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First of All with Victor Blackwell

What Trump Says Beautiful "African American Ladies" Are Asking For; Trump Says Chicago Next Up For Federal Crime Crackdown; TX Senate Passes Trump-Backed Congressional District Map Favoring GOP; GOV to Sign. Aired 8-9a ET

Aired August 23, 2025 - 08:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[08:01:05]

VICTOR BLACKWELL, CNN ANCHOR: Well, first of all, you'll need to take him at his word for this one. But President Trump says that he may expand his federal law enforcement takeover of cities because the beautiful black ladies of Chicago are asking for it. His words.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT: The people in Chicago, Mr. Vice President, are screaming for us to come. They're wearing red hats, just like this one, but they're wearing red hats. African American ladies, beautiful ladies are saying, "Please, President Trump, come to Chicago, please." I did great with the black vote, as you know, and they want something to happen.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLACKWELL: So if President Trump's crime crackdown does turn to Chicago next, expect to hear more about those screaming black ladies. At the same time, President Trump says he's listening to black voters in Chicago. But in D.C., some black residents, ladies and gentlemen, say they welcome help to make their communities safer, but they're not seeing that increased presence in their neighborhoods.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sometimes I can get into some action that's not even called for, and sometimes it can be a good thing because of the crime in D.C. It is crime here. So we do probably need extra protection out here. They should be deployed all over the city if he's going to deploy them, not just in one area. This looks a little like window dressing to me.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLACKWELL: President Trump also claims that he's already solved D.C.'s crime problem. Yet he says it's still enough of a problem that National Guard troops in the District now need to be armed.

The contradictions this week do not end there or with this story. You see this morning, Texas Republicans passed new congressional maps with President Trump's backing. Democrats say the effort is racist and it's dangerous to democracy. Yet they plan to respond with a redistricting effort of their own. In California, the White House says it wants the Smithsonian to be fair when it comes to American history, yet not too much of that slavery part.

And the anti-diversity crowd claims that companies that go woke -- go broke. Yet Target's CEO is now on his way out of his role as sales dip after backlash to dropping DEI initiatives. There's a lot to talk about.

And joining us today is LaTosha Brown. She is the co-founder of the Black Voters Matter Fund. We also have Cory Ruth. He's worked on the GOP presidential campaigns of Mitt Romney and Carly Fiorina. He's also the CEO of Mergence Global. And Dr. Jamal Bryant is pastor of New Birth Missionary Baptist Church here in Atlanta. He helped start the Target FAST boycott effort, which we will discuss in a little bit. Welcome to you all.

LaTosha, let me start with you. Two weeks into the president's takeover in law enforcement, D.C. now suggesting he's going to Chicago next. Let me read for you the Chicago numbers

Police, their report last month that homicides are down 32 percent year to date. Shooting incidents down 37 percent to date. Robberies down 43 percent. Motor vehicle theft down 21 percent. Carjackings down 49 percent. Why is this the next place?

LATOSHA BROWN, CO-FOUNDER, BLACK VOTERS MATTER FUND: One, is happens to have a black mayor. You know, when you look at what happened in D.C. you're now in Chicago. All of the places that he named, even talked about Baltimore, he talked about Oakland. I think part of it is he actually weaponizes racism, and he understands that in this country, that's the go to tool that anytime you want to actually take away resources or rights, that what you do is you pull out this racism card.

In addition to that though, when you look at this is also about creating the culture of fear and chaos that he hopes that he can create this chaos and fear that ultimately there would be an over response, and in some way that he will have the opportunity to do overreach in these cities as we're seeing in Chicago. It doesn't make sense what he's saying. We're looking at -- we have record lows of 35 percent across the nation, 30 percent as the numbers that you raised.

And so what is this really about? If he was really serious about reducing crime, he would actually deal with the social determinants of crime that we know is poverty, we know that it's education, we know that it's around housing. But instead, he has this big ugly bill that he's passed that actually will actually exacerbate people in terms of poverty, particularly even in Chicago and places like that.

[08:05:19]

So I think we have to really understand this is political theater and about creating stoking chaos and fear.

BLACKWELL: Cory, if this is about crime, why is he going to these cities that have the drops in crime here. And what's the reference to these beautiful black ladies? I mean, he invokes race, we don't.

CORY RUTH, CEO, MERGENCE GLOBAL: The Beautiful Black Ladies reference is an organic, community-driven movement that's happening in Chicago, particularly led by black women like Kada Tross and Lauren Lawrence. And that movement started when they started seeing mayor -- the mayor prioritizing migrants over the black community, especially when they started to redirect local resources from the black community to the migrant communities. You started seeing closing down facilities to black access like rec centers, schools for migrant facilitation. So that's where that movement started. And those voices started rising. They started confronting the mayor and other city officials and city events.

BROWN: Yes, but this is really about the exploitation of, ultimately, black women overwhelmingly voted against Trump. And that when you're looking at your undermining this idea that you're exploiting this idea of, oh, there are black ladies that are calling me instead of really dealing with the real issues, it is like a shell of real issues that people are facing in Chicago right now.

RUTH: I think you have a mayor to deal with the broad challenges that city has. What the president is offering here is a force multiplier by providing federal resources. And remember, the federal government already has a law enforcement superstructure in all of these major cities, whether the FBI, the DEA, the ATF, the even park services in ICE. And what he's doing is offering those -- that infrastructure to these local mayors so that they can expand their reach.

BLACKWELL: And Pastor, let me get your thought on this.

PASTOR JAMAL BRYANT, LED TARGET BOYCOTT OVER RETAILER DROPPER DEI: Yes, it's a unnecessary offering. This is a technicolor birth of a nation to stoke fear of color. This is not about crime. It's about control. The reality is every city that he is targeted in has shown a drastic reduction in crimes in all capacities. It is an assault on leadership and courage.

My home city of Baltimore, Mayor Brandon Scott has done an amazing job. So rather than vilifying them, they should be taking notes. How are they reducing crime? Martin Luther King Jr. said that the bride of crime is poverty. Wherever you See poverty, there's going to be crime. So there's got to be job creation. There's got to be access to capital. And there's got to be a higher value in education.

And so what Donald Trump is doing is trying to really inflate the narrative that where black people are is dangerous and white people have to come in and corral them in order for there to be order. And it's an old playbook, and the game just won't play.

BLACKWELL: Let me just get Mayor Brandon Johnson of Chicago. He calls it uncoordinated, uncalled for, and unsound as well. Let me now move to -- this is the rest of his statement there. "Unlawfully deploying the National Guard to -- has the potential to inflame tensions between residents and law enforcement when we know that trust between police and residents is foundational to building safer communities." Let's talk about redistricting now, and Texas Senate, they have now passed this new map. They're sending it to Governor Greg Abbott, his guest, to get those five extra seats that the president asked for. California has now started their process to potentially get five extra Democratic lending seats to make this awash.

LaTosha, let me play something from you. This is 2019 in a conversation about gerrymandering.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: We've either left it up to the political parties, whether it's Democrat or Republicans, or it's been about the candidates. Right. And in either those circumstances, both of those entities are literally organizing or creating a framework or even the maps to support the maintaining of their power. We've got to shift that. We've got to shift that paradigm and create infrastructure that is about people having power.

I think we've got to call out, and we've got to be courageous enough to really hold accountable and not get caught up in the context of what is partisan, Democrat, or Republican. I'm standing here as an American. I'm standing here as a believer in democracy. And whether that is the Democratic Party or the Republican Party that is acting in a way that is marginalizing folks access to the ballot, we have to call that out.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

[08:10:05]

BLACKWELL: Now, your group is nonpartisan. So should Democrats do it just because Republicans have done it now?

BROWN: I think we need to do what needs to happen to protect democracy. At the end of the day, we're in a different era. Right. We can't pretend and act like what is happening right now, that we know that they're completely against the rules. There are no rules but what it appears around the Republican Party. And this is absolutely racial gerrymandering right in our face.

And so I think we have to do whatever we need to do, and those who are in power to protect democracy. So if there's whatever is good for the geese -- goose is good for the gander.

BLACKWELL: So does that 2019 sound bite not play today?

BROWN: I think that 2019 sound was based on the reality of 2019. We're in a different reality. We're in 2025, where we have a lawless administration that is seeking to marginalize the power, the voices of black and minority communities. They're snatching people up off the streets. We're seeing all kinds of things that are happening that undermine the very foundation of democracy in this country. And whatever it takes to protect the people. Right. Not the administration. We have to make sure that we're doing that in employment.

BRYANT: It's really dyslexic democracy. Democracy is supposed to be set up for the people to pick their leaders.

BROWN: That's right.

BRYANT: What we're seeing in Texas is leaders are picking their people. And so two African Americans, three Latino leaders are now not even living in the district that they serve. And so what it is that Governor Newsom is doing is trying to level the playing field. And let's not forget President Trump said to Governor Abbott, he deserves those seats.

This is trying to rig the election for 2026. And so we've got to make sure that everybody's voice matters. We're it is that LaTosha has been endeavoring to do pre-2019 is making black people rest assured that this is not the new poll tax. You won't be able to find it in museums much anymore, but there was a time where you had to recite the whole Constitution. You had to say how many bubbles were in a soap bar.

We're going back to that era. Black people, Latino people, ostracized people are very concerned. Will my vote matter if they're doing this? If he has all of the confidence of black women cheering for him, then you shouldn't have to rig the election.

BLACKWELL: Cory, here's the thing. Democrats have gerrymandered, right? We've seen it in Illinois. We've seen it in other places, but not in the middle of a decade. It usually comes right after the census and not at the request of the sitting president.

So if Republicans are so confident in the -- if the big beautiful bill is so big and beautiful, and that all that the president has done is the best that it has ever been, as he says, why change the rules mid- decade?

RUTH: Well, two things. First, you touched on it that redistricting is inherently an exercise in gerrymandering, especially when you're trying to get communities of interest. There isn't a state, there isn't a party. There isn't a period in history where we had clean districts that were made out of squares, rectangles, and triangles. These are gerrymandered districts.

Every district in America is a gerrymandered district. What's new about this is the timing to your point. Now, what Donald Trump is doing is playing smash mouth football. That is what Donald Trump is doing. He is running this ball right up the middle. And he is the only way to beat that kind of politics is, as my coach used to say, put a helmet on a helmet. And the Democrats, their response is performative. Everything that they do is performance and rhetoric.

And if you want to beat Trump, you're going to have to say what you want to do and actually do it. And that is why Trump is winning here.

BRYANT: And that's why California is doing it, is that we're putting on our shoulder pads and say, let's get ready to rumble.

BLACKWELL: All right, we got to pause the conversation right here. Dr. Jamal Bryant, LaTosha, and Cory, stay with us. More to talk about later in the show. I want you to hear from someone who shared a chilling warning this

week. She's a former FBI special agent who says there is real danger that's being missed in this crusade to purge DEI. Plus, I speak to an artist once celebrated by the Smithsonian whose work is now being singled out by the White House.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You know, I think being disapproved of by the current administration, I took that as a badge of, you know, of honor.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:19:16]

BLACKWELL: Is the real danger of the Trump administration's crusade against DEI being missed? You see, the FBI was one of the first agencies to shut down its Office of Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion, and that was eliminated days before President Trump took office in his second term.

Now a veteran FBI agent says ending DEI efforts are mistake that the agency cannot afford. L. Nicole Dunn finds the number of minority agents being pushed out shocking and calls the current state of the agency appalling. She shared this warning in a LinkedIn post this week.

"When the next attack happens, you should wonder what experienced agents will be there to pick up the pieces because there don't appear to be many left to prevent it. The new leadership is focused on the wrong thing. Stop worrying about race and gender and focus on what really matters."

[08:20:14]

Former FBI Supervisory Special Agent Dunn is with us now. Thank you for your time this morning.

You say the Bureau is in crisis and one of its own making. Pull that thread. Explain the crisis for me.

L. NICOLE DUNN, FORMER FBI SUPERVISORY SPECIAL AGENT: Good morning, Victor. It's good to be here with you and to be heard. I want to start out and preface by saying I am no longer with the FBI. I resigned effective at the end of July. I have no firsthand knowledge of any particular threats to the country.

My post was kind of, I didn't expect it to reach so far, but it was to spread light based upon what I've been hearing in the media. Having agents on streets performing as police officers when we were never trained to do so, it's a danger to those agents that are out there doing it. But not only that, it's detracting from our focus on what we are trained to do, which is to protect the nation, you know, on the national security front, and to take care of those matters that cross interstate lines between states with fraud.

And I think there is a real danger in taking the focus off of that. One of the major things that I notice, you know, I've worked National Security while with the FBI as well as white collar crimes. And my background is more suited for white collar crime.

But even while working National Security, my background, my financial background helped on the national security side because terrorism has to be funded. So to say that we no longer -- the FBI, no longer needs to focus on looking at finances and anything other than violent crime here in the US on the streets, is ludicrous.

BLACKWELL: Let me ask you more than a lack of recruitment of agents of color, as you point out, and the elimination of the DEI office. You write in your op ed quote, "To see the number of minority agents being pushed out when so few of us existed in the first place is disheartening and shocking." Tell me about that. That you believe that minority agents are being singled out and pushed out of the Bureau?

DUNN: I do believe that. It's for the percentage of minority agents that were in the Bureau, which is less than 5 percent when you combine men and women, excuse me, for the black FBI agents that are in the bureau, it's less than 5 percent. And then that number lowers with some of the other minority groups that are agents there. It's a disproportionate number that have been pushed out, that have been placed on leave.

I myself, was placed on unpaid leave in April this year and went without pay until, ultimately, I decided it was just too hostile of an environment for me to continue working in and resigned.

BLACKWELL: Do you believe that -- do you believe you were placed on leave because you are a black woman?

DUNN: I do, and I believe that they did it in a very underhanded way. I can only speak to my situation for those others. I don't know their situations, but in my situation, they actually pulled my security clearance and said, well, your job requires you to have national security clearance. Therefore, we're going to place you on unpaid leave indefinitely because you no longer qualify for it.

And they use that as the premise to discriminate against me, essentially. And then with the FBI, you're required to file an EEO complaint with the agency. You cannot go straight to EEOC. And in doing so, they then turned around same agency and denied it under the premise that, well, security clearance. The courts have held security clearances is decided solely by the agency because they're in the best position to do that.

[08:25:35]

Well, you cannot use discrimination as a. As a factor in an employment decision, and then hide behind security clearance, which is exactly what they're doing. BLACKWELL: Well, former Agent Dunn, I urge people to read your op ed.

It was striking when I did. I thank you for your time, and of course, we'll be following your story. Please stay in touch with us on what's next.

DUNN: Thank you. I appreciate it.

BLACKWELL: Our Target CEO is leaving that role, and the leaders of an effort to boycott the store for dropping their DEI efforts are claiming credit. So what does that tell us about the claim, "Woke is Broke". We'll discuss that next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:30:42]

BLACKWELL: The effort to call out companies for dropping their diversity initiatives has some new momentum. This week we learned that Target CEO will step down on February 1st. He's not going too far. He's going to be the executive chairman.

But Target cites tariffs as a big headwind for the company, which is why they needed a change at the top. But the organizers of a black led boycott of the retailer, they say that it's their effort that's sparking change and they're not satisfied.

LaTosha Brown, Cory Ruth and Dr. Jamal Bryant are back with us. You are the leader of the initially it was the Target fast and became this boycott after the Lenten season. Your reaction to this shift, I'll call it, because it's not really a resignation, just move from one job to another. What's your reaction?

BRYANT: They're playing musical chairs on the Titanic. The CEO is now the CEO and the CEO is now chair of the board. So there is no shift of policy or perspective. It's just a PR stunt. It's disappointing.

And at this point, after they've lost $12 billion in valuation, the stock continues to stumble. We are now asking for the shareholders to say, when are you going to stop the bleeding? We're going to raise it up a notch and ask people to start deleting their Target app so they'll be able to feel it in their database.

They're already feeling it in the pocketbooks. If it was just about tariffs, then Costco would be suffering and they are not. It is a direct connection to what has happened from this movement of conscientious people around the country who are saying enough is enough.

BLACKWELL: Before you jump in here, Cory, let me read the demands. $2 billion to art -- to honor their $2 billion pledge to black businesses.

BRYANT: Let me pause you.

BLACKWEL: Yes. Yes.

BRYANT: That was a pledge they made.

BLACKWELL: Yes.

BRYANT: Not because of the boycott, not because of the fast. They said it after George Floyd and have not honored it. They were supposed to give us receipts by July 31st and haven't done it.

BLACKWELL: You haven't received those.

BRYANT: Yes.

BLACKWELL: Because after the end of the boycott, the fast is the boycott.

BRYANT: Yes.

BLACKWELL: You said that they were willing to do that.

BRYANT: Yes.

BLACKWELL: They didn't accomplish that.

BRYAN: Yes.

BLACKWELL: Deposit 250 million into black owned banks, establish retail centers at HBCUs and of course restore their DEI commitments. Corey, you told my producer that you're actually pretty critical of this boycott because of the inability to achieve the desired outcomes and you say it lacks precision. Explain that.

RUTH: Yes, I think we can't underestimate the impact of the structural challenges that Target has. Right. During COVID a lot of retailers restructured and diversified their supply chains and they also reshored inventory.

Target seems to be left flat footed while we're going through a economic transformation that's being driven by the Trump tariffs. So yes, Costco is not hurting because Costco started making those changes during COVID. Right now over 50 percent of Target's inventory is imported. And that's not true of Walmart, even. And so the other thing that they haven't done very well is respond to Walmart's competitive push.

BLACKWELL: But that's a different question. I'm having a conversation about the effectiveness of the boycott and you've said that it lacks precision.

RUTH: Yes.

BLACKWELL: And so what is the critique of the boycott?

RUTH: My critique is this, that right now we put a lot of, we as African Americans, put a lot of attention on what we're not getting and what we are failing to do is brand around us what we are doing. And so since 1940, for instance, black home ownership growth has grown by over 100 percent, 60 percent faster than white home own. Our wealth growth is outpacing white wealth growth by four times. But

we spend more time talking about DEI and talking about things that we're not doing right now. Black male income is equal to white male income when you account -- when you account for --

BRYANT: That's not true.

RUTH: Let me -- let me finish. When you account for region industry inexperience, it absolutely does. They make 2 cents more per dollar.

[08:35:05]

BLACKWELL: Black men make more than white men.

RUTH: That's a pay scale study. That's not a Cory Ruth --

BRYANT: That's true.

RUTH: That is -- absolutely.

BRYANT: The net -- the net worth of the average black fan of average black family is not even $5,000.

RUTH: Absolutely. Absolutely. I don't --

BRYANT: We're headed towards by 2030, zero net worth. We are running behind. We have less home ownership now than we did when Dr. King was assassinated in 1968. That's 300,000 black women have been terminated since April because of the rollbacks of DEI.

The numbers and the data that Cory is giving is absolutely unfounded and has absolutely no merit. Black people are dealing with poverty in an abject way and we're going to see it more pronouncedly when the big ugly bill goes into full effect.

RUTH: Black poverty has dropped. In 1968, 60 percent of blacks were at or below the poverty line. Today that's less than 17 percent. That is the fastest reduction in poverty in human history behind only China. And that is -- that is the story that we need to be telling.

BLACKWELL: Let me tell you get another story.

BROWN: The population of the numbers.

RUTH: Yes.

BROWN: Like you can take data and tell whatever story you want. The fact that you got to go all the way back to 1968, you're skipping over the Reagan years. You're skipping over the years in the 90s where there was mass incarceration. You're skipping over the fact that there is that Black women make 60 percent less than white men. You're skipping over the fact that there's a study that talks about literally the road to poverty, that this study to zero wealth.

That by 2050 that they're expecting black households to have zero wealth and that white households will have 122,000 in assets. While that is not a lot of money in itself, 122,000 is far much more than zero.

BLACKWELL: Let me -- let me -- Pastor, I just want you. Because we got to wrap it here. If you could quickly respond to the critique that you're protest that the boycott is lacks precision.

BRYANT: It is absolutely precise. Black people spend $12 million a day. So we're asking precisely for $250 million. When Cory claims these numbers from the 60s we had 100 black banks. Now we only have 27. We're asking precisely for us to get $2 billion back into black community because we're absent.

The big beautiful bill that his party represents is going to show that contrast because we don't have insurance, don't have Medicaid, don't have Medicare. Who is going to be impacted when SNAP no longer provides free lunch in public schools? It is minorities. So it is a precise ass (ph).

BLACKWELL: We got to wrap it there. Dr. Jamal Bryant, LaTosha Brown, Cory Ruth, thank you all for coming in.

There are some interesting stories in the New York Times real estate section. Million dollar home listings, tips for designing a dorm room. But this week there was also this. A story about a new development whose founders say is only for white people. I'll speak with a reporter who recently visited the community now being built. That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:42:40]

BLACKWELL: There's an exclusive new community growing in the rural Ozark Mountains of Arkansas. Return to the Land is exclusive in that its founders are excluding anyone who is not straight or white. Its architects are Eric Orwoll and Peter Csere. And together they are creating a community that's testing the limits of 57-year-old anti- discrimination housing laws.

Joining us now is the journalist who visited the compound being Deborah Kamen. She's with the New York Times. Thank you for being with me. First question, why and why now is this happening?

DEBRA KAMIN, REPORTER, THE NEW YORK TIMES: I think the answer for why is a question that goes back as old as time. People have always tried to segregate themselves. Racism is, as you know, is definitely not anything new, but definitely why now?

There is a feeling among the architects of this community, the people who created it, that they can get away with it now because even though the laws obviously very explicitly make it illegal to discriminate, a lot of things that we took as rules and norms just a few months ago no longer really apply. And they feel that at the highest levels of government they will be allowed to do this. So they're trying to take advantage of the moment. BLACKWELL: YEs. Let's listen actually to Eric Orwoll. He's one of the

co-founders of Return to the Land.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ERIC ORWOLL, "RETURN TO THE LAND" FOUNDER: I'm not asking for supremacy over anyone else. Return to the Land is not a supremacist group. It's not a hate group. It's not even a white nationalist group. We are white identitarians. We value our identity and want to preserve it. That's not hate, that is love for your own people.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLACKWELL: Yes, we've been showing the pictures here from the New York Times from your visit. And you write before a photographer could snap pictures and he pulled a copy of Mein Kampf from a bookshelf and turned it around to hide its spine. That of course Hitler's manifesto. Does he consider this? Does he see this himself even as racist? How does he, I guess, justify this?

KAMIN: I actually asked them that exact question. If they believe that they are racist or the compound is a place where racism is thriving. And you know, semantics are really important.

[08:45:00]

And a lot of what's happening here is the meaning of words is getting twisted and changed in this political moment. So they said they don't even know what racism means anymore. Is it racist to want to live with your own kind? They flipped the question and flipped it back. They would not answer it directly. Objectively. Is this racist by the definition of racism? Absolutely. Would they admit it or say so? Probably not.

BLACKWELL: Yes, it's remarkable to hear him say that nobody knows what racism means anymore. Let me ask you the question of legality. Are they facing legal challenges?

KAMIN: No, not yet. They are not facing legal challenge. For a legal challenge to be brought, one of two things would have to happen. Someone in power, like the Attorney General of Arkansas would have to open a case. At this moment, the Attorney General is investigating the legality of Return of the Land, but nothing beyond that. Or someone would have to say that they've been wronged.

And that's where it gets tricky, because for someone to say they've been wronged, you would have to have someone who wants to live here and was rejected. And how many black or Jewish or gay families are going to want to move to this compound in the middle of Arkansas? Probably not that many.

So while they are quite clearly in violation of the Fair Housing Act, to bring a legal case against them is going to take a few more steps.

BLACKWELL: We're looking at the pictures and video, but what's there? What is it? Just like a typical community. KAMIN: It's still being built. It's actually quite premature at this

moment. In October 2023, the creators of this community, Eric Orwoll and Peter Csere and three other people bought the land. It's 160 acres and it was pretty raw, unfinished land, quite wooded, kind of difficult terrain.

They have now brought about 40 people there, a couple families, some kids. There are some cabins that have been built. They bulldozed rough gravel roads. They're in the process of building a community center, which I saw, so it's not finished yet, but you can see the frame of the building, and that's where they hope they'll have things like dinners, community events, et cetera.

Eric himself has a shed that has fiber internet and insulation. He makes a lot of YouTube videos there. There was a computer set up with a ring light. He is also a musician, so he has two pianos in there. And that's where all of his bookshelves are, including the copy of "Mein Kampf."

And there's some play structures for kids. Other than that, it's still rough. There were some goats. There's a river, there's a creek, but it's definitely not finished yet.

BLACKWELL: Yes. Well, Debra Kamin of the New York Times, thank you so much to hear that. He believes that now is the time where he thinks he can get away with this. Thanks for your reporting.

KAMIN: Thank you so much.

BLACKWELL: Tomorrow night, certainly tomorrow night at 8:00 p.m. Eastern, I'll be hosting a special live hour marking the 20th anniversary of Hurricane Katrina. Yes. Next Friday it will be 20 since that storm devastated the city of New Orleans.

You also want to tune in at 9:00 p.m. Eastern tomorrow for the new CNN Original "New Orleans: Soul of a City, Rebirth of the Superdome." That's tomorrow night at 9:00 Eastern and Pacific on CNN.

Coming up, Art is Life. And our conversation with the artist whose work once celebrated by the Smithsonian is now being singled out by the White House. You may be surprised by his reaction.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:52:38]

BLACKWELL: The White House claims the Smithsonian museum system is out of control. And now they're singling out the work of an artist that they say proves their point. So for artist life this week I got reaction from the artist who painted that piece.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RIGOBERTO A. GONZALEZ, PAINTER: My name is Rigoberto A. Gonzalez. I live in Edinburgh, Texas. I'm an artist and also a art instructor here at the University of Texas in Rio Grande Valley. Most of my work deals with immigration. It deals with the border, specifically deal with border culture. I was born in Mexico in a border town.

I like to always say that I am here legally. We have to make those clarifications also. There's, of course, a lot of stories that are very dramatic, that lend themselves and are very inspiring to me to be depicted as paintings on canvas. The name of the painting that has been getting all this attention, it's immigrants crossing the border wall into South Texas. A young family, they are descending a ladder as they cross over into the American side.

I believe the way that it was presented and by the White House showed that it was promoting illegal immigration. But it really, it shows the dangers that the immigrants face, and not only when they travel to the U.S. but once they get here. There's empty fast food containers which of course warn us to the dangers of the American diet.

An old Victoria's Secret ad which I believe, well, I put that in there to be an example of over sexualized consumerism. There's also a newspaper that contains the headline Trump Impeached. It's symbolic of anti-immigrant sentiment. It used to be immigration was just, you know, males coming to work, but now there were like whole families and like families with children. It was so inspiring in a way and in a way shocking.

[08:55:00]

I should comfort the disturbed and disturb the comfortable. Being disapproved of by the current administration, I took that as a badge of, you know, of honor. I just -- I felt my work had hit a target of what it -- what I meant for it to do. It reminded me of, you know, back in the 1930s in Germany, when the Nazis were in power and they wanted to censor art, they started to collect art that they deemed as degenerate because they thought that the ideas promoted by the artist -- were not in line with the fascist ideas.

But yes, there is a slight discomfort in my part, like, am I going to be listed and maybe, you know, potentially sent to El Salvador? You know, like, am I going to be visited by ICE just to intimidate me? Who knows, you know, is my job safe?

It brings up all these questions, but I think we all have a little bit of fear. I think that's where they get their strength from having intimidating the population. But we have to speak our mind. We have to do the artwork that we love to do.

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BLACKWELL: Now to keep up with Rigoberto's work, you can find him on Instagram at rigobertoagonzalez. I'll see you back here next Saturday at 8:00 a.m. Eastern. Smerconish is up after the break.

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