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Erin Burnett Outfront
Trump Admin Resists "Russian Aggression" Phrase In G7 Document; Elon Musk's Chainsaw; "Inflation Is Back"; Surgeon: Insurance Is Taking The "Humanity" Out Of Health Care. Aired 7-8p ET
Aired February 20, 2025 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[19:00:37]
BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: OUTFRONT next:
Breaking news, Trump taking Putin's side. Tonight, his administration pushing back on blaming Russian aggression for the war in Ukraine as one key Republican lashes out at Trump for palling around with Putin.
Plus, it's chainsaw massacre. Elon Musk now wielding a chainsaw on stage as he dismantles the U.S. government.
And inflation is back. Those words from Trump as stocks drop and the world's largest retailer now bracing for a tough year. What can we expect?
The "Shark Tank's" Kevin O'Leary is my guest.
Let's go OUTFRONT.
(MUSIC)
KEILAR: Good evening. I'm Brianna Keilar, in for Erin Burnett.
OUTFRONT tonight, breaking news: Siding with Putin. Sources telling CNN, Trump's administration is pushing back on some key words in a statement to mark the third anniversary of Russia's invasion of Ukraine. The phrase "Russian aggression", two words that have been used in G7 documents since the very beginning of the war. Yet now, team Trump wants them removed, part of a growing effort to appease Putin.
Just listen to Trump's national security adviser today again and again, unable to answer two very simple questions.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REPORTER: The president has called Zelenskyy a dictator. Does he view Putin as a dictator?
MIKE WALTZ, NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: I want to make clear today, he's focused on stopping the fighting and moving forward.
REPORTER: Who does he think is more responsible for the Russian invasion of Ukraine? Putin or Zelenskyy? WALTZ: Well, look, his -- his goal here is to bring this war to an
end.
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: You wrote in an op-ed in the fall of 2023 that, quote, Putin is to blame, certainly like al Qaeda was to blame for 9/11.
WALTZ: Uh-huh.
COLLINS: Do you still feel that way now, or do you share the president's assessment as he says, Ukraine is to blame for the start of this war?
WALTZ: Look, what I share the president's assessment on is that the war has to end.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KEILAR: The facts are Putin is a dictator. And he did, in fact, start the war in Ukraine. Don't take my word for it. Here's Republican Senator Thom Tillis, just a short time ago.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. THOM TILLIS (R-NC): Vladimir Putin is a liar, a murderer and responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians. I support President Trump, and I believe that most of his policies on national security are right. I believe his instincts are pretty good.
But what I'm telling you, whoever believes that there is any space for Vladimir Putin in the future of a stable globe, better go to Ukraine. They better go to Europe. They better invest the time to understand that this man is a cancer and the greatest threat to democracy in my lifetime.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KEILAR: A cancer and the greatest threat to democracy.
That is why the French president, Emmanuel Macron, is traveling to meet with Trump to deliver this message.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
EMMANUEL MACRON, FRENCH PRESIDENT (through translator): What I am going to do is that I'm going to tell him, basically, you cannot be weak in the face of President Putin.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KEILAR: Jeff Zeleny is OUTFRONT live from the White House tonight. Nick Paton Walsh is in Ukraine.
And, Jeff, let's start with you.
The White House's offensive against Zelenskyy in Ukraine really showing no signs of letting up tonight.
JEFF ZELENY, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: It's not, Brianna, and all over the simple question of who started this war nearly three years ago. In fact, on Monday, that is the third year. History, of course, will show that it is Russia. But that is something that the president and the Trump administration have been unwilling to say all week long.
It started earlier this week in Mar-a-Lago when the president said no. It was in fact Ukraine that started the war, suggesting that Vladimir Zelenskyy could have cut some kind of a deal or let go of some kind of territory from his country to stop this invasion.
But now, we are learning tonight, even the G7 statement, as you said, that has always said Russia aggression. They were putting out a statement in advance of the third anniversary of the war. We are told that U.S. officials are objecting to those words "Russian aggression". And now there is a back and forth among a leader and nations in the G7.
Of course, the G7 is the group of seven nations, that is the group of the world's largest economies. Russia used to be in that group. Of course, they were expelled more than a decade ago.
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The Trump administration now has been calling on them to be readmitted. Other members of the G7 have said no, that should not happen. But now, we are learning that the U.S. is objecting to the words Russia aggression being part of this.
So taken together, all of this as we come to an end of the first month of the Trump administration is a dramatic reset in relations, there is no doubt about it. But, Brianna, this will all come to a head in a new way next week when the French president, as well as the U.K. prime minister, come here to meet with the president. They are, of course, members of the G7. They do believe there was Russian aggression -- Brianna.
KEILAR: Yeah, very good point. Jeff Zeleny, thank you.
And Nick Paton Walsh, you are there on the ground in Kyiv.
Nick, Zelenskyy praising the U.S. after his meeting with Trump's Russia Ukraine envoy trying to get this relationship back on track. What more are you learning tonight?
NICK PATON WALSH, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, I mean, very little of the public enmity we've seen between Zelenskyy and Trump on show here in Kyiv while the president's U.K. -- sorry, Ukraine and Russian envoy makes his first long awaited visit here. Keith Kellogg met with Zelenskyy today. There had been expectations they might speak together to the press afterwards. That was quashed from an American side request.
And we don't have a full readout. But we do know what Zelenskyy had to say about it. He called the meeting productive, and later, in his address to the Ukrainian people nightly, said it restored hope.
He also gave indications that they talk about prisoners of war. But importantly, clearly, for the Trump administration, they also seem to have addressed elements of this rare earth minerals deal. Zelenskyy suggesting that that's being worked on very effectively, very quickly, and at the same time that the details really do matter to make an agreement like that work.
So we hear this repeated discussion amongst the Trump administration pushing Zelenskyy to sign a deal that we understand essentially is just about repaying the United States for aid already given under the Biden administration and made at the early draft no mention at all of future assistance or security guarantees.
I should point out, too, that, you know, people in Kyiv here have been talking to around the president, some of them frankly shocked at the suggestion Zelenskyy was asleep when the U.S. treasury secretary came to visit over two weeks ago. Now, that's what President Trump said on Air Force One last night. Many videos circulating, of course, showing how Bessent, the (AUDIO GAP) the litany of mistruths that the wartime leader here, it seems, trying to undermine his stature.
Unclear what the goal is. Is he trying to get him to sign a worse version of this rare earth minerals agreement? Unclear, but it's been a phenomenally rocky 48 hours here.
The Kellogg visit potentially putting some of that back on track, but minimal show of, frankly, of friendship or detail about what that's brought out in public, Brianna.
KEILAR: All right. Nick Paton Walsh, live for us in Kyiv tonight, thank you.
And OUTFRONT now, Democratic Congressman Jason Crow of Colorado, he is a member of the Intelligence and Armed Services Committees. He's also a former army ranger who served in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Congressman Crow, tonight, we are learning that the Trump administration is pushing back on including this phrase, this key phrase, Russian aggression in a statement from the G7 that would mark the third anniversary of the war in Ukraine. Those are two words that have appeared in many G7 statements since 2022.
What message does that sent?
REP. JASON CROW (D-CO): Well, it's abhorrent, Brianna, but there's a lot of things that the Trump administration and Donald Trump himself says and does that are abhorrent. What makes this so nefarious is the message that it sends.
When the president of the United States and the administration sends messages that dictators like Vladimir Putin or Kim Jong-un and Korea can operate with impunity, or that they have a potential friend in the United States. It sends permission for people to do terrible things around the world. And they will -- you bet, they will take advantage of that permission and do things. Vladimir Putin, who has kidnapped tens of thousands of Ukrainian
children and have them in indoctrination camps, who target civilian infrastructure, who has leveled Ukrainian cities and who has said very clearly over and over again that he wants to rebuild the Russian empire, which includes lots of European countries and NATO countries. This is very dangerous stuff and Americans should be disgusted by it.
KEILAR: I wanted to ask you about something that the president's national security advisor, Mike Wallace, said today. He's someone obviously you know very well, fellow veteran, you guys came in to Congress in the same class, and he was asked if Trump thought, who was more responsible for starting the war in Ukraine, if it was Putin or Zelenskyy.
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And he sidestepped that.
This goes counter, certainly to his very clearly expressed sentiment. What did you think hearing that?
CROW: Well, I'm disappointed in that. I'm beyond disappointed, actually.
Listen, what we need is people to stand up and tell the truth, to push back, not allow Donald Trump, who sits there and acts like a child, a petulant child, you know, he lashes out on Twitter and, on X, and all these platforms every time there's some perceived grievance, every time he gets upset or he's aggrieved by somebody in his own mind.
The problem is, is when you're in the president of the United States and you're the commander in chief of our military, and you're responsible for protecting our troops and protecting Americans. You can't do that.
So we need adults in the room. We need people around him, like Mike Waltz and others, to stand up and make sure that we are erecting some guardrails to protect the American people. And I'm just going to continue to implore my Republican colleagues to stand up and be that voice, because, listen, I understand Donald Trump doesn't really care what I have to say, right? I have a long history of calling him out and pushing back.
But there are people who will listen to him and they have a unique responsibility right now to stand in the breach and to move this in a safer and better direction.
KEILAR: And, you know the White House is pressuring Ukraine to sign this rare earth minerals deal where the U.S. would get half of the revenue from Ukraine's natural resources as payback for past U.S. military aid, with no security guarantees for the future. I do wonder, though, if there were security guarantees for the future, if you thought that that might be a fair deal?
CROW: I'm actually not opposed to the idea of trying to figure out pay-fors, how to pay for continued support. You know, the era of large national security supplementals from us and many of our allies is over. The political will for that is clearly gone.
So we have to be creative and innovative here. They actually the easiest way to do it is to seize the $300 billion of frozen Russian assets that's sitting in European banks, largely in Belgium and France, seize that money. And I actually pushed the last administration, the Biden administration, to do this and be more aggressive about it.
Take that money. Let's give it to the Ukrainians. Let's put it in trust. Let's use it for rebuilding. Let's use it for rearming.
Overnight, that would make a huge difference. But there are other ways of getting it done. My problem is the Trump administration is going about this the wrong way. You don't just slap a public deal on on the table and say, take it or leave it.
Let's talk to 'em. Let's figure out what they're able to do and how we can get a better result here.
KEILAR: Yeah, we'll see what happens here in the coming days. There will be a lot of moving parts.
Congressman Crow, thanks so much for being with us.
CROW: Thank you.
KEILAR: And OUTFRONT now, Fareed Zakaria.
Fareed, you have the leaders of France and the U.K. set to meet with President Trump at the White House next week. Those are some of the moving parts I'm talking about.
And you heard Macron say he will tell Trump, quote, you can't be weak when it comes to Putin. It's a clear appeal to Trump's psychology. I wonder if you think it would work.
FAREED ZAKARIA, CNN HOST, FAREED ZAKARIA GPS: You know, sometimes that kind of thing does work. The leaders of Canada and Mexico very cleverly found a way to deal with Trump where they -- they praised him. They said that he had raised very important issues. They made the most modest token concessions in the case of Canada. They basically just did what they were doing anyway, and that worked.
But with Russia, Trump has always had this self spot, this admiration for Putin, this desire to not offend him. I mean, think about it. He's calling Vladimir -- Volodymyr Zelenskyy a dictator, while he won't call Trump -- while he won't call Putin a dictator. Sorry.
Putin is basically been running Russia for 25 years, holding sham elections, murdering his opponents, exiling the ones that he doesn't murder. So there's something going on there on the Russia side for Trump. But there's also something going on in the Ukraine side.
Remember, Ukraine was the topic of his first impeachment when he tried to withhold aid from Zelenskyy until Zelenskyy was willing to investigate Joe Biden and his son. So this is a special case, I think, and I've always felt that, you
know, Ukraine's situation is very dire because Trump has some enormous personal animus against Zelenskyy, an enormous personal admiration for Putin and for Trump, it's all personal. You know, his -- he operates from that personal space of admiration or disgust.
KEILAR: Certainly, his phone call with Zelenskyy was the linchpin of that first impeachment. You have Romania saying Russia used the talks in Riyadh to demand a withdrawal of NATO troops from the alliance's eastern flank, which the U.S. rejected.
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That's according to Antenna Three, CNN's affiliate in Romania.
Do you think that could change, though? And if it did, how catastrophic would that be, Fareed?
ZAKARIA: Well, what's striking about it is this is actually out in the open. The Russians have said this for a long time. Putin has said this for a long time, and it tells you what Russia's aims are. Russia wants a series of satellite states in its -- what it calls its near abroad.
It wants -- it essentially wants to turn a country like Ukraine into a country like Belarus. Belarus is a country that is formally independent, but really is completely under the Russian thumb. And that seems to be Putin's model of how he would resurrect the Russian empire, mostly through this kind of informal pressure.
It is worth noting that NATO has never threatened Russia. Russia is not threatened by anyone. So having NATO troops close to its border can only be worrisome if Russia has this desire for an expansive, you know, kind of neocolonial influence. NATO -- NATO is a defensive alliance. It has never attacked anyone.
The only time NATO has ever invoked the Article Five commitment was in response to the 9/11 attack on the United States, when all NATO countries decided unanimously that an attack on one was an attack on all. So the very fact that this is Putin's demand tells you something about Putin's aims.
KEILAR: Yeah, Fareed, always great to get your thoughts on this. Thank you so much.
ZAKARIA: Pleasure.
KEILAR: And don't miss "FAREED ZAKARIA GPS" on Sundays at 10:00 a.m. and 1:00 p.m. Eastern.
OUTFRONT next, one of Trump's most controversial picks now confirmed to head the FBI, someone who for years has vowed to target those who undermine Trump.
Plus, Trump now claiming he may give taxpayers 20 percent of the money that DOGE saves. But the "Shark Tank's" Kevin O'Leary doesn't think that's a good idea. Why? He'll tell us.
And doctors breaking their silence, calling out the insurance industry, which they say is complicating their jobs.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I didn't go to medical school to learn how to decipher insurance plans. I went to medical school to learn how to take care of human beings.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
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KEILAR: Tonight, Elon Musk greets the crowd at CPAC with a chainsaw. That's right. The top advisor to President Trump waving it around on stage after it was handed to him by the president of Argentina. Musk then sending this message as he faces criticism for his role in helping Trump carry out massive cuts and layoffs across the federal government.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ELON MUSK, TECH BILLIONAIRE: This is the chainsaw for bureaucracy. Chainsaw.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KEILAR: OUTFRONT now, Van Jones, Lulu Garcia-Navarro, and former Minnesota Governor Tim Pawlenty.
Lulu, to you first. It's no -- you know, sink that Elon Musk took into Twitter. But I wonder what you think about the chainsaw waving.
LULU GARCIA-NAVARRO, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: I think it's a message, obviously, to the MAGA base. It's sort of this bravado and masculinity. I think the thing that's really tough to see about this is, of course, these are real people with real jobs and real families who have served their country. And so to kind of make light of it like that is kind of awful.
And at the same time he was doing this, his ex-partner, Grimes, the singer, who is the mother of three of his children, was pleading with him on X to actually please respond to her because one of their children was having a medical emergency. And so there's this split screen here of posturing and talking about taking a chainsaw to the bureaucracy when the real human tragedy happening in his own family and in families in Washington, D.C., and across the federal workforce across this country, is unfurling.
KEILAR: Yeah. And, Governor, I wonder what you thought. He waved it around there on stage, but then he also picked it back up.
You know CPAC. You've been to CPAC. I've been to CPAC. It gets a little crazy, but this is something else, right?
TIM PAWLENTY (R), FORMER MINNESOTA GOVERNOR: Well, as we continue to fuse entertainment and news and politics into one thing, it just the bar keeps getting raised in terms of the entertainment and the theatrics. And so this is another movement in that direction.
Lulu makes some great points and we need to be empathetic towards them. But look for the folks who want federal bureaucracy dramatically reduced. They're going to like this. And so it's not going to be a net negative in terms of Trump.
You had Hulk Hogan ripping his shirt off. We sell insurance because people remember lizards, Gecko or Emu and its a symbol and politics. You know, I had people running around in my campaigns to mock my opponent in a waffle suit. It was waffle man. So that was.
(CROSSTALK)
GARCIA-NAVARRO: There's also the symbol of him raising the hand. And possibly of, you know, a salute from, the Germans in World War II. I mean, he has a lot of theatrics and symbols about him, but the symbolism is often quite, you know, aggressive, negative in this case, disturbing.
PAWLENTY: In this case, though, it's just a prop. It's a -- it's a -- it is a chainsaw that it reflects cutting, cutting government, cutting the budget. So it's a little more boisterous and raucous than normal. Yes.
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But is it out of bounds in terms of political theater? No.
KEILAR: The -- at the heart of the cuts are a lot of people. And we have been hearing gut wrenching stories, not just about their impact to their livelihoods, but also to the work that they were doing.
And, Van, I want to play something. This is Musk talking at CPAC defending the cuts.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MUSK: The actions that we're taking with the support of the president and the support of the agencies is what will save Medicare, what will save Social Security.
MODERATOR: Yeah.
(APPLAUSE)
MUSK: And -- and if it because if the country goes insolvent, if, if all -- if all the money is just spent on paying interest on debt, there's no money left for anything.
(END VIDEO CLIP) KEILAR: I do wonder, Van, what you think about, say that message as opposed to, you know, some of the insensitive things we've heard from Elon Musk, that chainsaw stuff, et cetera.
VAN JONES, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Look, there's a smart way and a dumb way to do anything. And what they're doing by, you know, the Nazi salute and the chainsaws, they want us talking about stuff that the end of the day doesn't matter. We won't even remember in a week.
Here's what's not going to be forgotten. There are veterans right now in the United States that are having a hard time seeing a doctor, because there's been so much chaos in our government. There are nurses. There are people who are trying to keep our water safe. People are trying to make sure our food is being -- there's complete chaos.
And the problem that you have is we are all trust fund babies. We didn't build this country. Our parents built this country. Our grandparents built this country. They put the laws in place. They put the roads on the ground.
And we are just squandering it by letting somebody put termites all over the pillars that hold up our society. It's so easy to say, oh, America's government is terrible. America's government sucks. You go to another country, you come back here and you can't wait to get back to see a country that is run as well as ours.
Is there waste, fraud and abuse? There is in every country. But you cut it with a scalpel. You don't cut it with a chainsaw and you cut fat.
These people are cutting fat, muscle, bone and marrow. When they say they're going to take $1 trillion out, that's going to hurt a lot of people.
And by the way, go to Congress. You are a Republican president. You have control of the House and the Senate. Go to Congress. And let's have a real process.
But you unleash somebody who's doing theatrics and abandoning his own children and having some weird fantasy in front of everybody to be popular. Just do whatever he wants to do with no oversight, that is anti-American, and it's reckless and it's wrong.
KEILAR: Lulu, I do want to talk about Kash Patel. This was another big headline today confirmed as the head of the FBI. Critics say, you know, just look at his own words. We'll show you he's going to use this to seek retribution against Trump's perceived political enemies. Patel denies that, but we see his words.
What do you think the FBI's going to look like under him?
GARCIA-NAVARRO: We'll have to see. I don't like to sort of imagine. But if we use his own words that he's written about, I mean, he wants to use the FBI as a method of vengeance. And again, why was he put in this position, loyalty to Trump, but also his willingness to do Trump's bidding. And Trump himself has said he wants retribution. And so it doesn't take too much to sort of imagine that this is what we're going to see in the FBI.
But second to this, I just want to remind everyone, you know, Christopher Wray, who was Kash Patel's predecessor, who came in under Donald Trump in the first administration, you know, he never met one on one with either Biden or Trump. And the reason he never did that was because he wanted to give this appearance of independence. He thought it was very important for the FBI to be independent.
And here we have Kash Patel, essentially a tool of Donald Trump.
KEILAR: Governor, do you have any concerns about Patel?
PAWLENTY: Well, some of his past statements, I think, came up during the hearings and they were concerning. He did say the right things during his confirmation hearing. But I think, Brianna, the bigger point is this, Donald Trump made no secret of what he was going to do relative to the FBI while he was running.
He talked openly and repeatedly about his goal of taking on reforming and reconstructing the FBI. And if it wasn't Kash Patel, it was going to be somebody else like him. And frankly, the FBI needs some work, and 40 percent of the American people, only 40 percent now think they're doing a good or excellent job. They've become embroiled in all of these political scandals on both sides, frankly. And so, you know, it's not unreasonable, especially for Republicans to step back and go, you know, this place could use a little review.
And I think that's -- was hiding in plain sight. You can't say Trump did something that he didn't campaign on. He did this in the open and he got elected president.
KEILAR: Van?
JONES: Well, I see it somewhat differently, governor, in that. Yes, president. United States can put up whatever he wants to.
[19:30:03]
He can put up Kermit the Frog. He can put up any nut he wants to.
But the advice and consent function of the United States Senate is in place, because sometimes presidents have bad judgment. Just because you say you're going to shake up a place, doesn't mean that you should put in someone who literally has no qualifications at all. And what I'm more concerned about is the American system of government being thrown in the garbage can by people who call themselves patriots.
It is not -- listen, I remember when George W. Bush tried to put his -- his personal lawyer on Supreme Court. The Republican Party said, no, thank you, sir, we're not going to do that. And -- and so, that --
PAWLENTY: Van --
JONES: That Republican Party is now gone. PAWLENTY: But, Van, you would by your comments then -- the senators
who just confirmed him, they did go through advice and consent. And you would say that those senators then somehow are derelict in their duties or didn't do their job.
JONES: Yes.
PAWLENTY: They also got elected. They also got elected. They hold election certificates and they confirmed this person.
JONES: Yeah --
PAWLENTY: So you may not like the outcome, but they did have advice and consent and he went through the process.
JONES: Well, listen --
GARCIA-NAVARRO: Don't you think, Governor --
JONES: Let me just -- let me just say --
KEILAR: Unfortunately, unfortunately, friends, we are all out of time, but certainly not out of interesting things to talk about. So I apologize for that.
But thank you guys for joining me. I really appreciate it.
JONES: Thank you.
KEILAR: And OUTFRONT next, fears that inflation is on the return has markets tumbling in the nation's biggest retailer sounding the alarm. Should we be concerned? The "Shark Tank's" Kevin O'Leary is next.
Plus, bipartisan concerns tonight about a purge of top generals at the Pentagon. Details about who could be out.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[19:35:58]
KEILAR: Tonight, stocks down as inflation returns and investors fear American consumers are tapped out. Walmart, the largest retailer in the U.S., announcing its sales will slow this year, dragging the Dow down more than 400 points.
And this comes as a new CNN poll shows 62 percent don't think president Trump is moving fast enough to rein in high prices. But the president is rejecting any of the blame.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Inflation is back. I'm only here for two and a half weeks. Think of it. Inflation is back. And they said, oh, Trump -- I had nothing to do with it.
(END VIDEO CLIP) KEILAR: OUTFRONT now, Kevin O'Leary, chairman of O'Leary Ventures and one of the sharks on the hit television show "Shark Tank", of course.
So, Kevin, Trump might not accept the blame, but this is no doubt his problem. He is the president now. So how big of a red flag is it that Walmart says their sales are going to slow this year?
KEVIN O'LEARY, "SHARK TANK" INVESTOR": Well, we've had other retailer reports. Remember at the end of earnings season, right now we get this every quarter from every retailer. One data set does not signal a recession. And so we knew the numbers were soft. But I think were getting the continuation of a soft landing here.
Part of the problem with retail prices is it also hurts when rates stay up. And were at, you know, three plus percent inflation. The target is two. The feds not cutting. There was a planned cut. It's not going to happen.
Inflation is very sticky. It's a problem. I mean the presidents only been around five weeks. These problems come from years worth of overstimulation during COVID, way too many programs, whether it was Inflation Act or Chips and Science Act or all the other ones, we pour trillions of dollars from a helicopter for free into the economy. It's going to take a while.
And so I would think for another at least 12 months, no rate cuts. And we'll wait and see what happens. But I'm not worried about a recession. The data is just one data set. Walmart's just one retailer, a big one. I agree, but it's not enough to get me to say, oh, the consumer is dead.
KEILAR: Okay, you're not sweating it. So you have said that you think Elon Musk should be more aggressive, that DOGE isn't cutting enough? What do you think of this idea that President Trump is floating to give American taxpayers 20 percent of the savings from DOGE?
O'LEARY: Well, first of all, I don't think he's cutting enough. There's this concept in private equity or in turnaround, when you find a broken company, whatever you think you should cut, you add 20 percent more to it. Then you see how the organization adjusts, and you can always hire back, but you want one big cut. And I don't think he's cutting enough. That's number one.
Number two. No, I don't like the idea of printing $5,000 checks to people. What we need to do is reduce the debt, the national debt that is paying the American people back because they're going to have to pay this debt back, whether it's during Trump's administration or the administrations ahead in years ahead. We're really in debt.
Let's use this great DOGE idea, and let's take it all and pay down the national debt. That's the greatest gift any president can give to any voter.
KEILAR: We have been reporting -- I mean, you say more cuts, but we've been reporting about the way they've been done, and you've talked about them as if maybe being a little more exact about it would be a good thing. That's not what they're doing here, right? They've had to scramble to bring back some of the federal workers that have been fired by the DOGE effort.
And this includes hundreds who were tasked with managing America's nuclear weapons. There was another who worked on the energy grid, people who work on the V.A.'s veterans crisis line, critical CDC employees, several employees who were responding to the bird flu outbreak. Those are just the ones so far that we know about one person inside a government agency calling it a, quote, indiscriminate madness.
Do you think there's a better way to be doing it that would actually bring more value to this process?
O'LEARY: No. When you're making cuts like this, massive cuts, saving billions of dollars, you can't have surgical precision.
[19:40:03]
It just doesn't work. So you're going to have as much as 15, 20 percent mistakes.
So what? You can always hire them back. You can always fix it after the fact. It's been so long since anybody's ever done.
KEILAR: How do you do that without -- without hurting people or even, you know, killing people?
O'LEARY: I'll tell you what? You're not killing people. I'll tell you what's hurting people, wasting money.
The American people are on board for this. It doesn't matter what their politics are. They're watching this waste, and they're saying themselves, why didn't we do this before?
You're never going to get it 100 percent right. There's always going to be an opportunity to criticize some cut that was too deep or the wrong person got cut.
But my point is, as long as you keep the mandate in place, keep cutting. Keep hacking. Keep slashing. This is good for government. This is good for the taxpayer. This is good reducing debt.
And once in a while you get -- you make a mistake. Yeah. You're going to get criticized. By the way, every person that's running these programs is unhappy. Of course, you're getting erased, but that's a good thing at this point.
We are so fat with waste in government that someone's got to do this. And I expect way more criticism than this. I'm amazed it's been this light. I think it's going to get a lot worse.
But so what? Charge on. Keep cutting, keep cutting, keep cutting, keep cutting. Don't listen to the detractors.
Hack. Chop cut. Keep going. KEILAR: Kevin O'Leary, thanks for bringing your perspective. We
appreciate it.
O'LEARY: You got it. Take care. Thank you.
KEILAR: OUTFRONT next, a purge at the Pentagon. The Trump administration is now looking to go after some of the country's top generals, and that has Republicans on edge.
Plus, doctors speak out about their growing frustrations with health insurance companies and how it's affecting their jobs.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The humanity that is so necessary in health care isn't there anymore.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KEILAR: It's a story you'll see first on OUTFRONT.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[19:46:13]
KEILAR: Tonight, some Republicans are worried about a coming purge at the Pentagon.
South Dakota Senator Mike Rounds saying this today.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
SEN. MIKE ROUND (R-SD): We don't want to lose the experience that keeps young men and women alive. And a number of these -- these -- these top leaders are very capable. They're qualified, and they have done a good job in keeping our young men and women arrive, particularly -- alive.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
KEILAR: At least seven top generals and admirals are believed to be on the chopping block, their firings coming at the direction of Trump Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth.
Oren Liebermann is OUTFRONT.
Oren, what more can you tell us about these senior officials who find themselves really on the chopping block here?
OREN LIEBERMANN, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Brianna, there have been rumors circulating around the Pentagon for -- for weeks, if not months, about the top military brass at the Pentagon, that Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth might be looking to cut. But those are far more concrete now.
There's a list of seven generals and admirals shared with some Republican lawmakers on the Hill that includes, effectively, a list that could potentially be terminated by Hegseth, two very big names on that list the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, General C.Q. Brown, and the chief of the Cavy, Admiral Lisa Franchetti. She is the first woman member of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.
Now, Hegseth has mentioned Brown by name in the past, effectively saying he was a woke general and should be fired. In fact, he said that right before, just days before he was named as President Donald Trump's pick to run the Pentagon.
Franchetti, he has also name-checked in his book that came out last year, saying she was a DEI hire and should also be fired.
So those are two of the seven names on the list, according to two sources familiar with the matter here. It's worth pointing out that seven of the seven names on the list shared with CNN, three of those are women here. Now, the question is, of course, when will this happen? And could the list potentially change? Will that we don't know for certain and we will. We will find out here in the next in the coming days and weeks.
It is worth pointing out that a number of Republican senators have effectively stood by General C.Q. Brown, saying he's done a good job in the few weeks he has worked under Trump and with Hegseth.
KEILAR: And, Oren, the defense secretary has also ordered the military to make some pretty drastic budget cuts. How deep are we talking?
LIEBERMANN: Eight percent budget cuts across much of the department, but crucially, not all of it. That would be 8 percent a year over the course of the next five years. This, he says, will help pay for the priorities and get money away from what he calls the effectively, the unnecessary elements or the wasteful elements within the Pentagon, including DEI, and efforts to address climate change and concerns over climate.
But it's not across the entire department. That effort is meant to save some $50 billion, which is a tremendous amount, and instead it will go towards helping to pay for 17 priorities listed in a memo from Hegseth obtained by CNN. That memo includes, of course, no surprise here, the southwest border, as well as a number of other items, including, for example, Virginia class fast attack submarines and other top priorities.
KEILAR: All right. Oren Liebermann, thank you so much for that report.
OUTFRONT next, Luigi Mangione accused of killing UnitedHealthcare CEO. His murder laying bare America's outrage towards the health care industry. And in a story you'll see first on OUTFRONT, doctors share their own experiences with insurance providers.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[19:54:17] KEILAR: Tonight, the suspect in the brutal murder of the CEO of UnitedHealthcare set to make his first court appearance of the year tomorrow. Luigi Mangione allegedly planned the assassination for months to draw attention to the health care industry. It comes as one doctor going viral, getting 13 million views after blasting the health insurance industry, including United, calling their practices, quote, out of control. And she's not the only doctor who feels that way.
Meena Duerson with a story you're seeing first on OUTFRONT.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Stay here.
MEENA DUERSON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: This is the surgery center where Dr. Elisabeth Potter operates on breast cancer patients. She's actually in surgery right now. She made a video in January talking about an incident she had with the health insurance company while she was operating on a patient.
[19:55:05]
DR. ELISABETH POTTER, SURGEON: It's 2025, and insurance just keeps getting worse. Never had this happen before.
DUERSON: In her video, which she posted to Instagram and TikTok, Dr. Potter described being in surgery when she got a message that a health insurance representative was trying to reach her about a patient who had turned out was already on the operating table.
POTTER: I scrubbed out of my case and I called UnitedHealthcare, and I was like to understand that she's asleep right now and she has breast cancer.
It's out of control. Insurance is out of control.
DUERSON: Her video has now been viewed over 13 million times across platforms, and inspired other doctors to weigh in.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is exactly what is wrong with insurance companies dictating the kind of care that patients should have.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They put in place systems that require physicians to jump through insane hoops to get obviously appropriate care for a patient.
POTTER: I didn't think that it would resonate so deeply, but once I saw the comments coming in, it just uncovered something that was already there.
DUERSON: Days after her post, UnitedHealthcare demanded she remove the video from her social media channels, accusing her of making false claims.
POTTER: What I said in that video was true.
DUERSON: What happened that day?
POTTER: I got a message that united health care had called the operating room and wanted to speak with me, and immediately my mind went to, oh wow, are they going to deny something for this patient? I looked over at my partner, another micro surgeon who's there, and I said, I think if I take this call, I might make a difference for this patient.
DUERSON: They say UnitedHealthcare did not ask or expect you to scrub out and call right away. Why call them back right away?
POTTER: No one made me. That was my choice.
I thought they might deny her. Could they stick her with a giant bill that could be financially devastating? And I have seen that the environment that I'm practicing medicine in is when an insurance company says jump, I say, how high? And that just doesn't feel good for patients.
DUERSON: UnitedHealthcare declined our request for an interview, but in a statement, a spokesperson told CNN in part it had approved the patient's surgery and overnight stay days earlier. But its medical director reached out to the hospital for clarification after the hospital submitted a separate stay request United calls erroneous and that the director had asked to speak to the nurse caring for the patient.
UnitedHealthcare emphasizes he did not ask to be transferred to the operating room department, did not ask to speak with the physician while she was in surgery, and never asked the doctor to leave surgery. United also added, most importantly, the patient received all necessary care, was not responsible for the erroneous bill and the surgery and overnight observation stay are covered by the members plan with minimal cost to the patient.
Dr. Potter's video came weeks after UnitedHealthcare CEO Brian Thompson was shot and killed. In a letter to her, the company accused her of creating a potential life and safety threat for its employees, noting some commenters on her video were invoking and seemingly praising Thompson's accused killer, Luigi Mangione.
POTTER: I would never condone violence. I'm a doctor. I take care of people. But if were going to talk about it, then what I would say is it is not my fault that united healthcare had the reputation that it had. That led people to react that way.
I did not promote those comments. But Americans are speaking out.
DUERSON: Is this unique to United?
POTTER: This is not unique to United.
There are two competing interests doctors wanting to take care of patients, and companies and industries, prioritizing financial profit that is at the heart of insurance and healthcare.
DUERSON: For Potter, who specializes in breast reconstruction for women with breast cancer.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thank you so much.
DUERSON: Insurance is an inescapable part of her conversations with patients.
POTTER: Dr. Potter, how are you? All righty. You guys.
This looks really, really good. And we already have a little air in there. Yeah. You're going to look gorgeous.
JONI MUIDER, PATIENT: Thanks. I have been far more terrified of insurance, like by a power of 100 than the cancer. The cancer itself feels to me kind of manageable. We go through and get approval.
POTTER: Is this going to be an outpatient home the same day? Are they going to stay overnight? What kind of anesthesia do we want? What materials do we need in the operating room? And insurance gets to weigh in on all of it.
DUERSON: How much of your job is this?
POTTER: A lot. I've heard before. Like, insurance shouldn't practice medicine, but they are. They are in the room, and the balance has shifted so far towards cost controlling and efficiency that it feels less like I'm able to practice the best medicine for my patients.
DUERSON: While her video about united got the most attention, Potter's frustration is with the insurance industry more broadly and shared by colleagues like fellow breast cancer surgeon, Dr. Julie Sprunt.
DR. JULIE SPRUNT, SURGEON: We have a young patient who's in her early 30s. She was so upset that her insurance wouldn't cover the wigs that she wanted to wear while she was getting chemotherapy. And I thought of how hard she has worked as a nanny to pay into insurance. It starts to feel like the humanity that is so necessary in healthcare isn't there anymore.
POTTER: I didn't go to medical school to learn how to decipher insurance plans. I went to medical school to learn how to take care of human beings. And I would assume that insurance would help facilitate that and not create obstacles.
I think there's a good place for insurance, but we've got to have a reckoning. Maybe something really good can happen. We'll see.
DUERSON: Meena Duerson, CNN, Austin, Texas.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BURNETT: Thanks, Meena.
And thank you for joining us.
"AC360" starts now.
