Return to Transcripts main page

Erin Burnett Outfront

NYT Obtains Investigative Document That Details Gaetz Payments; Bracing For Nuke War?; Susan Smith's Plea. Aired 7-8p ET

Aired November 20, 2024 - 19:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[19:00:34]

ERIN BURNETT, CNN HOST: OUTFRONT next:

Republicans refusing to release the House ethics report on Matt Gaetz. This as "The New York Times" reports new details from the Gaetz investigation. A growing number of Senate Republicans are asking for more answers tonight. One of them is my guest this evening.

Plus, breaking news, bracing for a nuclear war. Vladimir Putin is now building nuclear resistant bomb shelters. And we are learning just how many long range missiles Ukraine is now launching deep into Russia. We'll go live to Kyiv.

And the story that captured the nation 30 years ago, Susan Smith, who drove her two young sons into a lake killing them today, sobbing in court, pleading for parole.

Let's go OUTFRONT.

And good evening. I'm Erin Burnett.

OUTFRONT tonight, the breaking news. "The New York Times" obtaining a new document from federal investigators. This document details the trail of payments from Matt Gaetz, Trump's choice for attorney general, to numerous women, including some who testified that Gaetz was paying them for sex.

It is a damning document. I waved it there. Let me just show you on your screens, you can see that Gaetz is faced at the top left, barely eligible because of the high number of women and payments, and you can see him paying on many individuals there and also a payment to Joel Greenberg, the other man on the screen who is currently serving time in prison for all of this.

It shows tens of thousands of dollars in Venmo payments between Gaetz, friends, associates and women, all of this related to sex parties. It includes the two women who testified that they were paid to have sex with the former congressman.

Their attorney told me about these payments, and he revealed here OUTFRONT for the first time just how much those two women alone were paid by Gaetz.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) BURNETT: These interactions continued for a couple of years and when you look back at it and he was paying them for these sexual encounters, how much did he pay them?

JOEL LEPPARD, LAWYER FOR WOMEN WHO TESTIFIED AGAINST GAETZ ABOUT SEX ALLEGATIONS: When my clients provided testimony to the House, they put up on the screen a list of the Venmo and PayPal transactions directly from Representative Gaetz to my clients. For one of the clients, it was a little over 6,000. For another client, it was a little over 4000.

BURNETT: S a little over $10,000 to your clients from him directly.

LEPPARD: That's correct.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BURNETT: That's just to those two women. As you can see obviously, there are many more.

Yet, Republicans do not want this or other details related to the Gaetz probe to ever see the light of day. Some Republicans I just want to be clear here, many of them do. But I'm specifically referring to the Republicans on the House Ethics Committee tonight handing President-elect Trump and his pick for attorney general, Matt Gaetz, a victory.

And I will say, at least for now they voted for now to block the release of what is said to be this damaging report because this -- this is from it, which says, among other things, Gaetz was -- that the report was looking into sexual misconduct, including sex with a minor, as well as illicit drug use and other things.

Now, this is a blow to a number of Republican senators they wanted the report before they actually vote on Gaetz's nomination.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. MIKE ROUNDSD (R-SD): We should be able to get a hold of it, and we should have access to it one way or another based on the way that we do all of these nominations.

SEN. JOHN CORNYN (R-TX): I think there should not be any limitation on the Senate Judiciary Committee's investigation, including whatever the House Ethics Committee has generated.

MANU RAJU, CNN CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: But you want to see it?

SEN. KEVIN CRAMER (R-ND): Oh, I do, but more importantly, I want the Judiciary Committee to be able to see it prior to the hearings.

SEN. LISA MURKOWSKI (R-AK): I think it would be helpful. Everybody's talking about it. It apparently was just about done.

(END VIDEO CLIP) BURNETT: Now, the House Ethics Committee is scheduled to meet again next month. Next month. Of course, being December. So this would still be before the confirmation and there could be another vote. Then so well see.

There are though, Democrats on that committee who do not want to wait. Congressman Sean Casten is trying to force the entire House to vote on the reports release.

Now, in the report the attorney that you just heard from a moment ago says his client testified that she saw Gaetz having sex with a minor.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LEPPARD: She was invited to a party in July of 2017. She testified to the house that as she was walking out to the pool area she turned to her right and she witnessed her client -- I'm sorry, her friend having sex with Representative Gaetz and her friend at that time was 17.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BURNETT: Now, Leppard, who just saw there, tells me that's just the tip of the iceberg, that his clients are just two out of over a dozen witnesses who testified, which is why so many Democrats and Republicans say it is vital that this report be released.

[19:05:14]

Manu is OUTFRONT live on Capitol Hill.

Manu, is there any chance this report actually comes to a floor vote?

RAJU: Well, this will come to a floor vote here, Erin, because Democrats are using a procedural move to force this vote. In fact, within two legislative days, that's when we would actually have to come to the floor.

The House Republicans could essentially vote to kill this altogether. They can refer it to the committee or they can vote on the merits. But it could also be punted until after the Thanksgiving holiday. But undoubtedly, this vote will happen.

The question will be whether Democrats will -- can get a majority of the United States House to vote to compel the release of this report. That would mean 218 votes. That means three Republicans would have to defect, assuming all members are present and voting. And I caught up with one Republican, Derrick Van Orden, someone who has a fraught relationship with Gaetz over the years. And I asked him if he would support the release of this report and he indicated he would vote to release it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RAJU: There might be a vote in the house to release that report. Would you vote to release that report? REP. DERRICK VAN ORDEN (R-WI): I think it's very important that

everybody has, as much knowledge as possible so that they can make an informed decision.

RAJU: It sounds like yes.

VAN ORDEN: That's a yes. So if -- if what the -- if the rumors are true about Mr. Gaetz's conduct, then there should be referrals to other agencies. And if they're not true, then there's a whole lot of people that owe him an apology.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

RAJU: And Derrick Van Orden is not only Republican who wants to see the report. On the Senate side, there are lots of Republicans, particularly some who are considering, who sit on the Senate Judiciary Committee, which will consider the nomination of Matt Gaetz, who want to see some of these reports.

So the details in that House Ethics Committee report, and there are others on the House side who have had a fraught relationship with Gaetz over the years and believe that he should not be the attorney general of the United States, which means that there's a very -- there's a likelihood here, Erin, that either there will be a vote to actually compel his release or Republicans will somehow get the chance to access this report as they consider them on the Senate side through the confirmation process there.

But as you can hear from that one congressman there, Erin, not everybody on the same page on this issue showing how controversial this Gaetz pick is. Also, the steep climb he faces ahead of Senate confirmation.

BURNETT: All right. Manu, thank you very much, on Capitol Hill tonight.

And I do want to go now to the Republican Senator Markwayne Mullin of Oklahoma.

And, Senator, I really appreciate your time. And thank you for coming on with me.

I want to just start with the breaking news about this diagram that was obtained by "The New York Times". I'm holding it up here. It's honestly, it's hard to see because there's so many names on it, but it's payments. Matt Gaetz's picture is on it. Joel Greenberg, who's serving time, is on it with these payments.

This was prepared by federal investigators. It's basically just a web of thousands of dollars of Venmo payments between Gaetz and a group of associates, friends, women he allegedly had drug-fueled sex parties with over a three-year time span.

You know, look, I'm not happy to be talking with you about drug-fueled sex parties, but here we are.

I mean, Senator, if true, this is obviously a lot of payments to multiple women.

SEN. MARKWAYNE MULLIN (R-OK): Well, it definitely looks that way and this is why I think when the Senate is going through this confirmation process, that we have to have oversight. And I think a lot of this information needs to be -- needs to be brought forth, to allow Matt to talk about it. If that's what he chooses to do. But this is -- this is Article Two, Section Two, where we advise and consent the president of the United States on his nominations.

And so I think everybody in the Senate, we take oversight very important, which is why I think its very important that this information makes its way over to the Senate, even if it makes its way in a private setting to where you have to go to the SCIF to receive it. I'm okay with that. But I think every senator should have the right to look at it before we cast our votes.

BURNETT: Right, to look at the report as opposed to some sort of a process where you have to take ages to recreate it yourself. I know some they're made out there.

But interesting that you think basically if I'm -- if I'm getting this right, Senator, you're saying you want to see it, you need to see it. You're okay with it being public, but you're also okay with it being in a classified room where senators such as yourself would be the only ones who would be able to see it as you make a decision on Gaetz.

MULLIN: Yeah, and I think it's up to the house on how we negotiate getting the report if the house doesn't want to make it public, I'm perfectly okay with that. But I do think its important for our oversight ability as were choosing these or as we're confirming these nominations -- these nominees that that we have access to it.

BURNETT: So "The Times", "The New York Times", with the diagram, right?

[19:10:00]

It does back up claims by Joel Leppard. He is, Senator, the lawyer for two of the women who testified. They were paid multiple times by Matt Gaetz to have sex with him over a several-year period. And one of whom, or both of them I guess, witnessed him having sex with a then 17-year-old.

I've talked to him a couple of times, Senator, last night he was talking specifically about the payments to those two particular young women. Here's what he said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LEPPARD: When my clients provided testimony to the house, they -- they put up on the screen a list of the Venmo and PayPal transactions directly from Representative Gaetz to my clients. For one of the clients, it was a little over 6,000. For another client, it was a little over 4,000.

BURNETT: So a little over $10,000 to your clients from him directly? LEPPARD: That's correct.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BURNETT: Now he then continued, Senator, to say he thinks his two clients were just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to the House Ethics Committee report. And obviously now were seeing that diagram from "The New York Times".

I guess -- are -- to ask you the question this way, Senator, if -- if this is what's out there, are these things disqualifying for someone who would be the attorney general of the U.S., the highest law enforcement officer in the country?

MULLIN: I think it would be -- I think it would be very, very damning, and I hate to play the what if game because I want to see it first, but I don't think there's any way he could get confirmed if -- if this is -- if this is accurate. And I will tell you -- I don't, I will say, Matt, when he's been confronted about this, has denied it over and over and over again.

And I know that this probably came up when President Trump was visiting with him, and President Trump made the decision to put him forth believing what Matt -- what Matt Gaetz said. If it turns out that Matt Gaetz was -- Matt Gaetz was lying, you're going to see a lot of opinions change on this.

But he has the right to go to a hearing. He has a right to explain it. And maybe he's got a good explanation for it. I don't know. I know this -- I trust President Trump and the decisions he made with the information he had that I'm going to keep an open mind moving through, maybe moving forward with the process.

But it is extremely concerning. It was already a very -- it was already a hard push to get Matt confirmed to begin with. This is -- this is -- this -- this will make things very difficult if it comes out that it's actually true.

BURNETT: Right. Now, I guess just a question for you, Senator, because we live in this weird world now where, you know, you go through this and this whole investigation, it's a bipartisan committee, and all of that, and then they're still going to be people who say, well, he said it isn't true. So maybe it's not true.

Is there a world where just at some point when something like this comes out, people will say, well, these are facts?

MULLIN: Well, everybody's going to have an opinion, but I believe in trust but verify and -- and it's -- and that's part of the oversight. That's part of the oversight job. When we start playing what's peoples going to say or what the social media is going to play out, I -- you know, it's very hard to, to, to sway are looking at, at the head of a DOJ, this stuff is very important for us to know because if laws were broke leading up to the process of prior to him being confirmed, that -- it's -- I don't know how he can be confirmed moving forward. That is very concerning especially when you start looking in was there

was there actually sex -- sexual activity with an underage female. That is -- that obviously in the state of California, 18 is the legal age of consent. That is extremely damaging at that point.

And I don't know how he could possibly get confirmed at that point.

BURNETT: Right. And obviously at the time he was, I believe, 35 years old, that then becomes a matter of people's judgment of what they think they're willing to accept.

I mean, look, Senator, you know, when it comes to, you know, values and morals and law enforcement, it's not -- you have not made it secret where you stand. You've spoken about Gaetz behavior. You know, when you told Manu he was showing videos on the house floor of girls that he had slept with, and it was clear that you were disgusted by that.

MULLIN: Right.

BURNETT: Given that alone, though, is that disqualifying someone who behaves like that and does that and shows that to people in and of itself, to become attorney general of the United States, or is that not disqualifying necessarily?

MULLIN: Well, that's -- that's not laws broke. And so, there's no qualification on that one. I mean, there's no question, Erin, that Matt and I have had differences of opinions.

BURNETT: Right.

MULLIN: There's no question for it as far as it being disqualifying. He wasn't breaking a law. It just showed a character flaw.

When you're looking at someone to confirm for this position, that should be considered too. But I wouldn't say it necessarily disqualifies him. What I have said over and over again, while Matt and I have had differences, the president and I have a very good relationship, and I trust his ability to pick the right people for his cabinet and we'll give everybody the same opportunity to have a fair confirmation period.

[19:15:04]

And so, we're going to move through this process. And if it proves that he is disqualified to hold the position and not able to be confirmed, then well cast that vote. If he's able to move forward and explain these situations and there was no laws broke, then a different decision has to be made on the on the moral findings of it. I think this is going to be as I said, a difficult process. But this is why it's important for the Senate to have all the information that that -- that is out there on Matt Gaetz.

BURNETT: Do you plan to meet with him when he is --

MULLIN: Absolutely, yeah.

BURNETT: And just as one final question, Senator, is tough questions, but you keep emphasizing breaking the law and I understand that. But again, when we're talking about the head of the Department of Justice and justice being something that in many ways is not just about laws, but it is about morality and character. Do you think that there are any of these things would be character flaws that would be disqualifying in and of themselves for the position of attorney general?

MULLIN: There could be for sure. I think there's a lot of character flaws that could be used that way. I mean, there was we raised as Republicans, raised a lot of concerns about Rachel, the assistant secretary of HHS, with some issues that we had for personal behavior. Obviously, we raised some issues with Sam, who worked for -- who was appointed by President Biden for the Department of Energy and some obviously moral concerns that we had there, too.

So, yes there is a breaking point, no question, but where that tolerance is will be based on everybody's individual judgment.

BURNETT: All right. Well, Senator, I really appreciate your time. Thank you for talking about this on the heels of this breaking news, a diagram from the times. And thanks so much, I appreciate it. I look forward to talking to you again.

MULLIN: Erin, thank you for having me on.

BURNETT: All right.

And next, banned. The nation's first transgender house member, blocked by Republicans from using the women's bathroom. Tonight, Congresswoman-elect Sarah McBride is responding.

Plus, more breaking news. We now know that Ukraine used eight long range U.S. missiles to successfully hit an ammunition depot deep inside Russia. So, what's next?

And Susan Smith, who drowned her two young children 30 years ago today, pleading for her release.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SUSAN SMITH, SUSPECT: I'm sorry, I don't know. I know that's not enough.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[19:21:48]

BURNETT: Tonight, Congress's transgender House member banned from using the women's bathrooms and locker rooms at the Capitol. Speaker Johnson, backing an effort by Republican Congresswoman Nancy Mace restricting the use of those facilities to people only if they correspond with their biological sex, and all of this really is about one person. That's all it's about is one person, the Democratic Congresswoman-elect Sarah McBride. She is the first openly transgender member of the House.

McBride saying she'll follow the rules even if she disagrees with them and she also posts on social media, quote, I'm not here to fight about bathrooms. I'm here to fight for Delawareans and to bring down costs facing families, focusing on her job.

All right. So let me -- you know, it's just sort of amaze me in this moment.

Margaret, Nancy Mace, the congresswoman, is leading this fight saying that this is about protecting women. This is a very big shift for her, though. Back in 2021, she said, I strongly support LGBTQ rights and equality. No one should be discriminated against. I have friends and family that identify as LGBTQ, having been around gay, lesbian and transgender people has informed my opinion over my lifetime.

That's what she said then. Now she is sponsoring, you know this, this rule to ban one person from using the bathroom.

MARGARET HOOVER, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yeah, I think what were observing with Nancy Mace and Nancy Mace is somebody that I have had on my program that I have known a little bit socially and who I really have respected as a lawmaker. I think she's misguided here. I think it's clear, I think to her and to many Republicans that when it comes to issues around transgender people, especially children in sports they're winning that as a political issue. And so they're doubling down with broad brush strokes against the entire trans community.

And I just want to point out, at every point in civil rights battles in this country, especially, just look at the 20th century. Bathrooms have been a front line in the culture wars. When you think about sort of desegregation of the South, the integration of the south, it was about having part of this was having colored bathrooms and white bathrooms. And when you look at the integration of the military and frankly, "don't ask, don't tell" was about gay soldiers in the showers and women coming into office buildings when women join the workforce, there were no bathrooms for women to go in these office buildings, of these law firms, white shoe law firms and the stock exchange.

BURNETT: Yeah.

HOOVER: Bathrooms have always been at the forefront of civil rights battles. And it is the most basic human function. Everybody has to use the restroom.

And so, this idea that you can pervert this and to make this most basic thing that that everybody does into something that is contorted and perverted is wrong, but is tied to a prejudice and a history that that we are very familiar with. And if you see it that way, you can begin to see people as people and figure out how to how to transcend this sort of erroneous problem.

BURNETT: Yeah. I mean, which is fascinating. And that point about bathrooms at the forefront of civil rights. I mean, what an incredible point. I mean, Shermichael, look, this has now gotten to the point where "Punchbowl" is reporting that Marjorie Taylor Greene the congresswoman, told her Republican colleagues that she would get in a physical fight if she went into the bathroom and there was a transgender woman in a capitol bathroom. Physical fight.

[19:25:00]

You know, so is this really what they're going to be talking about and spending time on arguing over where one person goes to the bathroom?

SHERMICHAEL SINGLETON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, look, Erin, I think those women have a right to be comfortable.

I mean, I respect and admire and adore Margaret. I do not, however think its the same thing to equate not allowing someone who happens to be Black like I am to use a restroom with a white person, compared to someone who's trans. I just think those two things are very, very different in my personal opinion.

With that said, I spent a lot of time looking at every single data point that I could find on this topic. The overwhelming vast majority of the American people say that they believe you should use the restroom of your biological sex. If you were born a male, you should use the restroom with men, and vice versa for women.

And so I think Republicans are in sync with where most of the American people are on this issue and when we saw that play out very well in this recent election.

BURNETT: Well, most people do not know transgender people that they're aware of. I mean, and I'm not saying you're necessarily wrong, Shermichael, in saying what people believe but I guess, Margaret, what I'm getting at here is the person were talking about here, the congresswoman from Delaware is the first openly transgender person to ever serve in Congress.

HOOVER: Yeah.

SINGLETON: So she is going to be the first transgender person that many congresspeople ever meet that in and of itself, could be hugely significant.

HOOVER: Absolutely. I mean, I think there's an opportunity for her to conduct some, you know some diplomacy, frankly, on behalf of the issue, on behalf of the community, with people who really haven't had a chance to interact with a trans woman before, and good for her for being willing to do it.

By the way, she said, that's not what I'm here for like, I'm not here to argue about bathrooms, so just make the rules. I'll follow the rules.

But I do think there will be opportunities for policies where people can maybe have their minds broadened. I was -- I was heartened that Lisa McClain, who is going to be the conference chair on the Republican side, said, were not going to make this argument and this Congress about --

BURNETT: She said she agrees with Nancy Mace, but --

(CROSSTALK)

HOOVER: Keep it about policy, right? And I also sort of appreciated that Speaker Johnson indicated that, like, you know, there's got to be a graceful way for us to navigate these issues. And so that adds a degree of humanity to the issue.

BURNETT: Yeah.

Shermichael, final word.

SINGLETON: Well, look, I agree with Margaret there. And I agree with the speaker of the House, Mike Johnson.

I mean look, these are challenging and complicated issues. People have strong -- and views on this. Strong views about their children and what they believe is their right to protect their children. And I think there are a lot of women, particularly those who may be conservative, who say that they have a right to feel comfortable and safe when they're in restrooms. And I think we should listen to those people as well.

BURNETT: All right. Thank you both very much. I appreciate it.

And next, we do have some breaking news from Ukraine. Were learning about eight long range missiles that were used successfully to hit an ammunition depot that was deep inside Russia, and that tonight, Vladimir Putin is starting to specifically manufacture nuclear resistant bomb shelters. So what does that signal about his next steps?

Plus, China will Musk's cozy relationship with Beijing be what causes the self-described first buddy to break up with Trump?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[19:32:03]

BURNETT: Breaking news. We are now learning that Ukraine has successfully hit an ammunition depot deep inside Russia using eight long range U.S. missiles. That is what two defense U.S. officials are telling our Oren Liebermann tonight.

Russia claims the Ukrainian attack did not cause damage. The U.S. says that is false, but Ukraine also reportedly used British made Storm Shadow missiles for the first time today inside Russia, as well.

(VIDEO CLIP PLAYS)

BURENTT: You heard them right there in that video. You see the background, but you can hear the explosions. The weapons expert telling CNN those are exactly the types of sounds and blasts you would expect to hear from those Storm Shadow missiles. It comes as Russia is now producing nuclear resistant, mobile bomb

shelters. The shelters can protect against shockwaves and radiation from a nuclear blast, among other threats. While on Russian state TV, one popular host suggesting that the world is now on the verge of another world war.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RUSSIAN TV HOST: As President Putin has repeatedly stressed, missile strikes deep inside Russian territory will change the nature of the conflict, its very essence, and be a radical escalation. After all, the USA, England and France will be directly entering a war with Russia, with all the ensuing consequences for their own territories.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BURNETT: This comes as a number of American allies are now accusing Russia of sabotaging crucial fiber optic Internet cables in the Baltic Sea. The cables connecting Sweden to Lithuania and Germany to Finland were cut on Sunday and Monday, and we are now learning that around the time that this happened that a Chinese ship sailing from Russia was in that area.

Nick Paton Walsh is OUTFRONT tonight in Kyiv.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

NICK PATON WALSH, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Ukrainian special forces fighting up close and taking prisoners, rare footage of them still inside Russia's Kursk region, where British Storm Shadow missiles were claimed to have hit Wednesday. These fragments found by locals.

Just hours earlier, American supplied ATACMS missiles also plowed into Russia marking a stark new escalation in the war.

Yet it was also in Kyiv that fear grew. The U.S. embassy closing here for the first time since the invasion citing a threat of air attack.

It's a reflection of the heightened tension here, felt here in the capital Kyiv. It's been under regular bombardment for over two months, but other European allied embassies are also limiting their function today, perhaps a sense across NATO here that we're entering a new chapter of this conflict.

As Kyiv braced for another sleepless night of sirens, the bereaved planted flags into this sea of loss in central Kyiv.

[19:35:05]

Anya's father died of his injuries three weeks ago after five months in a coma. She is raw from both the talk of peace and fear of sirens.

ANYA IVANINA, LOST FATHER IN THE WAR: I will be honest. We went down to the basement during every air raid siren today. It was really scary indeed. I want peace very much. I don't want our country to be hurt. I want it to be as it was, but without the Russians, without all of this.

WALSH: But it's never over in Kyiv. The air raids intensifying in the past two months, and the weekend seen here, the worst for a while.

So the heightened anxiety behind several NATO embassies reducing operations this day sparked Ukrainian officials to plead. They hold their nerve and deride this piece of Russian misinformation online, a detailed and fake warning of wide-scale attacks.

This situation should be interpreted, he says, as Russia's attempt to use any elements of psychological influence. They have one instrument, which is to scare. This has always been a classic element of Russian politics, so I'd like our partners to be more careful as to the information coming from Russia.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WALSH (on camera): What we saw today with that very explicit specific U.S. embassy closure and warning is a reflection, I think, of the fear of escalation around Ukraine. The misinformation, the Russians are blamed for by Ukrainian officials. Well, it was a fake, pretty bad fake, frankly.

Is that the only thing that caused this U.S. embassy warning? I doubt it personally. And I think it feeds into a fear here, as I say, of a new chapter, U.S.-made, UK-made missiles being fired by Ukraine into Russia. That's something that Vladimir Putin is probably going to want to respond to. And certainly Kyiv is on edge because of that -- Erin.

BURNETT: All right. Nick, thank you very much.

And I want to go OUTFRONT now to Evelyn Farkas, the former deputy assistant secretary of defense for Russia and Ukraine, along with the retired Lieutenant General Ben Hodges, former commanding general of the U.S. Army in Europe.

So, Evelyn, these missiles that we -- we heard the Storm Shadows right in that audio clip, but also now the U.S. ATACMS being used deep inside Russia on that ammo depot as we understand in the most recent use, how does this tangibly change things? Does it tangibly accomplish anything right now for Ukraine?

EVELYN FARKAS, FORMER DEPUTY ASSISTANT SECRETARY OF DEFENSE FOR RUSSIA: Well, I think, Erin, it puts pressure on the Russian government because the more of these ammunition depots that the Ukrainians can take out, that obviously means that they have less munitions, which means their time is shorter.

The other thing is that it disrupts their logistics operations, and that also provides, in the short term, an advantage to the Ukrainians.

So it may not be a deal changer just to take out 1 or 2 ammunition depots, but it certainly disruptive on the battlefield right now in the short term.

BURNETT: General Hodges, you know, Russia state TV talking about world war three. Putin making comments about nuclear weapons. And now they're sort of mass producing these mobile nuclear resistant bomb shelters, right, that we have video of.

What do you see here? What do you think such a thing is about?

LT. GENERAL BEN HODGES (RET.), FORMER COMMANDING GENERAL, U.S. ARMY EUROPE: Well, I think this is classic Kremlin scare mongering. I mean, I have to give them credit for the new thing of the new bunkers that they'll be selling.

The Russians know that Washington and Berlin and London and other capitals react to this, that were vulnerable to this scare mongering. But if you think about it, why would Russia use a nuclear weapon? I mean, there is no benefit for Russia to use a nuclear weapon. None.

Their benefit comes from the way we deter ourselves out of fear that they might use a nuclear weapon. China and India have both told Russia, do not use a nuclear weapon. The United States has said you will suffer catastrophic consequences if you use a nuclear weapon.

So there's no benefit on the ground or strategically for Russia. So, of course, you take it serious because they have thousands. They don't care how many people they kill including their own. But there are only downsides for Russia if they actually do it.

BURNETT: Evelyn it comes as at least some sort of a pressure campaign appears to be on Europe to turn on this war, if not just simply a more broader escalation or Putin making it clear, you know, that he wants to extend Russian dominance.

I mentioned earlier those two undersea cables that were mysteriously cut, the German defense minister says that nobody believes they were accidentally severed. And then you had that Chinese ship with apparently a Russian captain which was, you know, seen in the area around the time that this occurred. What do you think happened?

FARKAS: Well, it seems likely, Erin, that the Chinese ship did this at the behest of the Russian government.

[19:40:01]

Whether the Chinese government was involved or not, I can't say. But this is a continuation -- I just came back from Ukraine just before our elections in the fall. And in the summer, Russia was conducting sabotage operations all over Europe. The German intelligence agency heads were warning that the Russians were conducting these operations that Russia was getting ready for some sort of operation, potentially against NATO allies.

So they were raising the sirens. We weren't paying that much attention to it. So the sabotage operations are part of this overall campaign to intimidate.

BURNETT: General Hodges?

HODGES: Yes? BURNETT: About the cables. What do you think that that was Putin?

HODGES: I'm sorry. Yeah. Of course, the Russians are at war with us, even if we don't think of ourselves as being at war with them in the traditional sense. You know, we used to use this phrase hybrid war, which is really unhelpful and unuseful. The Russians are at war with us, whether its disinformation, missiles flying through Polish airspace, Latvian airspace, Romanian airspace, sabotage.

I'm glad my friend Evelyn used the word sabotage. That's what's going on all over Europe. They're pushing us to find out where our limits are.

And so until we finally change our -- our mindset and acknowledge that the Russians are at war, not armed attack. So not Article Five stuff, but they are at war until we inflict some kind of pain on them, their behavior is never going to change.

And so we have to get serious about economic sanctions and helping Ukraine defeat Russia.

BURNETT: And we'll see what happens here, of course, at least what the incoming president has indicated, right, is a negotiated settlement, a possible end to all those sanctions and a complete about face on all of this, but let's see.

All right. Thank you both very much. I appreciate it.

And next, Elon Musk is actually a big fan of China doing this dance at his Tesla factory there. Big Tesla factory, huge relationship. Will that cozy relationship cause a split with Trump who, of course, is promising massive tariffs on China?

Plus, Susan Smith, who drowned her two young children in a case that drew worldwide attention back in court today, pleading for her release.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SMITH: What I knew was horrible.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[19:46:33]

BURNETT: Tonight, Trump praising his, quote/unquote, first buddy Elon Musk, as Musk calls himself, posting several photos of them together at the SpaceX rocket launch in Texas with the, quote, congratulations, Elon. This is Musk writes in a new op-ed for "The Wall Street Journal" that his Department of Government Efficiency could push to end remote work for the 1.3 million federal employees approved to work from home, saying, quote, requiring federal employees to come to the office five days a week would result in a wave of voluntary terminations that we welcome. But will the Trump-Musk incredibly close, overwhelmingly close

relationship face its real test when it comes to how the two men view China, an issue where they could not be farther apart?

Will Ripley is OUTFRONT.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

WILL RIPLEY, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Elon musk was making moves in China years before stepping into U.S. politics. China is Tesla's second biggest market.

ELON MUSK, TECH BILLIONAIRE: We are looking for the very best talent in China.

RIPLEY: Tesla's Shanghai gigafactory churns out nearly a million cars a year. The company's most productive plant. Musk built strong ties with Chinese leaders, making Tesla the first foreign automaker with full factory ownership in China.

Musk even got the government to officially use Tesla vehicles.

MUSK: We intend to make continue making a significant investment and increasing the investment in China.

RIPLEY: And he's not done yet. A $200 million mega battery factory is coming soon to Shanghai.

MUSK: Fight fight, fight. Vote, vote, vote. Thank you.

RIPLEY: But in the Trump 2.0 era, Musk may find himself navigating tricky terrain. President-elect Donald Trump is promising a 60 percent tariff or more on Chinese imports, a move that could create friction for Tesla's China operations.

LEV NACHMAN, POLITICAL ANALYST: This is the classic conflict of interest with having someone like Elon Musk in politics. He's not a politician.

RIPLEY: And he's definitely not a China hawk. That could put him at odds with Trump's incoming cabinet, widely seen as the toughest on Beijing in U.S. history.

SEN. MARCO RUBIO (R-FL): They allow the Chinese communist party to gain access to all of the private data.

RIPLEY: Take Secretary of State nominee Marco Rubio, a staunch critic of China, sanctioned twice by Beijing.

Rubio has championed human rights in Hong Kong and democracy in Taiwan, positions that clash with Musk, criticized for these comments last year, seen as siding with authoritarian Beijing over the self- governing island.

MUSK: The policy has been to sort of reunite Taiwan with China. From this standpoint, you know, maybe it is analogous to like Hawaii. RIPLEY: Two power players, two very different views on China, both

potentially shaping policy in the second, Trump administration.

NACHMAN: The potential for fallout is very real.

RIPLEY: Some say musk may serve as a bridge between Beijing and Washington. Others warn his business interests could outweigh U.S. national priorities, creating more problems than solutions.

Will Ripley, CNN, Taipei.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BURNETT: All right, OUTFRONT now, Jonathan Mahler. He is writer for "The New York Times Magazine". He has been writing about Elon Musk.

And, Jonathan, I really appreciate your time.

So, you know, musk has been with Trump pretty much every day since he won the election.

[19:50:00]

Every single photo, you know, those photos that you would get that there was Trump in them. Now, it's Trump and Musk. I mean, literally every single one.

And you can laugh at it. But then you take a step back and go, wow, what's really going on here? I mean, and to this, Jonathan, look, musk is already the richest man in the world by far. You know been there, done that for him. I mean, what do you think he's really after here? I mean, is this really about running the country or -- I mean, what's it about? Do you think?

JONATHAN MAHLER, STAFF WRITER, THE NEW YORK TIMES MAGAZINE: Yeah. I mean, I think there are a few things going on. I think there are there are real business interests. I mean, you know, in particular I think right now Musk's companies are under -- under numerous something like 20 investigations reviews inquiries by the federal government so, you know, he including, you know, one that's maybe -- maybe particularly significant is -- concerns his self-driving vehicles at Tesla which are, you know, a big, big part of the future of that company.

So you know, that's -- that there is real business interest here and, you know, at the same time, I think that, you know, when you Musk is not like other businessmen. He's -- he's -- he has a kind of another a little bit weirder agenda, which is, you know, he's a kind of a techno utopianist who believes that he's kind of building a new world, kind of kind of moving humanity toward a toward a new future. And, you know, hence his obsession with colonizing Mars for instance.

And I think he believes that, you know, a government you know, where he has a lot of influence and particularly a government where he has a lot of influence that's -- that's ready to kind of cut back on all sorts of regulatory oversight, is going to make it a lot easier for him to kind of achieve this -- this other agenda, which is not -- not a purely financial agenda. As I said, it's kind of a -- it's kind of a somewhat stranger kind of techno utopian agenda. And it sounds kind of funny, but it's true. I mean, he's not the only one who kind of is -- is kind of in that -- in that category.

BURNETT: Yeah. Well, techno utopian, techno dystopian, I guess it depends how you look at it. But to have someone --

MAHLER: Right, if you want -- if you want a computer chip implanted in your brain, yeah.

BURNETT: Right, right. I mean, you know, unelected, I mean, yes, you know, but it is, I think its going to be something fascinating for all of us to grapple with because, you know, you see the pictures and you smile and you realize it's a real change in the way things are done in this country.

All right. Jonathan, thank you so much, and I appreciate it.

MAHLER: Sure.

BURNETT: Well, look forward to talking to you again soon.

All right. And next, Susan Smith, who drowned her two children, 30 years ago in a case that shocked the nation and the world, frankly, appeared in court today in which you hear what she had to say.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[19:56:45]

BURNETT: Tonight, Susan Smith, the mother serving a life sentence for drowning her two young sons, sobbing and pleading for parole, after 30 years behind bars.

Her ex-husband, the boys' father, had none of it. Her request was denied.

Smith was 23, in 1994 when she told police her sons were taken after she was carjacked. She made a point to say that the culprit was a Black man before confessing to drowning them in her car.

Her three decades in prison have been far from uneventful.

And Jean Casarez is OUTFRONT.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

S. SMITH: I think it was horrible.

JEAN CASAREZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Susan Smith emotionally pleading for her freedom at her own parole hearing today.

S. SMITH: I would give anything if I could go back and change it.

CASAREZ: Not unlike she was 30 years ago, in October of 1994, when she was pleading for the return of her two young children. S. SMITH: Please. I mean, please bring them home.

CASAREZ: David Smith, the children's father, was living a nightmare.

DAVID SMITH, SUSAN SMITH'S EX-HUSBAND: It is harder as time goes by to deal with, but we are keeping our spirits high and our hopes high at this time.

CASAREZ: His 23-year-old estranged wife first told him that their sons, 3-year-old Michael and 14-year-old Alex, had been abducted in Susan's car by a Black man. South Carolina law enforcement asked people around the country for help.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Just team up with somebody and go from there.

CASAREZ: For nine days, law enforcement and volunteers searched for the children, but Susan knew the truth.

Investigators began to catch on that Susan was a fraud.

Susan finally confessed that she was responsible for her children's death, letting her car roll off into a nearby lake with Michael and Alex in the back seat. Strapped to their car seats.

HOWARD WELLS, FORMER UNION COUNTY SHERIFF: Susan Smith has been arrested and will be charged with two counts of murder in connection with the deaths of her children.

LARRY KING, FORMER CNN HOST: There was some boyfriend that didn't like the kids.

D. SMITH: He didn't -- he didn't want children. He didn't want a ready made family.

CASAREZ: At trial, prosecutors brought out the motive for the crimes. A wealthy man, she was seen at the time didn't want children in his life. The defense argued she was suffering from mental health issues.

JUDGE: Court is in session.

CASAREZ: Following a conviction in her death penalty trial, Smith got a life sentence, but sanctions and scandals in prison have impacted her chance for freedom. From drug use to having sex with at least one prison employee one of those employees, former prison guard Alfred Rowe, spoke with NewsNation before the hearing.

ALFRED ROWE, EX-PRISON GUARD WHO HAD SEX WITH SUSAN SMITH IN PRISON: I just fell into her sweet talk and manipulation.

CASAREZ: David Smith determined to keep his ex-wife behind bars, focusing on his children, Michael and Alex.

D. SMITH: That's only 15 years per child.

CASAREZ: Getting emotional while speaking on their behalf in today's hearing. D. SMITIH: I'm asking that you today. I miss him very much and I love

him very much and I will be here every two years going forward to ensure that their death doesn't go in vain.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CASAREZ: And there will be another parole hearing in two years for Susan Smith.

You know, her representative spoke today has been taking a lot of courses, anger management, mental health classes and also self- improvement classes. He said she tried to commit suicide two times in prison. Her father tried to commit suicide and succeeded when she was 6 years old. He said this is a mental health case and a conviction.

BURNETT: All right. Thank you very much, Jean.

And thanks so much to all of you.

"AC360" starts now.