But the doctors, the nurses, the people who clean up the place, they have worked themselves to the bone. They are overstressed, they are overtired.
To be completely honest, they are pissed off that the numbers are as high as they are right now and the worst is yet to come. Kate.
BOLDUAN: They have a reason to be. Thank you, Miguel.
Breaking news, we have more breaking news coming in tonight, though. President Trump, he appears to be threatening just now to veto the $900 billion coronavirus relief bill that Congress just passed overnight.
Jeremy Diamond is OUTFRONT now joining me from the White House.
Jeremy, this took months for them to negotiate because they couldn't do their job, and now the president is threatening this?
[19:45:00]
Why?
JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Months of negotiations without the president's direct involvement, Kate, which is something to really highlight here. The president is now deciding to complain about this bill after both houses of Congress have already passed it by overwhelming veto-proof majorities, this $900 billion coronavirus relief bill as well as this omnibus spending bill which have been merged together here.
And the president seems to be conflating the two as he complains about a series of the provisions that are not COVID-related in this. The president calling this legislation a, quote, disgrace, and he's telling Congress, send me a suitable bill or else the next administration will have to deliver a COVID relief package. And then he says, maybe that administration will be me and we will get it done. Kate, this is absolutely remarkable what the president is doing here,
ion signaling that he will not sign this legislation, $900 billion of relief for millions of Americans amid the worst point in this coronavirus pandemic. But again, veto-proof majorities on both of these, so perhaps Congress will be able to override that veto if indeed the president follows through with one.
BOLDUAN: What a nightmare. Jeremy, hold tight. Thank you, man.
OUTFRONT next, the massive hack into government agencies, Joe Biden blames Trump and suggest that he will retaliate. But what will Biden do to Russia?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[19:53:16]
BOLDUAN: New tonight, an assault of America. That is how President- elect Joe Biden is describing the massive cyberattack against the U.S. government, an attack with all signs pointing to Russia.
Biden is slamming President Trump for his lack of response and promising there will be consequences.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOE BIDEN (D), PRESIDENT-ELECT OF THE UNITED STATES: This is all happen on Donald Trump's watch when he wasn't watching. He's still has responsibility as president to defend American's interests for the next four weeks. Butt rest assured that even if he does not take it seriously, I will.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BOLDUAN: Joining me right now, former CIA chief of Russia operation, Steve Hall and staff writer for "The New Yorker", Susan Glasser.
Susan, those are strong words from the president-elect today, all the more striking because the current president has said nothing about this other than to downplay the attack.
SUSAN GLASSER, CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: Well, that's exactly right. I mean, Erin, it is almost like he's been absent or AWOL from his job as president, except that he emerged on Twitter briefly to cast out that it even was Russia, undercutting even the secretary of state, Mike Pompeo, who acknowledged that all signs pointed to Russia.
What is so striking, Erin, is that this attack may not even be over. We don't even understand the extent of the damage yet. Biden made clear in his remarks today, the defense department is refusing even to -- brief the Biden administration on what's happening.
But the extent of the damage, it appears to have got into so many key government agencies. I saw one analyst call it a nightmare scenario after nightmare scenario in terms of our cyber planning.
The other day, Biden's incoming advisor suggested that whatever the retaliation would be, it would be more than just sanctions.
[19:55:03]
I just -- I think this is an issue that is really going to be defining the new administrations and dealing with Russia.
BOLDUAN: Steve, President-elect Biden, he did stop short of calling this an act of war when he was asked about it today. And he also did not want to lay down a marker if you will on how he's going to respond when he takes over.
Let me play for everyone how that played out.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLPI)
REPORTER: Why not lay out those kind of options publicly, though? Isn't the part of the issue here is deterrence and the fact that Russia felt some impunity, if it is indeed Russia, to do what they've done?
BIDEN: We have not done that any other areas we have faced international crises. We don't sit here and say that we are going to strike you with a nuclear weapon. We don't sit and we're going to say it and so on. Let us determine what the extent of the damage is. I promise you, there will be a response.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BOLDUAN: Steve, what do you think of that?
STEVE HALL, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: You know, there's as been a lot of questions recently as of now this is an act of war, and therefore, the United States have to act, it's been attacked in the military type of capacity? The answer is, this is a hybrid war attack.
This is where the Russians have been doing so much, over the past couple of years. They know they cannot go against the United States in a conventional war fashion, so they will do it doing using cyberattacks.
I think president elect was quite right, in projecting or giving the Russians a head start on defenses as to how we're going to respond, but really has to be a multi-layered response. There's got to be diplomacy. There's got to be quite conversations amongst the intelligence on both sides, American side, because the Russian intelligence organizations are the ones who have been authoring these cyberattacks.
So, it's got to be a hard push back on a bunch of different levels. It sounds like that's what the president-elect and his administration are planning on doing.
BOLDUAN: That's interesting.
Susan, you mentioned this a bit, but Biden and his team had to wait weeks for a formal transition to begin. And more recently, there was a spat with the defense department over a holiday pause with briefings, and today, Biden says they also are not getting fully briefed. They're not getting briefed on this cyber attack.
Does all of this put Biden at a disadvantage when it comes to responding to this?
GLASSER: There is no question. I mean, you know, this is exactly what people have studied transitions from worried about for years, is the national security implications of having one administration leaving, a new one coming in, not fully up to speed. In the past, they were worried about things like, you know, getting officials confirmed, we are getting them security clearances.
We're in a whole different level in terms of disruptive transition, Erin. You know, this is what it means when you have an administration, the Trump administration determined to salt the earth is how someone put it. I mean, this is such a risk to U.S. interests.
It is not abstract. It's not a matter and not getting a briefing book. This is an ongoing national security crisis because we still don't know the extent of the damage. This was a hack that occurred on Donald Trump's watch that apparently started back in March. We've only now found out about it.
So it is almost the definition of the kind of scenario that planners were worried about and, you know, we're not even done yet. The Trump administration, remember, Donald Trump actually fired secretary of defense in the aftermath of his election defeat. He's continued to appoint acting officials there and senior capacity who seems determined not to cooperate with the incoming administration. It is something quite alarming really.
BOLDUAN: And, Steve, the president-elect today said something that I thought was striking, that he sees no sign that is the attack has stopped. Let me play this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BIDEN: First of all, it is a great risk and it continues. I see no evidence that it is under control. I see none, heard of none.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BOLDUAN: You compare that to president Trump who over the weekend said that he been fully briefed and everything was well or completely under control.
Do you think this attack is under control yet?
HALL: Well, Kate, it's hard to tell because the Russians are really, really good at this stuff and they've clearly gotten in. But the one thing that I take a great deal of solace is my confidence in the National Security Agency. NSA is extremely good of rooting this stuff out, finding it and neutralizing it.
I don't have any doubt they'll actually end up doing that. But it's not going to be done overnight. It's not necessarily going to be done quickly because the Russians are good. They're really good. The difference is that I think the NSA is a little better at finding it.
And, of course, we have our own offense of capabilities as well. And that's something the Russians need to remember before they continue attacking like this.
BOLDUAN: Final thought, Susan?
GLASSER: You know, I think the point of this being ongoing and remember we still have almost 30 days left in the Trump administration, Russia, Russia, Russia, was Trump's obsession, and it appears that it is at the end with these pardons denying interference, it's a theme.
BOLDUAN: It is, it is. It is strange how it's ending, and how it began as well.
Thank you both. I appreciate it.
And thank you all so much for joining us this evening.
"AC360" starts now.
