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E.U., Ukraine Urge Trump Against Unilateral Deal With Putin; Zelenskyy To Visit Downing Street For Talks With Starmer; Hinton: A.I. With "Maternal Instincts" Could Save Humanity. Aired 4:30-5a ET

Aired August 14, 2025 - 04:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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STEVEN PIFER, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR TO UKRAINE: Mr. Trump has given Putin at least four deadlines in the last three months, and calling on Russia to change action, to move to find a way to end the war with Ukraine. And each time the deadlines passed, Russia's done absolutely nothing, and there have been no consequences. So I think that Mr. Putin can be forgiven for thinking that there's probably not much behind this statement.

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MJ LEE, CNN ANCHOR: Let's bring in Michael Bociurkiw, former spokesperson for the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe. He's also a senior fellow at the Atlantic Council and a global affairs analyst. He joins us live this hour from Rome.

Michael, it is great to talk to you this morning. As we wait for this Starmer-Zelenskyy meeting to begin, I want to talk to you about some of the things that President Trump appeared to signal to European leaders yesterday. According to French President Emmanuel Macron, Trump made clear that the issue of Ukrainian territory will not be negotiated by anyone but the Ukrainian president. Should Zelenskyy find that reassuring?

MICHAEL BOCIURKIW, FORMER SPOKESPERSON, OSCE: Well, let me answer this way. Being a Canadian, and we were up until recently one of America's greatest and friendliest allies, look at the way Canada has been treated, been lied to, been threatened. So if Mr. Zelenskyy is expecting anything different, I think he's living in a fantasy world.

We're dealing with Donald Trump, who basically has no national security team to -- to speak of. He's surrounded by incompetence. He does issue threats, as he did yesterday. There will be consequences, but no one really believes that.

And, you know, the other thing here, of course, is if he does set a deadline or a goal or a tariff threat with -- with his tariff baton, it's very, very difficult to -- to know whether this is being taken seriously. So why does this matter, particularly now with Mr. Putin, is because Putin is an authoritarian thug who exploits grey lines, foggy deadlines, and that's exactly what he's going to do here.

He's going to try and manipulate the heck out of Mr. Trump and continue his war in Ukraine, which, we must remind everyone, is the bloodiest war on this continent since World War II.

LEE: And Michael, you just heard there President Trump warning that there are going to be severe consequences if Putin does not end this war. Is a threat like that going to sway or intimidate Putin? And also, what are the severe consequences that might even be on the table?

BOCIURKIW: Yes, short answer, no. I think the only thing that potentially could keep Mr. Putin awake at night would be those secondary sanctions on his buddies like India, like China, Brazil, and those would be severe, severe oil tariffs.

But, you know, the problem as well is the Indians who have been threatened with 50 percent tariffs for buying Russian oil have called out the U.S. and the Europeans for being hypocrites because they too buy from Russia, especially the Europeans.

So, you know, in terms of the other consequences that may come, it's very, very difficult because I can almost assure you that the phone lines between Beijing and Moscow have been burning up. Beijing probably coaching Moscow what to say and do. And I think Mr. Putin knows he has the backing of those very big superpowers as well.

LEE: And, you know, in the lead up to Friday's summit with Putin, it's interesting. President Trump has been dropping a lot of breadcrumbs along the way for world leaders to try to interpret. But there's not been a whole lot of consistency in some ways. You know, just as one example, he said that he's going to know within the first two minutes if he can make a deal with Putin.

And then he turned around and said it's really not up to him to make a deal. So how do you see European leaders trying to make sense of this kind of whiplash from the U.S. President?

BOCIURKIW: Yes, well, whiplash is a very good term. I call Mr. Trump the contortionist-in-chief because, you know, he changes his mind a lot and policies as well. I have to defer to the comment of the former Lithuanian foreign minister, Mr. Landsbergis, who said that, yes, Mr. Trump has dropped these breadcrumbs, as you call them.

But, you know, the sad thing here, Italy and other countries have wasted a lot of time trying to butter up Mr. Trump, trying to win concessions from him, from Mr. Putin, kicking the can down the road. You know, MJ, I remember four years ago, perhaps, I was on a panel with foreign correspondents in London.

And back then, back then, journalists who covered this part of the world intensively said it's time now to put these respective European war economies on a footing so that, you know, they can divert resources to building up their arms industry in anticipation that Russia will invade Ukraine and go further into Europe. That wasn't done, and now we're paying the consequences. [04:35:19]

LEE: You know, and there's no predicting what exactly will come out of Friday's summit. But do you think one could make the case that at least so far, all of this has been kind of a win for Vladimir Putin already? You know, he is being re-invited onto the global stage by the leader of the United States, and that leader is now trying to engage him diplomatically?

BOCIURKIW: Yes, you know, I've been trying to wrap my head around that scenario of Mr. Putin landing at a U.S. Air Force base on American soil on territory that Russia used to own. It's -- it's pretty incredible. But, you know, without lifting a finger, Mr. Putin has been released from this diplomatic isolation. This is fantastic imagery for him at home and for the world stage. So he's very, very excited about this.

And the other thing, by the way, we're picking up, at least from the Italian press this morning, is that it does look like minerals, rare earth minerals, will be part of the deal to entice Mr. Putin further. Now, he's got him to come to Alaska, but there's got to be another sweetener for him to lay down in his arms.

And just a reminder that Ukraine, up until the start of the war, had about 50 percent of the world's supply of neon, the semiconductor- grade neon that goes into the building of microchip -- microchips. And guess who wants those? China. And also a lot of lithium that goes into car batteries.

So it looks like that'll be part of the mix. But so many different strands here coming into this. Really, anything could happen. But of course, we hope for the best, for long-lasting, durable peace in Ukraine with solid guarantees behind it.

LEE: All right. Michael Bociurkiw, we also wanted to note that you're the creator of the World Briefing Newsletter on Substack. Thank you so much for joining us this morning.

BOCIURKIW: Thank you.

LEE: And let's get back to Clare Sebastian at 10 Downing Street in London. Clare, we have been waiting for the arrival of the Ukrainian leader. Have you seen any movement yet?

CLARE SEBASTIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, I'm just looking to my left, MJ. We're waiting to see as and when his motorcade comes through the gates of 10 Downing Street. Nothing yet. We're expecting it to be pretty soon. And, of course, this meeting is really a follow-up meeting, capping off a frenzied week of diplomacy for President Zelenskyy ahead of this crucial meeting between President Trump and Putin in Alaska.

It follows on from a meeting, a virtual meeting between European leaders and President Trump on Wednesday, where they did seem to succeed in getting across their points of view, their red lines, essentially, when it comes to how to end the conflict in Ukraine, that a ceasefire should come first before any meaningful discussion of a settlement, that no negotiation should happen on Ukrainian territory without Ukraine at the table.

So I think these two leaders will be essentially debriefing from that, and then moving forward to the question of what happens after Alaska. What does -- what exactly does success look like in Alaska? If it goes well, how should President Zelenskyy handle the next meeting, which President Trump says could happen almost immediately, where he will meet with Vladimir Putin?

And if it doesn't go well, how then do you put pressure on Russia to -- to -- to try in a different way to bring this to a close if diplomacy fails? And I think at the back of their minds is still the question, given the sort of inconsistency and the vague references that we've seen from President Trump, the suggestions that he could still walk away from this whole process if it doesn't go well, as -- as to how Europe steps in to fill that diplomatic breach and puts its own pressure on Russia.

LEE: And, you know, throughout this conflict, Clare, Zelenskyy has really been making a hard appeal to European leaders and others across the region, just trying to reinforce this idea that the Ukrainians need as much help as they can possibly get. I wonder if there's any context to the Starmer-Zelenskyy relationship that we should know.

SEBASTIAN: Yes. So they have what appears to be a very close alliance. Keir Starmer, the British prime minister, he's, you know, one of a number of British prime ministers, frankly, who Zelenskyy has had to deal with during this war. But he has really positioned himself as a leader within Europe, taking on things like the coalition of the willing.

He's even suggested that Britain would be willing to put troops on the ground in Ukraine as part of future security guarantees. And President Zelenskyy has been here a number of times throughout the conflict. This was the site of his second visit outside of Ukraine in 2023.

[04:39:59]

I think we can see the gates are opening now to let the cars in. So we think that President Zelenskyy may be arriving, but he should face a very warm reception here at 10 Downing Street. Keir Starmer, you know, has been someone who has been able to thread the needle, really, between Zelenskyy and President Trump.

He has a strong relationship with President Trump. He's got a state visit coming up here in around a month's time, but has still maintained very close ties with the Ukrainian leader, as I said, through the provision of military aid and diplomatic support in multiple different ways. The gates are now open, I can tell you, MJ.

So we think that the car should be about to arrive now. Yes, we can see the -- the outriders and the motorcade coming in now, those blue flashing lights. So we wait to see President Zelenskyy come out and go into 10 Downing Street, where they have already rolled out the red carpet. LEE: And Clare, as we're watching this motorcade roll in, do you have a sense of just how the next hour or two will unfold? Just in terms of a TikTok, will we see the two leaders addressing the media together? Any expectations?

SEBASTIAN: So we -- we haven't been told anything really about the substance of the talks. We can only assume, as I said, that it's a follow-up on yesterday's meeting and discussion of the -- of the steps ahead. We don't know. There is President Zelenskyy coming in to 10 Downing Street behind me. The door has opened. The British prime minister coming out.

But we don't know if they will speak to the media afterwards. I'll let you just take a look at this greeting.

So there you have it, MJ. They did not engage with any questions. A very warm handshake, though. A very serious President Zelenskyy. This is, of course, as we've said it before, but I think it particularly applies this week ahead of the first direct talks between a U.S. president and a Russian president in four years, since before the beginning of this war. This is an absolutely critical moment for Ukraine.

LEE: All right, Clare Sebastian at 10 Downing in London. Thank you so much. We'll keep checking back in with you.

And still to come, the world's biggest pop star takes over one of the biggest sports podcasts. The reason behind Taylor Swift's surprise appearance, just ahead.

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[04:47:22]

LEE: Air Canada says it's anticipating that flight cancellations will start today as it winds down operations ahead of a strike. Canada's largest airline is bracing for a strike this weekend and says it will lock out flight attendants who voted to strike. The company plans to suspend operations on Saturday and could remain shutdown until a deal is reached.

YouTube will soon broaden its use of artificial intelligence to prevent kids from accessing adult content online by guessing users' age. If the tool identifies you as a minor, YouTube will automatically restrict sensitive content, such as violent or sexually suggestive videos. And if A.I. guesses wrong, you will have to upload a government I.D., credit card or a selfie to prove your age. Some users are worried about having to hand over their private information and also that kids could get around the tool by using YouTube without logging into an account.

The best way to prevent A.I. from ever turning against its human creators could come down to instilling a basic human feeling. That's what the so-called father of A.I., Geoffrey Hinton, told an industry conference in Las Vegas. He says the technology will become smarter than people and that the tech industry's current efforts to keep A.I. submissive is not going to work. His solution? Build maternal instincts into A.I. models so that they care about people and have a sense of compassion. CNN tech reporter Clare Duffy has more.

CLARE DUFFY, CNN TECH REPORTER: An alarming warning from one of the original and leading voices in the A.I. space. You'll remember that Geoffrey Hinton has been warning about some of these existential risks that he sees from A.I. since he decided to leave his job at Google two years ago.

But now he's sort of taking shots at what he calls the tech bros that are leading A.I. companies right now, saying they are taking the wrong approach to A.I. safety by trying to ensure that humans remain dominant over A.I. systems. Instead, in his mind, as or if I should say, A.I. becomes smarter than humans, which many people think that it will, he worries that it will be able to manipulate us and prioritize its own interests and ability to function over humans' needs.

Instead, he thinks that humans need to be training A.I. systems to be more like our mothers, to prioritize our well-being, even when they are smarter and more powerful than us. Let's take a quick listen to some of the comments that he made at this A.I. conference in Las Vegas on Tuesday.

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GEOFFREY HINTON, "GODFATHER OF A.I.": I think people have been looking at this all wrong. So people have been saying, because they're tech bros, they've been saying, we have to stay in control of these A.I.s. We've somehow got to be stronger than them. We've got to be dominant, and they've got to be submissive.

[04:50:08]

That's not going to work. They're going to be much smarter than us. They're going to have all sorts of ways of getting around that. So we need to reframe this problem. It's not that we have to be stronger than them and stay in control of them. We have to make it so that when they're more powerful than us and smarter than us, they still care about us.

So the right model is the only model we have of a more intelligent thing being controlled by a less intelligent thing, which is a mother being controlled by her baby.

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DUFFY: Now, he doesn't necessarily make clear how he thinks these tech companies should be training A.I. systems to have that maternal instinct. And I do think it's worth noting that there are leaders in the A.I. space who disagree with Hinton about how much of an existential risk A.I. truly poses to humans.

Certainly, at this point, A.I. systems continue to get sort of basic tasks wrong. So it's still rather hard to think about them being that much smarter, that much more powerful than humans, but certainly a stark warning from one of the most prominent voices in this space. Back to you.

LEE: If having 35 Grammys wasn't enough, Beyonce can now add an Emmy to her list of awards. The music star won her first Emmy for the Beyonce Bowl halftime show performed during a Christmas Day NFL game that aired on Netflix. Her team took home the award for outstanding costumes for a variety nonfiction or reality show. And with this Emmy win, she's now halfway to the coveted EGOT status, which one can achieve by earning an Emmy, a Grammy, an Oscar and a Tony Award.

And pop superstar Taylor Swift took over the New Heights podcast on Wednesday to give new details on her upcoming 12th studio album. Swift's boyfriend, Kansas City Chiefs tight end Travis Kelce, hosts this show along with his brother, former Philadelphia Eagles center, Jason Kelce.

CNN's Elizabeth Wagmeister breaks down what the singer revealed about her latest project.

ELIZABETH WAGMEISTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It's the moment that the world was waiting for and over 1.3 million people tuned in live on YouTube to watch Taylor Swift on her boyfriend, Travis Kelce, and his brother, Jason Kelce's podcast. Now the podcast comes as Taylor announced her 12th studio album, "The Life of a Showgirl," and she made some big announcements.

She revealed that the album will be released on October 3rd. She also revealed the producers behind the album, and these are two producers who she previously worked with, and they are credited with helping her transition from country music to pop music, which means we are in store for a pop album from Taylor Swift.

Now this was a big deal for the relationship between these two superstars from the entertainment world and the sports world because it's the first time that we've seen them in conversation. So we got a little glimpse into their relationship and how it all started. You may remember that Travis had previously said on his podcast that he wanted to shoot his shot to get Taylor. Take a look.

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TAYLOR SWIFT, MUSICIAN: I'm just circling back to new heights to say thank you for -- for this.

TRAVIS KELCE, TAYLOR SWIFT'S BOYFRIEND: Yes.

SWIFT: Look at this.

T. KELCE: I'm the luckiest man in the world.

JASON KELCE, HOST, "NEW HEIGHTS": How did you know he wasn't crazy? Because that's the other side of that, right? Like, a guy goes up there and professes his love for you. It's either one, it's like, this could be the most romantic thing in the world. It can also be like this is --

SWIFT: He is crazy, Jason. J. KELCE: But there's a -- there's a right crazy.

SWIFT: Yes. He's the good kind of crazy. And I -- I knew that he wasn't crazy the first couple of times that we talked. I was just like, he's -- he's truly like -- he's truly getting to know me in a way that's very natural, very pure, very normal. Like, also, like, just the way that he could make me laugh so immediately about normal things.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WAGMEISTER: Now Taylor also got incredibly emotional as she talked about buying back her music catalog. You remember that earlier this summer, the superstar had made the announcement that she now owns all of the rights to all of her music after a very contentious battle over the ownership of her music.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SWIFT: I get a call from my mom and she's like, she's like, we -- we -- that -- you got your music.

J. KELCE: Yes.

SWIFT: And so sorry that this is, it's literally been so long since this happened. It's every time I talk about it. She's like, you got -- you got your music. And I just like, very dramatically hit the floor for real, like, honestly, just started --

T. KELCE: It's been a long time coming.

SWIFT: -- bawling my eyes out. And I knock on the door, he's playing video games. And I'm trying to say it in a normal way. And I'm just like, Travis.

T. KELCE: Oh, no. What just happened? What just happened.

[04:55:00]

SWIFT: And he's like, he like, put his headset down. He's like, guys got to go. And I think you got something was wrong. And you come up and I'm just like, I got my music back. And then just start absolutely seething --

T. KELCE: Just dead weight, just dead weight.

SWIFT: Dropped.

T. KELCE: It's like all control.

SWIFT: Had no power in my life to support myself. And yes, this changed my life.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WAGMEISTER: Taylor also revealed that there are going to be 12 songs on her 12th studio album, including a collaboration with fellow pop star and her friend, Sabrina Carpenter. As always, it is Taylor's world and we are just living in it. Back to you.

LEE: And thank you so much for joining us here on Early Start. I'm MJ Lee in New York. And I'll be right back after a quick break.

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