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Erin Burnett Outfront
Manhattan DA: Could Be New Charges Against CEO Murder Suspect; Mystery Grows Over Assad's Whereabouts, Relationship With Putin; Trump Thinks Governor Noem Should Lead DHS, Does Her State Agree? Aired 7-8p ET
Aired December 11, 2024 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[19:00:41]
ERIN BURNETT, CNN HOST: OUTFRONT next:
We have breaking news. The Manhattan district attorney moments ago said he's looking at more charges for the CEO murder suspect, as we learn what Luigi Mangione's mother told police about her missing son. Mangione's attorney will be OUTFRONT.
Plus, Ted Kaczynski's brother has a message for the CEO murder suspect who repeatedly praised the Unabomber. This is an OUTFRONT exclusive.
And new details tonight about the relationship between Vladimir Putin and the failed dictator he's hiding in Russia. And what Bashar al- Assad's son was doing on the very day Aleppo fell.
Let's go OUTFRONT.
And good evening. I'm Erin Burnett.
OUTFRONT tonight, we begin with breaking news, more charges. The Manhattan district attorney, Alvin Bragg, says he's confident that the alleged killer, Luigi Mangione, will be extradited to New York and quickly, and that he could face more legal trouble, telling ABC News moments ago, and I quote the district attorney: As we learn more about motives and other things like that, there may be additional charges.
It comes as troubling new details are emerging about the alleged CEO killer Luigi Mangione and the months leading up to the assassination in midtown Manhattan.
Our John Miller this hour is reporting the suspect's mother told authorities that she last spoke to her son on July 1st. So July 1st, she speaks to him 140 days later. November 18th is when she reported him missing to the San Francisco Police Department. She told police at that time that his voicemail was full and she was not able to leave a message.
So 140 days from the conversation to the missing report, and then 16 days after that is when police say Mangione is there on that camera outside a midtown Manhattan Hilton stalking Brian Thompson and opening fire and assassinating him. This is investigators dig deeper into Mangione's past, the mystery
deepening into how a valedictorian of a prestigious prep school in Baltimore ended up as the prime suspect in an assassination that has shocked the nation and the world.
As high school graduate, Mangione, spoke about a common purpose, and he spoke about exploring the unknown.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LUIGI MANGIONE, ALLEGED CEO KILLER: Throughout its time here at Gilman, the class of 2016 has been coming up with new ideas and challenging the world around it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: In the past year, though, his comments took on a much darker tone. He posted about loneliness, attacking the health care industry, railing against modern society, posting about people like Tucker Carlson and conservative podcaster Jordan Peterson who have claimed there's a war on masculinity in America. The dark turn coming, as investigators say they've been able to tie the gun found on Mangione to Thompson's murder.
Brynn Gingras begins our coverage OUTFRONT live in New York.
And, Brynn, what is the latest you're learning?
BRYNN GINGRAS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yeah. Erin. The gun, the fingerprints, the fake ID, all the surveillance video, all is going to be used by police and prosecutors to tie Mangione to the crime. But first, it's going to be crucial for them as well to get Mangione back here in New York as he continues to fight extradition.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
GINGRAS (voice-over): While Luigi Mangione sits alone in a Pennsylvania jail cell, police say they now have crucial connections between the 26-year-old and the Manhattan crime scene.
JESSICA TISCH, NYPD POLICE COMMISSIONER: First, we got the gun in question back from Pennsylvania. It's now at the NYPD crime lab. We were able to match that gun to the three shell casings that we found in midtown at the scene of the homicide.
GINGRAS: The NYPD commissioner also confirming what CNN first reported. Mangione fingerprints match evidence found where UnitedHealth CEO Brian Thompson was gunned down a week ago.
TISCH: We're also able at our crime lab to match the person of interest fingerprints with fingerprints that we found on both the water bottle and the kind bar near the scene of the homicide.
GINGRAS: Sources also telling CNN a to do list on how to carry out a killing was found in the pages of a spiral notebook, along with notes justifying the plan, suggesting what could be better than, quote, to kill the CEO at his own bean counting conference.
LUIGI MANGIONE, ALLEGED CEO KILLER: It's completely out of touch and an insult to the intelligence of the American people. It's lived experience!
[19:05:02]
GINGRAS: Investigators are also working to track his whereabouts days, weeks, months before the murder, a hotel clerk telling ABC, Mangione tried to check into this Altoona, Pennsylvania, hotel before his arrest.
JOHN KUKLIS, HOTEL CLERK: There was somebody that checked in, and the officer goes, did he have a mask on? Did he ever take a mask off? I was like, no, he never did take his mask off. He says, I'll be down there in five minutes to talk to you. We pulled it up on surveillance and sure enough, they go, yeah. That's him.
GINGRAS: In February, Mangione traveled to Japan and met Japanese poker player June, who tweeted about having lunch with him in Tokyo. A month later, it appears the 26 year old went backpacking in Thailand and told a fellow traveler he was in between jobs and was planning to return to the U.S. in June. He stopped hearing from him in July, according to Reuters.
Mangione's neighbor in Hawaii says he ran into him 3 or 4 months ago after not seeing him for a long time.
CHRIS KWOCK, NEIGHBOR IN HAWAII: He was a nice guy. He, you know, said hi. We rode the elevator a couple of times, always smiling, really good. I just asked him where he's been and for like six months, he was like on the mainland, like he just said medical stuff.
GINGRAS: Then, this summer, it seems as if Mangione fell off the grid as concerned friends reached out. I haven't heard from you in months, one friend commented on X.
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GINGRAS (on camera): And more about that missing persons report. Police source -- sources, rather, are telling us that at the time, his mother told police that she didn't think that he would harm himself or others. This is just another example of what we've heard from so many people that they are just in disbelief that this 26-year-old is the main suspect in this cold-blooded killing -- Erin.
BURNETT: All right. Brynn, thank you very much.
And I want to go now to Thomas Dickey. He is the defense attorney for Luigi Mangione.
And, Thomas, I appreciate your time. And obviously you are dealing with this your other cases as well in court today.
The NYPD commissioner tonight is announcing that the gun that your client had on him when he was arrested in Pennsylvania at that McDonald's, they are saying that specific gun matches the three shell casings at the scene of the murder in New York.
What's your response to that from the New York NYPD commissioner tonight?
THOMAS DICKEY, ATTORNEY FOR CEO MURDER SUSPECT LUIGI MANGIONE: Yes, Erin, thank you for having me, first of all. You know, Erin, I still haven't seen that evidence. Lawyers need to see evidence. Those saying you have something and getting that admitted into court are two different things. The -- and in fact, so what were talking about is fingerprint evidence and some ballistics, those two sciences in and of themselves have come under some criticism in the past, relative to their credibility, their truthfulness, their accuracy, however you want to do it.
So that's why as lawyers, we need to see it. We need to see how do they collect it, how much of it matches. You know, like, I don't want to get too technical, but fingerprints, they go by ridges, different things like that.
And then we would have our experts. We would have experts take a look at that, and then we would challenge its admissibility and challenge the accuracy of those results.
BURNETT: So, you know, when you mentioned its the ballistics but also the fingerprints when -- you're talking about fingerprints and the ridges on the fingerprints. You just mentioned specifically. The NYPD does say those fingerprints matched the fingerprints. Your client's fingerprints matched the fingerprints on the water bottle. And that kind bar near the murder scene.
So -- so is what you're saying, that you're not sure that the methodology that they're using or the company that they're -- or however, that they're matching those fingerprints, you're not confident in that?
DICKEY: Well, I have I'd have to see it. I mean, anybody can I -- if they're going to use it, of course, they're going to say that. But you have to see things. And that's why, you know, people need to keep an open mind.
And, you know, we would get our day in court and we would get that evidence, and we can examine that evidence and challenge it, and, you know, all the way. And we'd do so.
BURNETT: At this point, are you do -- so has your client said anything to you? I mean, are you disputing that he was in New York City?
DICKEY: Yeah. I'm not going to get into any communications between my client and I. That's not proper. And again, you know, if and when formal charges are filed, it. No question that my client would indicate a plea of not guilty.
BURNETT: No question that -- so you're sure it'll be a not guilty plea? Do you -- do you know when you're going to get --
(CROSSTALK) DICKEY: I'm sorry. Go ahead.
BURNETT: No, no. Go ahead. Finish your thought.
DICKEY: Yeah. The burden of proof is always on the government. Okay?
So, you know, again, people forget that he and any other person charged with a crime is presumed innocent. That means we start off square one with a presumption of innocence, of him being innocent. And the rest then follows. And then -- and then we challenge the evidence and contest it and battle it out in court where it belongs.
BURNETT: Right. Well, it's important, though, that, you know, you're indicating there's no question that he would have a plea for not guilty when -- when these all these when he makes that plea.
[19:10:02]
May I just ask you, though, Thomas, just your sense of the situation they're putting out. The NYPD commissioner is saying, right, that the ballistics match. The NYPD is saying that the fingerprints match. You're saying you haven't seen this evidence? Are you frustrated that you haven't seen it? Do you -- I mean, are you -- are you trying to get your hands on that at this time?
DICKEY: Yeah. Unfortunately, the way the process works is we don't get it right away. They don't have to give it to us. Yu know, until certain times and certain spots as the case moves forward, I'm trying to get my hands on as much as I can, but again, you have to see it.
You can't examine something and comment on it. And that's what's frustrating about it, because we get to see it and we get to hire our own experts and look at it and, you know, all the methodology that's involved in it and challenge it.
BURNETT: So when you talk about --
DICKEY: That's my duty to my client and I welcome that.
BURNETT: No, I understand and that -- that's -- that's the way this would go. I am curious, though, I know that when you've talked about his mental health such that you've interacted with him so far, especially in the context of the rage that he displayed yesterday when he showed up at court, you said that he from what you could see, he's able to make, quote/unquote, knowing decisions.
So it just seems to me and I don't want to get ahead of it, but it seems to me very clear that what you're saying is here is that you are going to plead not guilty. Not "not guilty" by way of insanity or anything like that. Just a plain and simple, clear, not guilty.
DICKEY: Yeah. So first of all, about this outrage, you know, he's irritated, agitated about what's happening to him and what he's being accused of. He never had any legal representation until he walked into that building yesterday. And I talked to him. And if you notice, look at the film, look at the difference between
when he went in and when he came out and said, once he got in, he finally had legal representation. I like to think he had somebody that he can trust and has faith in, and now he has a spokesperson and someone that's going to fight for him.
And so, I think you'll see a big difference in the demeanor. And I think that part of that, whatever you want to interpret that as yesterday was a lot of the frustration of being a young man thrown in jail, and being accused of very serious matters.
BURNETT: So, so just to be clear and I -- you know, but to be clear, you didn't meet him then. So when he when we see that rage, you haven't had a chance at that point to have spoken to him or seen him. Your first meeting was actually when he went in the courtroom.
(CROSSTALK)
BURNETT: Yeah.
DICKEY: No, actually, that was into a holding area, and I was on the other side of that. So my first contact with him visually was before he even had a chance to speak with him, was him coming through that door. And you saw the interaction between he and the sheriff's department and then look at the -- look at the video of him coming out and look at the difference. He's now had legal counsel. I was upset that he didn't have any legal counsel prior to that. You know, that extradition hearing came upon really quick and he hadn't talked to anybody.
BURNETT: So, Thomas, do you know at this point why he was in Altoona?
DICKEY: Again, I -- that would be their burden of proof. Again, I can't get into anything -- any communications between -- that occurred between my client and myself.
BURNETT: Have you been able --
DICKEY: I'm bound by law that I can't.
BURNETT: Yes. So I was laying out in the introduction the timeline here, right, that his mother said she spoke to him on July 1st, and then 140 days went by between that conversation and the day that she reported him missing in San Francisco. Have you had a chance to speak with her or any other family members at this point?
DICKEY: Again, I'm not going to get into that. I'm not going to get into, you know, what my investigation has been up to this point. And, you know, I appreciate the job you guys do as reporters because I'm actually using different news reports as my source of information because nobody's sharing these evidentiary things with me.
And again, unfortunately, I can't get into, you know, my oath and my duty, my loyalties to my client. And I can't get into certain things, and again. I -- you know, biting at the bit, so to speak, you know, waiting to get my hands on this stuff, so we can start attacking it. BURNETT: Right. Now, I want to ask you one thing, if I may, before we go, and maybe you'll be able to give an answer to this one in a more fulsome way.
DICKEY: Sure.
BURNETT: But police say that Mangione gave them a forged New Jersey ID when they apprehended him at that McDonald's in Altoona. And that that ID, I'm showing it here. I don't know if you can see it, Thomas, but it's the ID under the name Mark Rosario, when he was arrested. They say that that matches the ID that the man at the hostel used in New York.
That's the photo that we're showing here. That's him. There were two there. One when he is smiling at the person checking him in and then the other one -- the two times we saw his face in New York.
When you look at this and -- I mean, this is this is you as a lawyer, you as a citizen, do you think that those pictures look alike, the ID and the actual video captures that they have of the man?
[19:15:06]
DICKEY: Well, first of all, I cannot see them. You threw a compound question.
Being a lawyer -- well, I am a citizen, but I'm in different roles when I'm a citizen and as a lawyer. I am Luigi's lawyer. I've entered pleas of not guilty to the charges in Pennsylvania. We have a hearing scheduled, I believe, for December 23rd. That's when they're going to at least introduce some evidence.
I'm -- like I said, I'm dying to get my hands and my eyes on this stuff so I can --
BURNETT: So you don't think you're going to get that evidence until December 23rd? Let's just be clear. That's a Monday, the day before Christmas Eve.
DICKEY: That's -- you know, I'm going to try to get it beforehand. Technically, under the rules, they don't have to give it to me until we have the hearing. And that's frustrating.
BURNETT: Wow. All right, well, thank you very much.
DICKEY: Those are rules.
BURNETT: Yeah, it is so, so. But so you would have it by that day at the latest. You're going to try to get it before then.
Thomas, I appreciate your time and thank you very much. I appreciate it. Thank you, sir.
DICKEY: Thank you, Erin. Thank you -- thank you for having me. And keep an open mind. Everybody, please. Thank you.
BURNETT: All right. Thank you.
And John Miller is with me, former NYPD intelligence chief, along with Tim Clemente, former FBI counterterror agent.
So, John, you hear Thomas talking about the state of the case as he sees it. What do you hear there?
JOHN MILLER, CNN CHIEF LAW ENFORCEMENT AND INTELLIGENCE ANALYST: What I hear is a lawyer doing his job pushing that. You know, all defendants are presumed innocent until proven guilty. But there were certain answers to questions like, do you know what he was doing in Altoona, Pennsylvania? And he said, the burden of proof is on the prosecution, which is not the answer.
Yes, I know, no, I don't. He said he couldn't get into discussions with his client, so he hasn't had much time and he hasn't had access to discovery.
So when he says, I haven't seen any evidence proving my client had anything to do with it, it's literally correct. But he's -- he's -- he's playing it down the middle, which is if there's prints that say that, we're going to attack that.
BURNETT: Right.
MILLER: If there's ballistics, we need to look at it.
BURNETT: And interesting, Tim, I mean, he was very clear from the conversations he's had so far with Luigi Mangione that the plea, if it were today, the plea is not guilty. And then he was very clear that they're not trying to do not guilty by way of insanity. That's not the way that this is going to start, at least at this point. That was what I took away from that in a very black and white way.
TIM CLEMENTE, FORMER FBI COUNTERTERRORISM AGENT: Yeah, I would agree. It looks like its just going to be a straight not guilty, but it doesn't mean that's going to be the end defense. Once he starts seeing that evidence that he's trying to deny actually exists, or claim that it may not be as good as the NYPD is saying it is, once he sees that and sees how damning the case is, I think the plea eventually will change. I think the tactic defensively will be much different when this gets to trial.
BURNETT: And I am curious, John, also, when he was talking about the way he met him, he's sort of saying -- well, that outrage was before I met him. So that, you know, he's saying this young man acting the way a young man might is coming in. And then a lawyer met him, established this some sort of a rapport and that he's saying, and you didn't see him behave that way afterwards.
MILLER: That's right. And, you know, I think that acting out, getting out of the car, some might interpret that as laying the foundation for some kind of claim or plea that, you know, he's emotionally disturbed.
One of the difficulties and, you know, Mr. Dickey said that that is not their go to, you know, not guilty by reason of insanity. BURNETT: Right.
But one of the challenges with that plea is that there are legal standards about, well, did the person know right from wrong? Were they capable of understanding that? Did they know what they were doing?
And when you look at the evidence that we've seen in this case, and were still going with the presumption of innocence, because that's the -- that's the rule, the evidence shows us an extraordinary amount of meticulousness and deliberateness to conceal the crime, to make the getaway, to not get caught. So to say he didn't understand what was right or wrong, given that effort would be illogical and a tough sell.
BURNETT: And, you know, there's a lot we don't know, Tim, that the lawyer doesn't know. I'm sure of that. And no one knows at this point, which is all the details about where this person was in the past six months. Mother talks to him July 1st, 140 days go by, everybody's looking for him. His voicemail is full.
Then she finally makes the call. I think there's a lot of questions about that. Obviously, but we know in that time, at some point, he was in Thailand, according to "Reuters", he was in Asia. You know, he was his online posts seemed to shift to a very negative view of things.
So what do you make of that?
CLEMENTE: Well, I mean, his personality obviously involved. When you talk to the friends as you have over the last couple of days, that he went to high school and college with, and they never would have foreseen something like this.
So obviously something happened. There was a trigger in his life that caused his behavior to change dramatically.
[19:20:04]
And he was always a brilliant student, always a bright, smart young man. But somehow that brainpower was turned to an evil methodology to figure out how he could kill this CEO. And as John just mentioned, those writings are going to be very and it's going to be tough for the -- for the defense to come up with a way of proving that he didn't change and that this wasn't him, because clearly there was a trigger there. We don't know what it was. We don't know what caused him to separate from his family friends. But something did, obviously.
BURNETT: And the yelling going into court yesterday was a person owning -- owning some of the concepts that were out there, right? I mean, as opposed to distancing himself.
All right. Yeah?
MILLER: If you look at the -- if you look at some of the blank spots, there are some tells that at least raise questions, which is the injury and the surfing accident to his back, the amount of pain, he writes he's in, the medications that may have been given to him that could be mind-altering chemically, and the fact that he ends up back in San Francisco and staying where a kid from a wealthy family in a youth hostel where you need not much ID and can pay with cash.
I mean, as he was having what may have been a severe emotional turn where he lost touch with his family, he may have also been getting some of the ideas for how he would pull this off.
BURNETT: All right. Thank you both very much.
And next, investigators are looking at whether Mangione's back pain had anything to do with the murder. His former yoga instructor, who is new details about his former client's physical health just months before the murder will be OUTFRONT next.
Plus, the mystery deepening tonight over former Syrian President Bashar al-Assad's whereabouts and what Putin knows and may or may not be doing for his one time close ally.
And Trump's pick for homeland security, Kristi Noem, says she's the one who will carry out Trump's mass deportation plan. But a CNN investigation found those plans could destroy her own home state.
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Within two days, we will not have food. There will not be food anywhere.
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[19:26:01]
BURNETT: Breaking news: moving and grinding. That is how a person believed to be the murder suspect described his back pain on a Reddit post. That post is from February 5th of this year. The post reads, quote, once the spine is unstable and you can feel the bones moving grinding, that isn't something you try to medicate. That's something you go in and fix. I'm sure that will become standard medical knowledge in a decade, but it seems were a bit early.
Well, this is coming as investigators are probing whether a back injury played any sort of a role, perhaps an important one in the murder, and whether Luigi Mangione's insurance claims were denied. Mangione leaving clues about his back pain all over the Internet. I mean, he posted a picture of his X-ray on his Twitter profile. Mangione also reviewed six books on Goodreads that were about back pain, including one called "Crooked: Outwitting the Back Pain Industry and Getting on the Road to Recovery".
OUTFRONT now, Dorian Wright. He's a yoga instructor in Honolulu, Hawaii, where Luigi Mangione lived.
And, Dorian, so you -- you knew him. He came to your studio several times while he lived in Hawaii, which I understand was around 2022, and he had back pain at the time. He was doing things to try to ameliorate it, from what I understand.
What did he tell you about his back injury?
DORIAN WRIGHT, YOGA INSTRUCTOR TO CEO MURDER SUSPECT: I remember him, he we were doing a back bend. It was either a camel, which is called Ustrasana or Dhanurasana, where you're lying on your stomach.
And I remember going up to him to adjust, because a lot of times I'll make adjustments. People are doing something wrong or -- and he said, oh, I have a back injury. I don't think I can do this one. So I told him, you can skip it or we can do a light version of it, because sometimes even when people have back injuries, they can do kind of light back bends, because the back bends are so good for the nervous system and the immune system.
So -- but I do remember him. He was a nice guy. He looked like my cousin in law. That's how I remember his face. And, yeah, he just -- I just remember him being a really nice guy.
BURNETT: And how would you describe his demeanor when he was at your studio? I mean, et the feeling that in part he was doing this because of, you know, some of the ailments that he had, the back pain that he had and he thought that yoga would improve it?
WRIGHT: I think so. A lot of people come to our studio that have like broken bodies or they have issues and they look they know that, you know, yoga is really good for -- for problems like that. He didn't -- when he came into the studio, he didn't strike. There was nothing weird about him. He came in with R.J., who was from Surfbreak.
BURNETT: Yeah.
WRIGIHT: And R.J. would -- would often bring people that wanted to do yoga or had, you know, problems with their body. And R.J. would say how great it is. I mean, he used to be a wrestler, so he has his fair share of injuries.
So, yeah, there was nothing that, you know, was -- was out of the -- the norm with him.
BURNETT: And, and I know our viewers are familiar with R.J. because, you know, we've heard from him and you know, talking about his relationship with -- with Luigi.
One other question I wanted to ask you about the connection that he had to your yoga studio, though I know one of your colleagues had matched with him just the way that the algorithm worked on Tinder while he was coming to your classes.
What did she tell you?
WRIGHT: That -- that's our teacher, Summer. And she was taking the class with him one morning in my class, and she said, oh, he's so handsome. I wanted to, you know, walk up to him and talk to him and go out on a date with him. But she said she got too nervous. So -- and that was that was the connection with her.
BURNETT: That was the connection, but interesting. And it does show, you know, that he was social and he was, you know, that he would have that that profile.
All right. Well, Dorian, I really appreciate your time and thank you for sharing all of that.
WRIGHT: Thank you, Erin.
BURNETT: All right. I want to go now to orthopedic spine surgeon, Dr. Richard Nachwalter, because he's reviewed the X-ray image that Mangione posted. And now you just heard what Dorian was saying about, you know, what he could and couldn't do in yoga, and his back pain.
[19:30:01]
So you've looked at the profile that Mangione posted on his X profile, a picture that he actually sent to R.J., who had shared it with us just the other day of the, you know, his back. You've reviewed it. What did it tell you?
DR. RICHARD NACHWALTER, ORTHOPEDIC SPINE SURGEON: So if we took the metal out, the lumbar spine has slipped. So at the very bottom, it'd probably be easier if I show on this model, because it'd be bigger. So, the spine -- this is the vertebral body and the back of the vertebral body is the lamina and the pars. So at 26, the most commonly would be an old sports injury.
BURNETT: Right, because 26. He's a young person, right, OK.
NACHWALTER: So 26-year-olds don't have arthritis.
So what happens is from repetitive stress this bone cracks and then the disc at the bottom, which was designed to absorb compression starts to see shear forces, and as a result L5, this vertebral body slid forward. And that's what you see on his on his x-ray.
Everybody with that doesn't have symptoms and everybody doesn't go on to have surgery. And you can live with it and you can try to do yoga, all the things that he did. If it continues to bother you, then you stabilize it. So we take off that broken piece of bone and then we put some screws in.
BURNETT: And that's what you saw.
NACHWALTER: And that stabilizes it, right.
BURNETT: All right. So you know, in archived Reddit comments. And he had been active on various social profiles. He talks about his struggle to deal with the back pain. And he said it became increasingly debilitating. You know, R.J. had told us about one basic surfing lesson, kept him in bed for a week, and then he had to get a whole new bed.
But he posted on Reddit, from childhood until age 23, my back would always ache if I stood too long, but it wasn't too bad. But from childhood to age 23, you know that is unusual. You don't hear people that age usually complaining about that.
And then one of his friends said this:
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
R.J. MARTIN, LIVED WITH LUIGI MANGIONE, SUSPECT IN CEO KILLING: I think that pain is something that can change our brain chemistry. When somebody's suffering, the way they think about themselves and the world gets warped drastically. And a lot of times you, you go to dark places when you're in excruciating pain and, you know, perhaps not receiving the care or the support that you need.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: Is that something that you see or would think makes sense? I mean, that the pain that he could have had from what you -- you were just describing could change his brain chemistry or warp someone drastically, emotionally?
NACHWALTER: How people will respond to pain is very variable. You see some people who are writhing in pain and managing very well, and some people have no tolerance at all. So it's a very variable. It's a difficult thing to answer.
BURNETT: Would something like this and I know it depends on the case, but it would, would it be a natural thing when you look at what he had in those giant, you know, metal pieces that that would have, quote/unquote, fixed it? I don't want to be too simplistic.
NACHWALTER: Sure.
BURNETT: But would that possibly have transformed his experience for the better?
NACHWALTER: So the results from this surgery should be very predictable. And if you have a well-indicated, well-executed surgery, if it was done well and he recovered well, he should be able to go back and do whatever you want. He should be able to run and play sports and live a life relatively pain free. It should be very predictable.
BURNETT: Right. So if you're thinking if that happened at the beginning of the year --
NACHWALTER: Right.
BURNETT: -- things would have gotten better. But of course, then it does appear that, they didn't obviously, in his case, from what we understand.
All right. Well, Dr. Nachwalter, I really appreciate your time, and thank you very much.
NACHWALTER: My pleasure. Thanks for having me.
BURNETT: And next, an OUTFRONT exclusive, Ted Kaczynski's brother speaking out tonight, and he has a message for Luigi Mangione, who praised the Unabomber. And where is Putin hiding Bashar al-Assad, the Syrian dictator who
fled to Moscow and was given asylum by Putin. We have a special report tonight from Moscow.
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[19:37:37]
BURNETT: The breaking news and exclusive statement to OUTFRONT from the brother of the Unabomber, Ted Kaczynski. Tonight, after learning that the CEO murder suspect praised the Unabomber, David Kaczynski tells us he sent us this.
He says, quote, I love my brother. And turning him in was the most difficult and painful thing I've had to do in my life. But as much as I love Ted, I hate what he did to kill and maim his fellow human beings. Whatever you may think of Ted Kaczynski's ideas -- and I do believe they merit thinking about, we must reject his harmful actions.
It comes as we are learning more about the similarities between Luigi Mangione and Ted Kaczynski.
And Jason Carroll is OUTFRONT.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MANGIONE: And an insult to the intelligence of the American people.
JASON CARROLL, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: If Luigi Mangione speaks like he did outside court Tuesday, investigators listened closely and not just to what he's saying now that he's in custody, but also to what he has said or written in the past, such as these unsettling words: Violence never solved anything is a statement uttered by cowards and predators.
Mangione wrote that in January 2024, in support of the notorious Unabomber Ted Kaczynski. Its part of the Goodreads review. Mangione wrote of Kaczynski's 1995 anti-technology manifesto "Industrial Society and Its Future".
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We just hope that this might be of additional assistance in obtaining leads regarding the Unabomber suspect.
CARROLL: Kaczynski terrorized the nation for years. He served eight life sentences for sending mail bombs that killed three and wounded 23 others from the late '70s until the mid '90s.
According to an NYPD intelligence analysis report obtained by CNN, Mangione may have found inspiration in Ted Kaczynski. The report reads. He notably praised the writings of Kaczynski.
Mangione, like several passages from Kaczynski's manifesto, in his review, defending it, writing, it's easy to quickly and thoughtless write this off as the manifesto of a lunatic.
SCOTT BONN, CRIMINOLOGIST: I think Mangione is very much inspired by the work of Kaczynski and his manifesto.
CARROLL: Scott Bonn is a criminologist who has written about serial killers and Kaczynski. He says he sees a chilling similarity.
BONN: They have to find a way to justify it, and in the case of Kaczynski and also Mangione, I believe, that they justified it as this was a necessary evil.
[19:40:07]
CARROLL: Other notable similarities, both men are highly intelligent and Ivy League educated. Kaczynski, a Harvard grad mathematician, while Mangione minored in mathematics at the University of Pennsylvania, where he also majored in computer science and engineering and had a masters.
Kaczynski was estranged from his family, living as a recluse in Montana. Mangione mother reported her 26-year-old son missing about two weeks before the shooting, telling police at the time she had not spoken to him since July.
And while Kaczynski targeted universities and airlines, Mangione allegedly had his sights set on the health care industry and UnitedHealthcare's CEO. Police found a three page handwritten claim of responsibility on Mangione. He also wrote in a spiral notebook, much like Kaczynski did, writing what could be better than to kill the CEO at his own bean counting conference.
It should be noted that Kaczynski's brother David has spoken out in the wake of the shooting, saying violence is not the answer.
In a statement to CNN saying Kaczynski's actions were blind, misguided, cruel and utterly inconsistent with his goal of preserving our basic humanity, we must remember that our world is never improved by violence, only by love.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CARROLL: And Mangione also wrote that he didn't actually want to use a bomb against his intended victims because it could, quote, kill innocents. But its important again to remember when you think of this case and the Kaczynski case, you have to remember what Kaczynski's brother said, that what his brother did, his actions were blind, that they were misguided. And then, of course, violence is not the answer here.
BURNETT: No, no, but especially important in the context of the heroism that so many have bestowed upon Luigi Mangione in the wake of this.
All right, Jason, thank you very much.
And next, where is Putin hiding Syria's former President Bashar al- Assad. We have not seen him yet, but Fred Pleitgen is in Moscow, and he's going to tell you what he knows from his reporting there next. Plus, Trump's pick to lead Homeland Security, Kristi Noem, she says
she's ready to lead one of the nation's largest agencies. But a CNN investigation tonight finds people in her own home state have a very different view for a very specific reason.
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[19:46:56]
BURNETT: Breaking news, a failed drug state. We are learning more about the spectacular downfall of the brutal Syrian dictator Bashar al Assad. Incredible new video tonight of what appears to be a military warehouse near Damascus. It is full of Captagon, a highly addictive amphetamine.
The multibillion dollar drug trade serving as basically supporting the corrupt regime. The economic lifeline in the face of crippling U.S. sanctions, keeping Bashar al-Assad afloat. All those Bentleys and Porsches and Lamborghinis.
Tonight, the mystery deepens over where exactly Assad is in Russia, what his state is, what Putin is doing with him.
Fred Pleitgen is OUTFRONT and he is in Moscow.
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FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice- over): A warm embrace by two leaders feeding off each other while the Russian president kept Syrian dictator Bashar al Assad in power, Vladimir Putin became one of the most powerful players in the Middle East.
We are now making no difference between Russian blood and Syrian blood, Assad said in 2017.
Now, Putin has granted the deposed dictator asylum in Moscow, but their relationship is over, Russian Middle East expert Ruslan Suleymanov tells me.
RUSLAN SULEYMANOV, RUSSIAN MIDDLE EAST EXPERT: Russia is no longer interested in Mr. Assad. I am sure that the Kremlin will hide Mr. Assad as Russia wants to build up a links with the new government in Syria.
PLEITGEN: The Kremlin is indeed refusing to comment on Assad's exact whereabouts, but in a 2019 investigation, the anti-corruption group global witness claimed members of Assad's family purchased at least 19 apartments and high rises in the Moscow City area.
Moscow City is something like the financial district of the Russian capital, but these skyscrapers don't only offer office space for large companies, there are also residential buildings with very luxurious apartments.
And the Assad family has been affiliated with the Russian capital for years. The dictator's oldest son, Hafez al Assad, studying at Moscow State University.
We found his dissertation from that university on the topic of mathematics and physics online. This official document from Russia's ministry of higher education, showing the dissertation was defended less than two weeks ago on November 29th, exactly the same day rebels took over Aleppo, Syria's second largest city, ringing in the Assad regime's lightning demise and possibly the end of Russia's role as a dominant power in Syria and in the Middle East.
The Kremlin today saying to them, the war in Ukraine is what really matters.
The special military operation is an absolute priority for our country, the Kremlin spokesman said. As for Russia and the Middle East, Russia maintains a dialogue with all countries in the region and we intend to continue doing so.
[19:50:07]
Fred Pleitgen, CNN, Moscow.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BURNETT: And fascinating, and still no sign of him, no parading, no pride, no nothing. What's happening to Bashar al-Assad?
Well, next, Trump believes Kristi Noem should carry out his mass deportation plan. But a CNN investigation finds those plans could wreak havoc on America's food supply it.
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BURNETT: Tonight, South Dakota Governor Kristi Noem on Capitol Hill today, making her case that she can lead one of the biggest government agencies, Homeland Security, which will be overseeing mass deportations that Trump has promised.
But some of her own residents in South Dakota are telling CNN that they don't think she's qualified. This is part of a broader investigation that has frustrated Noem.
Kyung Lah is OUTFRONT.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KYUNG LAH, CNN SENIOR INVESTIGATIVE CORRESPONDENT: So how many hours does this go on?
GREG MOSE (ph), SOUTH DAKOTA DAIRY FARMER: It's 24 hours a day.
LAH: So you need workers like this year round?
MOSE: Yes. Yes.
LAH (voice-over): South Dakota dairy farmer Greg Mose (ph) supports Donald Trump and his pick of his governor, Kristi Noem, to lead the Department of Homeland Security.
[19:55:04]
GOV. KRISTI NOEM (R), SOUTH DAKOTA: The sheer number of illegal migrants coming into this country has made it so that every state is now a border state.
LAH: In this sparsely populated, landlocked state, these three South Dakotans have strong views of their governor and see what a potential Secretary Noem would mean to the rest of the country.
The dairy farmer is drawn to what launched Noem into national politics, her pledge of a MAGA style crackdown on illegal immigration. But it's a tricky issue for Mose.
What percentage of your workers are not U.S. born?
MOSE: Probably half.
LAH: About half?
MOSE: Yeah.
LAH: Do you know what the immigration status is of any of your workers?
MOSE: I don't know.
LAH: Do you ask?
MOSE: Well, can you ask? We have the right papers on file, and there, there is there.
LAH: Are you worried if there were a mass roundup of undocumented migrants that you might lose workers? He might not have enough workers.
MOSE: How are they going to do that? Nobody will be filling the shelves. Nobody will be producing food. Within two days, we will not have food. There will not be food anywhere.
LAH: Two days?
MOSE: Yes.
LAH: Does Governor Noem understand that?
MOSE: I would think so. I'm pretty sure.
LAH: It sounds like you have a lot of faith that they're not going to do what they're saying.
MOSE: That's pretty much what I'm thinking. We have to trust in our officials that are put in place.
: I think if they follow through, he's going to lose a lot of workers. LAH: Unlike the dairy farmer, Boyd Gourneau, chairman of the Lower
Brule Sioux Tribe, believes Noem's mass deportation threats, the relationship between all nine of South Dakota's tribes and Noem completely broken. All the tribes have banned her from walking onto native land. That's an estimated 15 percent of the governor's own state.
The governor of the state, Kristi Noem.
BOYD GOURNEAU, CHAIRMAN, LOWER BRULE SIOUK TRIBE: Yeah.
LAH: She can stand where we are.
GOURNEAU: Yes. No, she -- she can't cross the line. She's forbidden from our lands.
LAH: The governor of your state?
GOURNEAU: Yes.
LAH: Cannot come onto reservation.
GOURNEAU: Right.
LAH: How did this happen?
GOURNEAU: Basically, she said some very derogatory and untrue things about a cartel holding up shop on reservations.
NOEM: The cartels have a presence on several of South Dakota's tribal reservations. They have been successful in recruiting tribal members to join their criminal activity.
GOURNEAU: It's not true.
LAH: Is this about race?
GOURNEAU: I think it is, yes.
LAH: Why do you think that?
GOURNEAU: Did she say anything about cartels being in Rapid City or Sioux Falls?
LAH: That are primarily white?
GOURNEAU: Yes. No, she didn't. She targeted us.
LAH: The tribe chairman has seen a lifetime of insults. Every sign marking the start of Lower Brule Sioux tribal land has bullet holes. Noem's cartel charge was one insult too much.
GOURNEAU: It's dehumanizing. I just don't know if were really ever have been accepted as human beings sometimes.
LAH: Two hundred and fifty miles away in another corner of South Dakota, a community lies broken.
And the water came, how high?
DENNIS JOHNSON, MCCOOK LAKE, SOUTH DAKOTA RESIDENT: About to the base level of the house. So you see that wood.
LAH: Floods this summer ravaged Dennis Johnson's neighborhood in the southeast corner of the state.
JOHNSON: The National Guard was not here. They were not deployed. They weren't here to help.
NOEM: In order for the National Guard to be activated, the county has to request it. And then I make a decision if it's warranted. That's usually typically a very crisis situation, and the National Guard is extremely expensive.
LAH: But she did send the state's National Guard to the U.S. Mexico border, about 1,200 miles away, five times.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Governor Noem from South Dakota.
LAH: Elevating her national political profile. If Noem is confirmed as DHS secretary, she will oversee FEMA and respond to the nation's disasters.
MORGAN SPEICHINGER, MCCOOK LAKE, SOUTH DAKOTA RESIDENT: It's for anti -- anti-Noem.
LAH: Anger still seethes that she didn't use a South Dakota guard to directly help South Dakotans.
SPEICHINGER: They've been down to the Texas border several times, wasting our money for them to go down there to help a situation that's not affecting us here directly.
LAH: But South Dakota is a Republican stronghold, and even as we stood at Dennis Johnson's mangled home, the signs of this family's faith in Noem holds tight as she eyes federal leadership.
JOHNSON: I would rather have her standing strong on the issues of abortion and traditional families and things like that, than whether the National Guard was here to help me clean up.
LAH: That's more important than what happened to your house.
JOHNSON: Yeah, yeah.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
LAH (on camera): Governors -- Governor Noem's office did not respond to our repeated requests for comment. But as you mentioned, Erin, she was on Capitol Hill today. Our story posted this morning, and she was asked about our story as she met with senators in the hallway by reporters. She said it was, quote, absolutely not true, that she had neglected the state, the flood victims after that disaster and that, quote, we're continuing to work through the FEMA process to bring them -- to bring them the resources they need. She did not address other aspects of our reporting, Erin.
BURNETT: All right. Kyung, thank you very much for that extensive reporting.
And thanks so much to all of you for being with us.
"AC360" starts now.
