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First Move with Julia Chatterley
Debt Agreement Faces Major Test in the House Tuesday; Theranos Founder Elizabeth Holmes Must Report to Prison Today; Human Rights Group: Iran Resumes Executing Protesters; Wang: Enterprises Need to know how to use their Own Data; China's Shenzou-16 Docks with Space Station; Nvidia Hits $1T Market Valuation. Aired 9-10a ET
Aired May 30, 2023 - 09:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[09:00:00]
JULIA CHATTERLEY, CNN HOST: A warm welcome to "First Move", as always fantastic to have you with us for another terrific Tuesday on the program
and lots to get to today including a drone duel. Moscow hit with a wave of surprise drone attacks, damaging buildings and causing injuries on the
ground.
Ukraine not claiming responsibility but predicting more strikes against Russia soon, this as Russia launches its 17th day of strikes against Kyiv
this month. Plus, China charge Beijing launching its first civilian astronaut into space. A successful rendezvous with the Chinese Space
Station as the superpower race to the stars heats up.
We'll be discussing China's space ambitions later in the show. Also, a delicious day a key legislative test in the U.S. House Tuesday on the newly
inked debt ceiling agreement, perhaps some tense hours ahead to for President Biden and Speaker McCarthy as they try and shore up votes a live
report from D.C. just ahead.
And in the meantime, U.S. investors back after the long weekend holiday and the reaction as you can see, I think to that deal, mostly positive, the
NASDAQ could be outperforming up more than 1.3 percent pre market. Certainly a more cautious feel, I think across Europe, though, as you can
see the German market outperforming the FOOTSIE pulling back after the bank holiday weekend there too.
But advertising firm WPP a winner. We share spiking on news of an artificial intelligence deal with chipmaker Nvidia and there's that
professional record high today too as it closes in on a $1 trillion market cap just as it CEO unveils a suite of new AI tied products over in Taipei
and China welcoming its share of international VIPs this week too.
Elon Musk arriving in Beijing and meeting with the Chinese Foreign Minister, the Tesla and Twitter CEO saying now is not the time for a U.S.-
China Economic decoupling, which has been a key Beijing talking point too. JPMorgan CEO Jamie Dimon also set to speak at that Chinese summit tomorrow.
And it may be a warm welcome for the business community but Beijing they have more cautious on the political side. The Pentagon saying China
rejected a request for their respective Defense Ministers to meet in Singapore this week. Lots to get to you today as you can tell, as always.
But we do begin today with those drone strikes in Russia, leaving at least two people injured and causing damage as I mentioned two buildings in
Moscow, Russia, blaming Ukraine for the attacks Kyiv again denying direct involvement. It follows news of those further waves of drone strikes on the
Ukrainian Capital once again too. Fred Pleitgen has the details.
FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: It was a pretty tough night here for the citizens of the Ukrainian capital Kyiv for several
hours. We had showerheads drones flying overhead, while at the same time, Ukrainian air defenses were frantically trying to shoot them down. I met
one of the places that sustained some pretty heavy damage.
If we look over here, we can see that there's still a lot of debris lying around in front of this house. And if we pan up, you can see that the top
floors of this building have been substantially damaged. And this is also the place where the authorities here in Kyiv say a 33 year old woman was
killed while she was inside her apartments.
Now, at the same time, the authorities here in Ukraine are saying they believe that their air defenses were actually once again, very effective.
They say they managed to shoot down most of the showerhead drones. And also, the hit that happened on this building here was apparently a drone
that was shot down.
And then fragments, obviously including the warhead hit this very building. At the same time, we do have that situation that unfolded in the early
morning hours in the Russian capital of Moscow where the first step for the first time since the war in Ukraine began. They were attacked they say by
drones, they blame the Ukrainians.
The Ukrainians are saying that it wasn't then, however, the Russian Military saying they managed to take down all of those drones eight in
total, they say three by electronic countermeasures, essentially bringing them off course. But they also said that they had to activate their own air
defense systems and use missiles to shoot down five of those drones. Fred Pleitgen CNN, Kyiv.
CHATTERLEY: And to the debt ceiling debate now and ahead of a crucial U.S. House vote on Wednesday. The first hurdle comes today. The bill was clear
the Republican controlled House Rules Committee and one committee member isn't so happy.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. CHIP ROY (R-TX): I'm going to be making that loud and clear to my Republican colleagues that this is not a deal that we should be taking. The
whole point of the rules committee was to say that we were going to have a power sharing where we had a representation of the entire conference. And
I'm not thrilled with this bill right now.
[09:05:00]
So I'm not going into the rules can -- there a positive view towards this bill.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CHATTERLEY: Chip Roy there, is just one of two Republicans on the committee who have voiced concerns about the deal. Arlette Saenz is at the White
House with the latest for us. Arlette, personal opinions are allowed and expected. But is this deal also expected to pass because it's clearly this
will default?
ARLETTE SAENZ, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Julia right now one of the key challenges for both President Biden and House Speaker Kevin
McCarthy is getting their respective parties in line. And you have heard the conservative wing of the Republican Party and then progressives in the
Democratic Party have voiced their frustration and skepticism about this bill.
Now, as you mentioned, this agreement will face a key hurdle today as the House Rules Committee is set to consider the agreement and as you noted,
two met Republican members on that committee have voiced their opposition. Now, it is important to note that they need at least seven members of the
Republican Party to vote forward on this rule in order to make it out of committee.
So they cannot afford any defections from GOP lawmakers. But that is really one of the key tests that this agreement is facing as House Speaker Kevin
McCarthy is pushing towards a vote tomorrow in the house. But while you have conservative members of the Republican Party saying that this bill
does not cut spending enough.
You are also hearing very palpable frustration from progressive Democrats who are specifically frustrated with the inclusion and toughening of a work
requirement for some recipients of food stamps. Now, President Biden has said he feels very good about the prospects of this bill, but he has
acknowledged to reporters that he doesn't know if he can get progressives on board.
Behind the scenes, the White House has engaged in lobbying with Democrats, with both senior staff at the White House and President Biden himself
calling lawmakers to try to get them on board with this proposal. But even as some progressives are not yet committing to supporting the bill, the
White House did get a boost.
When there is a coalition, the New Democrats Coalition, which is comprised of about 100, moderate Democrats, the leadership of that group came out and
said that they do endorse this agreement. So that is some welcome news for the White House as they are trying to get enough support to get this over
the finish line.
Now Republicans believe that they could be pushing towards 150 Republican votes, which would be more than half of the Republicans in the House. So
there are some contours of what this vote could look like. But there are still some very serious hurdles ahead as they're trying to get this all
passed in the House and the Senate by June 5.
CHATTERLEY: Yes, fascinating, isn't it? I wonder how many of them will have actually read this bill in its entirety? Arlette Saenz, great to have you
thank you.
SAENZ: Thank you.
CHATTERLEY: OK, now to the latest superpower to join this space racy Chinese spacecraft has successfully docked with their Tiangong space
station. The name actually means Heavenly Palace in Chinese. And now three astronauts will stay there for around five months.
The crew includes China's first civilian astronaut too, a professor of Aeronautics and Astronautics. Will Ripley joins me now look realized that
it today rather than making you say it, they've called it a huge success, what image --
WILL RIPLEY, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: -- pronunciation --
CHATTERLEY: Did my best. What images have we seen, and, of course, the changeover of the astronauts too.
RIPLEY: Well, it's really extraordinary. And you can see why Chinese, you know, by the millions were glued to their televisions and their screens
today watching. As you know, the six astronauts came together on China's space station, which is expected to be in low Earth orbit, for at least a
decade to come could potentially outlast the International Space Station in terms of its time in space.
And so China really sending a very strong message here to the world and to their own people that they are in space, and they're in space to stay and
of course, this is just the first step for China, they want to go to the moon, eventually they want to go to Mars. And what makes this mission very
unique.
You know is that this is the first time as you mentioned that there's a civilian on onboard, people on training social media. Yes, they were, of
course, you know, talking about the fact that this Professor at Beihang University, the prestigious Aeronautics and Astronautics University, you
know who pursued his postdoctoral studies in Canada is going to be on board, he's going to be conducting experiments operating the payloads.
But what people were most fascinated by, Julia, is the fact that he wears glasses. And previously it was believed it was the policy in China that the
astronauts who are all members of the People's Liberation Army up until now had to have perfect vision and now, China saying that because their space
program is growing and branching out.
That they can have civilians and even civilians who need to wear glasses which are similar by the way to NASA in the U.S. It just goes to show the
rapid advancement here that now China will have a permanent manned presence in space.
[09:10:00]
They're bringing onboard civilians people from different backgrounds and even people who have to wear spectacles and it certainly is going to be
quite something to watch this space race, Julia, as it develops, because, you know, the U.S., of course, they want to go to Mars, they want to go to
the moon China wants the same.
And the U.S. and China haven't been working together in space for more than 10 years, because the United States raised concerns and actually had China
banned from the International Space Station, because they were afraid that China was using shared technology and information to grow their
intercontinental ballistic missile program.
But now you have China doing it on own and doing it very quickly. I mean, it's really remarkable the progress and the quick progress that China has
made.
CHATTERLEY: I mean -- in there. I love the point that particularly for children, perhaps those that do wear glasses, and obviously some will do it
very elegantly, that it's not seen as something that they can't achieve or dream of in the future, if that's what they want to do, simply because they
wear glasses.
So I do love that idea. But to your point about the competition, and the sharpening competition, I think that other nations, the United States, the
European see with China, particularly at the moment over tensions about technology, I sort of wonder whether we're seeing the path being laid or if
not already been laid for the next sort of technological battleground space and lower Earth orbit.
RIPLEY: While and we've talked a lot about this, and about how this lower Earth orbit is really a priority of the Chinese President Xi Jinping.
Remember, there was that big spy balloon fiasco where the Chinese spy balloon was operating, you know, in low altitude in the stratosphere,
essentially.
Now, this space station, obviously, is just above that. But having the ability to operate in this realm of either, you know, low earth orbit, or
just below what's considered to be space in the stratosphere, it is a new battleground, it is a battleground militarily and it's a battleground
technologically.
And so focusing on, you know, technology that they're going to be testing on their space station, certainly there are going to be civilian uses, and
also military uses as well. So for those who are concerned about China's ability to weaponize space, well, guess what China's there, and they're
learning very, very quickly.
Now, of course, the United States, Russia, still decades ahead of China, in many areas, but I have to say, Julia, you know, China's ticking off the
list of achievements. And they're doing it faster than I think a lot of experts predicted, despite being essentially barred by the U.S. from this
international collaboration into the International Space Station and all of the technological developments that have come out of that, both civilian
and frankly, military as well.
CHATTERLEY: Yes, that going alone. Will, that is the perfect tease for a conversation that we're going to have later on in the show all about this
and just how far China is behind -- they're accelerating.
RIPLEY: You're welcome.
CHATTERLEY: Thank you for that again. Great to have you on thank you. Now, not to be outdone, North Korea also planning a space launch the government
in Pyongyang says it will send its first military spy satellite into orbit in the next few days. According to officials in Japan, North Korea will be
using its long range missile technology banned by U.N. resolutions.
Both Japan and South Korea warning Kim Jong-Un not to carry out the satellite launch. And the prison cell awaits the woman behind the
multimillion dollar scheme to defraud investors. Elizabeth Holmes was the public face of the health tech startup Theranos.
Today she is expected to surrender to a federal facility in Texas. In November a judge sentenced her to more than 11 years behind bars for fraud
and for conspiracy. Holmes raised nearly a billion dollars from investors by making false claims about the company's blood testing technology.
CNN's Rosa Flores joins us now live from Texas. Rosa I think many of our viewers will remember because we talked about this company and the downfall
of this company she was compared to Steve Jobs, how much of these 11 years to expect her to serve on what more can you tell us?
ROSA FLORES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: What I can tell you this morning is that according to the court order, she's expected to turn herself into the
facility that you see behind me before 2 pm local time today. Now, I don't know if she has read the inmate handbook. But all 82 pages are available
online and it's those rules and regulations that she'll have to live by for the next 11 years.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ELIZABETH HOLMES, CEO OF THERANOS: I believe the individual is the answer to the challenges of healthcare.
FLORES (voice over): Elizabeth Holmes, the disgraced founder of Theranos is set to trade in her trademark black turtlenecks for a prison jumpsuit after
multiple failed appeals to keep her out of prison. Holmes, now a mother of two is set to report to the federal prison camp in Bryan Texas today.
[09:15:00]
The minimum security women's prison is approximately 100 miles from Houston, Texas and houses more than 600 inmates, according to the Federal
Bureau of Prisons.
HOLMES: The rate to protect the health and well-being of every person of those we love is a basic human right.
FLORES (voice over): Holmes was only 19 years old when she dropped out of Stanford University to pursue her startup Theranos full time, once valued
at $9 billion. At its peak, Theranos attracted an impressive list of investors and retail partners with claims that it had developed technology
to test for a wide range of medical conditions using just a few drops of blood.
HOLMES: So this is the little tubes that we collect the samples in. We call them the Nanotainer, they're about this big.
FLORES (voice over): Holmes, appearing on magazine covers, and was hailed as the Next Steve Jobs.
HOLMES: I've always believed that the purpose of building a business is to make an impact in the world.
FLORES (voice over): The company began to unravel after a Wall Street Journal investigation in 2015 reported that Theranos had only ever
performed roughly a dozen of the hundreds of tests it offered using its proprietary technology and with questionable accuracy. Investors and retail
partners backed out and in June of 2018.
Holmes pleaded not guilty. Ultimately, she was indicted for fraud before being convicted last year. Her rise and fall depicted in the Hid Hulu show
the dropout. Despite her conviction, Holmes told The New York Times that she plans to work on healthcare related inventions behind bars. "I still
dream about being able to contribute in that space".
(END VIDEOTAPE)
FLORES: Now back to that handbook. It states that once Holmes turns herself in, she will get a social and medical screening that all inmates must
maintain a job that the pay rate is between 12 and 40 cents. Now it doesn't specify if that's per hour. I'm assuming that that's per hour.
It also states that all inmates are initially assigned to the food service area. And Julia, one other thing it says that inmates have to wake up at 6
o'clock every morning and make their own beds, Julia.
CHATTERLEY: We shall see the next 11 years. Rosa Flores, thank you for that. Straight ahead, a warning from human rights groups in Iran will
explore Tehran's crackdown ongoing crackdown on dissent after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[09:20:00]
CHATTERLEY: Welcome back to "First Move". The protests in Iran sparked by the death of Mahsa Amini may have been quelled, but authorities are showing
little mercy to those who showed dissent. Now human rights groups say the government has resumed executing those accused of protesting.
Salma Abdelaziz joins us now on this. Salma, what more can you tell us? Do you have a sense of numbers?
SALMA ABDELAZIZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Very good question, Julia. What we did see in the last few months after that period last year, of course of these
massive demonstrations that rocked every single province in Iran that attracted international attention, there appeared to be a period of calm.
A brutal crackdown sent many protesters back home and pressure from the international community seemed to quiet Iran's repressive response. But now
with the world's attention turning away, it appears that they are once again resuming one of the most brutal practices of all executing
protesters. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ABDELAZIZ (voice over): Outside of jail near Tehran, families of prisoners gathered chant do not hang them. There please come as Iran resumes the
execution of protesters after a month's long hiatus. The brutal practice restarted this month with the hanging of three young men accused of killing
three members of the Security Forces during anti-government protests in November.
The news sparked more demonstrations. But activist and human rights groups say the allegations against the Trio are baseless. Majid Kazemi was forced
to watch video of interrogators torturing his brother, and he was subjected to at least 15 mock executions according to Amnesty International.
And an audio no obtained by the organization he maintained his innocence. CNN cannot independently verify the clip. They kept beating me and ordering
me to say this weapon is mine. He says, I told them, I would say whatever they wanted, just please leave my family alone.
Before his execution, the family of 36 year old Saleh Mirhashemi, a karate coach from Isfahan tried to draw attention to his plight. This picture of
his father spread on social media, my son is innocent, the sign reads. But to no avail. Activists shared this heartbreaking video, they say
Mirhashemi's dad hugging his picture as he lay by his son's grave.
Iran has not responded to CNN's request for common. The total number of demonstrators known to have been executed since last year now stands at
seven according to CNN reporting, and more executions are likely eminent. Over 100 protesters have been sentenced to death or facing charges
punishable by death says this human rights activist.
MAHMOOD AMIRY-MOGHADDAM, DIRECTOR OF IRAN HUMAN RIGHTS NGO: When authorities fear protests or right after protests number of executions go
up. The aim is to create fear in the society to prevent more protests.
ABDELAZIZ (on camera): Do you expect that the number of executions is going to rise even more this year?
AMIRY-MOGHADDAM: It is rising already unless the international community that takes a wrong move against these executions. We might be facing a very
large number of executions in the coming months.
ABDELAZIZ (voice over): Rights groups say that Mohammad Ghobadlou, a 22 year old protester with a mental health issue could be one of the next
victims of Iran's execution machine. Activists are ringing the alarm they say yet another Iranian faces death just for daring to speak out.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ABDELAZIZ: You asked me there about the numbers, Julia, the key number that activist and rights groups gave us is that some 100 people or over 100
people are either facing crimes punishable by death or have already received the death penalty, although it has yet to be carried out.
And I'll give you one more number and this is important. If you compare the figures the number of people executed in Iran from 2021 to 2022, there was
more than an 80 percent increase. Yes, most of those executions were due to crimes and other offenses that were not related to demonstrations.
But the concern is that the Iranian government is turning to this practice the death penalty evermore and that number more than 570 people executed
last year. That number could rise even more this year.
[09:25:00]
CHATTERLEY: Critically important report, Salma, thank you for that, Salma Abdelaziz there. OK, coming up after the break and extinction level threat,
why AI experts and our warning of risks for the survival of society. We'll hear from one industry leader after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CHATTERLEY: Welcome back to the show. Dozens of AI industry leaders, policymakers and academics are warning there's a risk that the use of
artificial intelligence could lead to the annihilation of humanity. The statement says extinction by AI should be considered a top global threat
and treated just as seriously as risks from pandemics or things like nuclear war.
It's, worth noting today's cutting edge Chatbots don't think for themselves. In simple terms, they produce outputs and answers based on data
that they've been trained on. It's about the model. And that's where scale AI sees it offers solutions. It provides software that impart helps label
and refine the datasets used in this process.
For example, their data can be used to teach AI and self-driving cars to spot the difference between a pedestrian and a pebble. It's very important.
Now for over seven years scale has been serving organizations from Fortune 500 companies to the U.S. Defense Department.
And it's just launched two new platforms Scale Donovan used in defense for AI decision making, and Scale EGP a generative platform for enterprises.
And I'm pleased to say Alexandr Wang is the CEO and he joins us now. Alexandr, most of my audience heads exploded there along with mine. I tried
to keep it simple, just in simple terms in your words. Welcome and explain what you do at Scale AI.
[09:30:00]
ALEXANDER WANG, CEO AND FOUNDER, SCALE AI: Thanks so much for having me on. Scale is the data platform accelerating the development of artificial
intelligence, like you mentioned, at the end of the day, these entire algorithms boil down to the data that they're trained on. So whether it's a
self-driving car, or it's ChatGPT, or it's any number of capabilities that people are working on with artificial intelligence, it always comes down to
data.
And we're working to unlock AI before every single industry from, you know, the high tech players, like Meta, Microsoft and others all the way to large
enterprises. And the U.S. government and the Department of Defense, like you mentioned with our new platforms, scale, Donovan scale EGP.
CHATTERLEY: OK, so you take that data, you label it, you filter it, and you ensure that whatever the inputs are, into the models that are created, are
the best they can be to ensure the most efficient and I think smartest, can we call it that outputs so that these chat bots, for example, don't turn
gobbledygook just based on the data that they're trained on being romance novels, for example, was one of them that was used, and then you got weird
outputs? WANG: Yes, that's exactly right. I think one of the things that we're finding with these AI is they're incredibly sensitive to the data that
they're trained on, you know, it's possible to create AI that will blow your mind and be incredibly powerful.
But it's also possible to create AI that just, you know, falls flat, or returns gobbledygook or just doesn't perform very well. Our view is that
enterprises and anyone using these models, they need to know how to use their own data, their own know how their own expertise, their own trade
secrets, to combine with these powerful algorithms to actually build experiences that are, you know, new, refreshing, different and powerful to
provide a lot of value to their customers, provide a lot of value to their users.
You know, enterprises can't use large language models, or these AI completely off the shelf, they can be customized and meet strict
requirements for security and performance to actually be able to be usable in the workplace.
CHATTERLEY: How do you do it? Does it require human input in order to label and select and to identify which data is best? I guess I'm asking why you
have an advantage in doing this versus anybody doing it in house, for example, if they wanted to.
WANG: Yes, you know, we've been working in AI, as you mentioned, for the past seven years, all the way back to the very genesis of many of the
technologies that we're seeing today. You know, we've been working with open AIs since 2019, for example, and work with them back on GPT2, before
it was incredibly powerful technology today.
One of the things I like to say is that it was a four year overnight success based on the work that we did with them. You know, today we're
seeing a lot of AI tourists pretending to be AI natives, because there's just so much hype. There are a lot of companies that are not even selling
solutions. They're selling vaporware.
And so what we can bring is a lot of our expertise in working with these systems from the very beginning and have a ton of experience bringing this
technology from prototype to production, and actually help release this technology to the broader public, you know, our products, they're not
coming soon.
They're living with customers today, everywhere from the fortune 500 to the U.S. Department of Defense. Our Donovan platform is the first large
language model that's going to be deployed on a U.S. government classified network with Donovan warfighters can act in minutes instead of weeks.
And we're working with customers, including the Department of Defense's joint old domain command and control as well as the Marine Corps University
School of Advanced war fighting. And on the enterprise side, you know, our view is that kind of, as I mentioned, enterprises can't use large language
models off the shelf.
And that's why we created EGP. It's a full stack solution for enterprises that is model agnostic, and enables businesses to leverage a suite of
options from leading private models to open source models to test deploy, monitor the best tech for their unique, unique business models.
CHATTERLEY: OK.
WANG: You know we're working with customers like Koch Industries to enable generative AI for their business.
CHATTERLEY: OK, I have a million questions for you. But the most important one was just how sort of unemotionally you were discussing some of the
defense contracts, and the importance that your data and your filtering is in the selections that are one day going to be made.
And if I tie that with the warning that we got from the industry about the risk of extinction from AI, and combine it with what you just said about
open AI and the difference, I think between what we've already seen with ChatGPT- 2 and ChatGPT-4, the sophistication, it's dramatically better. So
is the darker side. Alexandr, where's the off button here? Where's the control system in evenly the defense contracts that are being undertaken
today?
WANG: Yes, no, this is a topic of, of incredible importance. And as we saw today with a statement, I think it's, you know, this is one of the reasons
why at scale, we're working in partnership with the White House to perform a public evaluation of these AI systems. It's critical that the AI industry
is doing this work in testing and evaluating these models in parallel alongside development and progress and foundation models and progress in
AI.
[09:35:00]
The capabilities needs to happen alongside progress and safety and model evaluation and understanding what the risks associated with this technology
are. So you know, what we're doing is --
CHATTERLEY: Is that happening today, Alexander? I mean, we're asking these questions, which is important, but I feel like ChatGPT has been unleashed
on the broader public before we really have any controls. Let's be clear.
WANG: I think, you know, this is one of the things that we're working on. And the White House recently released a statement, I believe, is two weeks
ago, a fact sheet describing the efforts that they're taking in, in ensuring public evaluation and public forums in which we're understanding
the importance of these models. I, you know, one thing I would say is, we need to act very quickly.
It is an incredibly powerful technology, these are incredibly important conversations that we need to be having. And so we're trying to race as
quickly as we can to, to deliver these test and evaluation systems. But you know, as I'm, as we mentioned before, at scale, we have over seven years of
expertise in AI industry.
And so, you know, we've been able to utilize our deep understanding and clear way to measure the risks associated with these models to really
accelerate, you know, our country's efforts and understanding, you know, the safety mitigations and risks with these models.
CHATTERLEY: The scary thing is, seven years in your prehistoric in artificial intelligence system, I mean, you're infected dinosaur, so we are
sort of relying on you in many ways to be able to recognize the benefits, which I think people can and do see, but also the downsides.
If I had to ask you just put you on the spot what you think the best way is to regulate this? And I know it's a complicated, complex question, what is
the best way to regulate it? It makes sense to pause. Alexander, I know it's fundamental to your business. But would a pause make sense?
WANG: Yes, this is a really important question. And it's one that we and I personally have spent a lot of time thinking about. I think, as we've seen,
you know, the history of AI really tells us that the key to human centric, responsible AI really comes down to a solid data Foundation.
And for a technology that's as transformative as far reaching as potentially as ubiquitous as artificial intelligence, I unfortunately,
don't think there's a one size fits all approach to regulation. For example, there are a number of industries that are going to need to
regulate industries that are impacted by AI, such as the FDA for medicine and health, or the Department of Transportation for autonomous vehicles, or
the FAA, for drones.
And so you know, ensuring that AI is employed for maximal benefit will require a wide participation from everywhere from policymakers, industry,
civil society organizations, and everyone needs to bring together come together to sort of educate each other to ensure that AI is developed in a
safe and trustworthy way for the American people.
One thing is clear, though, per our previous conversation, I think it's absolutely critical that we have proper testing, evaluation and, and
understanding of the risks of these AI systems as we are developing them. So kind of, as you mentioned, how we've unleashed ChatGPT on the world,
potentially, before there have been the right checks and balances put in place.
I think, for all future deployments of powerful AI technology, we need to ensure that we have the right public safeguards and public testing to make
sure that there's nothing risky or dangerous with any models that we're publishing in the future.
CHATTERLEY: I couldn't agree more with you, a human sensitive and centric AI system requires the right dataset and to consider it, I read an article
about your company in Forbes back in April. And it said you employ sort of a company called Remotasks, which employs around 240,000 humans that other
ones are going through all this data and trying to make sure that the right dataset fit for you guys is provided to the customers.
Is that right, Alexandr? Does it take 240,000 people to sort of cultivate the datasets that you're providing to customers? Because human centric data
also requires a lot of humans if that's true.
WANG: Yes, exactly as you mentioned, in terms of a human centric and a human sensitive approach to artificial intelligence, you know, we really
believe that it requires sort of the collective expertise and collective knowledge of as many people in the world to really empower and enhance
these models.
You know, we don't believe in walled gardens, and we don't believe in sort of a small group of individuals or small group of engineers deciding how
this technology should look for the entire world or the broader ecosystem. That the use cases that we're considering, whether it's, you know, with the
Department of Defense and working on defense use cases or it's with large enterprises or it's with open AI, deploying ChatGPT.
You know, these are used case that is incredibly important for the future of humanity writ large not just for the future of the technology industry.
[09:40:00]
And so, you know, our view is that we need to build a technology that enables the sort of collective wisdom and collective expertise of as many
people as possible to bring into the datasets that fuel these models so that they reflect our collective knowledge or collective wisdom or
collective values.
CHATTERLEY: Yes, I mean, the more people that's checking this, the better, but am I correct? Do you employ sort of hundreds of thousands of people to
check this data? And I guess if do you, actually, I should ask you the question directly first.
WANG: Yes, you know, I can't comment specifically on the number of people.
CHATTERLEY: It should -- defense contracts, surely where those people are based and who's checking the data, or doesn't it?
WANG: Yes, so in our work with in scale Donovan, for example, one of the things that we do is in line with deploying, you know, the first large
language model, the first AI system to large language model to classify networks. You know, we're also ensuring that the data to fuel these systems
is powered by, you know, the most brilliant experts within the United States. So we in this case, we bring in experts in defense data and in in
defense context, to bring the data to be able to power these models.
CHATTERLEY: Alexandr, I have about thousand more questions for you, but we're going to have to reconvene. As you said, this is early days. So this
technology, we all need to be thinking about regulation. And yes, we'll reconvene, sir, thank you for joining us on the show. Alexandr Wang, CEO
and Co-Founder of Scale AI, great to chat to you, we're back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CHATTERLEY: Welcome back to "First Move". Now as we reported earlier in the show there's Shenzhou-16 spacecraft has successfully docked with the
Chinese space station, the crew of three will spend the next five months making this their home among the stars.
China saying the launch was a "Complete success". And it may just be a small leap for men in this case amid Beijing's broader space ambitions.
Shenzhou-16 is the fifth manned mission to the Shenzhou Space Station since 2021, kind of clearly looking to turn itself into the world leader in
space.
Plans for the next decade include solar powered beam down to Earth from orbit by 2028. And a lunar research station by 2036. The question is how
feasible is all of this.
[09:45:00]
Joining us now is Namrata Goswami; she is Professor of Space Policy at the Thunderbird School of Global Management at Arizona State University,
Professor, fantastic to have you on the show. This launch and successful docking at the Chinese space station just one more piece of their broader
space ambitions. Just put it into context for us, how intrinsic is this to national security, national rejuvenation, and the Chinese economy?
NAMRATA GOSWAMI, INDEPENDENT SCHOLAR ON SPACE POLICY: Sure, thank you for having me. So this particular launch has three very critical benefits for
China in terms of leadership in space and national rejuvenation. One, it proves that China has the continuous capability to support human presence
in low Earth orbit, which is a critical capability to then support missions to the moon, as well as China's ambitions to go to Mars and asteroids.
So in terms of national security, this means that China is able to test capabilities and low Earth orbit like robotic arm, rendezvous and docking
proximity operations. But deeper than that is the very critical component of economic development.
So what this means is that China has announced ambitions to access the resources on the moon, which in their estimation is going to be a $10
trillion economy annually by 2050. So to be able to support missions, transportation cargo to the low earth orbit, Tiangong station is a way to
showcase to the world as well as test capabilities for those ambitions that they have articulated.
CHATTERLEY: I mean that's quite fascinating to me. The difference in explaining their ambitions between China and the United States, for
example, I've never heard the U.S. government talk about this in terms of a $10 trillion economic opportunity by 2050. And that's on an annual basis.
Is that rare earth minerals? Is that where this opportunity is?
GOSWAMI: Yes, so if you look, if you listen to China's main designer Wu Weiren a lunar program, he identifies three critical resources that are
there on the moon. One is, of course, rare earth minerals, like titanium, platinum, silicon iron ore, which in their estimation, is that economy that
they talk about.
The second important critical component is helium three, which is the fuel that will be used for nuclear propulsion capability that will enable China
to reach for example, Mars at a much, much shorter duration. And then the final resource on the moon, which is absolutely vital for that economic
development, is water ice that can be utilized not just for rocket fuel, but also sustained human presence.
And as you must have heard, just last week, China brought forward its human lunar missions to 2030 instead of 2036. So they are actually competing, and
scaling up their ambitions as we speak.
CHATTERLEY: Yes, the timetable is shrinking further ambitions. And we mentioned it in the introduction 2014, which happens to be the 100th
anniversary year anniversary of the People's Republic of China; they want to be the leader in space. I guess my question that follows that is, is
this excessive ambition? Or is this achievable, just based on what we're seeing at this moment?
GOSWAMI: This is actually not an excessive ambition. If you think about it, it is articulated since 2000, when China established the Lunar Exploration
Program and resource extraction program. And so in the world, what is interesting is that there is this argument that Earth is finite and the
resources on earth, for example, something like ground solar is not 24 hours.
So in the Chinese estimation technologies like space based solar power that you mentioned, which is 24 hour sunlight from space is a critical
technology if China wants to advance. And if you think about it, if you look at their lunar programs, they have articulated several missions.
They have succeeded till Chang'e-5 that is the lunar sample return mission from near Earth, near sorry, near side of the moon. And so the next mission
is going to the south pole of the moon, and finally, a research station. So they're actually demonstrating capability.
And so the important thing for your audience is that when you think about it, it's connected to the Communist Party of China's legitimacy, economic
development, and also making sure that China has presence in some of the most critical strategic areas on the moon. So one is of course Lagrange
point 2, where they have the relay satellite and the South Pole.
So when I studied their program and I have been doing it, looking at their grand strategy for the last 20 years, this is actually practical. The
physics supportive, all we need to do is now demonstrate the capability.
[09:50:00]
CHATTERLEY: Yes, that was the question I was looking for earlier, the practicalities of it a critical satellite technology as well. We speak to
startups; we've spoken to the NASA administrator about the importance of this satellite, low Earth orbit and the importance of it on the ground for
communications for logistics for bank transactions.
For defense, it's fundamental. Talk to me about this and whether you see this being perhaps the next, if not already battleground for technology
between China and the West? And how should it be handled by the West in your mind?
GOSWAMI: Well, I think when you want to understand China's investment in strategic technologies, especially the Communist Party of China, so there
are three very critical technologies that they have identified as vital for the National rejuvenation of the Chinese nation as well as taking
leadership. One is space and space technology.
So for example, China has its own bio navigation system that enables not just civilian navigation, as well as timing and precision, which is
critical for container ship traffic, where China is the leader, but also national security. So it supports missile tracking and precision navigation
timing of missiles, it supports command and control nuclear signaling.
Also, what is fascinating is that satellite technology also enables satellite internet, which is critical, not just for civilian
infrastructure, but also military. And so when you think about it from a national security perspective, China has also invested in certain counter
space capabilities like anti-satellite, weapon, kinetic, which means you directly target and destroy a satellite, they show to the world that
capability in 2007.
But they also have invested in non-kinetic, which do not mean you launch a satellite, launch a missile and target a satellite. But you actually use
spoofing, jamming, dazzling, and laser, laser is a critical capability and China has invested in that.
So to answer your question, in short, there are three very critical strategic technologies China is investing in space, artificial intelligence
that enables that capability. China just announced an artificial space orbital platform last year, and then finally robotic, so basically, robotic
capability.
And so the difference between China and the U.S. is that while the United States is very much focused on exploration, human spaceflight, showcasing a
capability to go back to the moon, China's missions are very robotic, they're not announcing human missions for the next few years. They want to
first develop that robotic capability supported by AI and 3d printing to demonstrate presence.
CHATTERLEY: So one is about sort of science, scientific approaches and exploration and the other is highly strategic over the course of the next
decades. I'm just getting warmed up, we have to speak again, thank you so much for your wisdom, great to have you on the show.
And wherever you are, it looks absolutely beautiful. So yes, for sure was their little. Namrata Goswami, thank you, Professor of Space Policy at the
Thunderbird School of Global Management at Arizona State University, we're back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[09:55:00]
CHATTERLEY: And welcome back to "First Move". U.S. stocks are back in action following the long holiday weekend. And there's the picture, it
doesn't mostly strongest art and hopes that debt ceiling agreement will pass congress preventing a U.S. debt default. Though the challenges for
investors don't stop there, we've got that critical U.S. jobs report on Friday which will help implement the Federal Reserve's next interest rate
decision.
And the big stock story of the day to the historic rally in shares of AI chip make in video, warnings today not hurting them. The company's market
cap hitting $1 trillion in the first few minutes of trade, it's the first chip maker ever to attain this historic valuation.
Shares are about more than 185 percent so far this year if you're an investor, congratulations to you. That is it for the show. "Connect the
world" with Becky Anderson is up next. And I'll see you tomorrow.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[10;00:00]
END
