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Erin Burnett Outfront
China Warns U.S. It's Ready To Fight Any "Kind Of War"; GOP Rep Accuses Dem Mayors Of Having "Blood On Your Hands"; Now: Musk Meeting With Republicans Pushing For Answers On Tactics; Target Hit With Boycott Amid Fierce Blowback From DEI Supporters. Aired 7-8p ET
Aired March 05, 2025 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[19:00:35]
ERIN BURNETT, CNN HOST: OUTFRONT next:
The breaking news, China says it's ready for war, saying it will fight till the end. This as the president of the United States already starts pulling back on some tariffs in the economic war. Is Trump bark and no bite?
Plus, an ugly war of words breaking out on Capitol Hill today. One Republican telling Democratic mayors that they have, quote, blood on their hands. One of the mayors on the receiving end of that is OUTFRONT.
And Target under fire. A massive nationwide boycott starting today, after the company pulled back on some of its DEI policies and it could not come at a worse time for Target.
Let's go OUTFRONT.
And good evening. I'm Erin Burnett.
OUTFRONT tonight, the breaking news ready for war. That is the warning from China to the U.S. tonight as Trump pushes ahead with his tariffs. China's ministry of foreign affairs issuing this grave warning.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LIN JIAN, SPOKESPERSON FOR CHINA'S MINISTRY OF FOREIGN AFFAIRS (through translator): If the U.S. has ulterior motives and insists on waging a tariff war, trade war or any other kind of war, we'll fight until the end, for sure. We advise the U.S. to put away its bullying face.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: Chinese officials have been doubling down on that message. They've been very clear -- trade war, economic war or any other kind of war fight to the end.
Of course, words like that are just words until, but already, those words reflect reality in China. The Chinese people are on board. Post after post on social media like these, here's one. Let's fight. Even Zelenskyy dares confront Trump. We're not afraid at all.
Here's another. We must fight. Otherwise, we'd be extorted again and again.
Here's another. It only works when we speak the language they understand. We have been bullied for too long.
And it's not just China that's angry now. It's Canada. Today, Trump spoke on the phone with Canadian president -- Prime Minister Justin Trudeau. Trump said the call ended in what he said was a somewhat friendly manner, but he mocked Trudeau, calling him governor, right, a reference to the 51st state situation.
But in this case, words may just be words. I mean, after the call, Trump made a massive concession. He said tariffs on autos are going to be delayed another month. Tariffs on autos crucial, obviously, for the U.S. and Canada.
And perhaps that is a good thing for the economy, except that issue -- it's hard when you keep going back on your words.
When Trump said the tariffs were taking effect, there was a negative effect. I mean, the Dow dropped 650 points, 1,400 over two days. That's just the last time of tariffs. Right before that, he had said tariffs. Then he delayed them a month. So now, he said this. Now he's pulling them back.
Markets though every time Trump has announced tariffs have taken a major hit then he gets spooked. Perhaps whatever it is that's causing the pullback, then you know, they recover a bit.
So what happens a month from now when those auto tariffs are supposed to actually take effect, April 2nd. You're supposed to be seeing all these other tariffs take effect on all sorts of countries India, Brazil, you name it. It is not good for the markets. It is not good for the U.S. economy to have such whiplash.
Already, Trump has pushed the risk of recession up with his words, but also actions. There's a new model from J.P. Morgan Chase showing that the probability of an economic downturn. So this is just the odds. They have said the odds are now 31 percent of a downturn of a recession. Those odds at the end of November were 17 percent. So that's a big increase.
You could look at other estimates. They have it at 50/50 actually. If you look at it interest rates, they would show you it's a 50/50 risk.
And look at the model from the Atlanta Fed. This one has stood out. It's been getting a lot of conversation I want to show you why because you see that absolute crash at the end. That's the change in their forecast taking in all of the data that they watch. They had an economy growing, as you can see, pumping along, growing, all of a sudden, taking a massive nosedive in their projections to negative 2.8 percent.
A month ago, they were projecting growth of 3.9 percent. That is an unprecedented shift. Just look at one quarter and say you're going to go from growing nearly 3 percent to shrinking nearly four. That's stunning. And auto tariffs and the talk about that are just a piece of the pie today. Trump says he's keeping some of the other tariffs in place because Canada's efforts to reduce fentanyl trafficking are quote, not good enough.
It is important in this context when they do mention fentanyl, to point out the facts of that when it comes to Canada, because according to the U.S. government, 2/10 of 1 percent of the fentanyl that came over the U.S. border to the United States came from Canada.
[19:05:01]
So 2/10 of 1 percent is what's behind this trade war.
And that that seems absurd, right? It seems like that can't be the reason. And maybe it isn't the reason, even though it's the one they keep giving because last night, in his address to the joint session of Congress, Trump gave a different reason for the tariffs and also made a big admission.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Tariffs are about making America rich again and making America great again. And it's happening, and it will happen rather quickly. There'll be a little disturbance, but we're okay with that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: Little disturbance. I mean, what the Atlanta Fed put out, to be clear, is not a little disturbance. That would be a crisis if that's what you're looking at. And the irony, of course, now that Trump is saying a little disturbance and give me some time, is that he did give his word, stake his word and his campaign claiming that there would be no disturbance.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: Starting on day one, we will end inflation and make America affordable again, to bring down the prices of all goods.
Starting on day one of my new administration, we will end inflation and we will make America affordable again because the prices are too high.
Starting on day one, I will quickly defeat inflation.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: Day one. It is not the little disturbance that we're talking about here or the mass crisis if you're looking at some of the possible projections, if Trump keeps his word.
Jeff Zeleny is OUTFRONT at the White House.
And, Jeff, you know, talking about the president's word, right. He's been clear on what he's going to do. He's not going to back off.
But the pause in car tariffs is a significant one. It's an admission that making cars in the United States is now a cross border enterprise. That is the reality. Is it a sign that the president is wavering on his trade war?
JEFF ZELENY, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Erin, it's definitely a sign that the president is open to pressure and persuasion. And that's exactly what he got from the Big Three automakers.
In a series of phone calls to the president himself, both yesterday before the speech, I'm told. And then again this morning, and also behind the scenes with a variety of advisers, they were sounding the alarm not only about the market, but what they viewed as an as an unfair competitive advantage with European carmakers, with Asian carmakers. And the president seemed to rally to their explanation. And for at least one month is offering a reprieve.
But the bigger question overall, as these tariffs are stacking up one after another, the threats are always there. The tariffs are not always there. He does not always impose them. If these business leaders or the market also, which is a key indicator for him, is showing negative signs.
So taking it together, the White House again insists he is serious about the April 2nd tariffs. We shall see. We have to take this on a day by day and night by night, sometimes an hour by hour basis.
However, we do know tomorrow he's going to speak with the Mexican president. Of course, today he spoke with the Canadian prime minister, and the president decided to not do any other carve-outs. But the White House press secretary today told us, she said, yes, the president is open to other exemptions.
So what that basically has sent a signal to the entire Washington lobbyist community and others to try and make the case for him to have other exceptions here. So we shall see. But as we sit here right now, all the tariffs are in place except for those automakers.
And I am told that Michigan the argument specifically about Michigan because he won that state, that was the most persuasive to him of all -- Erin.
BURNETT: And important there. Obviously, those states are so reliant on autos even now. Thank you very much, Jeff Zeleny.
Jared Bernstein is with us now, chair -- he was the chair of President Biden's council of economic advisers. Lulu Garcia-Navarro here from "The New York Times", and former Republican Congressman Ken Buck.
Jared, let me start with you. President Trump, you know, has -- has said tariffs and then delayed them after the phone calls with Canada and Mexico. Then he said them again now, delaying part autos crucial piece with Canada. We'll see about Mexico for at least for the next month. Just a day after he announced the tariffs and said he wasn't going to
back down. So what do you think happened here, Jared?
JARED BERNSTEIN, FORMER CHAIR OF PRESIDENT BIDEN'S COUNCIL OF ECONOMIC ADVISERS: Yeah, I think the White House was hit hard over the head with just how unpopular these tariffs are. Very much in the spirit of your introduction, from the perspective of consumers, of the businesses themselves, the auto producers and investors.
Consumers are seeing numbers in the paper that say things like a full size SUV could be $9,000 more expensive, a pickup truck, $8,000 more expensive, an average, an average vehicle, 3,400 bucks. You know, avocados 50 cents. That's exactly the opposite, of course, of the pledges you played.
Now the businesses, again, as you correctly pointed out, are telling the White House this is an incredibly integrated North American production system. And you can't integrate it in one month. So I don't know where were going to be with this reprieve one month from now. That's obviously way too short a time to just, you know, unscramble this globalization omelet, this integration.
And then finally, investors need some certainty if they're going to deploy capital in productive ways. And when you have this kind of policy lurching, and I include today's announcement of the reprieve, you should expect that the markets even with today's uptick, the Dow is down a thousand points, more than a thousand points so far this week.
BURNETT: So, Congressman, I mean that's the question. We're in this awkward position where pulling back on some of these tariffs may be the right thing to do. The uncertainty created by the constant threat of them and their brief implementation or lack thereof, is not a good thing.
But, but -- but maybe, you know, you give your word and you say you're going to do something, and then you keep going back on your word. Your word starts to matter less. And that's a concern. Being all bark and no bite is also a concern.
I mean, how damaging is this whole situation, Congressman, to the U.S.?
KEN BUCK (R), FORMER U.S. REPRESENTATIVE: Well, I think it's part of President Trump's theater or certainly his style, to make a lot of bold claims. And then some of them he will act on, and some of them he will back off of.
I think the unintended consequences of what he's doing right now are going to hurt his overall agenda. You've got elections in Canada in the near future, and those elections are directly affected by his tariffs and his surge in in populism and in patriotism in Canada.
I get what he's trying to do with China. China has stolen intellectual property for decades. China has cheated, manipulated their currency. China is an adversary in the Pacific Rim. We need to take that very seriously.
But you get there by making sure that your allies are on board with you, not by making them mad over, what? I don't -- I can't understand the Canadian tariffs.
BURNETT: Can you, Lulu?
LULU GARCIA-NAVARRO, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: No. I hope you didn't bring me on to put you on the spot. No, no, listen, I think he has always been a big believer in tariffs. He has this very strong belief that somehow tariffs are the cudgel with which everything can be solved.
He sees that the United States has never used its economic leverage in the way that he thinks it should. And so if you the best case argument for this is that he is trying to get what he wants out of it.
But again, he negotiated in his first term a -- an agreement between Mexico and Canada and the United States, which everyone then acted on. And the big question is, why did it take him putting these tariffs on now and not having spoken to the big three automakers before he did it. I mean, to do it and then take a phone call and be persuaded that it was a bad idea.
BURNETT: By the way, he told us last night the phone calls, they loved it. They were all on board. Everything was great. I'm just pointing out that's what he said in the speech.
GARCIA-NAVARRO: Then he I'm not sure that's true. Yeah, I'm not sure that's true.
So I mean, the best case argument for this is that he feels that he gets what he wants. But the question is what does he really want? As you pointed out with Canada, fentanyl is not -- it's not a huge producer of fentanyl to this country. So what is really behind this? You know, it's a question.
And again you know we know when it hits your pocketbook Americans don't get happy. And so this I think will be unpopular.
BURNETT: Jared, as an economist, when's the last time you saw. And look things can change. These projections are fluid because the tariffs are in place and they're not in place. You know who knows?
But the -- with what -- what we were seeing with the tariffs and the Trump policies thus far, the Atlanta Fed to go from growing almost 3 percent for a quarterly growth number to shrinking almost 4 percent. I mean, I don't -- I guess maybe in the middle of COVID, would you have seen, you know, when -- when there's a giant virus coming around the world, but nobody knows how many people are going to die? Is that when you would have seen a swing like that, would you have even seen it in the summer at the fall of Lehman Brothers?
BERNSTEIN: Right. You typically need shocks of that magnitude to have that kind of a cliff dive. And that's why I would I would probably discount the Atlanta Fed's number that you showed. That had to do with a spike in imports and gold prices. So I'm not sure that's going to stick.
I think that if you look at the forecasts that I would take more seriously at this point, they've been marked down, marked down by as much as a half a point. And that's real money in this economy. And again, I'm going back to what really all four of us have been saying. It is not at all clear what the motivation is here with Canada and Mexico.
With China, I can understand it better. But when you have a proposal that is this unpopular with producers, car producers, with investors, and you've seen that in the markets and with consumers who as, as you just heard, are already and you know very well, are already stressed out about prices -- I mean, the Wall Street Journal editorialized the other day, not exactly a liberal bastion.
Is this how the Republican Party wants to help working class voters by making their purchases this much more expensive at this point in time? So I think the unpopularity really hit them today. And they -- they marched back a bit, but, you know, probably not far enough.
BURNETT: So, Congressman, I'm, you know, interesting when you look back at what Trump has said in the past, before he came into office about trade wars.
[19:15:06]
He said there were -- were, quote/unquote, trade wars I like. He said that a trade war could be his word, wonderful, right? So that there would be a situation under which this would be worth it. And here's some of his thinking about China, actually.
And this is interesting because you mentioned China. This is when I spoke with him back in 2015.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: What China is doing to us is one of the great thefts in the history of the world. We cannot continue to have U.S. trade deficit with China of almost $400 billion a year. We can't do that. That's going to end. If I'm there, that's going to end.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: So, Congressman, on this one, is this the area where he keeps his word? And to that, you know, how much stock do you put into the immediate response of the Chinese embassy, the foreign ministry today, right? Give us a war of any sort. They're making clear that they're putting an actual war on the table. Bring it on. Basically, we'll fight.
BUCK: Well, you know, they're not going to be bullied in their own media. And so they've got to make statements like that. I don't think they're talking about sending missiles our way as a result of tariffs.
But I do think that that the overall strategy is important here. If President Trump's going to be effective, he has to be effective with our European allies. He has to be effective with Mexico and Canada and dealing with China.
We can't go this alone. The America first idea of isolationism doesn't work when you're talking about international trade. We have to make sure that our actions in the Ukraine war situation, in the tariff situation with our neighbors, we have to bring countries together to -- to really deal with a very concerning adversary in China.
BURNETT: You know, Lulu, I'm just, you know, thinking when you talk about the allies, Congressman Buck's talking about you've got to keep them close. The French senator obviously seems to be very progressive, but Washington's become Nero's court with an incendiary emperor, submissive courtiers and a jester.
This is what we're hearing from -- America's hearing from its allies right now.
GARCIA-NAVARRO: We are now closer to Vladimir Putin than we are to our European allies, with which we have historically had not only actual legal agreements, security agreements, but also share a common, you know, goal of democracy and freedom. And so it is confounding, I think, for many people, what has transpired here, because at the end of the day, he is using trade wars to fight with our friends, and he's using a war of words to fight with, you know, other people who should be closer to us.
And so what will America be left with is the question. And again, why?
BURNETT: Right? Why? Why the great unknown, which I know no one in this conversation has an answer to? No one does at this point.
Thank you all three. I really appreciate seeing you.
And next, chaos in the House. A hearing with Democratic mayors turned into this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. AYANNA PRESSLEY (D-MA): I will enter into the record. This is my rights. Thank you.
REP. JAMES COMER (R-KY): No, no.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: The mayor of Denver was in that hearing, and he's our guest.
And Elon Musk on the Hill right now huddling with House Republicans. Many of them want answers about Musk's tactics. As we are learning tonight that some of Musk's DOGE staffers are making six-figure government salaries. They went from intern to six figure when they went to work for the government.
Plus, targeting target outraged customers nationwide, beginning a 40- day boycott of the company, a nod to Lent, as it rolls back some of its DEI initiatives.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[19:23:11]
BURNETT: Tonight, quote: You all have blood on your hands. Republican Congresswoman Nancy Mace confronting Democratic mayors whose cities have seen the biggest influx of migrants.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. NANCY MACE (R-SC): When an illegal alien rapes a woman, do you believe you're on the right side of history? Yes or no?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I will charge and prosecute them.
MACE: Yes or no? Okay, well, you said you would go to jail, didn't you?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I will charge and prosecute them.
MACE: Harboring illegal aliens or something.
Mayor Wu, yes or no?
MICHELLE WU, BOSTON MAYOR: No. Rape is obviously horrible.
MACE: Why are you letting rapists back out on the streets of Boston?
WU: That is not true. That is not what's happening in Boston.
MACE: Illegal --
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: That moment leading to a shouting match between Congresswoman Ayanna Pressley and Chairman James Comer after he tried to stop her from reading the titles of articles that disputed Nancy Mace's line of questioning.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COMER: Mr. Green --
PRESSLEY: I'm reclaiming my time, you do not get to --
COMER: That's what you want. No, no.
(CROSSTALK)
COMER: Mr. Pressley, I've been very -- I have been very accommodating to you.
Stop the clock.
PRESSLEY: And I take particular umbrage as a survivor of sexual violence.
COMER: Go. Go. Go.
PRESSLEY: I will answer --
COMER: Order.
PRESSLEY: -- the record. This is my rights. Thank you.
COMER: No, no.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: OUTFRONT now, the Democratic mayor of Denver, Mike Johnston.
You saw him there testifying in the hearing today in that exchange with Congresswoman Mace.
So, Mayor Johnson, just, you know, you were there all day. Did anything productive come out of the hearing?
MAYOR MIKE JOHNSTON (D), DENVER: I mean, I think we got the chance to clarify some misperceptions. I think this was not a crisis that we created or we chose. This was a humanitarian crisis that landed in our cities because there hasn't been federal immigration policy change. And so we responded to that.
I think we made clear some -- some things that are false. We do follow federal law. We right now are cooperating on the detention and pursuit of violent criminals all the time.
I think what we're not doing is we're not going to do ICE's job for them. We're not going to use our Denver police officers to chase down grandmothers out of church pews that have been in the city for 20 years.
[19:25:05]
And so I think there was some clarification about what our cities do and what they don't do, which I think was helpful.
BURNETT: All right. And I know you've talked about not using Denver police in that role before. I mean, you've been adamant about that for -- for a long time here.
You did face some tough questions from Congressman Jim Jordan. And I want to ask you about this mayor, because his questioning was about the recent release of a suspected Venezuelan gang member in Denver, shown here in this post. So ICE in Denver says that agents were forced to arrest this man in public rather than inside the jail. They said he got released on Friday, and then he assaulted the officers.
So I want to play part of your exchange with Congressman Jordan at the hearing.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. JIM JORDAN (R-OH): The ICE officers got assaulted, didn't they? JOHNSTON: I reviewed the video, sir.
JORDAN: They had to tase the guy, didn't they?
JOHNSTON: Would you like me to answer, sir?
JORDAN: No, id like you to answer. Did they tase him?
JOHNSTON: I know that there were six officers that had multiple tasers.
JORDAN: It was not safer for the ICE agents who are part of your community. No way was it safer. The safest thing to do is to say ICE. We got him in custody. Come here. We're releasing.
We held him 345 days. We can't hold him a second longer. We can't wait for you to come inside the building. We got to let him go. So you have to arrest him in the parking lot.
That is how stupid sanctuary policies are.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: I know you obviously would take issue or umbrage with the way that he presented it, but does he have a point? Does -- does that situation of what happened in that case in Denver show something that must change?
JOHNSTON: Yeah, I mean, we've had a established policy to do this. We've done it 1,226 times and never had an issue. What happens is, if we have someone in our custody that ICE wants access to, they ask for notification, we notify when they'll be released and where. We are different than some of the other cities today, in that we do actually notify ice so they can pick them up.
This is the first time I've ever been aware there's been an incident. There were six ICE officers there. The individual was unarmed. We walked him right out into a secure location. That's a parking lot that's fenced where he can be detained.
And so again, it's worked safely before I've reached out to ice. We're going to meet with them next week. If there are procedures we can adjust to make it safer. We're open to that.
But this has been a procedure that's worked for a long, long time. We've never had an issue until this week.
BURNETT: Is your relationship with ICE and Brad Homan, who's obviously running all of this, is it a good one right now? Is it productive?
JOHNSTON: They have not reached out to us. They don't notify us of actions. And so, this is the first time we've had communications. I reached out proactively when I saw the video and said, if there's something we can do, we want to make sure that it's safe for officers and for the city. We have two jails in the city. Normally all the -- all the people they
pick up are from our other facilities. So, maybe a function of them being at a new facility. But we always want to make this safe and peaceful for folks that are in the city. And we've never had an incident until now. So well look at ways to improve it.
BURNETT: I want to ask you about last night, because I'm sure you saw the moment. I don't know if you saw the entire address, but the moment at the beginning, no doubt, Mayor, even with all the prep you were doing for today, I'm sure you've seen, you know. House Republicans have moved to punish Democratic Congressman Al Green, pushing to censure him for shouting during Trump's address to Congress last night.
We saw some Democrats walk out of the speech. Some were holding signs. Is -- is -- is any of this of what we saw? Was it good? Was it useful? Did it meet the moment, in your view?
JOHNSTON: I mean, in my mind, the way we meet the moment is to show that we actually can solve the hard problems that are in front of us. I think that's what we did in Denver, 42,000 people arrived in our city. And rather than complain or point fingers at someone else, we, you know, we dug in and got to work.
And the result was a year later. You know, we've closed all eight of our migrant shelters. We've dropped our budget to support migrants by 90 percent. We don't have any encampments of migrants on the street. We've put 9,000 people to work. They're paying taxes, paying their bills.
Like this is a solvable problem if folks try to work together. We've done that in Denver. We think Congress ought to be able to do the same thing.
BURNETT: All right. Well, Mayor, I really appreciate your time. And thank you very much. Mayor Johnson from Denver, thanks.
JOHNSTON: Thanks for having me.
BURNETT: All right. And next, why are some DOGE staffers earning six figure salaries as they slash the federal government in the name of saving money? I mean, isn't that what this is all about? Time being donated and stuff like that.
And Trump's pick to lead the National Institutes of Health says he supports studying a link between vaccines and autism. Of course, that is something that has long been scientifically debunked.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[19:34:11]
BURNETT: Breaking news, Elon Musk right now is on Capitol Hill, holding a rare meeting behind closed doors with House Republicans. It comes as some Republicans have become increasingly frustrated with Musk's tactics in overhauling the federal government. The latest example were plans to cut more than 70,000 jobs, 70,000
jobs at the Department of Veterans Affairs. It is now not just members of Congress who are angry. Voters at Republican town halls are demanding answers.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I want to talk about Elon. We know that he is an unelected, unconfirmed billionaire.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are you willing to use your subpoena power to say, Trump or sorry, Musk, come in here, stand in front of Congress and answer some hard questions?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Elon Musk does have a security clearance.
CROWD: No, he does not!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: Well, you heard that response.
Manu Raju is on Capitol Hill.
So, Manu, what do you know about what's happening right now behind closed doors with Musk?
[19:35:07]
MANU RAJU, CNN CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, they've been meeting with that full House Republican conference for about 30 minutes. And if it's anything like what happened with Senate Republicans earlier today, there's a real desire among a lot of the members to just understand more about what Elon Musk is up to, to try to get an understanding of the process, to try to understand how they can reach out to him with any concerns.
Actually, Elon Musk earlier today, I'm told, gave out his personal cell phone number to some of these members so they can reach out to him directly with the concerns they're hearing from their own constituents. And also, there is a push among Republicans to have Congress have a role in these cuts.
Congress, of course, controls the purse strings to actually have a vote to do this through the legislative process. That's something that undoubtedly will come up in this meeting.
Now, there's also a desire from some Republicans, including one congressman. Dusty Johnson told me earlier today to try to make sure that this process doesn't lead to more errors.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. DUSTY JOHNSON (R-SD): He has adopted, I think, the Silicon Valley motto of move quickly and break things. Some of these things needed to be broken. Clearly, there are some things -- nobody bats a thousand.
And so I think what thoughtful people need to come together to do is figure out, all right, where do we miss the mark? How do we come back around? And how do we rebuild what really needs to be rebuilt?
I'm not upset about disruption itself. Broken systems need disruption, but we need to make sure we get it right.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
RAJU: But in light of some of these cuts, including with USAID being blocked by the courts, there is growing pressure, Erin, about trying to figure out a different way to move ahead with these Musk efforts, including giving Congress some say in this process.
So we'll see how they ultimately decide to do here. The speaker himself, Mike Johnson, was asked about whether Congress should have a role in all of this. He was noncommittal about this. He said he wanted to see what the White House decides to do.
So we'll just have to see if the White House changes his approach as well given the criticism they've gotten from Capitol Hill.
RAJU: All right, Manu, thank you very much.
I want to go to Brian Barrett now OUTFRONT, the executive editor at "Wired".
His whole team has been breaking a lot of news on Musk and DOGE. And a lot of people I know have been signing up to subscribe to your magazine as a result, because you've been doing so much.
So, Brian, Musk meeting personally right now, 30 minutes in as Manu is reporting with House Republicans giving, we understand some Republicans his personal cell phone number to be available to them. Now, you've covered him a long time. When he says, here's my phone number, call me, is that genuine?
BRIAN BARRETT, EXECUTIVER EDITOR, WIRED: Well, it's interesting. It may be, but I think what strikes me about these meetings, especially related to that, is, you know, we talk a lot about conflict of interest in the context of DOGE and the potential for it. This seems like the most extreme example among a lot of extreme examples.
If I'm a senator or a representative, and I know that there is a DOGE wrecking ball headed for my state or my district, and I know that I have the phone number of the one guy who can stop it. I'm probably going to call him, but when I do, am I going to be talking to Elon Musk, special advisor to the president, or am I going to be talking to Elon Musk, CEO of SpaceX, Tesla, X, xAI, a holder of billions of dollars worth of government contracts?
If I need to negotiate, who am I negotiating with and what am I going to have to give up? It seems like a really on its face, a tenuous situation that I think raises some concerns. BURNETT: Right. Well, that's when you get to the unelected, unvetted wearing so many hats. So let me ask you about this. This story is -- is really important and incredible. So we've obtained a draft agreement that DOGE sent Brian to the Office of Personnel Management.
It asked for money to bankroll 20 full time staff positions. So DOGE asking for money to bankroll 20 full time staff from the government shows that DOGE could end up charging the government $4 million for these because they want to pay DOGE workers some of the highest salaries of federal employees can earn. So, into the six figures.
I know you've been doing reporting on this as well. What have you uncovered?
BARRETT: Yeah, so we broke news yesterday. Kate Knibbs, a reporter at "Wired", broke this news that we identified a handful of DOGE executives who we know are making salaries ranging anywhere from $120,000 a year to $195,000 a year, which is the most you can make as a general schedule federal employee.
Sometimes they're being paid by the very agencies that they are gutting. There's an irony here. There's the fact that DOGE has already cost the U.S. government over $40 million, according to reporting by "ProPublica".
For a cost saving initiative, they're not really sparing any expense when it comes to paying the people that they're putting into these positions. These are people who could make a lot more money in the private sector. That's true, but they're not in the private sector. They're in the public sector. They should be playing by public sector rules.
And if they're asking for 4 million more, you have to wonder, when does that end? When do they stop asking for money, and when do they start demonstrating that the cuts that they're making are actually improving efficiency, instead of just sort of a slash and burn watch it all tumble kind of strategy?
[19:40:01]
BURNETT: Yeah. All right. Well, Brian, thank you very much. Appreciate it and appreciate your reporting. Thank you.
BARRETT: Thank you.
BURNETT: And next, RFK, Jr. pushing vitamin A as a treatment for measles. The deadly measles outbreak right now underway in Texas. Hawaii's governor, doctor who had blamed RFK for a different measles outbreak that killed dozens is my guest.
And customers outraged as Target pulls back on some DEI.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You don't believe in DEI. So I don't believe in giving you money. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do not shop at Target. We are boycotting them.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[19:45:12]
BURNETT: Tonight, Trump's pick to lead the National Institutes of Health under sharp questioning from Republican senator after he said he would invest more money to study the widely debunked link between vaccines and autism.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. BILL CASSIDY (R-LA): I've been told that you have said that we need to invest NIH resources at looking at the link, a possible link between measles vaccine and autism. I have not heard that directly. It's hearsay.
Any comment on that?
DR. JAY BHATTACHARYA, NIH DIRECTOR NOMINEE: As far as research on autism and -- and vaccines, I don't generally believe that there is a link. And based on my reading of the literature, but what I have seen is that there's tremendous distrust in the -- in medicine and science. So I would support an agenda of -- a broad agenda, a broad scientific agenda based on data to get an answer to that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: You say he doesn't believe it, but then he is saying he wants to get an answer to that with more data.
All right. So let's go to Governor Josh Green of Hawaii. Why? Well, because Governor Green is a medical doctor who spent an incredible amount of time as well in the field dealing with measles.
So, Governor, Trump's NIH nominee, that was Dr. Jay Bhattacharya. And he said he's convinced vaccines don't cause autism, right? So he did say that. But then very clearly opens the door to more studies on the issue.
So what does that tell you? What do you hear when you hear that answer?
GOV. JOSH GREEN (D), HAWAII: I hear them hedging. They're hedging because casting doubt, supporting misinformation campaigns does exactly what RFK Jr. and his cohort have been trying to do, which is I kind of just have enough doubt so that people pause, so that they don't go all in on vaccinations.
The easiest thing to do is to say the National Pediatric Associations have done a ton of research. They all support MMR. That's measles, mumps and rubella shots. So go get them. That will stop us from having these outbreaks. But it's the constant nibbling away at people's confidence that kills
you.
BURNETT: So HHS Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr., obviously, now pushing vitamin A as an effective measles treatment in response to that measles outbreak that we've all heard about now in West Texas, which is still growing. Here's what he said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROBERT F. KENNEDY, JR., HHS SECRETARY: They have treated most of the patients, actually, over 108 patients in the last 48 hours. And they're getting very, very good results. They report from -- budesonide, which is a steroid. It's a 30-year-old steroid. And there -- and clarithromycin and also cod liver oil, which has high levels, high concentrations of vitamin A and vitamin D.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: And he also wrote an op-ed for Fox News, Governor, in which he said, quote, studies that have -- studies have found that vitamin A can dramatically reduce measles mortality.
Obviously, you've dealt with measles on the front lines. So is that -- is that how you see it? Is vitamin A a viable treatment?
GREEN: Well, he's -- he's confusing circumstances, which is again very dangerous. For children who are severely malnourished without adequate vitamin A, this is in countries that are deeply impoverished and you see massive malnutrition, yes. You want to make sure that vitamin A is -- is in a proper range because that helps their immune system.
But chubby, otherwise healthy kids across America, in Texas, in New Mexico, that's not their problem. Their problem is low vaccination rates.
The first thing, the middle thing, the last thing that should be out of their mouths is community. Make sure your children are vaccinated against MMR.
You know, just a couple of decades ago, it was essentially eradicated, but because of misinformation and mistrust, now, you see, you know, some people are susceptible because you get vaccine rates in like 60 percent, 70 percent of people instead of 95 percent. You get the outbreak.
So once again, it's ridiculous. You should not be proposing steroids or an antibiotic that goes against the bacteria to fight a virus. That's for (AUDIO GAP) infections.
Obviously, this guy is not a physician. He doesn't really know what he's talking about. But the real problem, Erin, is it's constant misdirection and misinformation. So we need HHS to don it really.
BURNETT: But they -- so RFK has refused, at least thus far, to explicitly recommend the measles vaccine. So in that same op-ed that I just quoted from about vitamin A, he says that the decision to vaccinate is a personal one. Vaccines not only protect individual children from measles, but also contribute to community immunity.
So, so he does say the vaccines do what they do, right?
[19:50:01]
He says that. He just says the decision is a personal one, you know, as opposed to really pushing people to go ahead and do it.
Trump's NIH nominee that we just heard there, he in that testimony, he said today that the NIH should no longer push for mandates for vaccines in a pandemic. Here's what he said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BHATTACHARYA: The proper role of scientists in a pandemic is to answer basic questions that policymakers have about what the right policy should be. They're not -- our role isn't to make decisions.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: Again, what do you hear here with this response? I mean, these questions were, you know, were pretty basic in the -- you know, what they're saying. It's almost like what he's saying there, okay, answer a basic question.
That's true, right? But what's also true is that kids should get the MMR vaccine.
GREEN: That's right. He -- they have a fundamental misunderstanding of public health, which is really quite scary. Public health is about the health of all of the population. You make the best recommendations for the population.
Of course, people will ultimately make personal decisions. That goes without saying, but what you're supposed to say is what will be best for society and best for the patients. And so they should be recommending vaccines hard stop.
They're not doing it because they're not really committed to public health. They're committed to being famous with the MAHA movement. They're committed to celebrity and what they should be contributing to is the health of our children.
These are vulnerable children in Texas, 159 people now have at least been confirmed that they're going to be dying of measles because of these guys.
BURNETT: All right. Governor Green, I appreciate your time, as always. And thank you, sir.
GREEN: You bet. Thank you very much I appreciate you.
BURNETT: And next, we're going to tell you about a black megachurch leading the charge right now on what they hope will be a nationwide boycott of Target.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[19:55:56]
BURNETT: Tonight, a target on Target's back. Today, marking the first of a 40-day nationwide boycott of the company. And this is because it pulled back on several of its DEI programs. Days after Trump returned to the White House, Target announced that it was ending its pledge to increase its Black workforce by 20 percent, eliminating minority hiring goals, ending a racial justice -- racial justice, and executive committee, and stopping participation in external diversity surveys.
And some of Targets customers now are taking a stand.
Ryan Young is OUTFRONT.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
REV. JAMAL BRYANT, SENIOR PASTOR, NEW BIRTH MISSIONARY BAPTIST CHURCH: There's never a revolution without inconvenience.
RYAN YOUNG, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): They are calling it a spiritual act of resistance. Prominent Atlanta area megachurch pastor Jamal Bryant calling for at least a 40-day boycott of target during Lent.
BRYANT: It is not over in 40 days. That is a benchmark for us.
This is being driven by the church. The Montgomery bus boycott was effective not just because of its strategy, but because of its spiritual underpinning.
YOUNG: What do you want people to do?
BRYANT: We're asking people to divest from Target because they have turned their back on our community. Black people spend upwards of $12 million a day, and so we would expect some loyalty.
YOUNG: Customer visits to Target have slowed since they announced it was eliminating hiring goals for minority employees days into the Trump presidency.
BRYANT: Target made overtures to meet with me on last week, and I told them I'm only going to meet with the CEO. I need a decision maker. I don't need a photo op.
YOUNG: And Dr. Bryant is not the only pastor calling for the Target fast.
FATHER MICHAEL PFLEGER, SAINT SABINA CHURCH: If we do this strong and we come on strong and we weaken Target and flex our muscle and let these other corporations know we are going to respond.
YOUNG: In a note from targets chief equity officer, they say they are still committed to inclusivity and offers a wide range of products and services, including items from vendors that are Black and minority owned.
The company has declined to comment to CNN further about the boycott.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: FAFO stage.
YOUNG: As strong reactions by supporters continue online.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You don't believe in DEI, so I don't believe in giving you money.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do not shop at Target. We are boycotting them.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We have hit up Target's official page and they are getting torn up.
YOUNG: The CEO of one of the largest Black-owned makeup companies carried in Target says they are disappointed about Target's rollback of DEI policies.
MELISSA BUTLER, CEO, THE LIP BAR: It's a really (EXPLETIVE DELETED) situation to be in.
YOUNG: But emphasizes concerns with the realities of a long term boycott.
BUTLER: By not shopping in these stores, you are also impacting the hundreds of Black owned businesses.
YOUNG: The idea now that the pullback is going to affect that customer base, what do you think about those businesses?
BRYANT: Yeah, there are over 1,000 black vendors who have their wares in Targets across the country. We've reached out to all of them to shift their focus to online.
YOUNG: Some Target shoppers we met were supportive of the boycott.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I'm all for it.
YOUNG: Yet skeptical.
You see benefit in people standing together.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I do, but I'm not sure if this is the only vehicle to get the word out and to unite us as a country.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's where I get my prescriptions. And so no, I'm not going to do no total block on Target.
BRYANT: It is what makes America a Democratic space is that people have the space to disagree.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So this is about reforming the --
YOUNG: Bryant says he wants the show the White House they have a responsibility to all Americans, not just MAGA supporters. BRYANT: I think we're getting ready to see a revival of the civil
rights movement, much akin to what we saw in the 1960s.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
YOUNG: Erin, day one of the fast. Well have to see how the economic numbers turn out for Target, but they're already facing some significant headwinds, especially with the reduced traffic. There are people actually standing OUTFRONT of Target saying, hey, lets not shop here. This is starting to spread, especially on social media.
BURNETT: Yeah.
All right. Thank you very much.
And thanks so much, as always to all of you for being with us. We'll be back here tomorrow night.
Meantime, now it's time for "AC360".
