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Erin Burnett Outfront
Trump's "Big, Beautiful Bill" Tanks Markets, House Vote Tonight; Trump Ambushes South African President In Oval Tense Office Meeting; Target Sales Slump, Partly Blames Backlash To DEI Rollback. Aired 7-8p ET
Aired May 21, 2025 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[19:00:30]
ERIN BURNETT, CNN HOST: OUTFRONT next:
The breaking news, a major selloff on Wall Street as stocks plunge over fears about Trump's massive spending bill. A vote on that could come any minute. We are awaiting it. Right now, Republicans are not in line.
Plus, ambushed. Trump confronts South Africa's president with unfounded claims of white genocide in another extraordinary Oval Office meeting. We've got the facts tonight.
And boycotting Target. The company says sales are down in part because of a boycott over its rollbacks to DEI policies. The man who has led that movement is our guest.
Let's go OUTFRONT.
And good evening. I'm Erin Burnett.
OUTFRONT tonight, the breaking news, markets plunging because of Trump's so-called big, beautiful bill. A vote on his massive spending bill is set for tonight, still at this time. And this is moving every minute but right now, set for tonight. It could come at any moment. Trump right now though does not have the Republican votes to pass it, even as he's been twisting arms and meeting with his own party's holdouts today.
Now, many of those Republican holdouts are complaining that the bill that Trump's presidency is riding on adds too much to America's debt, nearly $4 trillion to the U.S. deficit, according to the Congressional Budget Office's formal analysis.
And that number, it's massive. I mean, you don't it's like you don't even need to be like, is it relatively massive? Is it absolutely massive? It's just big and it's too much.
And it was too much for Wall Street. The Dow slid more than 800 points today. The Nasdaq and the S&P also down sharply. And the bond market flashing major warning signs. In fact, there was an auction today where they go out and basically, you know, they say, we're going to sell some debt and then you see who's going to buy it. And that determines the interest rate.
They did that today for 20-year bonds issued by the U.S. government. It did not go well. And the interest rate that America has to pay to borrow went up across the board. So, if you look at what's called the yield or the interest rate on the 30-year treasury, up above 5 percent, the ten year also was higher.
These rates drive mortgage rates, auto loans, credit card loans, rates, all of it. And so much of this is self-inflicted by Trump because he is the one who wanted this one big, beautiful bill.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The one big, beautiful bill, as we call it.
But we're talking about the great, big, beautiful bill.
I said, why don't we just call it the great big beautiful bill?
A big, beautiful bill, as I call it. Our big, beautiful bill.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: Well, it's big and it's not so beautiful.
In a nod to Trump's wishes, the Republicans in Congress even named it, okay, this is for real. They actually named it the One Big, Beautiful Bill Act. It's like we're in kindergarten.
It is 1,116 pages long. It covers everything from tax breaks to spending cuts to enhanced border security. So, it's all in there, right? It's a spending package. But as Trump sells his big, beautiful bill, he said something quite misleading.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: I'm a fiscal hawk. I'm a bigger fiscal hawk. Theres nobody like me as a fiscal hawk.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: It's worth reminding everyone that Trump added more to the U.S. debt in his term -- first term than any president in one term in U.S. history, nearly double what Biden added. Those are facts, and they're important. When someone is going to call themselves a fiscal hawk, that's false.
But Trump and the White House are betting that if they say something, people will believe it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REPORTER: Is the president okay with this bill adding to the deficit?
KAROLINE LEAVITT, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: This bill does not add to the deficit.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: That is also false. According to the official CBO analysis, which I mentioned, Trump's bill will add $3.8 trillion to the U.S. deficit, which is nearly as much as Biden added over four years of his entire term. And doing it now in one fell swoop. And Biden, let's just be clear, added a lot to America's debt crisis. And that is why some Republicans, like the one I'm about to speak to, is saying no to Trump for now.
It used to be that the Republicans were known for fiscal responsibility, or at least that is what they said, loudly and clearly pounding the table when Democrats wanted to borrow money for their big, big spending bills in the White House.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. ELISE STEFANIK (R-NY): You talked about the historic national debt. House Republicans are committed to reining in spending.
REP. JIM JORDAN (R-OH): The problem is, of course, we're approaching 30 trillion in debt. The Democrats are spending like crazy.
REP. MIKE JOHNSON (R-LA), SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE: The greatest threat to our national security is our nation's debt.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: Well, I mean, they said it, right? They must have meant it. And certainly they did mean it when Biden was president.
The warnings are dire. And by the way, a lot of what they're saying is very fair. But now that Trump is back in office, here's what those exact same GOP leaders, the exact same ones, are saying now.
[19:05:05]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
STEFANIK: We are going to lead to deliver President Trump's one big, beautiful bill on behalf of the American people.
JORDAN: This bill is so darn conservative, so darn Republican. It does embrace core Republican principles. And that's why we should support it.
JOHNSON: This is a big thing. We cannot fail and well get it done for the American people.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: All right. Well, they said it. We're standing by for house Republicans to vote on Trump's so-called big, beautiful bill. What they have formally, in fact, called, right, the One Big, Beautiful Bill Act of 1,116 pages, a bill that's spooking the markets. And Trump's presidency is riding on this. So, what comes out of this
is crucial.
Manu Raju begins our coverage OUTFRONT tonight live on Capitol Hill.
Kristen Holmes is also with us outside the White House.
Manu, let me start with you, because as we've said, this is a moving target. Minute by minute. The vote could come at any moment.
What is the latest you're hearing now?
MANU RAJU, CNN CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, there's a group of conservative holdouts who have been meeting behind me in this room for more than an hour, trying to figure out how to move ahead with this bill. And given the fact that they had said that there should not be a vote before Memorial Day, certainly not a vote tonight, they had concerns about the deficit and said that they would. They wanted major changes to this bill.
Well, after Donald Trump's meeting with the White House, with these holdouts, and after the speaker made clear they're moving ahead with this bill, the tune has changed among some of these members. Some of them are now indicating perhaps they could move ahead with this bill.
One congressman right now, Eric Burleson, just said that they've made progress today in their discussions. He wouldn't say exactly how he would vote yet. Neither would Congressman Ralph Norman, who is also someone who initially opposed this bill, then voted present in the committee vote just on Sunday night, just indicated that perhaps he could get behind this as well.
And others who have been strongly opposed to this matter, including Congressman Keith Self of Texas, who is railing about how this bill could add an enormous amount to the national debt just moments ago, said no comment when I asked him if he was going to vote for the bill.
The calculation from the speaker and the White House is that these conservatives ultimately will fall in line, despite their concerns, and that they and the moderates they've been working on behind the scenes to get them at bay, giving them policy concessions along the way. So, the speaker and the leader in the president are confident that ultimately they'll get the votes because these conservative holdouts are meeting, they believe will fall in line -- Erin.
BURNETT: They believe they will fall in line. Of course, we'll see. And so much riding on it.
Manu, I know you may be back with us any moment here as this story develops and this vote may come. And of course, if it doesn't equally as significant.
I want to go to Kristen Holmes as we wait the news here from the White House.
So, Kristen, Trump has been meeting tonight with some of the key holdouts. What are you learning about those meetings?
KRISTEN HOLMES, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Erin, I'm actually laughing here because they had been really expressing a tempered optimism to me about the passing of this bill. And now listening to Manu and the people that he's talking to in this kind of shift in their stance, I can see why they are projecting this little bit of optimism now. They also believe that, eventually, that these hardliners will fall in line.
What I was told is that in the meeting today, a lot of it focused on politics, an explainer of why exactly certain things couldn't go into the bill, because then it couldn't pass at all. And a lot of the conversation, particularly among the lead negotiators, has focused on what happens if the bill doesn't pass, essentially painting a picture that it's actually worse for the budget, worse for the deficit, worse for debt, for debt.
If this bill doesn't pass, and that has been kind of a sticking point that the White House has been trying to hammer home again. As Manu said, they are hoping and counting on a lot of these hardliners to just fall in line.
BURNETT: All right. And we'll see what they're going to do.
All right. Kristen, thank you very much, at the White House.
We'll be back with Kristen and Manu in a few moments.
Right now, though, were joined by Republican Congressman Warren Davidson. He sits on the Financial Services Committee.
And, Congressman, I very much appreciate your time. So as all these meetings are happening, these conversations, you -- you sort of know what's going on behind the closed doors.
As it stands right now, Congressman, do you plan on voting for this bill?
REP. WARREN DAVIDSON (R-OH): I mean, if it came to the floor in the form that I've seen it most recently, I couldn't vote for it. Even -- look, the CBO score doesn't give credit for dynamic growth. I do believe in the ten-year model, you actually grow the economy and you shrink the deficit. And I think it's a good -- it's a good bill if we were going to do a ten-year plan. But, you know, even the communists only did five-year plans. Congress never sticks to a ten-year plan.
The problem is the Congress that we control, the one we're in right now, it grows the deficit. And, you know, if future congresses just follow our example, they will grow the deficit and promise that some future congress will cut spending. And that's how we're 36 trillion in debt. Everyone says, oh, well, we're going to -- we're going to raise the deficit now, but trust us in the future, it's going to get under control.
This is really the same play with a lot of other things that I really like in the bill. But I'm not going to raise the deficit on my watch. BURNETT: Well, you know, you're standing by something that obviously
a lot of people, as you point out, don't, right? It always gets easier to spend than to -- than to hold the line, even if it's borrowed money. I mean, have you spoken to President Trump at all about the bill at this point, Congressman?
DAVIDSON: I haven't had a direct conversation with President Trump. I've had lots of conversations with speaker and the leadership team, lots of colleagues and some of the some of the White House liaison people. So, they have been very engaged. They know my position and frankly, it's a zero-sum game for the speaker. I mean, he's sat in meeting after meeting.
I feel sympathetic. I mean, people have poured their heart and soul to try to move this. But, you know, President Trump highlighted it. And frankly, "The Wall Street Journal" had a great op ed over the weekend. The problem is the moderates hold us by the jugular here, and were catering to them, giving tax breaks for blue state billionaires on SALT.
And you know, this is -- this is not an accommodation. We did work it down to where people up to $500,000 are getting these tax breaks. And people in, in states like Ohio are subsidizing it. And that really hurts the score.
BURNETT: So, one of your GOP colleagues, who has been vocal about his opposition to the bill, there's been a few of you who have had, frankly, Congressman, the courage to come out and speak publicly about it. One of them is your colleague, Tom Massie, congressman. And after he spoke out, Trump talked about Mr. Massie. Here's what he said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: I don't think Thomas Massie understands government. I think he's a grandstander. Frankly, he'll probably vote. We don't even talk to him much. I think he should be voted out of office.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: I'm debating how to ask this question. I guess, first, there's -- are you concerned that you're being opposed to this bill and to adding to the deficit could draw that sort of ire from the president? And I guess the other way of asking it is, do you care if he were to come out and say something like that about you? Is this worth it to you?
DAVIDSON: Look, I love President Trump. People in my district love President Trump overwhelmingly. He won Ohio's 8th by about 2 to 1.
And you know, I love Thomas Massie. He's a good guy. I think that they have a lot of the exact same goals. The trouble is President Trump's trying to whip the votes. He knows exactly how this is working, and he wants to try to move votes.
Frankly, he wants to motivate no one else to be like Thomas Massie. He knows he's not going to move Thomas's vote. Thomas has been like a lighthouse here, pointing the direction we should be going.
But there's a reason people don't negotiate with lighthouses. They don't tend to move. I mean, I'm --
BURNETT: So, are you saying you'll move?
DAVIDSON: I mean, I'm working toward to vote yes.
BURNETT: Are you saying you'll move?
DAVIDSON: I don't know, but I want to be willing to vote. Yes, but I am not going to vote for a bill that grows the deficit. And that's the problem.
We can't control future congresses. We don't even know who's going to be in a future congress, let alone that they're going to stick to the plan.
BURNETT: So can I ask you in that context about something that I don't know if you heard the top of the show, but this is the thing that always has really bothered me, because this issue is so important of debt. What it means to our country down the line is that people say one thing when there's, you know, the other party in power, and then when their party is in power, they see it differently.
So, some of your Republican colleagues during the Biden administration, they cared a lot about the national debt and deficit. They cared a lot. And they came out and said that very clearly. Here are three of them.
Let's start with the speaker of.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOHNSON: The greatest threat to our national security is our nation's debt.
STEFANIK: House Republicans are committed to reining in spending.
JORDAN: The problem is, of course, were approaching 30 trillion in debt. The Democrats are spending like crazy.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: All three of those individuals are now supporting this bill. And, you know, I'm not going to get into debating how much it adds, but it adds to the deficit. They're all fine with it. Do you have a problem with that, that they can be have a big problem with it when its Biden and now, no problem, let's just go ahead and add trillions?
DAVIDSON: Well, you've covered politics for a while. You know how it works. Look, you could easily find three Democrats that are saying terrible things about Trump's spending levels. But when Joe Biden wanted to spend $5 trillion on Build Back Better, which was insane, they were out there shilling for it like crazy. Everyone in the House voted for it $5 trillion, and they eventually
got a $1 trillion build back better bill. And I think it's interesting that they're both, you know, alliteration on BBB. But other than that, there is a very similar, they spend money on different things, but they're both not good for the deficit.
And I think that's the thing we have to focus on. It's really a math problem.
BURNETT: All right. Well, Congressman Davidson, I appreciate that. And by the way, I had not noticed the alliteration of BBB for both. I appreciate that. Thank you for your time, sir.
DAVIDSON: Thank you.
BURNETT: All right. I want to bring in now Lulu Garcia-Navarro and Jim Bianco.
Jim, you know, when we look at the market response to this, you know, they want to hear more people like congressman, who are going to say, no, we're just -- we're just going to draw the line. We'll see. You know, he wants to get to yes. He's not right now.
But the market is speaking loud and clearly. There was something else you were watching today, which was America went out actually, and tried to sell a whole bunch of debt today. You know, like they do. They go out and what happened.
JIM BIANCO, ECONOMIC ANALYST; BIANCO RESEARCH PRESIDENT: It didn't go very well. I mean, it wasn't a disaster, but they had a hard time finding enough buyers at the price that they wanted. So, they had to raise the interest rate in order to move those bonds. And the market looked at that as a signal that if we're going to add to the deficit over the next several years and potentially get more inflation, we're going to need higher interest rates if we're going to try and sell to $2 trillion, $2.5 trillion worth of bonds every year.
BURNETT: And that, of course, is where it gets scary, because those higher interest rates affect everybody.
[19:15:08]
Lulu, when you hear the congressman come out and I mean, I know he wants to get to. Yes, but I mean, you're hearing one of the few people who's out there willing to publicly come out and say, and he likes Trump. He supports a lot of things in the bill, okay? He's not -- he's not a Never Trumper. Not at all. But he's drawing the line on this.
At the end of the day, does everybody get in line?
LULU GARCIA-NAVARRO, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: I don't want to prognosticate, but I'll say three is the number here. They can't lose three votes. That's such a narrow margin.
And if you heard him talking there, he's not upset at Trump. He's upset at the moderates because this is the real problem here that you have one group that we just heard from saying, you know, the deficit is the problem. And I don't want to be giving tax breaks to blue states. And, and, you know, liberals who are upset about, you know, their, their SALT deductions.
And you have those people who actually won the House, right, in competitive districts saying, I have to come home and bring something for these people if you want to win in two years.
So, this is -- this is always the problem with any -- Democrats and Republicans. They're always have a very, you know, wide, fractious group of people that they have to placate. But ultimately, this is a test of Donald Trump. This is the first really big thing that he's put a lot of muscle behind. This is the big, beautiful bill that he's been talking about. And, you know, if he can't push this through it's going to say something about where his administration is headed.
BURNETT: Right, right. And of course, it won't go through the Senate. I mean, there's all kinds of I mean, this is all, in a sense, very Potemkin village. I mean, the whole -- the whole thing.
All right, Jim, I wanted to put up the whiteboard because you've been watching up to the moment gauge of the other flip side of this, right? Which is the whole context of tariffs, right. And what the tariffs that Trump is doing are -- the impact they're having.
So, on inflation in the first okay -- I like this to be actually right set up where I can see staples. Okay. So, the first three weeks of May, you're watching this thing called trueflation, which is true inflation, right?
So, 0.64 percent. That's the increase that you posted on Twitter that you were watching there in prices, 0.64 percent. And I understand that that may not sound like a lot, but, Jim, if it continued over a year, you know that this would be annualized, okay, annualized, this would be inflation of 18 to 20 percent. Okay?
Now that is stunning. And I understand even if tariffs don't go lower, these price increases we saw were sudden. They might level off, right? You're not expecting a world where we're getting 18 to 20 percent, but just annualizing it puts this 6.4 percent, 6.64 percent in context, right? This is -- this is what's happening now. It is a seismic shift in the American economy.
BIANCO: Yeah, it definitely could be. Trueflation, by the way, measures millions of prices on the internet. And they watch them daily. And what we're seeing is around May 1st about 3 or 4 weeks after liberation day when all of the container ships with all the tariffs started to come into the ports, like Los Angeles, prices started to move up and they're starting to continue to move up.
Now, you're right. There's one level of tariffs. They should step higher and then level off. But they're moving up. And that is starting to show up in prices. And eventually it's going to start to show up in the inflation statistics. And that's going to be a big driver of interest rates. And that's also going to be another reason to push rates higher. BURNETT: Right, which forces this into you've got all this this
borrowing as you have this and all that interest rate going higher. We're already paying more on interest in this country, than we pay on Department of Defense than we play on Medicare. I mean, it's bad. And eventually, it's going to get to a point where it's too late. And that is what upsets me about it, because you got to have some people who have courage to do something about it.
Commerce Secretary Howard Lutnick was just speaking about the tariffs, and he said something that really surprised me. This is just a couple of moments ago. This sound just came in. Let's just play it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HOWARD LUTNICK, COMMERCE SECRETARY: The Chinese tariffs were brutal and they changed a lot of things, but they are over. They are over. And you will see all those prices go away. I would expect that prices in America will be unaffected.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: I mean, I guess fact checks, prices in America are affected. They are and the tariffs are not over.
GARCIA-NAVARRO: No. And we're a long way away from were going to bring prices down, by the way, which was the promise of President Trump when he came into office. No, of course not. I mean, they -- it was like 130 percent. They brought it down to 30 percent on China. That is not zero. And we're seeing it being affected.
And this is something that were hearing from the administration. J.D. Vance, the vice president, also said this today to one of my colleagues at the times, which is basically like, this is transitory. This isn't going to stick.
BURNETT: Right.
GARCIA-NAVARRO: Remember, President Biden and his administration tried to sell that to the American people. It did not go so well. Why? Because people look at prices. They know what they're paying out of their pocket. So they can say whatever they want, but the truth is there.
BURNETT: The truth is there, and people can experience what they see on the internet. As Jim was pointing out with whether it's trueflation or what they're experiencing every day when they go on Amazon or anywhere else.
[19:20:10]
Thank you both so very much.
And next, Trump confronting South Africa's president with false claims of white genocide.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) TRUMP: Death, death and the chopping heads off and it's so horrible over there.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: Plus, Secretary of State Marco Rubio hammered for refusing to answer the very same question that he once asked Trump's then nominee for secretary of state eight years ago, is Putin a war criminal?
And Target sales tumbling in a nationwide boycott over its decision to roll back DEI is part of the reason why. Will this boycott now expand to other companies? The man leading it is OUTFRONT.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[19:25:16]
BURNETT: New tonight, Trump confronts and attempts to humiliate the president of South Africa in an extraordinary Oval Office meeting. Trump surprising the South African leader with a video that he claimed was evidence of racial persecution of white South Africans. He then continued to list baseless claims after claims about white genocide in the country, including debunked allegations spread by white nationalists in the country.
Alex Marquardt is OUTFRONT.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
TRUMP: Turn the lights down.
ALEX MARQUARDT, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT (voice- over): An ambush in the Oval Office. Trump out of nowhere, surprising the South African president with a video montage.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Never be scared to kill.
MARQUARDT: Alleging to show incitement, persecution and murder of white South Africans.
TRUMP: These are burial sites right here. Burial sites. Over a thousand of white farmers.
MARQUARDT: The stunning video featuring that misleading claim and an opposition figure from a minority party not in the government.
President Cyril Ramaphosa gently pushed back against Trump's extraordinary attacks.
CYRIL RAMAPHOSA, SOUTH AFRICAN PRESIDENT: We have a multi-party democracy in South Africa that allows people to express themselves.
MARQUARDT: But Trump relentlessly pushed his administration's falsehoods.
TRUMP: Death. Death, horrible death.
MARQUARDT: Which have included unsubstantiated accusations of stealing white farmers land and genocide.
TRUMP: But you do allow them to take land.
RAMAPHOSA: No, no, no, no.
TRUMP: You do allow them to take land.
RAMAPHOSA: Nobody can.
TRUMP: Take the land. They kill the white farmer. And when they kill the white farmer, nothing happens to them.
RAMAPHOSA: No, there is quite --
TRUMP: Nothing happens.
RAMAPHOSA: There is criminality in our country. People who do get killed, unfortunately, through criminal activity, are not only white people. Majority of them are black people.
MARQUARDT: There's no evidence whites are killed disproportionately. And when it comes to land, more than 80 percent of South Africans are black, but they only own 4 percent of private land, while whites are just 7 percent of the population but own 72 percent of the land.
Several white members of the South African delegation, including professional golfer Ernie Els, came to their president's rescue.
ERNIE ELS, PROFESSIONAL GOLFER: We want to see things get better in our home country. That's the bottom line.
RAMAPHOSA: If there was Afrikaner farmer genocide, I can bet you, these three gentlemen would not be here, including my minister of agriculture.
MARQUARDT: Afrikaners who led the apartheid regime are white South Africans, descendants of colonialists, many of whom now claim to be targeted.
This month, a first group of 59 Afrikaners arrived at Washington's Dulles Airport, greeted personally by the deputy secretary of state.
CHRIS LANDAU, DEPUTY SECRETARY OF STATE: The president made it clear that Afrikaners in South Africa, who were the victims of unjust racial discrimination, would be welcome to come to the United States.
MARQUARDT: One of them was Charles Kleinhaus, who told the BBC he's a farmer who fled to the U.S. for safety.
CHARLES KLEINHAUS, AFRIKANER REFUGEE: If you're white, you're wrong in South Africa. I didn't come here for fun, but my children are safe.
MARQUARDT: The Afrikaners arrival coming as the Trump administration has halted all other refugee resettlement, including from places torn apart by war and devastation.
As the tension grew in the Oval Office today, Ramaphosa tried to defuse it by joking about the jet that Trump is acquiring from Qatar.
RAMAPHOSA: I'm sorry, I don't have a plane to give you.
TRUMP: I wish you did.
(LAUGHTER)
TRUMP: I'd take it. I would take it. If your country offered the United States Air Force a plane, I would take it.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MARQUARDT: Erin, this was supposed to be a visit about trade relations. And President Ramaphosa said that was more of the focus in the private meeting that followed the oval office meeting. He said that he was pleased with how things went, that a reset was needed because the relationship between the U.S. and South Africa had become contaminated.
Now, we should note Elon Musk, who was in the Oval Office in that meeting and is originally South African. He's been one of the louder voices around Trump, alleging this white genocide.
But CNN has looked at the evidence from the South African police and has found no evidence of what they're claiming -- Erin.
BURNETT: All right. Thank you very much, Alex Marquardt. It's a powerful report with the facts.
OUTFRONT now, David Frum, former speechwriter for President George W. Bush and staff writer for "The Atlantic".
So, David, you know, you watch South African president there. I mean, he was really direct and really clear and really firm, but he did it in a calm way. And -- but he didn't mince his words.
I mean, what went through your mind as you watched all that Trump's holding, holding up a piece of paper and saying, these people are the victims of genocide. The South African president just calmly saying no.
DAVID FRUM, FORMER SPEECHWRITER FOR PRESIDENT GEORGE W. BUSH: Well, it looks like we're -- maybe promoting or testing a new reality show in the White House surprised the world leader, where world leaders will come for prizes, or else they get a goat behind a curtain number three, if they are on the president's bad mood.
[19:30:12]
So, we've had bad surprises for Zelenskyy and Ramaphosa, but maybe there's a nice surprise for you. Look, seriously, I mean, I worked on these meetings. These meetings are supposed to be choreographed. There are teams of people who come and the areas of disagreement are supposed to be quite small. They are to be worked out at the highest level, and the meetings are there for a purpose.
In this case, the president just sandbagged somebody. And the United States does have some serious disagreements with South Africa. South Africa has been a leader in bringing this International Court of Justice false accusations against Israel. That's a real issue.
But on the farmers, Ramaphosa is in trouble at home from the person quoted in that video because he has been a friend to commercial farmers, many of them white.
BURNETT: Yep, yep. I mean, and that's just the numbers there. I mean, none of that. I thought even having Ernie Els there, the points that he made, you know, look at the people in the room.
You know, you also heard him make a joke there in Alex's piece about the jet that Trump has accepted from Qatar. And then in that exchange, then, you know, there's press in the room, as you can see from the, you know, the initial part. Are you? Well, no. But I mean, just so viewers know, and they have all the cameras.
So, then Trump has this very heated exchange with Peter Alexander from NBC about the jet. I want to play part of it, David.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PETER ALEXANDER, NBC REPORTER: Mr. President, the Pentagon announced that it would be accepting a Qatari jet to be used as Air Force One.
TRUMP: What are you talking about?
(CROSSTALK)
TRUMP: You know, you ought to get out of here. What does this have to do with the Qatari jet? They're giving the United States Air Force a jet, okay? And it's a great thing.
You don't have what it takes to be a reporter. You're not smart enough. You're a disgrace. No more questions from you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: You also called him a jerk.
I mean, I have to say, I worked with Peter Alexander. He is excellent. Beyond excellent. So, you know, obviously none of -- none of that stuff is true, but it's the topic of the jet that set him off, right? It's the topic of the jet, David.
FRUM: Well, it's a pain point. Look, the Constitution says the president can accept -- no official in the federal government can accept any gift from any foreign power without a vote by Congress to approve it. So that constitutional requirement has been bypassed on the say so of Trump's stooge attorney general.
But it's not enough. It's an unconstitutional act. And of course, this is a personal gift to the president. It's not a gift to the United States.
The United States will have the duty to pay to upgrade it. But after Trump's term is finished, it is following Trump to his so-called library, where it will be at Trump's personal disposal. And I assume that of his friend and his family, for whatever purposes they want.
Theres a jet in the Reagan library, but it was an antique and it was disabled, and it stays on the ground. But Trump wants you to think that this jet that he's going to take away with him will be on the ground in the library, but it will be available to him to use as an aircraft. And of course, with all the money he's getting from these meme coin gifts from other foreigners, he will have the means to operate the jet.
So, this will be his private property, his family's property run through a foundation, but their property to use, and it's a gift from a foreign government, and that flies in the face of the constitutional provision. And to the point where the president of South Africa can make a joke about how corrupt the president of the United States is.
BURNETT: Right, right. Which he did sort of a wish. I had a jet to give you. It wasn't, you know, nothing veiled about it.
David Frum, thank you so much. It is wonderful to see you.
FRUM: Thank you so much. Bye-bye.
BURENTT: And next, DEI strikes again. Target reporting its sales are suffering in part because of a nationwide boycott after they rolled back their diversity efforts. The leader of the black megachurch who's leading the boycott is responding next.
Plus, Trump seems to be -- seems to be throwing in the towel when it comes to Ukraine.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: It's not our war. It doesn't affect us. It's not our people. It's not our soldiers.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: The Ukrainian ambassador to the United States is OUTFRONT.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[19:38:36]
BURNETT: Tonight, blaming DEI. Thats what one of Americas biggest companies is doing as target reported a slump in sales, the CEO pointing fingers in part at what he called the reaction to the updates we shared on belonging in January.
Now, that statement is, according to CNBC. What the CEO is referring to was translated much more bluntly by one analyst who said, quote, target is struggling after strategic missteps on DEI, and that is because people across the country have been boycotting the retail giant since March. And this is the man leading the growing effort.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REV. JAMAL H. BRYANT, PASTOR LEADING TARGET BOYCOTT OVER DEI POLICIES: It is not because of tariffs. It is not because of the stock market. It is because of the power of Black unification and the Black dollar. $12 trillion in spending power is not anything that we should laugh at.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: That's Pastor Jamal Bryant of Atlanta, and he joins me now.
And, Pastor Bryant, I'm glad to have you back.
When we -- when we first spoke, it was when you were in the very early days of this. And now here we are. The Target CEO saying he's not satisfied with the recent performance. He attributes it in part to the, quote, updates they shared on belonging.
What's your response to that?
BRYANT: That all of this is avoidable. Brian is fully aware that the African American spending dollar has a whole lot of muscle, and his betrayal to our community has repercussions and consequences.
[19:40:03]
As a consequence, the stock has plummeted. That valuation has gone down, and even his own salary has been slashed, all because he's been dishonorable and not integrous with the black community.
BURNETT: So how long do you intend to continue this?
BRYANT: Oh, until something shifts. Weve got staying power. Weve got a model of the Montgomery bus boycott 70 years ago, went 381 days, and our community is resolved and focused and intentional that we're not going to spend our dollars where we're not honored and where we're not appreciated.
BURNETT: So other companies that have scaled back their DEI programs to varying degrees include Lowes, McDonalds, Walmart, Amazon, in some respects. So, are you -- are you looking at expanding this beyond target?
BRYANT: Oh, no. We're very clear. Over 17 companies have walked away from diversity, equity and inclusion. But we decided with resolve and intentionality that we were going to do one at a time. Target is the first. It is not the last. And another company is going to be coming on the radar in the next couple of weeks.
BURNETT: In the next couple of weeks, there'll be another one.
All right. So, I want to ask you one thing, though. When you talk about the power of the black dollar, and it is just the flip side, right, that you're showing that power when it comes to target. But there are Black entrepreneurs who are also selling at target who are negatively impacted by this as well.
A new report from the wall street journal. They went through sales of play pits, which is black owned. They said sales at target of that product have fallen about 30 percent since April. Beautiful Curly Me also attributing reduced sales to your boycott.
So, what do you say to those business owners, right, who are members of the communities that you are, you know, conducting this boycott on behalf of?
BRYANT: No, we're so mindful of them. That's why we partnered with the U.S. Black Chamber of Commerce. Over 250,000 people have signed up at targetfast.org. And when they do so, we send them a digital directory of over 150,000 Black businesses across the country.
We want to support those businesses. We just are not going to do it at target. And so well do it directly through them and through their online platforms. Additionally, over resurrection weekend, five megachurches transformed their space into mega malls, a bullseye black market. So, 100 vendors would go into those respective cities and support.
We want to see them thrive and we want to see them soar. And we're going to put our muscle and our money behind them.
BURNETT: All right. Well, Pastor Brian, I appreciate your time and thank you very much.
BRYANT: Thank you. I'm grateful.
BURNETT: All right.
And next, wait until you hear Secretary of State Marco Rubio's answer when pressed to answer a straightforward question today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This man we're negotiating with, Vladimir Putin, is he a war criminal?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: Plus, we're going to take you inside Iran, where tonight they are bracing for Israel to strike their nuclear facilities. Our Fred Pleitgen is there on the ground.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[19:47:49]
BURNETT: Breaking news, it's not our war. Those are the exact words of President Trump now distancing himself from Ukraine after his two hour call with Russian President Vladimir Putin.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: It doesn't affect us. It's not our people. It's not our soldiers, it's not our -- it's Ukraine and it's Russia.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: Russian state television was overjoyed by Trump's words.
Julia Davis from Russian Media Monitor pointed out this moment.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
VLADIMIR SOLOVYOV, RUSSIAN STATE TV HOST (through translator): A phenomenal intellectual work was performed by the two presidents.
No one wanted to be the first to hang up the phone. Trump said, Vladimir, you can pick up the phone. I will talk to you anytime, with great pleasure.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: Well, OUTFRONT now, the Ukrainian ambassador to the United States, Oksana Markarova.
And, Ambassador, I appreciate your time. It is good to see you again.
You hear the Russian state media response to Trump's call with Putin and now, President Trump just a few hours ago, saying that the war in Putin's invasion of Ukraine and the war, quote, doesn't affect us. It's not our people. It's not our soldiers.
Ambassador, what happens if the U.S. abandons the ceasefire talks? And also, the implication here, also abandons Ukraine.
OKSANA MARKAROVA, UKRAINIAN AMBASSADOR TO THE UNITED STATES: Hello, Erin, and thank you for having me.
Well, it is Putin's war, clearly. He's the one who started it in 2014 and 2022. And, you know, before going to -- what's going to be next, let's just tell people what happened today and days before today.
So just today, Russia attacked us with 76 Shahed drones in Kharkiv and Sumy region. Yesterday, 108 drones in Donetsk, Dnipropetrovsk, Sumy, and Zhytomyr region. Day before yesterday, Kharkiv, Sumy, 112 drones. On May 18th, 273 drones. On May 18th, a bus was destroyed and many people, nine people died, many injured.
So -- and I can go on and on and on just telling, sharing with people how every day Russia under Putin and his generals guidance attacks and continues this aggression.
[19:50:04]
So, we're very grateful to America for the support that we are getting. We are very grateful for the attempts and devotion to peace. And Ukraine is ready to continue these discussions, as you know. We're ready for full, unconditional ceasefire. We're ready for any type of discussions. But ultimately, yes, it's Putin's war and he's the one who has to stop it. BURNETT: So when Trump, though, says it's not our war, talking
obviously about the Americans in that case, you know, he's not alone in the context of dealing with Putin differently. I mean, we heard Secretary of State Marco Rubio today repeatedly refused to call Putin a war criminal. I know you've been so busy in meetings all day, Ambassador. I don't know if you've had a chance to hear this exchange.
So let me play this exchange on Capitol Hill with Rubio.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARCO RUBIO, SECRETARY OF STATE: I think you can look at instances that have happened there and certainly characterize them as war crimes, but our intent is to end the war.
REP. BILL KEATING (D-MA): Is he a war criminal?
RUBIO: We can't end the war without talking to Mr. Putin.
KEATING: Now, it's pretty simple. Is he a war criminal?
RUBIO: Well, that's --
KEATING: The man we're negotiating with, Vladimir Putin, is he a war criminal? That's not tough.
RUBIO: But why -- I'm trying to answer your question by telling you that we're trying to end the war here.
KEATING: Just go ahead. No equivocating.
(CROSSTALK)
KEATING: You are equivocating, sir. Just answer the question.
RUBIO: I'm answering your question. And the answer is that war crimes have been committed. No doubt. And who is responsible for that? There will be time and place for that accountability. But right now, the job is to end the war.
KEATING: So, you won't answer the question.
RUBIO: If we don't end the war, people are going to get killed.
KEATING: Reclaiming my time, sir.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: What do you say to the secretary of state? I mean, was he right to refuse in that context to call Putin a war criminal, even though he acknowledged that things like taking children forcibly from Ukraine and bringing them to Russia was a war crime?
MARKAROVA: We are working very actively with the U.S. and again with secretary of state, with other with our special envoy for Ukraine, Keith Kellogg. And as you heard the secretary saying, there is a separate process on trying to get to ceasefire and peace. And Ukraine is really committed to that. At the same time, we are defending ourselves, and Ukraine itself is conducting all the investigations of Russian war crimes.
Right now, U.S. is focused on trying to get to peace, trying to get to ceasefire. We support that. Hopefully, we will be able to push Russia together to accept that, unconditional ceasefire and real talks.
BURNETT: So, as Trump has signaled perhaps a frustration and jousting with the whole process, I'm curious what you think about Pope Leo. The Italian prime minister says, Ambassador, that Pope Leo has confirmed that he is willing to host peace talks at the Vatican. So, confirming this -- that this could happen. He's indicating he wants to do it.
Do you think this actually has a real chance to end the war? I mean, is this just a nice off from a good man or is this real -- a real offer?
MARKAROVA: Erin, we will take up on any offer. And President Zelenskyy had a great meeting with pope and His Holiness indeed suggested that he would be happy to organize and be a platform for the talks. And my president right away said that, yes, we would be ready to do that.
We worked with His Holiness on other issues before, and we would be happy to have real discussions. But again, as I said before it's up to Russians whether they will really send a delegation, whether they will show the intent, and they would want to discuss and getting to a ceasefire would be a great signal to show that they want to stop the aggression.
BURNETT: All right. Ambassador, thank you so much. Very much a your time tonight.
MARKAROVA: Thank you. Thank you, Erin.
BURNETT: And next, our Fred Pleitgen has just arrived in Iran as the country braces for possible strikes on its nuclear facilities.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[19:58:39]
BURNETT: At this hour, Iran bracing for a possible attack on its nuclear facilities. It comes after a CNN report citing U.S. intelligence, which showed that Israel was preparing for a possible strike. Fred Pleitgen is there in Tehran tonight. He just arrived.
And, Fred, tell us what you're learning now. You're on the ground. And about how officials there are viewing the threat tonight.
FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Hi there, Erin.
Well, the Iranians say that they certainly are prepared for anything. One of the things, of course, that they keep talking about is the fact they have very strong air defenses that they say can kick into action at any time.
At the same time, Iran's foreign minister, Abbas Araghchi, he warned the Israelis in the past that any strikes on Iran could lead to a wider war here in this region, and one that could be very large scale.
At the same time, ahead of that next round of talks that's due to happen in Rome this Friday, the Iranians have somewhat soured to the Trump administration and their negotiator, Steve Witkoff, the Iranians, particularly angry about remarks by Witkoff insinuating that Iran could not enrich uranium on its own soil and by itself. The Iranians are saying that that is a right that they have, and a right that they are not going to step away from.
That certainly is what the foreign minister, Abbas Araghchi, said. And also today, the Iranian parliament said the same thing as well.
At the same time, Iran's supreme leader, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, who of course, is the authority that's above anything else here in Iran. He has said that he's not confident that the talks could lead to a conclusion. And he also called on the U.S. negotiators, as he put it, to try not to talk nonsense -- Erin.
BURNETT: All right, Fred, thank you so much, Fred, as I said, live in Tehran for us at this crucial time.
Thanks so much to him. And thanks so much to all of you for being with us.
"AC360" starts now.
