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First of All with Victor Blackwell

Support For Ukraine In Limbo After Oval Office Meeting Unravels; Tribal University Reeling From Fed Orders To Cut Workforce; Women's Basketball Coach Sticks With Team Despite No Pay As Trump Admin Orders Impact Tribal University. "Exonerated Five" Member Eyes New York City Council Seat; Warner Bros. Discovery Rebrands DEI Efforts As "Inclusion"; The President's Marine Band Cancels DEI Concert. Aired 8-9a ET

Aired March 01, 2025 - 08:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:01:04]

VICTOR BLACKWELL, CNN ANCHOR: First of all, should we have seen that Oval Office blow up? I mean, it's going to take time for the real consequences of President Trump's chaotic Oval Office meeting with Ukraine's president to set in. But right now, it's hard not to feel like I'm describing some bad public breakup. The United States tells Ukraine, you never say thank you. Ukraine tells the U.S. that, hey, your man is lying to you.

And then President Trump responds with the equivalent of he wouldn't do that. You don't know him like I do. All the way down to new reporting that reveals that one issue that set off the president was the way that Volodymyr Zelenskyy was dressed.

President Trump ended the meeting by noting that it would all make great television. And then they kicked the Ukrainians out of the White House. These scenes and the yelling and the finger pointing that really would fit in a soap opera if not for the reality that right now Russia is still attacking Ukraine daily. And we're three years into an invasion that has killed tens of thousands of Ukrainians and forever changed many more. And Europe and the free world now left asking, is the U.S. still on our side?

Here's where the president says he stands after all that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We're not going to keep fighting. You're going to get the war done or let them go and see what happens. Let them fight it out.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLACKWELL: Our guests on this have unique perspectives. Major General Dana Pittard served in the U.S. Army, including multiple tours in Iraq. He's an author of "Hunting the Caliphate." And Terrell Jermaine Starr is a journalist who was in Ukraine covering the war when Russia first invaded. He's the host of "Black Diplomats" on YouTube and joins us from Kyiv. Gentlemen, welcome to you.

General, let me start with you. The president said it was good for the world to see this. What do you say?

MAJ. GENERAL DANA PITTARD, U.S. ARMY (RET.): Well, good morning, Victor. The whole thing was regrettable. One word really comes to mind, and that's grace. And it's really the graciousness of a host. In this case, it was the president of the United States and the vice president of United States being gracious hosts, and they need to be.

They weren't, especially to a visiting dignitary, a duly elected president and an ally of Ukraine who's been brutally attacked by Russia over the last three years. They weren't supposed to last six weeks, but in fact, they've lasted three years with our assistance and assistance of others. And I also think of grace as a guest. President Zelenskyy took the bait, unfortunately, and I think regrettably went down into the pettiness lane of President Trump and Vice President Vance. So, it is regrettable.

And now we need to move on from there.

BLACKWELL: Terrell, I see you shaking your head. What's going on?

TERRELL JERMAINE STARR, INDEPENDENTJOURNALIST COVERING UKRAINE: Well, greetings from Kyiv. And greetings to you, General. One part I don't agree with at all, it's this notion that Zelenskyy fell for debate. This was a setup from the beginning. And no matter what Zelenskyy would have done, there would have been a reason for Donald Trump to say that Zelenskyy was disrespectful. There was nothing that Zelenskyy could have done had he not shown up, the Trump administration would have made an argument about why he didn't show up and how he was showing a lack of gratefulness.

If you put him as -- if you put up trip wires, you put up enough of explosive devices in front of someone, you're going to trip one of them. I think we need to spend less time putting pressure on Zelenskyy for having the dignity to show up to somebody who really had no good intentions from the beginning and really focus on Donald Trump, the person who acted like a petulant child in front of the White House and embarrassing.

But I'll tell you, being here in Ukraine, I've been paying attention to a lot of Ukrainian news media as well as Ukrainian social media, even the people who don't like him at all, even the YouTube channels that have constantly criticized Zelenskyy, they're all standing in support of him. Because one thing is clear for them is that they no longer see Ukraine -- I'm sorry, the United States, as a reliable partner, and they see a break from the European security structure and they realize that they're on their own. And finally, this question about continuing to fight in a ceasefire, there's no appetite here. I've read all the polls, I've traveled around the country, and one thing is clear, the Ukrainians have one thing that they understand, if we stop fighting, that means that five years from now, three years from now, more people are going to die later or more people are going to die now. We either fight and keep going, or we don't fight and we give up our state.

[08:05:49]

And so there's this notion that there's a better option, when in fact, there isn't.

BLACKWELL: General, let me ask you about the reporting we have. Zelenskyy is going to meet with the U.K. Prime Minister Starmer today. There is this summit tomorrow. What can Europe do now to bring the president, President Trump, back into the circle? They've already done all of the diplomacy to set up what was supposed to happen yesterday. Is there anything they can do to reconcile?

PITTARD: There are things Europe can do. But let me just address something that was said. I mean, this was really a photo op. I -- you know, I used to work in the White House. All President Zelenskyy had to do was just be silent at that point, knowing that there was a pettiness of the president or anything else, just be silent and make his points in private.

The strategic reason why he was there was to get the support of the United States, sign the deal, get the support of United States. So, I just want to make sure that's clear that that's something President Zelenskyy could have done overall.

Now, as far as Europe in supporting Ukraine, they can continue to support Ukraine both politically, diplomatically and militarily. It will be much more difficult without the overt support of the U.S. and that's definitely regrettable. But Ukraine can still survive, and it'll be tough, but it can still survive with the support of a united Europe.

BLACKWELL: So, General, let me ask you. You said that Zelenskyy, all he had to do was be silent and have this conversation in private. But we saw when President Macron was at the White House with President Trump, he corrected him when he said that Europe was going to be repaid. We saw that the U.K. prime minister corrected the president when he said that Europe was getting its money back. When Vice President Vance said that this is diplomacy, and President Zelenskyy said, rightfully, we had a deal on a ceasefire, he didn't keep it.

We had a deal on exchange for prisoners, he didn't keep it. You say that was out of line, even considering the context of what we've seen this week from other European leaders who were allowed to correct the president when he was wrong?

PITTARD: Victor, what he said was correct, but it's when you say it, you say it in private. You don't embarrass or even attempt to embarrass the president or vice president like that. Again, he was just responding to it. The person who was wrong here was Vice President Vance, in my mind. However, President Zelenskyy could rise above that and make his points in private.

BLACKWELL: Terrell, let me come to you, one last thing. You told one of my producers that there's a through line -- you know what, I'm abandoning my question because I wanted to see what is this emotion that you're having right now in reaction to what you're hearing?

STARR: Listen, this is -- I want to get directly to this rule line that I think that you're going to get to. Look, we spend more time putting pressure on the oppressed person and the person who is being constantly bombed. Look, all of us on Twitter and social media and who are not in President Zelenskyy's position, who is in charge of a country, we are 100 percent confident that we would have done a better job than him, albeit we are not in his shoes. So I think that it's pretty insulting to point to a man who comes as a diplomat to the United States of America expects the common decency of a world leader to be civil. And so we're asking a leader of a country that's undergoing war insulting him by saying that he didn't dress properly.

Come on. The fact -- I live here, no one dresses in a suit here. Let's just get that first. Let's get the first thing started. But above all, this is us accepting petulance, accepting childishness.

And I know this doesn't sound like a heavy, deep political analysis, but I think that we're beyond that at this point. We are giving a lot of rope to a petulant child. And we're giving -- and this is this -- and this is the type of behavior that we only accept from white men. We would never accept Obama behaving like this. We would never accept a possible Kamala Harris behaving like this.

[08:10:10]

We give this and a lot this foolishness to white and competent men. And this through line that I'm bringing down to you is that the main point is this is the way that Donald Trump has been treating black people and people of color for the past four or five years and then his first term. What he's doing to Ukrainians is xenophobic. His rhetoric towards Ukrainians has always been, you are ungrateful, you are not doing enough, you're not giving enough. He has that same attitude towards black people.

The only difference with the Ukrainians is that he does not have an ethnic slur to have for Ukrainians. But if he did, he would have given it. So I think that we really need to take a step back and really understand what this is. And it's xenophobia. And if we continue to give license and give rope to Donald Trump, then we're just excusing petulance and bad behavior.

BLACKWELL: Terrell Jermaine Starr, Major General Dana Pittard, thank you both for being with me and for the conversation.

Trump administration's cuts to the federal workforce and funding are having an impact far beyond Washington. We have the story of a tribal university that's pleading to keep their professors and staff, including the women's basketball coach who's getting ready for a semifinal game today. He joins us ahead.

Plus, he was a wrongly accused member of the Central Park Five and now the Exonerated Five. And he hopes soon a member of the New York City Council, Raymond Santana is here to talk about kicking off a political career.

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[08:16:22]

BLACKWELL: So I don't follow sports closely. You can probably tell from my hits with Andy Scholes and Coy Wire. But I'm told the Lakers and the Mavericks recently made the craziest trade in NBA history. Sure.

Well, today I've got my eye on the Continental Athletic Conferences Women's Basketball Championship. Why? I'll tell you. Because this afternoon the Haskell Indian Nations University's women's basketball team will compete in the semifinals. If they win, they'll play in the championship game tomorrow.

And as you may have guessed from the name of the university, all these student athletes are Native American women. It's a huge opportunity. But hanging over the team is the fact that their university is in crisis. In fact, their coach is currently leading the team for no pay. He's still coaching them despite losing his job a little more than two weeks ago. He lost his job because of the Trump administration's recent order laying off probationary workers.

And when the president claims he's going after bureaucrats, the ripple effect is impacting more than just Washington. It's impacting basketball.

Coach Adam Strom is one of nearly 40 employees. That's about 25 percent to 30 percent of the staff, the school says, had to be let go. Haskell depends on federal support and now they're trying to get a waiver.

The Haskell National Board of Regents posted a letter to Doug Burgum, Trump's secretary of Interior, and says, "Haskell is an important part of the federal government's commitment to enhancing the quality of life for Indian people. We of the Haskell Board of Regents ask you to relieve Haskell from the burden of losing its valuable personnel who help fulfill the school's important and legally required mission."

Let's hone in on that for a moment. The government has a legally required mission to help tribal universities like Haskell. To begin to understand why, here's important critical history. A recent article in the Kansas City Star newspaper explains Haskell's origins. "Founded by the U.S. army in 1884, Haskell was birthed from tragedy.

It was created as an Indian boarding school where children were removed from their parents and tribal nations to be stripped of their culture and heritage and assimilated into white America. Children died there. A graveyard for 103 children at the southern edge of the campus speaks to that legacy."

Today, Haskell says it welcomes more than 800 students every year to their campus in Kansas. And those young people represent nearly 150 Indian nations and tribes across the country. What's true with HBCUs is true with tribal universities. Haskell is underfunded and this could put their ability to stay open at risk.

The Haskell Foundation is now seeking donations with the hopes of raising $350,000. Included in what they are hoping to fund are temporary contract extensions for custodial staff and dining services and part time coaches.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MULTIPLE SPEAKERS: Hands on Haskell. Hands on Haskell.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLACKWELL: Well, this happened this week. Students protested outside the Kansas State Capitol. They're fighting for funding to be restored, not wanting to give up on their school just like their women's basketball coach is not giving up on the team. With us now is the Haskell women's basketball coach, Adam Strom, and one of his student athletes, Star Her Many Horses. Thank you both for being with me.

Coach, I want to start with you. It was February 14th, I believe it was, tell me what happened when you learned that you were unemployed.

[08:20:04]

COACH ADAM STROM, WOMEN'S BASKETBALL COACH, HASKELL INDIAN NATIONS UNIVERSITY: (Inaudible) Good morning. Good day. February 14th, just more than two weeks ago, I was called into the athletic director's office and I was told I was. My name was on a list, and that list was a termination list that was a trickle down effect from the Trump administration. And it was an executive order for probationary employment staff, and that I would be terminated effective that day. That would be my last payday.

BLACKWELL: And Star, when you heard this, what went through your mind? What was the team's reaction?

STAR HER MANY HORSES, HASKELL WOMEN'S BASKETBALL TEAM PLAYER: Honestly, it was pretty devastating to our team because of how much our coach means to us and how much we've grown as a team this year. So it was a real shock to know that he was a part of that order and that things had just changed so rapidly. Most of us were in shock at the time.

BLACKWELL: But, coach, you decided that although that was your last day being paid, that you were not going to leave the team. Why?

STROM: That decision was made without hesitation. The dedication that the entire program, the staff, the institution has provided, it was again, made without hesitation. And I wanted to take the stance that the termination was going to create determination on my part. And the dedication to fulfill a job was at the forefront. I couldn't walk away with the job not finished.

BLACKWELL: And I've read that your father was coach of a high school girls' basketball team for decades. What do these girls, these women mean to you? STROM: So I believe I'm living on a legacy. And my late father, Ted Strom, had coached for 30 years, and he coached females. He coached high school girls. And early on in my coaching career, my father said, someday you're going to make a great college coach. And that was written in a John Wooden Christmas gift, a book that he gave me.

So, again, I feel like I'm fulfilling a legacy and I'm living out my dad's wishes. And that's to make Native American youth not only better basketball players, but better individuals.

BLACKWELL: Star, as I said earlier, that the coach is not the only person impacted, 25 percent to 30 percent of the faculty and staff there. How has this impacted campus life and academics, aside from basketball?

HORSES: This has really put a halt on a lot of the activities we have here at Haskell. And just our entire college experience, really. There's been -- with the lack of staff that's around now, it's just really difficult for students to feel optimistic about the future and what the rest of our college experience will be like. But seeing all the efforts that people are making and the highlight that's been happening on our school is really hopeful and brings us a lot of hope that some good will come out of this and we'll still be --

BLACKWELL: Coach, last thing before we go. You got a family to provide for. I know you're volunteering now, but how long can you stay?

STROM: Yes, I do. I have three children that actually played basketball here at Haskell Indian Nations University on the men's team, and they will all be graduating. I have a wife who is a school administrator in the Topeka School District. And just, you know, the family support, you know, prayers offerings. And like Star alluded to, just the highlight with the Haskell Foundation, the Haskell community, the Native American community, there's no doubt in my mind that Coach Strom's going to be able to survive.

And that's strength in numbers, and that's strength Indian country, which we play for. And I -- the Native American community, the Indian country, is going to support Coach Strom. In turn, I'm going to provide them with the best of my expertise with coaching Native American women, lifelong characteristics.

BLACKWELL: All right, Coach Adam Strom and Star Her Many Horses, thank you so much for being with me. Good luck today in the game and we'll be following, of course, everything happening at Haskell.

[08:25:02]

Next, a member of the Exonerated Five now running for City Council in New York. He joins me next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLACKWELL: With all the drama in Washington, politics in New York is a mess too right now, New York City Mayor Eric Adams is fighting for his political survival and against corruption charges. The charges and the Trump administration's move to dismiss them have caused federal prosecutors and four of Adams deputy mayors to resign. City Council Speaker Adrienne Adams has called for his resignation, and now she's making moves to run against Adams in the November elections.

New York City Council campaigns are gearing up for June primaries, and my next guest just got in the race to represent parts of his native East Harlem and the Bronx. Raymond Santana, a member of the Exonerated Five, is with us. Raymond, good morning to you. Let me start with a one word question. Why? Why are you running?

RAYMOND SANTANA, "EXONERATED FIVE," MEMBER, NYC COUNCIL CANDIDATE: Good morning. Good morning. First off, good morning. You know, we up early this morning getting ready to hit the campaign trail, run out there and get signatures.

But the reason why is because, you know, my community has stood behind me through the thick and thin. They have seen me get convicted. They see me exonerated. They've seen this wind of civil suit. And so, you know, for me, my community has always stuck by me throughout the ups and downs. And so it's only right that I stick to them through these hard times, you know, when I see the community and how the conditions are.

BLACKWELL: Yusef Salaam, as we all know, another one of the Exonerated 5, he ran for city council and won, I think it was, back in 2023. Have you reached out to him? Y'all had any conversations about this run?

SANTANA: Constantly. We constantly talks about this run because this run is very important. You know, Yusef Salaam was 15. I was 14 in 1989. And so to see us progress through these steps, you know, it's kind of, you know, it's like a wild moment. It's a surreal moment, you know, that we get to fight, you know, if I'm elected to city council, we get to be on the same team once again and fight for the communities. So it's awesome. It's just awesome.

BLACKWELL: For those people who don't know your story, in the late 80s and 90s, you were one of five black and brown teens who were wrongfully convicted, sentenced for the rape of a white woman in Central Park. Later, you were exonerated fully. I wonder, does that experience, do you believe, inform the run, inform the work that you hope to do?

SANTANA: I believe it does. You know, the community, like I stated, they have watched us throughout the years. I'm from East Harlem, so I'm, you know, East Harlem in the Bronx. I have strong ties to it. And the community has sit there and they watch me throughout this experience, throughout these years, and they always been supportive.

So I definitely believe that it. They see themselves in me. This is also, you know, in a case that captivated America at the time. And so there's a connection there. There's a connection between me and the community. And it has been shown, you know, just in the last couple of days the support has been tremendous.

BLACKWELL: I read that you told the New York Times that, quote, those who have been closest to the pain should have a seat at the table. Last time you were on the show, I think it was about nine months ago, you were speaking to me from Georgia.

SANTANA: Yes.

BLACKWELL: Are you a resident of the district now in which you hope to represent?

SANTANA: Yes. Yes, I always been a resident of the district. Even while I was in Georgia. I was, you know, I pushed for legislation, you know, to interrogate -- interrogations in entirety. I always been pushing for bills. I always been proactive when it came to my advocacy with my community.

And so, yes, in order to take this step, I definitely have to be pulling 100 percent. And I am and the community feel that. So I'm definitely a resident of New York. I always been here.

BLACKWELL: All right, Raymond Santana, good to see you again. Thanks so much. And we'll be following your campaign.

SANTANA: Appreciate you. Thank you so much.

BLACKWELL: All right. A youth classical music concert canceled. And like a lot of things these days, the purge of DEI is why. Two young composers who were going to have their pieces performed formed by the U.S. Marine Band and a group of talented musicians of color are with us next.

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[08:38:21]

BLACKWELL: Well, for months now we've been covering the corporate retreat from diversity, not just programs. In some cases even the word. The latest change is from Warner Bros. Discovery, the parent company of CNN.

WBD announced a rebranding this week that focuses on inclusion as opposed to diversity, equity and inclusion. They framed it as an evolution while continuing our legacy of inclusion. What does that mean? Well, of course, I asked.

A WBD spokesperson tells me that the company will continue to sponsor and participate in minority focused journalism conferences like the National Association of Black Journalists.

I asked about WBD's partnership with the Entertainment Industry College Outreach Program, which works with HBCUs. They said that outreach to students will continue. I asked about the WBD Access Writers Program. It's a pathway for writers who face barriers to entering careers in screenwriting. And I was told, quote, that has been an important development program for writers of all backgrounds and will we anticipate continuing it.

Now, it's not just corporate mission statements that are being impacted. Last week we told you about the cancellation of a parade honoring Frederick Douglass featuring the Maryland National Guard. A week before that we told you about how military recruiters canceled their appearance at a conference for black engineers. Well, this weekend we have the story of a youth concert.

On May 4th, there was supposed to be a performance featuring students of color from an organization known as Equity Arc and the President's Own United States Marine Band. Equity Arc says the concert had been called off because of the military under the Trump administration's barring of participating in events seen to be tied to DEI.

[08:40:04]

Now Equity Arc announced the cancellation in a post saying this program was set to bring together over 30 extraordinary pre college musicians from across the country who earned their spots through a competitive audition process. They were to receive mentorship from Marine Band musicians and perform a powerful program celebrating diverse voices in music.

They added to the students, families and educators impacted by this decision. We see you, we support you, and we will continue to fight for spaces where your artistry is valued.

Two composers who were supposed to have their pieces performed are with us. Kevin Charoensri, whose piece is titled "Rising Light" and Carlos Simon, whose piece is titled "Sweet Chariot." Carlos is also a Grammy nominated composer in residence at the Kennedy Center. Let me start with you, Carlos.

When you heard, and first thank you both for being with me. When you heard that this was canceled, what did you feel for the students and for yourself?

CARLOS SIMON, COMPOSITION "SWEET CHARIOT" WAS TO BE PERFORMED: Well, thank you so much for having me. I honestly was so heartbroken. You know, I use my music as a means of bringing people together. That's been my mission and, you know, to have my piece which is about bringing people together. It quotes the spiritual African American spiritual "Swing Low, Sweet Chariot," as well as this "Gregorian Chant," plain chant from the Catholic Church.

And both of those pieces are about the afterlife which we all experience in some way. And the piece was really meant to bring people together. So I've always used my platform for that, for unity. And so to have my piece canceled, I felt like it was a missed opportunity for not only for me, but as a composer, but also for the students to share an experience that we all have.

BLACKWELL: Yes. Kevin, your piece, the piece you composed is called "Rising Light." Let's listen to a little of it.

And that's just a small piece. Talk to me about the inspiration because I think that element of the story is interesting. What inspired you to write it?

KEVIN CHAROENSRI, COMPOSITION "RISING LIGHT" WAS TO BE PERFORMED: For sure. Thank you so much for having me. This was inspired after the post COVID Asian hate of roughly 2020 to 2022. And I wanted to find a way to peacefully protest through music, through complex harmony, through rhythm, through, but also through the most simple things such as a stomp or a clap. I wanted there to be accessibility for peaceful protests for Asian Americans who are quietly protesting or loudly protesting literally with stumps and claps.

BLACKWELL: Carlos, as I mentioned, you were a composer in residence at the Kennedy Center. The president fired members of the board of trustees a couple of weeks ago. There were some high profile cancellations of performances. The president appointed himself the board chair. I wonder what your thought is on this broader residual impact of politics on the arts.

SIMON: Well, it's very concerning, to say the least. I know that many of my colleagues who, you know, are of color, namely black composers, are concerned. But, you know, I like to subscribe to the quotes philosophy that music should reflect the times in which we live.

And, you know, many of my colleagues and I will continue to do that. And of course, I'm fortunate to have, you know, the Kennedy Center as a platform and that will continue to use that platform as a -- to write my music.

But, you know, this is deeply concerning, but you know, we have to reflect the times in which you live through my music and again, use my music as a platform for helping others to see themselves through the art and just kind of show up, you know, and make hopefully good music that people will enjoy and see themselves.

BLACKWELL: Kevin, this was canceled, this partnership with Equity Arc as a result of the order purging anything related to DEI and the president has cast DEI as the opposite of meritocracy.

[08:45:05]

Describe for us, I mean, these students are the best and competed and this was a process of meritocracy, was it not, to even get to participate with the U.S. Marine Band.

CHAROENSRI: Well, I think that merit is something that is really -- that really needs to be highlighted here. I think that as someone who's only 21, only about four years out of high school, I share this connection with them of I know what it took. I was only in their shoes four years ago playing clarinet in bands and doing the honor band cycle in Southern California. It's a slightly different geographical location.

But I know what it took and I know what it took for me to get on this program as a very young composer at 21 and a senior in undergrad, apparently. I know that were on this program, Carlos and I know that these students had the pleasure of potentially collaborating with them all because of merit and nothing to do with the quota or DEI.

BLACKWELL: Kevin, I'll stay with you for this last question. This was supposed to be a learning experience for the students to be with these fantastic musicians in the U.S. Marine Band. What do you think they learned, if anything, with the cancellation?

CHAROENSRI: I think that this is a tough lesson, that you can be incredible, you can be dedicated and you can have everything right, but you sometimes are just caught in the wrong part of history. And to that I just say students all around the nation, please keep being dedicated. Please keep pursuing your education. Keep practicing. Please keep your head up.

BLACKWELL: Kevin Charoensri and Carlos Simon, thank you so much.

And when this story popped up on my feed this week, I had to get the backstory why a former dean and an artist teamed up to create a very different law school portrait. First, though, as we go to break, I want to play a bit of Carlos's composition "Sweet Chariot" from a previous performance.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:52:08]

BLACKWELL: When a law school dean steps down from their role, they're typically given the honor of a portrait. But at St. Louis University School of Law, the newest portrait looks very different from the others.

For our latest edition of Art is Life. This week I spoke with former dean William Johnson and artist Cbabi Bayoc about why they came together to send a message that a lot of schools across the country are backing away from.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WILLIAM JOHNSON, FORMER DEAN, SAINT LOUIS UNIVERSITY SCHOOL OF LAW: I'm William Johnson. I'm the former dean of St. Louis University School of Law. I'm located currently in Madrid, Spain.

CBABI BAYOC, PAINTER: Cbabi Bayoc based in St. Louis, Missouri and I'm a painter, illustrator and muralist.

JOHNSON: I have been with Saint Louis University for 13 years. I served as dean of the School of Law for almost eight of those years. The tradition at many U.S. law schools is for a portrait to be create and the history of the law school is such that it's a wall almost exclusively of white men.

I thought about that history and the message that it sends to our students and my colleagues in the community regarding notions of what law school leadership looks like. I had initially made the decision not to do it.

It occurred to me one day that the portrait itself could be a point of departure and an act of resistance to the tradition of exclusion and white supremacist. And so I reached out to Cbabi because I was familiar with his art and the justice oriented nature of it.

BAYOC: At first I was just like, I don't even know how this is going to work because I don't paint anything like that. But when we read this and what he wanted to do with it, there's no way we could, you know, turn it down.

I just thought about, you know, what his room and bookshelf might look like. And so I had a little wood sculpture fist on the top shelf. We have a series with Cbabi's all-stars with kids with a fist up. And he wanted one of those as a statue on a bookshelf. And then just based on his readings, I just went online and looked up all banned books and books that looked like they would fit around subjects around Saint Louis. There were some moments I was like, they're really going to hang this. I just had to go for it. Like, there's no reason to do anything in hesitancy.

JOHNSON: I love the message, I love the symbols, I love the color. I love every aspect of it that is resistance.

BAYOC: It definitely is a break. I love that it will tell the story that everybody didn't fall in line with, whatever the administration and the climate was trying to put on people's hearts.

JONHSON: The law school specifically is part of a profession that is supposed to be committed to justice, principles of equal justice, and rule of law.

[08:55:00]

And the portrait is one powerful example of a turning point that is possible at Saint Louis University School of Law and beyond.

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BLACKWELL: Former Dean Johnson points out that as unique as his portrait is, the next one's going to be even more unprecedented at their law school. That's because the current dean of the law school is Dr. Twinette Johnson, no relation.

At its portrait unveiling, the former dean said the addition of her portrait will be a moment long overdue and it makes his heart burst with joy. If you see something or someone I should see, tell me. I'm on Instagram, TikTok, X and Bluesky. And if you missed a conversation, check out our show's website. You can listen to our show as a podcast.

Thank you for joining me today. Have a blessed Ramadan. Smerconish is up next after the break.

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