Return to Transcripts main page

First of All with Victor Blackwell

DHS Funding On ICE; Army Reserve Pilot Fighting To Get Wife Released From ICE Custody; TSA Employees Impacted By DHS Funding Shutdown; New Leader Of Alvin Ailey Shares Vision For Iconic Institution; Safe House Linked To Underground Railroad Discovered. Aired 8-9a ET

Aired February 14, 2026 - 08:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:00:33]

BLACKWELL: Well, first of all, the Department of Homeland Security has more than a few critics right now. This week, DHS took one of them. Cardi B. Yes, Cardi and the DHS X account are beefing now. Awkward for a few reasons. Also notable that as the department was preparing to shut down due to a fight over its funding, they took some time to clap back at a rapper for joking about fighting ICE if they come for her fans.

More consequential, though, is the beef that Democrats and Congress have with DHS, and there's no quick path to solve it and an end to the DHS shutdown. Among their demands, an end to ICE conducting random stops in the street and alleged racial profiling. Codifying the need for immigration officers to enter a home with a judicial warrant requiring body cameras, no masks.

So far, we're seeing DHS changing course in some limited ways. On Friday, the acting director of ICE revealed that the agency has opened a criminal probe into whether two immigration officers lied under oath about the shooting of a Venezuelan man in Minneapolis last month. And the administration says they're pulling back on their surge of immigration agents in Minneapolis.

Leaders there say the feds still need to make amends.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MAYOR JACOB FREY (D) MINNEAPOLIS: Was it worth it? Was this operation that has inflicted so much damage on our city that we can indeed calculate in real dollars? Was it worth it? Was the chaos worth it? Was the fear worth it?

GOV. TIM WALZ (D) MINNESOTA: They left us with deep damage, generational trauma. They left us with economic ruin. In some cases, they left us with many unanswered questions.

(END VIDEO CLIP) BLACKWELL: And as for the shutdown, Democratic leaders say they are

not hearing enough yet from the Trump administration and Republicans on how they plan to change course.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. HAKEEM JEFFRIES (D-NY) MINORITY LEADER: They're brutalizing everyday Americans and law-abiding immigrant families. They're not targeting violent felons who are here illegally. The president made that promise. He lied.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLACKWELL: My next guest says his wife is one of those law-abiding immigrants. Chris Busby is a military service member trying to get his wife released from an immigrant detention center.

Stephanie Kenny-Velasquez was taken by ICE when she went for a routine check-in early December. Chris, who is a U.S. Army Reserve pilot, said that Stephanie came to the U.S. in 2021 seeking asylum. Since then, he says, she's been working, taking classes, studying to get her real estate license, but she was detained days before she was scheduled to take her exams. Instead of celebrating their new marriage, Busby has been appealing to politicians, his chain of command, anyone who could help him get her released.

Army Reservist Chris Busby is here with me now. Chris, thank you for being with me. I can hear you breathing as I read through that. Talk to me about this -- these last couple of months of trying to get your wife at least the attention for someone to hear her case.

CHRIS BUSBY, HUSBAND OF STEPHANIE KENNY-VELASQUEZ: Yes, it's really frustrating. You know, like, as you were saying earlier, whenever ICE was -- I guess whenever the mention of ICE was first here, whenever Trump said it, they were supposed to be targeting criminals. Right? The worst of the worst. Stephanie is far from that.

BLACKWELL: And explain that. How so?

BUSBY: So Stephanie is just your normal person, right? She's a normal person. She wants to live a normal life. She came here in 2021, and she has been doing everything she can since she's been here to be the best side of society, right?

Anything that ICE has requested from her or DHS has requested from her, she's done it. She has no criminal history in the slightest. She does everything that she needs to do.

BLACKWELL: Let me read for you the statement that we received from ICE. "On December 5, ICE arrested Stephanie Kenny Velasquez, an illegal alien from Venezuela. She illegally entered in 2021 near Del Rio, Texas, and was released into the country by the Biden administration. All of her claims will be heard before an immigration judge and will receive full due process."

What's your -- is anything there inaccurate and what's your response? BUSBY: So I disagree with that. She went in front of an immigration

judge. We went in front of a DHS attorney, and they didn't review her case at all. As were there, the DHS, the prosecutors specifically said, "Oh, sorry, Your Honor, I haven't had the chance to review her case." The only thing that he looked at in her extensive case was our marriage certificate.

Yes, we recently got married, but there's a lot of people who recently got married. So, to consider her a flight risk because we got recently married discredits everything that she's done so far for this country that she's been here.

[08:05:06]

BLACKWELL: Well, let me ask about what you've done for this country. You obviously, I said a pilot. What have you said, or have you tried to get the help of your command?

BUSBY: I have absolutely tried to get the help of my command. I've been told since this is a civil issue, there is little that they can do. They did offer me chaplain service, which I greatly appreciate, but at the same time, I want my wife home, you know, not anyone to talk to you.

BLACKWELL: And so you've said that your wife has suffered some health issues because of this. Tell me what's happened.

BUSBY: Absolutely. So they -- when she was first taken in on December 5th, she went from where she was, and they took her up to Conroe, a detention center up there. Randomly, one night -- randomly one night, they took her from the Conroe detention Center over to the Houston Immigration Processing center. And when they did, they weighed her.

She had a fort at that time. She had a 14 pound-weight difference. She had lost 14 pounds with less than a month being there, right? And the time has only progressed since she's been there. So it's been nearly 20 pounds that she's lost since she's been there.

You can see it from the photos that I have. She's clearly lost a lot of weight.

BLACKWELL: They also say all detainees receive proper medical care, a long-standing practice to provide comprehensive medical care. They add that this is the best health care that many aliens have received in their entire lives. That's part of their statement.

Let me ask you about this. There is something called, and in researching your story, something called parole in place that allows undocumented spouses of members of military members to stay in the U.S. have you pursued that? Has the -- has there been any conversation about that for your wife?

BUSBY: Yes. So whenever she was first detained back in December, we had our lawyer do the I-130, right? Which is the parole in place. And it still has yet to be like anything has happened from it. So we have done a military parole in place as well, and we're still waiting on confirmation from that.

BLACKWELL: Has this made you reconsider or recast your military service to the country, considering what's happening to your wife?

BUSBY: Absolutely.

BLACKWELL: How so?

BUSBY: You know, whenever I first joined the military back in 2015, I was 17 years old, right? The reason I decided to join is because I wanted to fight for a bigger cause, right? I wanted to help as many people as I could. And doing that for about 11 years now really makes me realize that maybe it was all for nothing, you know.

BLACKWELL: How so? Say more.

BUSBY: So I don't expect any like, additional service. I don't expect any assistance because I've been in the military. I did that on my own accord, right? But it is kind of disheartening whenever the people that you've served for years, and I'm not talking about the civilians, I'm talking about my leadership, specifically.

Whenever you serve these people for years, you know, and no one can try to assist you, you know. We -- I've had, out of the entire people that I've reached out to, one person has really fought hard, but they've only gotten as far as I can. Unfortunately, we have people that are in the military that have the means to assist. Not -- not inside of their uniform, I'll tell you that. But they do have the means to assist.

But I feel like the amount of people who have heard this story and who have chose to not assist, it really breaks my heart. I do understand though, you know, a lot of people have a lot of things going on in their own life, right? So I don't think that, you know, there's anything that really makes me special, you know. But I think it is just a little disheartening though.

BLACKWELL: Chris Busby, I thank you for your service. I thank you also for sharing your story and we will continue to follow it.

BUSBY: Thank you, Sir.

BLACKWELL: Thank you for coming in. DHS manages more agencies than just a ICE and Border Patrol. While lawmakers are in recess. People in roles like the TSA are still on the job but could miss paychecks.

During the last shutdown in November, we talked on this show about how, according to a 2019 report from ProPublica, the TSA is one of the most diverse agencies in the federal government. Citing data from the Office of Personnel Management, they found one quarter of screeners are black. And now they are all dealing with a great deal of uncertainty yet again.

The acting administrator of the TSA testified to Congress about the impact of that this week.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HA NGUYEN MCNEIL, ACTING ADMINISTRATOR, TRANSPORTATION SECURITY ADMINISTRATION: We heard reports of officers sleeping in their cars at airports to save money on gas, selling their blood in plasma, and taking on second jobs to make ends meet. Many were subject to late fees from missed bill payments, eviction notices, loss of childcare, and more. All the while expected to serve their country and perform at the highest level when in uniform.

Twelve weeks later, some are just recovering from the financial impact of the 43-day shutdown. Many are still reeling from it. We cannot put them through another such experience. It would be unconscionable.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[08:10:00]

BLACKWELL: Caleb Harmon-Marshall is here. He's a former TSA officer and helped fundraise for unpaid TSA employees during the last major shutdown in November.

Caleb, thank you for coming in. Let me start here because you obviously still keep in contact with many of the TSA officers. What's the morale like?

CALEB HARMON-MARSHALL, FORMER TSA OFFICER: It's very low, extremely low. You know, I've worked for TSA back when the last government shutdown was happening in 2019. And during that time, it was very different.

We had support. We had, you know, the community rally up for the officers and give back. So it didn't really feel like it was as long as it was. Now that they're going into their third shutdown, they're stressed, they're financially strained, and they don't know how long this one's going to last because this is going to be different.

BLACKWELL: And let's get a reminder, because the last shutdown, the one you're talking about in 2019, was the longest shutdown in history before the most recent one in 2025 that went on for 43 days. And so, as morale is low and one would expect that it would be, if you're going again 90 days after the last time you went without pay for a month and a half, are more people leaving the TSA?

HARMON-MARSHALL: They're thinking about it. They're looking for jobs because, you know, you don't want to go to work at a high stressful position not knowing that you're going to get compensated for the jobs that you're doing.

You know, these officers, they're behind X-ray machines. They're dealing with the traveling public. They're working long hours and they're still working overtime during the lapse of pay, not knowing that they're going to get the back pay.

I was hearing from some of my former colleagues and they said that they received their back pay just a couple weeks ago from the last shutdown. BLACKWELL: Just a couple of weeks ago, they just got that pay that

they were owed. Let me ask you this shutdown, and I remember the last time every elected official I spoke with said that there's no threat to safety. There's no additional vulnerability. But then I had the union leader here who said, of course, there is. When you're focused on how to pay the bills, how to fill the gas tank, how to feed the family, child care.

What do you think about the threat? Having done the job, having been there without pay, is there a safety concern during a shutdown?

HARMON-MARSHALL: Definitely. You know, it's a high-stress job. Atlanta's Hartsfield-Jackson International Airport is the busiest airport in the world. You're seeing hundreds of thousands of travelers pass through.

These officers are sitting behind X-ray machines. They need to be focused. They need to be looking to see if there's potential threats in these bags. And there's no way that you could be 100 percent focused if you're thinking about is my lights going to get out. Get cut off. It's cold outside. Am I going to have heat?

You know, my children, some of their kids, they're giving their children to their family members. If they have them or friends to watch their kids, for them to go to work is really stressful right now for them.

BLACKWELL: Now they won't miss the first full paycheck and hopefully it doesn't go until March, but that's when they would miss their first full paycheck. When should people expect to see the impact on the wait? Because I remember seeing it at the airport in Houston, I believe it was. Three hour waits for TSA. When do you expect that will happen?

HARMON-MARSHALL: I think when they miss their full paycheck, that's when we trap -- the traveling public will see the wait time. But this government shutdown is different and I do think that it's going to be longer than the last one because ATC is not involved.

From past history, when ATC is involved.

BLACKWELL: Air traffic controls.

HARMON-MARSHALL: Air traffic control. The flights are halted. Things start happening because travelers are impacted by it, because their flights are getting delayed and canceled. That's not going to happen. his go around. And it's going to be insightful to see how long it happens.

BLACKWELL: But that's an important point because passports are still going to be processed. SNAP benefits are going to go out. Smithsonian's open while this DHS shutdown goes on and TSA workers will have to work but will not be paid until that is resolved. Caleb Harmon Marshall, thank you for coming in and helping us understand it.

All right. After being called not worthy and foul mouthed, the only black governor in the U.S. is responding to a White House snub from President Trump. You'll hear Governor Wes Moore's response coming up.

Plus, a hidden passageway to the underground railroad. This is phenomenal. It's found in an unlikely place. But now the home where it was found could be at risk due to development nearby. An attorney helping preserve the site will join us in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:19:24]

BLACKWELL: So another week and another moment where President Trump posts something online. And we have to ask ourselves, is that racist?

This time it's a post about not inviting two governors to a meeting at the White House of bipartisan governors. Jared Polis of Colorado, who is gay, and Wes Moore of Maryland, the only black governor in the United States.

In his post calling both, quote, "not worthy," he also calls Governor Moore the "foul mouthed" governor of Maryland. Keep in mind, other governors who have called out the president with tough language like California's Gavin Newsom did get an invite. Here's some of Governor Moore's response.

[08:20:02]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. WES MOORE (D) MARYLAND: Well, I can't speak to the president's heart. I can speak to his actions. And I do want to be clear to the president, respectfully. You do not determine my worthiness. God determines my worthiness.

The people of Maryland determine my worthiness. They are who I answer to, not him.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLACKWELL: Maya Rupert is with us. She's a former campaign manager, including for Julian Castro's 2020 presidential campaign. And she's the author of a great new book out this week, "The Real Ones: How to Disrupt the Hidden Ways Racism Makes Us Less Authentic."

Maya, thank you for the time here. The response here has been less clear from others than it has been from the governor, where the Republican head of the Governor's association says that, well, we're not going. And then there's confusion with the dinner and the meeting. But what's your view of the president's determination that these two are not worthy of attending this meeting?

MAYA RUPERT, AUTHOR, "THE REAL ONES": I mean, look, I think it's pretty clear. Pretty clear dog whistles. I think, you know, when you hear things like not worthy, foul-mouthed, and it is the only black governor who's being excluded. It's an openly gay governor who's being excluded. I don't think we have to walk that far to see that what he is trying to do is signal that signal exclusion in a way that very clearly is about more than just this meeting or this dinner, right?

So I think again, it's an example where presidents use these bipartisan opportunities to try to bring people together to actually get some work done. And this president once again is making it clear that he'd rather divide than actually bring people together and work on behalf of the people of this country.

BLACKWELL: Yes. There's one other thing here. The president, Republicans have been fighting for the SAVE Act, which would require proof of citizenship to register for federal elections. The president posted online Friday, quote, There will be voter ID for the midterm elections, whether approved by Congress or not.

Is this one of those claims from the president that should be ignored because that's just not the way laws work, or is it something that deserves attention?

RUPERT: I think both are true. It is absolutely not the way that laws work. The federal government does not administer elections. That is -- that's state law. He is not going to be able to come in and supersede state law with how any elections are being administered. But we would be making a huge mistake to ignore this.

And I think that part of the reason we've gotten here with Donald Trump is that he makes threats like this, and we try to say, well, that's not how the law works, so let's ignore it. We need to take this seriously. Because what he is saying is he wants to take control of our election law. That is not the role of the president, but it does not mean he will not make real efforts to do it.

And these are the type -- these are the moments we have got to sound the alarm and say that not just the Democrats, the Republican Party has an obligation to call this out as well if we go down this path. We are not really talking at this point about saving American democracy. If a president is allowed to make threats like this, and it doesn't get any response.

We are in the world of having to restore American democracy after Donald Trump, and that we need to take very seriously.

BLACKWELL: Maya, let's talk about your book. I have it here with me. I've been reading it.

RUPERT: Thank you.

BLACKWELL: And I want to start with you with a question I ask every author I have on why this book, why now?

RUPERT: You know, I said in the book, I decided I wanted to write the book at roughly the same moment I realized I needed to read the book. It was a theme that I kept seeing over and over again, and that's essentially that this idea of authenticity that we all talk about as a goal and something that is good is not equally accessible to all of us. And what I was seeing is the concept of authenticity, and especially in politics. But the book is broader than political authenticity. But especially in politics, I was seeing it get weaponized against

candidates of color, women of any race. They were being read as inauthentic because we have a more limited version of what we consider authenticity to be for these candidates. And it was making it harder to elect people. And there was no way to publicly talk about that bias because we all say, well, obviously, we want our politicians to be authentic, and we don't problematize what that means. And really what it means when we say someone isn't being authentic.

BLACKWELL: Yes. And you know what? I told you during the break that there are so many concepts in this book that I have lived with and know, but there's never been -- it's never been on a page about people of color. And my perspective as a black man, yours as a black woman, and you write about, you know, balancing being the cool black girl versus being the authentic black queen in certain spaces.

[08:25:13]

And I wonder for you, in navigating being authentic. Is this exclusively in the white gaze? Is this exclusively based on how white people see you? Or do you have to balance that as well, white with our own people?

RUPERT: No, absolutely. It's not solely about the white gaze. It is absolutely an in-community conversation that happens as well. But sometimes we flatten that, and we sort of forget about that piece of it. But it is that you are very often called on to engage in one performance to make white people feel comfortable, and a different performance to make people within your own community feel comfortable, and like you are calling on an experience that feels familiar to them.

And at no point is what feels genuine or real to you being centered in a discussion that is supposed to be about authenticity. Because if it's not read as authentic to white people or if it's not read as authentic, for me, there are times where I'm in majority black spaces where I want to be read as authentic to these other people who have their own experiences. I am putting myself into a box that's about performing an authenticity that doesn't actually -- it doesn't have anything to do with my realness.

And so what I wanted from this book was to free ourselves from a model of authenticity that privileges how we are perceived over what is real for us.

BLACKWELL: Yes, there's always the employers, especially, who say, bring your whole self to the job, and they really don't want your whole self. Maya, Rupert, thank you so much. Again, the book --

RUPERT: Thank you.

BLACKWELL: -- is "The Real Ones: How to Disrupt the Hidden Ways Racism Makes Us Less Authentic." It is out now.

No individual gold medal for Team USA's Ilia Malinin in the Winter Olympics, but there's new attention on the back-flip he landed in his routines at the games. Coming up, you'll hear from the retired figure skater the move is named for. She pulled it off in the 1998 games and is finally getting her flowers this week.

And remember, "First of All" is also available as a podcast. You can scan the QR code below for more information and you can follow and listen wherever you get your podcast.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:32:00]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SURYA BONALY, FRENCH RETIRED FIGURE SKATER AND COACH: People's mentality and the judges back in 1998 were much more narrow. People didn't have open mind.

BLACKWELL: US figure skater Ilia Malinin landed a backflip that elevated his team to Olympic gold in Milan. Now, despite the headlines, he's not the first to land it at the Olympics, just the first to do it legally.

At the 1998 Nagano Games, a French figure skater named Surya Bonaly landed it one foot. Now, it was an illegal maneuver. Then that ban was reversed in 2024. After Ilia landed that backflip, I wondered, what did Surya think about his backflip, her backflip, and the renewed interest on her '98 program.

BONALY: It was my last competition of my skating career. And also, you know, I wanted to leave a good note because I was injured, but, you know, I wanted to finish strong doing the backflip for me was like the last issue, last thing I could -- last count I can pull of my games and showing that, you know, people will remember me for what I did.

BLACKWELL: At this moment, we saw these games. Ilia Malinin do the backflip. And so when you saw that, what went through your mind?

BONALY: Backflip it's something that somebody had to put a step on and say, OK, I can do it. Especially after a lady who did it years ago. And I'm grateful that skating finally step it up and going forward and everyone's happy. The fans, people watching television get to see and say, yes, that's really cool.

BLACKWELL: And I asked Surya if figure skating has changed for skaters of color since she was on the ice.

BONALY: Back in my time, people didn't like to see people of color mood. They say, oh, it's weird. I used to compete in Eastern country, and people almost were laughing at me when I was skating because they didn't know much and obviously we don't have much television, so they didn't know we what to expect.

Now, obviously, there's people of colors on TV all the time. Singers, athletes, basketball players. So you feel more, you know, comfortable and normal.

Figure skating has been known for being a sport very expensive. So for parents who want to bring the kids right away and skate, they know it's going to cost a lot of money. So, not everyone has a lot of money. Some people are crazy rich, why not? But for some people who are just average, you know, it's really difficult, especially in America. It's sad.

I hope that more and more people of color will be able to come and say, hey, so and so did it. We can try.

BLACKWELL: And how does it feel to be remembered for that backflip?

BONALY: It's amazing. Look at how many years happened in my last competition, you know, the Olympics. And still people talk about it. Every time I wake up and I see my message, my phone bump with messages. I'm like, wow. I guess people did acknowledge what I did. It's funny now. It sounds better than when I did it back in the days. It warms my heart.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[08:35:02]

BLACKWELL: Coming up, a piece of history rediscovered just in time for Black History Month. A passageway linked to the underground railroad is found and now there's an effort to protect it. We'll talk to an attorney helping to lead that.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLACKWELL: Alvin Ailey if you know it, you hear the name and you know what it represents. Black history. American history.

[08:40:02]

And leading this iconic American institution is no small job or responsibility. Alicia Graf Mack is the name of the dance theater's new artistic director. The company's first tour under her leadership is happening now. And for Artist Life. This week, I spoke with her at the site of their current stop, Atlanta's Fox Theater.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ALICIA GRAF MACK, ARTISTIC DIRECTOR, ALVIN AILEY AMERICAN DANCE THEATER: My name is Alicia Graf Mack. I am from Columbia, Maryland, and I am the artistic director of Alvin Ailey American Dance Theater.

BLACKWELL: This is your first tour as the artistic director. How's that feel?

MACK: It feels like nothing short of a blessing. I started dancing in the company in 2005 under the direction of Judith Jamison. She's someone that I looked up to from the time I was a child. Sometimes I hear her voice in my head saying, come on, Alicia, let's go. You can do this. Let's do it with excellence. Let's do it with pride.

BLACKWELL: And so how do we see your voice in this show? On this tour?

MACK: The works that we perform and the works that I will continue to curate always have something visceral, meaning when you come to theater. You're going to feel something. You're not going to come and have to intellectualize the work. You're going to actually understand, by the way, that it makes you feel.

We have a new work called "Jazz Island" by Maya Garcia. It tells stories, sort of like a myth or a fairy tale, but this fairy tale grounded in Caribbean and Latin, Afro Latino culture. Then we have a work called "Blink of an Eye" by Mehdi Willersky that is all virtuosic musicality.

Of course, Mr. Ailey's revelations closes almost every night. A work that has been seen around the world by more people than any other modern dance in history is about his blood memories of growing up in rural Southern Texas during the Depression era, experiencing Jim Crow racism.

BLACKWELL: This is a tumultuous time in the country. How much does the climate politically and socially influence the decisions you make about Ailey and what shows up on stage?

MACK: We stand on the shoulders of Mr. Ailey's strength and his bravery. He founded the company in 1958. If you can imagine what that must have been like to be able to amplify the beauty of the black body on stage. These are the same things that we are doing in 2026.

We are boldly stating who we are. We are standing in our joy as an act of resistance, as an act of affirming our identity.

BLACKWELL: What do you hope will be your signature?

MACK: I hope that people will see me as a very responsible and caring steward of this legacy. I want to be able to step away one day knowing that I kept the flame alive.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLACKWELL: Ailey's tour is next. Heading to Auburn, Alabama, Stompson, Nashville, Chapel Hill, Philadelphia. Round out this Black History Month with the season running to May. It's about more than just the performances, by the way. Don't sleep on their master classes, shows featuring students and even workshops for older adults. So for more, check out Ailey.org.

Coming up, that amazing find more than a century in the making. A passageway linked to the underground railroad found in hidden in what is now a museum. Now there's an effort to protect it. That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:48:41]

BLACKWELL: Old houses hold secrets. And one of Manhattan's most famous homes just revealed its best kept secret. The Merchant House is the first landmark building on the island built by abolitionist Joseph Brewster. It's now a museum and its curators just discovered Brewster built it in 1832 to be both his home and a stop on the Underground Railroad.

As first reported on Spectrum News one New York Hidden perfectly behind a built in drawer is a tiny space barely 2 feet by 2 feet. Now there's a ladder down to the ground floor and potentially to freedom. The museum knew about the space for decades, but it took years of research to find out what it was for. And now they say it's the first discovery of an Underground Railroad entrance in Manhattan in more than 100 years.

Significant because at the time the abolitionist movement in New York was extremely hidden. Abolitionists like Brewster could face violence and legal penalties. And now preservationists say historic home that one is at risk.

A developer wants to build a new building next door and curators for the Merchant House say that the new construction could cause damage. Michael Hiller is a preservation attorney who has made a career out of fighting to preserve New York's landmarks for 30 years. He's also representing the Merchant House, trying to stop this development project. He's with me now.

[08:50:06]

Michael, first, as I said, the false floor, that's not new. They knew about that. But archaeologists have now discovered the connection. How did they make the connection and determine that this was a path, this was a space on the Underground Railroad?

MICHAEL HILLER, PRESERVATION ATTORNEY AND PROFESSOR, PRATT INSTITUTE: Well, the space is in the house by. It's in Merchant's House, which historically is associated with the Treadwell family. The Treadwells were not known as abolitionists. It wasn't until the focus was shifted to Joseph Brewster, who was an avowed abolitionist, that we began to realize the full extent of this discovery.

It was at that point when we began to research Joseph Brewster that we were able to determine that this was a site on the Underground Railroad. Joseph Brewster was an abolitionist. He was part of a secret society that attempted to purchase the west coast of Africa in order to stop the slave trade at its source.

So once we began to really look into Joseph Brewster, that's when everything changed.

BLACKWELL: I understand also that candle wax offered some clues.

HILLER: Yes, there are candle wax drippings on the hatch and in various points as you descend down the pathway where you can see people must have used candles at the time in order to descend the ladder.

BLACKWELL: And is this a space for -- is it a hideout or is it a pathway, a passageway to something else?

HILLER: That's something that's still being studied. And that's one of the reasons it's so important to preserve Merchant's House is that in order to ensure that this is properly investigated, we really need to spend the time to determine whether or not to what extent this pathway was used and how it was used.

Right now, the pathway ends on the ground floor, and the plans for the house show that there was a partition wall right in that spot. Presumably, when you descended the pathway, you'd be in a small chamber or room at that point. It might have been that you left out the back door, or you could possibly have descended into the basement and exited that way.

BLACKWELL: Before we talk about the threat to Merchant's House, I really want to drive home the significance of the discovery, especially in New York. I mean, I've been on tours through the south where you go to churches and homes that are stops along the Underground Railroad. But to find one in Manhattan in 2026 is remarkable.

HILLER: This is the first find of an intact shelter point of the Underground Railroad since 1863. So it's over 160 years since we found anything like this. And part of the reason that these are so rare, as you pointed out during your introduction, is that they were legal at the time.

Another reason is that buildings in New York come and go. The reason this site was we were able to find it was that this building was preserved as a landmark before we even knew what this was for other reasons. And so as a consequence of really is a generational find, I've been doing this work for over 30 years. I've seen nothing like it.

BLACKWELL: Yes. And so now there is a proposal that's moving through the process for an eight story luxury building next door to the Merchant's House. And you say this is a threat. Explain how.

HILLER: Sure. It's actually nine stories. And the real concern here is that Merchant's House is only a three and a half story building. The building next door that they want to build is not only nine stories high, but it's also exceptionally deep. It's a very heavy building.

And the concern is, I'm going to use my hands for just a moment, if you have Merchants House here and you have this enormous building next to it's literally going to push the soil down directly adjacent to Merchant House. And when that happens, Merchant's House is going to shift downwards. Even as little as a quarter of an inch would destroy most of the historic plaster in the house. The plaster it was is original to 1832. So that's problem number one.

Problem number two is anything above a quarter of an inch, half an inch and up to three quarters of an inch will result in structural compromise. Which means it's possible that this commercial development next door could destroy an 1832 building and quite probably the last intact shelter point of the Underground Railroad discovered in Manhattan.

BLACKWELL: So, I mean, you know this because this is your work and I'm a journalist asking questions, but it is registered on the National Register of Historic Places, which I always assumed protected these sites from threats like that.

So considering that, and then add the discovery of this stop on the Underground Railroad, why doesn't that protect it from this threat?

HILLER: I have to say Merchants House is one of the most extraordinarily recognized houses in the United States. It's a National Historic Landmark. It's on the National Registry of Historic Places, it's recognized under New York City Landmarks law both on the inside of the house and on the outside of the house.

[08:55:06]

So it really is well recognized. You would think that the protections would be bulletproof, but they're not. The problem is that development marches on. And very often what you find is that developers who are interested in building large buildings because there's a financial incentive to do so will try to overcome all the legislation that is supposed to protect historic houses like this one.

BLACKWELL: Yes.

HILLER: And it's going to be a battle. We've been fighting this for over 10 years.

BLACKWELL: Well, Michael Hiller, I thank you so much for explaining the significance of this and being with me this morning. Enjoy the Saturday again. Thank you.

HILLER: Thank you. Thank you so much.

BLACKWELL: First of All is also now streaming live and available anytime in the CNN app. For more information visit CNN.com/watch. And thank you for joining me today. I'll see you back here next Saturday at 8:00 a.m. Eastern. Smerconish is up after a short break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)