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First Move with Julia Chatterley
Blinken's Warning To China; Post-War Agreements Could Be Prepared Ahead Of Ceasefire; Egypt Working To Restart Ceasefire Negotiations; Iran's Anti-Israel Rhetoric Ramps Up; Iran Hardliners Warn The U.S. And Israel Not To Attack Again; Pro-Palestinian Protests Continues; Trump's Long Time Assistant Takes Stand; Trump On Trial; Gary Farro On Stand In Trump's Hush Money Trial; Trump: I'll Debate Biden Anywhere, Anytime; Trump Challenging Biden To A Debate; Expect Higher Inflation Or Risk Slower Growth; Alphabet Hits A Monumental Market Milestone; CNN Speaks To U.S. Secretary Of State In China; Making Calls From The Moon; The Internet Race In Space; South Africa Marks 30 Years Of Democracy; Beauty Beyond Boundaries. Aired 6-7p ET
Aired April 26, 2024 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[18:00:00]
JAKE TAPPER, CNN ANCHOR: That's Sunday morning at 9:00 Eastern and again at noon here on CNN.
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(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
JULIA CHATTERLEY, CNN HOST: It's 6:00 a.m. in Beijing, 11:00 p.m. in London, and 6:00 p.m. here in New York. I'm Julia Chatterley. and wherever
you are in the world, this is your FIRST MOVE.
A welcome to FIRST MOVE, as always. And here's today's need to know. PRC prying. The U.S. secretary of state telling CNN he's seen evidence of China
trying to influence the 2024 election, that despite President Xi's commitment not to.
Inside Iran. CNN speaking to ordinary Iranians about the risk of conflict. As hardliners warn the U.S. and Israel not to attack again.
Trump on trial. His longtime assistant is among the witnesses in the criminal hush money trial. While the former president clearing his
calendar, apparently, for a debate with President Biden.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT AND REPUBLICAN PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: But we're willing to do it Monday night, Tuesday night, Wednesday night,
Thursday night, or Friday night on national television. We're ready. Just tell me where. We'll do it at the White House. That would be very
comfortable, actually.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CHATTERLEY: And streaming in space. Nokia and NASA are building a moon capable 4G cellular network. We'll discuss a potential launch date. That
conversation and plenty more coming right up.
But first. America's top diplomat sits down with CNN in China, the U.S. secretary of state providing a remarkably candid assessment of everything
from Middle East relations, Beijing's relations with Moscow, through to claims of election interference.
Antony Blinken says the U.S. has already seen evidence of Beijing attempting to influence the upcoming U.S. election. Something, of course,
China has consistently denied. It follows meetings with Beijing's top brass, in which Blinken also warned of potential U.S. action over China's
support for Russia.
Now, Kylie Atwood conducted that interview and is traveling with Blinken in China, and she joins us now from Beijing. Kylie, fantastic to have you with
us and great to be able to sit down with the secretary of state there.
It's a very different relationship. I think we can say that to where we were, what, 12 months ago, which does allow thorny issues to be discussed
and debated. It was the conversation though about potential election interference that certainly caught my attention. What more did he have to
say about the evidence for that and what they're saying about China tackling it, stopping it ultimately?
KYLIE ATWOOD, CNN U.S. SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Yes. Well, listen, the secretary said that China is arguably already attempting to interfere in
U.S. elections. And the context here is that late last year, President Biden and President Xi met in the U.S. And CNN has reported that Xi made a
commitment to Biden that China would not interfere in the upcoming presidential elections.
And so, it's noteworthy that it appears that China is not heeding the warning calls from the United States not to do it. Also, not upholding that
commitment that President Xi made. Listen to what the secretary of state, Antony Blinken, told me about what the U.S. is seeing here.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANTONY BLINKEN, U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE: What I can tell you is this, President Biden was very clear about that with President Xi, and I repeated
that today in my meetings.
ATWOOD: You repeated what?
BLINKEN: That any interference by China in our election is something that we're looking very carefully at and is totally unacceptable to us.
So, I wanted to make sure that they heard that message again. But it was particularly important that President Biden deliver it directly to
President Xi when they met. Look, it's something we're tracking very carefully. I can't speak to these specific reports. I can say that, as a
general matter, we've been very clear with China, don't do it.
ATWOOD: But they're not violating the commitment yet, as far as you can tell?
BLINKEN: Well, again, I'd have to look at the specific reports that you're referring to. But we have seen, generally speaking, evidence of attempts to
influence and arguably interfere, and we want to make sure that that's cut off as quickly as possible.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[18:05:00]
ATWOOD: Now, Julia, he went on to tell me that the U.S. is concerned about China seeking to mirror the influence campaigns that Russia has been
carrying out in the U.S. for quite some time now, trying to drive up divisions in the U.S. Of course, this will be a topic that we watch
incredibly closely heading into the November presidential elections in the U.S. We'll watch to see what U.S. officials are saying about it and what
they do about it as well.
CHATTERLEY: And, Kylie, very quickly, the other thing obviously that was discussed was China's support for Russia, whether that's paying for energy
supplies, of course, which we know is taking place, but also on more military kinds of support.
Very quickly, what did he have to say about that? Because I know you also got into quite a swift exchange with him on that too.
ATWOOD: He essentially said that if China doesn't stop providing these dual use technologies and good to Russia, they're helping them build up
their military base right now, their defense industrial base, then the U.S. is going to come out and there are going to be costs for China that are
going to be applied.
He also said that Europeans are in a position where they are also ready to come out and apply costs against China here. So, it was very clear that he
was warning the Chinese not to continue doing this. But notably, he also told me that China didn't actually acknowledge that these goods that
they're selling to Russia right now are actually being used in the way that they are, to allow Russia to continue carrying out the war in Ukraine.
CHATTERLEY: Yes, it's good that the two sides are talking. The relations are far better than they were a year ago, but that doesn't mean it's not
tough in terms of what's being discussed. Kylie Atwood, great interview. Great to have you with us. Thank you.
Now, during his visit to China, Blinken also discussed the Israel-Hamas war saying post-war agreements could be prepared ahead of any potential
ceasefire. And that includes items like normalizing relations between Saudi Arabia and Israel or even a two-state solution.
Meanwhile, an Egyptian delegation has arrived in Israel hoping to revive those very ceasefire and hostage talks. Jeremy Diamond has more from
Jerusalem.
JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Julia, there does appear to be somewhat of a last-ditch effort by Egypt to try and revive these stalled
ceasefire and hostage negotiations. An Egyptian delegation was in Israel earlier today, a working level delegation, trying to work out the finer
points of a framework agreement that would then be presented to Hamas, including to Hamas' leader in Gaza, Yahya Sinwar, over the coming days to
see if there is a way of moving forward.
And one of the key elements of pressure that is being brought to bear on all of this is the fact that Israeli officials have been telegraphing a
coming military ground offensive in that southernmost City of Rafah, which is right on the border with Egypt.
And so, there's no question that Egypt's concerns about the possibility of that operation on which they have been engaging in security consultations
with Israeli officials over the course of the last week, there's no questions that Egypt's concerns about that operation are playing a huge
part here in this effort by the Egyptians.
And while there isn't any kind of certainty or any sense that there is a breakthrough on the immediate horizon, we did get a sense of optimism
earlier today from the U.S. national security adviser, Jake Sullivan.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JAKE SULLIVAN, U.S. NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: If you would ask me a week ago, I would have said I felt we were in a deadlock, not that this was
hopeless because we will get this done, but that we were at a bit of an impasse.
Today, I believe that there is a renewed effort underway involving Qatar and Egypt as well as Israel to try to find a way forward.
Can I guarantee that will happen in the near term? I cannot. But do I think that there is new momentum, new life in these hostage talks? I believe
there is, and it is our job to try to take that new life, push it forward, and get to an end game where every one of those hostages, including the
American hostages, is home safe with their family.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DIAMOND: And while it's clear that Israel and Hamas are still very far apart in these negotiations, at least on one point, Israel has moved closer
to Hamas' position in -- over the course of the last week or so. A U.S. official confirming that the latest draft agreements includes provisions
for Palestinians to return to Northern Gaza in an unrestricted manner, which is something that Hamas has been insisting on.
But there are other Hamas demands, like a total withdrawal of Israeli troops from Gaza, an end to this war altogether that Israeli officials, for
now, have said are total nonstarters for an initial cease fire agreement that is indeed being contemplated.
And so, amid all of this, of course, the Israeli military operations in Gaza are still very much continuing. 51 Palestinians were killed over the
course of just the last 24 hours, according to the Palestinian Ministry of Health. And since the beginning of the war, we have now crossed another
milestone of more than 34,000 Palestinians who have been killed since the beginning of this war. Julia.
[18:10:00]
CHATTERLEY: Thanks to our Jeremy Diamond there in Jerusalem.
Now, Israel and Iran have traded strikes in recent weeks as the war in Gaza threatens to spill over into the rest of the Middle East. Hardliners in
Tehran say they're ready to fight Israel, the United States, or both. Our own Fred Pleitgen is the only western reporter on the ground in Iran. He
spoke to people in Tehran about their thoughts on the possible escalation.
FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Hi there, Julia. Well, it certainly is a time of heightened tension between Iran and
Israel, but of course, also between Iran and the USA as well.
And the Iranians have said that there has been a strategic shift on their part where they say that if Israel strikes either Iran or its assets in the
Middle East again, that the Iranians will hit back hard. We also witnessed some of that tough rhetoric today. Here's what we saw.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PLEITGEN (voice-over): Iran's hardliners flexing their muscles, screaming death to America and death to Israel at Tehran's main Friday prayers. The
staunchly conservative prayer leader saying the Islamic Republic will not back down.
PLEITGEN: Iran has warned it will take an even harder light towards U.S. and towards Israel in the future. Saying that if Israel attacks Iran or its
assets one more time, the Iranians will strike back from their home territory.
PLEITGEN (voice-over): Tensions in the Middle East remain at a boiling point after Iran launched a massive drone and missile attack against Israel
in retaliation for the bombing of its embassy compound in Syria, killing several top Revolutionary Guard commanders.
Israel, the U.S., and other allies managed to take down most of the Iranian drones and missiles, but Israel then hitting back with a limited strike
against an airfield in Central Iran.
The hardliners flying massive Palestinian flags, ripping into Israel's operation in Gaza and the U.S.'s support for Israel. The message here, Iran
is ready for a confrontation.
In fact, we are even happy about this, this man says. We are praying day and night for a second and third attack.
And he says, we've had these threats for a long time, but the difference is now, the people are strong, the IRGC is strong, and the army is strong and
we have strong tools.
And this cleric says, if the Islamic Republic of Iran will have more conflicts in the future, it doesn't mean we are warmongering. We're just
reacting to the bullies.
But on the streets of Tehran, concern, the current tensions could escalate and even turn into war.
I believe the situation will get worse, this man says, as both sides are more combative, and in my opinion, it will lead to war and to calamity for
people.
This woman says, we are definitely concerned, worried, but what can we ordinary people do about it?
Iran's leadership says its military is ready for combat, even as they say, war is not in their interest.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PLEITGEN: So, there you can see some of that tough talk on the ground here in Tehran. And of course, the Iranians can cause a lot of trouble for the
U.S. and for Israel here in the Middle East. In fact, a former member of the Revolutionary Guard once told me that the U.S. needs to understand that
next to every American military base in this region, there is a militia that is loyal to Iran that could certainly strike those American assets.
Julia.
CHATTERLEY: Thanks to Fred Pleitgen in there in Tehran.
Now, meanwhile, protests here in the United States and beyond.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No more fighting, no more fear.
CROWD: No more fighting, no more fear.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CHATTERLEY: So, that was a pro post Palestinian protest at George Washington University on Friday as the demonstrations continue across the
nation. And over at the Atlantic, others are joining the movement too. In Paris, students blocked access to the main campus building of the Paris
Institute of Political Science, also known as Sciences Pro.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So, we are inspired by Columbia, Harvard, Yale, UNC, Vanderbilt, all these universities that have mobilized. But our solidarity
remains with the Palestinian people first and foremost.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CHATTERLEY: And this is the scene from University College, London. You can see protesters chanting pro-Palestinian slogans and waving Palestinian
flags.
And now, to New York and the latest in Donald Trump's hush money trial. The first week of testimony wrapping up Friday with two new witnesses taking
the stand. Rhona Graff, Trump's former longtime assistant and Gary Farro, a former banker for Michael Cohen, who is a central figure for the
prosecution.
Zach Cohen joins us now. Zach, great to have you with us. What's the need to know? We're four days in. What's the absolute need to know after the
first week of this trial?
[18:15:00]
ZACHARY COHEN, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY REPORTER: Yes, Julia, we started off with opening statements where the prosecution laid out their case, they're
going to try to prove over the next month or two and that -- the TLDR on what the case is, is that these payments, the hush money payments, were
part of an effort to try to suppress these stories about Trump's alleged affair with a porn star from coming out and to do so, to benefit his
presidential campaign in 2016. That's what the prosecution is setting out to prove.
And they started that process by calling their first witness, David Pecker. We heard a lot from him this week. He's the so-called tabloid king. He is
somebody who testified about his history with Donald Trump. And specifically, his history of a relationship where he, Donald Trump, and
Michael Cohen, Trump's longtime fixer, had this process called catch and kill, where Pecker would pay for stories before they came out in the media
and that he would have essentially make sure that those stories, that are potentially embarrassing to Donald Trump, never came out.
And specifically, he testified that his understanding of this relationship was that it was specifically to help Donald Trump's presidential campaign.
Now, it's important to note that where Pecker's first-hand testimony left off is he recommended to Michael Cohen that Michael Cohen should buy Stormy
Daniels' story. That's where the indictment really focuses, is on Stormy Daniels and efforts to keep her story from coming out.
So, leaving the door open and setting the stage for other witnesses, and Michael Cohen himself to take the stand sort of fill in those gaps. And
then as you mentioned, the second and third witnesses also taking the stand today. The first was Trump's longtime personal assistant, somebody who sat
outside his office in Trump Tower for over 30 years. She was sort of a vehicle for prosecutors to introduce documentary evidence.
And prosecutors also made very clear and elicited this testament from her that Donald Trump is paying for her and other Trump organization employees
legal fees. So, that was something the prosecution wanted the jury to hear.
The second witness today, in addition to Rhona Graff was this man named Gary Farro. And Gary Farro is a banker who testified that he worked with
Michael Cohen and helped him set up these accounts that were allegedly used to pay Stormy Daniels for -- to keep her story quiet.
You know, the prosecution has a long way to go. They have to link Donald Trump to these payments. They have not done that yet. But they are
establishing sort of the context and the circumstances around this case. The jury has to know in order to hear Michael Cohen's story and testimony
and ultimately, determine whether or not they find it credible.
CHATTERLEY: Yes, and this was just a week, a scene setter effectively. One week down and several more certainly to go. Now, in a classic sort of reel
them in headline moment, and here I go, Trump also made headlines as he left the court on Friday to challenging President Biden to a debate. All
this seemingly in response, though, to what President Biden said earlier in the day in an interview with radio personality Howard Stern. Let the let
the audience take a listen first.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HOWARD STERN, HOST, HOWARD STERN SHOW: I don't know if you're going to debate your opponent.
JOE BIDEN, U.S. PRESIDENT: I am. Somewhere. I don't know when. I'm happy to debate him.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CHATTERLEY: OK. So, that is important. Donald Trump has said all the way along, look, I'll debate, even though he didn't debate his competitors in
the primaries, of course, but that's the first time President Biden has openly said, OK, we'll debate.
Zach, debate is good. We actually need these two on a stage debating policy.
COHEN: We do. And, you know, up until now, the two men have essentially lobbed attacks at each other from afar. They've criticized each other in
the press. They've called each other a variety of different names. Donald Trump, though, in a position where he is stuck in court four days a week
for the foreseeable future, and his really only platform to campaign and to try to convince the voters that he should be president of the United States
is to campaign from those courthouse steps, saying again today that he would even debate Joe Biden there.
So, it's some political puffing of the chest from a man who's been a little bit cagey and unwilling to debate his primary opponents in the past. But as
you said, this is the first time we've heard Joe Biden unequivocally say that he too would be willing to meet Trump in a debate.
It's interesting as well, because both men have faced some criticism and their campaigns have attacked each other over this idea that they're both
too old or perhaps too, you know, incapable or worn down of serving as president. That's something that has really come to the forefront as Trump
specifically has sat in this courtroom for hours and hours every single day.
So, we'll see if it ultimately happens. Debates don't usually occur until a little bit further in the presidential campaign cycle, but both men
committing today, Trump again for like the multiple -- like 100th time that they would debate each other. We'll just have to see when that ultimately
ends up happening.
CHATTERLEY: Yes. Both of you, prove you're not too old and also prove that you have the policy chops and not just the sort of name calling, et cetera,
et cetera. Zach, we'll see when it happens. Zach Cohen, thank you for that update there.
All right. Coming up here on FIRST MOVE, the ABCs of investor happiness. Google parent company Alphabet hitting a monumental market milestone after
announcing its first ever dividend.
And later in the program, to boldly go where no cell phone coverage has gone before. Officials from NASA and Nokia discuss their new mission
bringing 4G service to the moon.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[18:20:00]
CHATTERLEY: Welcome back to FIRST MOVE. And TGIF to all our First Movers in the United States, U.K., and across Latin America. And to everyone in
Asia, we hope you're having a super start to Saturday morning.
And a super session for tech tops in today's "Money Move." Green arrows across the board. The NASDAQ having its strongest session since February,
up more than 2 percent, helped along, of course, by those stellar earnings this week from Alphabet and from Microsoft. Alphabet, if you remember,
announcing its first ever dividend. Well, now, it's got a market cap above 2 trillion. For the first time ever shares up almost 10 percent on the day.
Over in Asia, closing out the week higher too. The Hang Seng up more than 2 percent for the best weekly close in more than 12 years. Again, thanks to
tech. Look at giants like Alibaba.
The Japanese Nikkei, meanwhile, higher too with the Bank of Japan keeping interest rates unchanged in its latest policy statement. The Bank of Japan
also offering no support for the beleaguered yen, which value continue to plummet on Friday. The yen now at a fresh 34-year low against the U.S.
dollar.
Now, after the BOJ, the Fed gets its say. U.S. Central Bankers meeting next week to discuss their policy path and no doubt lament the latest inflation
numbers. A brand-new batch of disappointing data Friday confront Fed Chair Jay Powell and crew his predicament, accept higher inflation or perhaps
risk even slower growth with consequences for jobs in an election year if you raise rates. Matt Egan has more.
MATT EGAN, CNN REPORTER: Julia, inflation increasingly look stuck. It's not as bad as two years ago, not nearly as bad. But it's not good either.
The Fed's favorite inflation metric, the PCE Index, showed that prices increased by 2.7 percent in March year over year. That is worse than
expected, and it is another step in the wrong direction.
[18:25:00]
Now, when we look at the trend, it's clear that inflation has improved, right? This metric, it was above 7 percent in 2022, back when gas prices
were surging, but also clear when you look at the trend that the improvement has stalled out recently. Price increases have actually
accelerated a bit this year, and that's a concern because, as you know, the Fed targets 2 percent inflation and inflation remains well above 2 percent.
Even if you strip out food and gas prices, which can be volatile, core PCE, that still came in at 2.8 percent. Again, hotter than expected and above
the Fed's target.
Now, the good news is that Americans continue to shop, right? Spending remains strong in March, and that is crucial because consumer spending,
that's the biggest driver of the economy. The bad news, of course, is the cost of living remains far too high for far too many people.
And the higher inflation is, right, the more expensive life is. Food and gasoline and housing, those are the big ones, but we've also seen the
prices have been rising rapidly for other things, like car insurance, baby formula, and taking your pet to the vet. And this, of course, keeps the
federal reserve in a difficult spot.
Many hope that inflation would be low enough, at this point, to free up the Fed, to start cutting interest rates. That would make it cheaper to get a
mortgage, a car loan, pay off credit card debt. But inflation remains stubborn and that dream of rate cuts, it does seem to be fading.
Of course, the risk is that if the Fed keeps rates too high for too long, it will eventually do some real damage to the economy. Julia.
CHATTERLEY: A tough debate. Matt Egan there.
All right. Next, tough talks in China. More from CNN's interview with the U.S. secretary of state. And where real relations between the two
superpowers stand today. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[18:30:00]
CHATTERLEY: Welcome back to FIRST MOVE with a look at more international headlines this hour. Flooding causing chaos in East Africa. In Tanzania,
more than 150 people have lost their lives and over 10,000 homes were damaged as heavy rains continue. Floods and landslides have affected at
least 200,000 people with extensive damage to crops and infrastructure. And in neighboring Kenya, the government says at least 70 people have died as a
result of the flooding.
A Delta Airlines flight making an emergency return to New York after an evacuation slide detached from the Boeing 767. The plane lost the slide
shortly after taking off from JFK Airport Friday morning. Fortunately, no one was hurt. And the Federal Aviation Administration says it's
investigating the incident.
Buckingham Palace says King Charles, who has been receiving treatment for cancer, will resume public duties next week. It also released this new
picture of the king along with Queen Camilla. A Palace spokesperson said the king's medical team remained positive about his ongoing recovery. Great
news there.
And a reminder once again of our top story here on FIRST MOVE, the U.S. secretary of state says there is evidence of attempts by China to influence
this year's U.S. elections. Antony Blinken spoke to CNN after meeting with top officials in Beijing including Chinese leader, Xi Jinping.
The meeting comes after recent strained relations between the two sides. Blinken says communication has been the key to help overcome that.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BLINKEN: I was here, as you said, about 10 months ago, and we really restarted high-level communications between us. A series of my colleagues
followed, but most important, President Biden and President Xi met on the margins of the APEC meetings in San Francisco at the end of last year. And
they agreed to a couple of things.
One, that we would continue these high-level communications to make sure that, at the very least, we avoided any misunderstandings, miscalculations
that can lead to conflict, but also, that we see if we can find areas of cooperation, even as we're dealing very forthrightly with our differences.
So, I'd say that the conversations that we had now are certainly better and that we are focused on areas where we're working to cooperate, but also,
we're being very forthright about our differences. And that's important if we're going to avoid the competition we're in turning into conflict.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CHATTERLEY: Now, despite that relatively upbeat note, China's readout of the meeting with President Xi says relations will only truly stabilize when
the U.S. takes a more favorable view of Beijing's development. Rick Waters is the managing director for China at the Eurasia Group. He also worked at
the U.S. State Department as a top China policy official, and he joins us now. Rick, fantastic to have you with us.
I think glass half full, the relationship between the two nations far better than it was a year ago, the glass half empty is exactly what came
from that readout, which is, unfortunately, things won't stabilize until they see China's development the same way. The problem is, they simply
don't and won't.
RICK WATERS, MANAGING DIRECTOR FOR CHINA, EURASIA GROUP: Well, good to be here. And I think you're right. I think this in U.S.-China relations terms
is about as good as you get. The two sides have got very consequential differences. I don't think they're going to resolve many of them. So, the
best you can do is manage those differences within boundaries. And I think that's what Secretary Blinken went to Beijing to do.
CHATTERLEY: Do you think that's where we are, Rick? Because the message has been, and you can add in the U.S. treasury secretary's visit there as
well, and the comments that came from that, that the playing field ultimately isn't level, that the United States is now restricting sensitive
technologies. The belief is that China thieves and has stolen intellectual property. And I don't see any of those things improving. So, what does
stabilization in both Chinese and American terms look like?
WATERS: Well, I think they have very different views of that question. I think on the U.S. side, Blinken basically went to Beijing to throw some
brushback pitches. He threw brushback pitches over overcapacity, where the reality is, so long as China is manufacturing a third of everything, but
only buying a 10th of it, the rest spills into other markets and has enormous consequence.
I think he was there also to deliver a warning together with Secretary Yellen's visit that China's support for the reconstruction of the Russian
defense establishment is going to have consequences beyond the Ukraine conflict in terms of Europe's longer-term security.
And, you know, I think in one other area that you started off with, there are concerns that China will be tempted to play in our elections. And I
think that's why Blinken gave a very categorical message that China needs to stay out.
[18:35:00]
CHATTERLEY: I think that's a beautiful way to describe the overcapacity problem, though, in very simple terms. It doesn't work if you're producing
a third of the world's capacity and only consuming a 10th of it, because there's your imbalance, first and foremost.
The question for me is, where's the or else? And what does it look like? Don't interfere in the U.S. presidential elections or else the situation
with Russia, in particular, as you said, and the provision of reindustrializing their capacity and the support that they've seen
financially with energy purchases as well, what's the or else, Rick? And does it come before the presidential elections?
Because I think both sides see China is a way to sort of beat their chest politically. The question is, does it follow through with policy?
WATERS: Well, look, we've had periods of stability under the Biden administration that had been unsettled by events big and small. I mean,
that includes the balloon, which, you know, upset things just over a year ago before Blinken's last trip to Beijing.
But my own feeling is that the way in which the U.S. avoids that scenario is by sending these signals up front, the or else will be X. And in this
case, take the example of Russia. Last December, the Treasury Department creates a new sanctions regime. They don't use it. And then going into
Blinken's visit, they steadily start to bleed out the specifics of their concerns. The fact that machine tools, microelectronics, nitrocellulose,
which is a component of rocket propellants, these are all flowing from China to Russia. So, they start to signal that they will use sanctions if
it continues.
And I think what they're trying to do is to affect the behavior of Chinese firms and authorities to dial back on those shipments. But if it doesn't
work, I think we'll see sanctions. And that's basically what Blinken said.
CHATTERLEY: Very quickly, pre-election or after?
WATERS: Well, you know, I think a lot depends on what the Chinese do. And so, we still have seven months. But my guess is that we're going to see
tariffs, that's almost assured. I think we will always see some level of additional sanctions and entities listings or export controls.
But I think the relationship is likely to stay within certain bounds through the election, because I think both China and Washington, for their
own reasons, don't want it to get fully out of control.
CHATTERLEY: Yes, for economics and politics on the other side. Rick Waters, great to chat to you, sir. Thank you.
And coming up, internet in space. Future astronauts might be able to live stream their trips outside Earth's atmosphere and much more. And that's
riding on the success of a planned lunar test from NASA and Nokia. They'll join us next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[18:40:00]
CHATTERLEY: Welcome back to FIRST MOVE. One day you might be able to post from Pluto or scroll through X on Saturn. Well, that's if Nokia and NASA
have their way. The Finnish telecoms company is teaming up with the U.S. Space Agency to install a first ever 4G network on the moon. They hope to
carry out a test later this year with the ultimate aim of providing astronauts with cell service by the time they return to the moon later this
decade.
Currently, astronauts communicate by radio, so it was a big shift. 4G would allow them to send things like high resolution video and data back to
Earth. Now, for years, science fiction has dreamed about what talking with someone in space might be like. As you can see with this clip from 2001 "A
Space Odyssey." Not so easy.
All this might sound a little high flying, but it also has some big implications closer to home. If they succeed in a hostile space
environment, the lessons might carry over to tough climates and locations back here on Earth. I'm excited to say I'm joined now by Bernie Edwards of
NASA's Space Technology Mission Directorate and Thierry Klein, the president of Solutions Research at Nokia Bell Labs. Gentlemen, fantastic to
have you on the show.
Thierry, I'm going to come to you first. Just give us your lunar economy mission because mission -- vision because, obviously, communications is key
to that.
THIERRY E. KLEIN, PRESIDENT, NOKIA BELL LABS SOLUTIONS RESEARCH: Yes, absolutely. Thank you, Julia. We absolutely believe that advanced
communication capabilities are critical for any future space exploration. The Artemis program could bring astronauts and humans back to the lunar
surface as well as the future lunar economy.
When you think about human presence on the moon, the astronauts need voice, video, data communication. We think about robotic applications, whether
it's for transportation, mining and so forth. And all of these applications really require the advanced communication technology that we have developed
as a telecom industry.
And so, we're excited to partner with NASA to demonstrate that we can take these technologies that you and I use every day, that we use to make phone
calls on our smartphones, connect to the internet, download videos, images, and so forth, that we can take those technologies into space and support
NASA's future missions.
CHATTERLEY: And, Bernie, from the NASA perspective, it does feel like something you could do yourselves if you wanted to invest the time and the
money. But, again, as we keep seeing, it's better to use the private sector for efficiency purposes and use the technology that's already established.
What kind of shift will this mean in space compared to what we are and have today?
BERNIE EDWARDS, NASA SPACE TECHNOLOGY MISSION DIRECTORATE: Yes. And thank you for having me on. And I think NASA's plan for the future is to rely on
commercial technologies and commercial companies as much as possible.
So, you know, there's a lot of smart people, expertise out in the commercial world. There's a lot of investments made. And so, we're trying
to go back to the moon and do it in a way that can be sustained over a long period and eventually support sustained human presence and
industrialization.
So, as Thierry mentioned, you know, think of mining and things like that on the moon. And the best way to do that is with commercial technology where
we can basically buy what we can and only design and invent something new if we have to. So -- and this is a perfect example where we want to use
commercial communications technology to further our goals.
CHATTERLEY: Theirry, explain the unit that you're actually building, because this is something that's got to work in a pretty harsh environment,
extreme temperatures, it's got to face radiation, it's got to get to space, first and foremost, and I guess be operated without human technical
capabilities or a technician actually there.
KLEIN: Yes, absolutely. So, it starts with a Nokia product that we've used, but then, ultimately, we need to adapt it to the environment for
space. We need to build it just for the right size of the capacity and the amount -- the number of users we need to support, which is initially quite
small. But then, most importantly, we need to do really a lot of engineering to reduce the size, weight and power, which are primary
considerations when you go into space.
But as you said, we also need to adapt it for the extreme temperature, radiation. All the harsh environments, including the launch and on the
rocket and then the landing on the moon. And then, most importantly, it's also a network that will be deployed very far from Earth, where we don't
have technicians that can operate and configure this network. So, it has to operate completely autonomously without any human intervention.
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CHATTERLEY: Yes, And that's a critical part of this as well. Bernie, the obvious question is, give me a sense of timing. And I know obviously it
relies on Thierry and the team there to sort of develop and adapt this technology. But you are hoping to do a test this year, and I mentioned in
the introduction, sort of Artemis and getting back on the moon is the ultimate aim at some point this century, but that means research,
development, time, and pressure, but also, the financials matter at this moment too, clearly.
EDWARDS: Absolutely. So, we're looking forward to demonstration with intuitive machines, hopefully by the end of this year. All of the cellular
equipment has been -- is ready to go. So, it's just a question of when we're going.
And then, after that, we're looking -- we're -- I'm hoping that there's going to be a technology demonstration on Artemis 3, which is the first
landing with humans since Apollo. We have proposals from companies to do a technology demonstration, and we're -- I'm hoping that that'll be chosen by
NASA.
So, it -- sometimes it does come down to what needs to be done on the mission. There's only so much mass and power available. There's only so
much time with the astronauts. And of course, there's only so much money. So, we need to figure all that out.
But if you look at our long-term plans, again, where we want to have eventually a base on the moon, and they didn't do -- I'll say, a lot of
commercial operations, you're going to need communications. You're going to need power, and you're going to need communications, and you're going to
need navigation and timing to do anything. And I think this is a great first step. And I think this is a great technology. And I would like to see
it expand really be the focal point on the lunar surface.
CHATTERLEY: Yes. And, Thierry, I have about a minute left as well. Is your research and development going to keep up with that? Are you going to have
the product ready?
KLEIN: Yes, absolutely.
CHATTERLEY: We're counting on you.
KLEIN: We're ready to go, as Bernie said. We're waiting for a number of other pieces to come together, our equipment being integrated with the
spacecraft, the other mission partners. But from a communication perspective, we're ready to go later this year and deploy this first
cellular network on the moon.
CHATTERLEY: Yes, it's going to be fascinating. And as I mentioned, the hope is that this ultimately -- for those that are wondering why we're
worrying about space and not sort of developing those that don't have good enough connectivity on the ground, it could have useful applications back
on the ground too if we can get this going.
Guys, come back and talk to me when we're ready for the test. Fantastic to have you on and hear what you're doing. Thank you, once again, for you
time.
EDWARDS: Thank you.
KLEIN: Thank you very much.
CHATTERLEY: Bernie Edwards of NASA Space Technology Mission Directorate and Thierry Klein, president of solutions research at Nokia Bell labs.
Thank you both.
All right, coming up on FIRST MOVE, hoping to take miss universe to help change the world. The woman looking to shatter age barriers in the world of
beauty. That's next.
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CHATTERLEY: Welcome back to FIRST MOVE. Saturday marks 30 years since the historic election that brought Nelson Mandela to power in post-apartheid
South Africa. It was a time of great hope for the future, but 30 years later, economic inequality still plagues the nation and crime and
corruption are major problems. David McKenzie reflects on all the challenges ahead of next month's critical elections.
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(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DAVID MCKENZIE, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Liberation icon Seth Mazibuko lived the painful history of this country.
SETH MAZIBUKO, SOUTH AFRICAN LIBERATION ICON: Students were coming from that direction and police are coming from that direction.
That morning of June 16, 1976 this was when the students who are marching peacefully, they were raising their hands and fingers of peace, they were
given bullets.
MCKENZIE (voice-over): Protesting the apartheid state and its racist education system.
MAZIBUKO: I still feel guilty today that I lead students and children out of the classroom to be killed.
MCKENZIE (voice-over): Their sacrifice and the sacrifices of later generations help toppled the violent apartheid state, birthing a peaceful
democratic South Africa, the rainbow nation where everyone can vote. But for Mazibuko, 30 years on the rainbow has faded.
MCKENZIE: Has the leadership of this country respected the sacrifices that you've made.
MAZIBUKO: Sold out.
MCKENZIE: Sold out.
MAZIBUKO: Many of the leaders that were supposed to be leading, they left this community. They left the very people that they are fighting for.
MCKENZIE: When thousands of students were bravely marching down these streets, they were fighting for a better future for South Africa. But
decades later, here's a staggering statistic. More than 80 percent of Great Falls cannot read.
Has it gotten worse over the 18 years of you being at the school?
PRINCE MULWELA, TEACHER, MORRIS ISAACSON HIGH SCHOOL: Yes, it's becoming worse and worse.
MCKENZIE (voice-over): At Morris Isaacson High School, famous for its role in '76 teachers like Prince Mulwela say that jobs in education are given to
the politically-connected and corruption is rife.
Primary students now come to his classes un prepared, he says. Corruption watchdogs call it a silent crisis.
MULWELA: We're living in a world in South Africa where it's all about politics. Everything has been politicized. So, the education system is also
been politicized. So, that is the reason why, probably why it's raising such problems.
ATLEGANG ALCOCK, STUDENT, MORRIS ISAACSON HIGH SCHOOL: I feel honored being in the school because then I get to learn about history.
MBALI MSIMANGA, STUDENT, MORRIS ISAACSON HIGH SCHOOL: Some put their lives in danger for better future, for better education.
MCKENZIE (voice-over): I spoke to two leading students at Morris Isaacson. They are proud of their school, but acutely aware of the challenges that
lie ahead.
MCKENZIE: Is there enough opportunity for young people like yourselves in this country?
ALCOCK: Right now? No.
MSIMANGA: It's going to be a struggle. Yes, and it is scary for us to be sitting at home and doing nothing.
ALCOCK: Especially when you know that you're going to university for so long and you have a degree, the qualification, but you're still struggling
to get a job because of the unemployment rates.
MCKENZIE: Those rates are some of the world's highest, an uncertain future despite the bitter struggles of the past.
David McKenzie, CNN, Soweto.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CHATTERLEY: And moving on to the future stars of the NFL in lights in the United States on Thursday night, and five of the top 10 picks were
quarterbacks, setting an NFL draft record. The Chicago Bears selected Caleb Williams with the number one pick rounds two and three of the draft up in
around 10 minutes time.
And now, from American football to real football, cheeky, Spain's Real Madrid inching closer to the title in La Liga. They just beat Real Sociedad
one-nil. Meanwhile, Liverpool has reportedly found Jurgen Klopp's successor. Patrick Snell joins us now. You know what story I want to talk
about, Patrick. Tell me more.
PATRICK SNELL, CNN WORLD SPORT: You do. Real football or Real football?
CHATTERLEY: Naughty.
SNELL: We'll get to Real Madrid in a minute. Yes, naughty indeed. We do continue to watch the developments at Liverpool. I know you're very excited
about this because who is going to be the next manager of Liverpool Football Club after Jurgen Klopp announced earlier this season he'd be
leaving at the end of the current campaign.
Well, on Friday, this is significant, because we got multiple reports claiming the Premier League giants and Feyenoord, the Dutch club side, now
agreeing on a compensation package that will allow, in theory, the Dutchman Arne Slot to replace Klopp at Anfield.
Now, what do we know about Slot? Well, 45 years of age. He has good pedigree in his homeland. He led his team to the Eredivisie Crown last
season and the Dutch Cup this season. They're not going to be champions of Holland, though, this season. Slot had previously been linked to the
Tottenham and the Celtic jobs before signing an extension.
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Exciting times, I will say this, Julia, for Liverpool fans. Slot is well known for his engaging personality. Who does that remind you of? Yes,
Jurgen Klopp. And attacking style of play as well developing young talented players.
But I will say this, Julia, it's going to be very, very difficult in the top flight of English football. Initially, I would -- if anything like the
experiences of Eric ten Hag are unfolding at Manchester United right now.
CHATTERLEY: Exactly. I cannot wait. It's all very exciting. Patrick, great to chat to you. Thank you so much for that.
All right. And finally, on FIRST MOVE, beauty beyond boundaries. This is Alejandra Rodriguez, who is aiming to make history by representing
Argentina in the Miss Universe pageant at the tender age of 60 years old.
The lawyer and journalist has already won Miss Universe Buenos Aires and will compete in the Miss Argentina pageant next month.
It's the first time Miss Universe has scrapped an upper age limit. Rodriguez says she wants to showcase a new paradigm for beauty pageants,
one that celebrates the values of women as much as it does their appearance.
And a very quick final -- and finally it's my father's birthday today. Happy birthday, Dad. I cannot wait to give you a big hug tomorrow, which
means to everyone else, have a wonderful weekend and I will see you in a week's time. Thank you for joining us.
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