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First of All with Victor Blackwell

Moments Away: Top MS Public Safety Official On Nolan Wells Case; United In Grief and Demand For Answers; Crump: Wells Family Has District Of Mississippi Law Enforcement. Aired 8-9a ET

Aired August 01, 2026 - 08:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:00:33]

VICTOR BLACKWELL, CNN ANCHOR: First of all, there is no force on earth quite like a determined mother. Now, we're approaching one month since Nolan Wells left on that boat trip on July 4th with friends, he was on his way to Horn Island in Mississippi.

Christine Wonsley is his mother. She and his father, Elmore Wonsley, they've been demanding an answer to the question, what happened? They've been working ever since.

And in a time when so much competes for our attention and stories about missing or dead young people of color often get overlooked. It is notable that attention to this case, the case of Nolan Wells, is not slowing down at all.

In a moment, I'll speak live to the top public safety official in Mississippi. He's over the department that conducted the state's autopsy on Nolan's body. We'll ask about that autopsy and where the investigation into his death stands, about the family's independent autopsy.

Also concerns about misinformation online. We'll get into all of that. But I want to make sure that you see this moment from this week. Nolan's mother uniting in grief, but also solidarity with the families of Tyler Smith and Daniel Irving.

All very different cases and different circumstances, but all involving 18-year-old black sons and their families determined to get answers about their deaths.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RYAN YOUNG, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: What is it like to have this unyielding bond in terms of just wanting justice?

NECEE ANDERSON, GRANDMOTHER OF TYLER SMITH: I went to bed as a normal nana, baking cookies, spending time at the park, and I woke up in an eclectic set of women. And I said, oh, God, how did I get here? But better yet, how do I get out to stand with these women, to be in solidarity with these women, it's not something anybody wants. All of us want to be able to step to the side, and we just can't. It's a nightmare we'll live in for forever.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLACKWELL: The family's share and attorney Ben Crump. In the case of Nolan Wells, he revealed this week that lawyers have subpoenaed several tech companies to preserve social media and phone records. Attorney Crump also says that they're consulting with audio engineering experts after the release of a recording from the Mississippi Department of Marine Resources.

A lot of it is hard to hear and understand, but some Internet investigators claim that they've been able to transcribe what's said. But all we can say for sure is that it captures people calling for towing assistance on July 4th on the boat that Nolan Wells was aboard earlier that day. Nolan's mother told my colleague Ryan Young that they need more people to come forward to fill in the blanks.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHRISTINE WONSLEY, MOTHER OF NOLAN WELLS: We need people who were there, right? We need people who were there who actually witnessed it. Those are the people we need to call. Because this is the thing.

At the end of the day, if the roles were reversed and, say, if Nolan saw something happen to one of his friends, or even not. Well, not one of his friends, just anyone. Nolan was the type of kid or young man that would have been like, hey, mom, dad, look, I saw this crazy event. What should I do?

And he would have gladly gone to the authorities and been like, hey, this is what I saw when I was X, Y, and Z. And that is -- that is all we did. Like, we literally asked a question, and it started this just -- I don't even know how to describe it, what's going on right now. But all we want are answers. That's it.

We just want answers. That's all we've ever wanted.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLACKWELL: With me now is Mississippi Department of Public Safety Commissioner Sean Tindell. Commissioner Tindell, thank you for being with me. We're having a bit of a tech issue, but you're joining me on the phone. We can get the answers that way.

Can you hear me?

VOICE OF SEAN TINDELL, MISSISSIPPI DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC SAFETY COMMISSIONER: Yes. How are you doing this morning?

BLACKWELL: I'm doing well. Commissioner Tindell, thanks for being with me. Nolan Wells's family says that they learned through the media that his autopsy is complete. Is that correct?

Can you confirm that the autopsy is now complete?

TINDELL: Well, typically that's something that we do not confirm. We turn that information over to the local coroners. And if you think about it, in Mississippi, we have 82 counties where state run office. They obviously have more direct contact with the families in these situations locally. And so that's something we typically turn over to them. And they handle a lot of those types of communications.

[08:05:03]

So we would not be directly involved in that. But I can tell you in routine course, and it would be pretty much standard that by now these types of autopsies would have been completed in Mississippi. We've done a great job in hiring additional medical examiners and really working towards getting these answers for families in a more timely fashion than we were just a few years ago.

BLACKWELL: And so my question isn't -- and listen, I understand that it's going to go to the DA office and then likely to the grand jury. So the details of the autopsy, I understand you can't release. But can you confirm that it's done?

TINDELL: Again, I can. I mean, I can -- I can tell you that. That is not something our office typically confirms. We perform the autopsy. We rely on the local officials to let the families know because they are the ones that are elected and represent the families in these types of cases. So, of course, it's an active investigation, and there's information that might be getting to different folks at different times.

So I really can't -- I can't speak to the specifics of if it's been released to anyone or not. I know again, Dr. Turner is a well renowned forensics pathologist. I'm sure she's done a great job.

And again, I think it would be normal for it to be completed in this amount of time.

BLACKWELL: Okay, so let me ask you about concerns that, according to the pathologist who completed, I'm sure you're aware of this, an independent autopsy of Nolan Wells body, Dr. Roger Mitchell. They had concerns about the first, the state autopsy completed by the medical examiner's office, which is in your division.

And let's put it up, the independent pathologist wrote in his report. "That dissection of the back of the head during the layered posterior neck dissection revealed a 12 by 8-inch focal area of red discoloration in the deep soft tissues overlying the occipital bone. Etiology of this, which is, you know, simply finding what the reason is unclear. This finding, however, is significant enough to be highlighted in this preliminary report to further investigation. It's important to reiterate that this finding could not have been observed in the first autopsy because the posterior head and neck dissections were not performed."

Now I know you're not a pathologist. I know that you didn't conduct the autopsy.

The concern here is that this section, you think 12 by 8 on the back, your head is large. Do you have concerns because the family does. They don't know if this is significant, but they know that the medical examiner doesn't know it because they didn't see it. Do you have concerns about this?

TINDELL: Again, I've got a lot of faith in Dr. Turner. I think she's, again, a grade board certified forensic pathologist. And look, I certainly think the family's entitled to a second opinion. I mean, routinely when I go see a doctor, and I might not like their answer, or I want additional information, it's not unusual to get a second opinion.

And so -- and I've reviewed that, all types of reports, just out of curiosity. And, you know, I think ultimately the findings there didn't show any signs of trauma. So, you know, look, I respect all these doctors that do this for a living.

I know they do it with a heart of fashion, and I know that Dr. Turner was aware of the findings that he had. So at least she had an opportunity to see what he had put in his report. And so, you know, ultimately, whatever her conclusions are -- are made with what he put in his report in mind.

BLACKWELL: Yes. Let me ask you also about. Because we're short on time. I want to ask you about a recording of a distress call that Nolan's friends made. There was a pump problem on the boat heading to the mainland from Horn Island. This is on July 4th. Let's play that recording.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It looks like you're on Horn Island, Correct? Are you on Horn Island?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, we are at Horn Island. Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: All right. Is the boat sinking, or you have it aground?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We are sinking, yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Is it a ground is the question.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We're not aground. We are in 17-foot of water. We're in 31-foot of water.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: All right, have to ask, where do you -- and what do you want to do? Do you want to be towed back?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I want to get this boat on sank and towed back. Yes.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLACKWELL: There's also online an enhanced version of that call that claims to have pulled out more. Have you heard that recording and what do you think of it? TINDELL: Look, I've listened to it, and I think it's one of the dangers that we face in the modern world where, you know, evidence gets out into the public realm and can be. And I'm not saying this was manipulated, but audio can certainly be manipulated. Pictures could be manipulated. Video can be manipulated and rather easily.

And so, you know, I think it's something that we have to keep in mind these days. And so when I hear that, just being frank, I hear a lot of muffled noise in the background, but I'm no audio experts. So we'll see what the evidence reveals. And there are professionals that break down digital forensics all the time, and let them take a look at it.

[08:10:09]

And again, one of the things that we've tried to encourage anybody, if you saw something that day, please come forward. I mean, nobody wants -- if something nefarious happened to Nolan Wells, nobody wants accountability and justice more than the prosecutors and the sheriff and public safety officials in our state.

And so, you know, if anybody has seen something that would indicate that we wanted to come forward. If there's evidence of that, please come forward.

But on the same token, on the flip side, if it's not, I think there has to be an acceptance that it could have been an accidental drowning. You heard the young man talk. He thought it was a 17-foot of water, and just seconds later, he was in 31-foot of water. So that shows you how quickly the conditions change out there.

I've lived here my whole life. I live on the Mississippi Gulf Coast, and I've been on those waters as well. And I know very well the dangers out there.

BLACKWELL: Commissioner, you said that nobody wants an answer to this more than the officials there in Mississippi. I'm sure you didn't say it, but understand that the exception would be Nolan's family. But I want to play for you what --

TINDELL: Any inference.

BLACKWELL: Certainly, I want to play for you what their attorney, Ben Crump, said about state officials there and a lack of confidence in Mississippi officials in this investigation. Let's play it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BEN CRUMP, CIVIL RIGHTS ATTORNEY: The family has distrust of the Mississippi law enforcement officials, giving them a fair investigation where their black son ended up dead after going out on a boat with three young white men. The history of Mississippi is something that they don't just read about in books, but it's a lived experience for many black Americans.

(END VIDEO CLIP) BLACKWELL: You know the history of Mississippi as well as anyone. What

do you say to Wells's family to quell those concerns? What's your response?

TINDELL: Well, you know, the day after he went missing on July 5, some of their friends who happened to be friends of mine, reached out and said, hey, you have a pretty large platform. Do you mind putting something out that we're searching for? No, I said, absolutely.

And so, we put something out there, and I tried to provide updates during that time period. And in my heart really reaches out to him. I feel for him. I've got a son the same age, just graduated Gulfport High School, and thoughts went through my mind with he and his friends, and what if something like this happened to him or one of them?

And so, I really empathize with him. I can't imagine that tragedy, and that's something that no parent should have to go through. But unfortunately, it does happen.

As far as Ben Crump's comments, you know, I've been dealing with Mr. Crump for five years on different cases in Mississippi. And, you know, I don't put a lot of credence in what he says.

I mean, I don't think that he is down here for justice. I think he's down here for himself. And, you know, I think his actions speak to that.

The Mississippi I grew up in, you know, I had a lot of black friends through high school. I went to integrated schools. The days of the past, in the 40s and 50s or 60s, are something that most Mississippians my age and younger don't know anything about, including my children.

So we see the world a lot different than those that tainted our history as a state. And I can tell you it's a much different place than it was back then. And I'm proud to be a Mississippian.

I see a lot of love, and I think our state and our country and definitely this community is a lot better than some of the things that are being said. Even, you know, not only to the Nolan Wells family, but the, you know, the possible witnesses and government officials are getting threats. And nobody, nobody, the Wells family or anybody else should have to endure that kind of stuff. And --

BLACKWELL: Commissioner.

TINDELL: And that's unfortunately where some of this rhetoric has taken us.

BLACKWELL: Let me ask you one more quickly before we go. If my research is right, you're a former assistant district attorney. And so would you expect that Nolan Wells's parents would be able to get just the headlines of cause and manner of death before this goes to the grand jury in a case like this? Would you have called them in to give them that? TINDELL: In my experience, generally there are victim assistance coordinators and officials that will be reaching out. I do think, you know, there has to be some discussions about before it goes to the grand jury, the information that is -- that is put out publicly. I do believe that we ought to try individuals, everybody in a court of law, not in a court of public opinion.

And I've heard folks like Ben Crump disagree with that, that they think that's how they get what they want is by trying individuals, all the multitude of ways in the (inaudible) of public opinion.

BLACKWELL: Sure. But to the question I asked, Commissioner Tindell, will they know? It may not be public, but let me just ask you a simple yes or no. They should know. They should know.

TINDELL: Yes.

BLACKWELL: Okay. All right.

TINDELL: Absolutely. Yes.

BLACKWELL: Commissioner Sean Tindell, thank you so much for being with me and fighting through some of those technical issues at the top of the interview.

TINDELL: Appreciate you all. Thank you.

[08:15:08]

BLACKWELL: All right, a letter from ICE and ankle monitors now. A community leader in Springfield, Ohio tells us that he's hearing from now former Haitian TPS recipients who say they're being targeted by the Trump administration.

Plus the president of Tuskegee University will be here. He's finally weighing in on the heated debate online about the HBCUs new dress code that bans bonnets and durags in class. This is, for some, surprisingly, a hot topic.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:20:17]

For weeks we've been contemplating what would happen to the hundreds of thousands of Haitian immigrants legally in the U.S. once their temporary protected status expired. Well, the deadline came and went Monday. So now we're getting a sense of what the impact of that actually looks like.

In a moment, I'll speak with Corinne. She says that she was just 9 years old when she moved to the U.S. with her mother. And after Haiti's earthquake, she's now 26 years old. And she's wondering if the country she's called home for most of her life might soon force her to go back to a country she doesn't know. There's also a specific community that feels targeted this morning.

We've talked a lot about Springfield, Ohio, and it became the focus of President Trump's diatribes about Haitians during the election. Well, now there's a concern that they could be a target of ICE.

Viles Dorsainvil, executive director of the Haitian Support Center in Springfield, shared with us this copy of a letter. He says a member of his community received it from ICE. He says other Haitians in Springfield have gotten one like it, ordering them to check in.

We reached out to ICE and the Department of Homeland Security about this. DHS sent us a statement. It said in part, "DHS does not discuss ongoing or future operations. Temporary protected status is exactly that temporary."

They added. "What we would say now is, it's closing time, which means you don't have to go home, but you can't stay here. The good news, it's not too late to get a $2,600 check and a free flight home."

DHS keeps making that closing time pun. But there is real fear here. Fear of being called in by ICE. When you've been here legally with TPS until now, fear of being detained, of being deported, fear of returning to a country you don't know or don't feel safe in. Let's talk about that now with Corinne and Viles. Thank you both for being with me.

Corinne, let me start with you. The protection has now expired, and after several extensions, Monday was it. What changed for you?

Has your job ended? Did your driver's license expire? What is daily life like now?

CORINNE: Everything has ended for me. I am living in fear every day. I've been in this country for over a decade. This is what I call home.

I consider myself as an American. I've obtained an education here. I have nothing to go back to. Haiti has been a destabilized country for a while now, and it's just constant fear.

I'm not the only one. There's thousands of young adults like myself wondering what's going to happen? Can we finish getting our educations? How are we going to work?

How can we walk the streets and worry that we're not going to be taken by ICE?

BLACKWELL: Viles, talk to me about this call-in letter from the Department of Homeland Security. And it is what it sounds like calling them in with their immigration documents. What more can you tell us?

VILES DORSAINVIL, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, HAITIAN SUPPORT CENTER IN SPRINGFIELD, OHIO: Yes. So many individuals in our community have received this letter, asked them to check in with ICE.

When they got there, they asked them questions about themselves, about their families. They ask them questions why they don't want to return to Haiti, and they promise them to give them the $2,600 to go back home. And once they don't want to go there, they just put like an encode monitor on them and give them some type of extension and charge it -- to charge it and give them instruction how to use it.

And they give them one month time appointment to report to a court, immigration court.

BLACKWELL: I just want to make sure that people heard and understood what you said, that people who show up for this check-in are being fitted with ankle monitors now.

DORSAINVIL: Yes, that's exactly what it is.

BLACKWELL: Have you received one of these letters, Corinne?

CORRINE: Not that I know of.

BLACKWELL: Not that you know of? If you are well -- first let me ask you, are you considering being proactive as the Department of Homeland Security suggests you should and take the $2,600 and leave the U.S. or what is your plan now?

CORRINE: Right now, my plan is to fight and stand for what I believe in, to fight for thousands of Haitians. TPS holder. I'm part of a nonprofit called Marvel that's fighting for TPS holders. I am contributing to the community as much as I can, just fighting for my rights, my human rights every day as much as I can.

[08:25:16]

BLACKWELL: Viles, we saw after operation or during Operation Metro Surge in Minnesota that people who were in the country illegally and people who were here legally, they didn't go out to grocery stores. They weren't going to restaurants. They stopped sending their children to school. Are you seeing any of that in Springfield?

DORSAINVIL: Yes. Now you won't see individuals on the street as it used to be, and when you go to a store you won't see them. They just go low profile for now because, first, they do not have the privilege to drive, and second, they are afraid to be separated from the kids and especially when they hear that there was a 19-year-old that was apprehended by ICE and was detained, they were very much afraid for that not to happen to them as well.

BLACKWELL: Are there people, and this is something I wanted to ask you in our last conversation, Viles. Are there people who are considering a third country? I mean, if they have to leave the U.S. and they don't want to and there's nothing for them in Haiti, is there an option for Canada or somewhere in the Caribbean where anyone is going?

DORSAINVIL: Yes, I think that for an individual to go to Canada they have to have an immediate family member who is able or who is willing to welcome them there. For the option of going to a third country, and you cannot apply for a visa to go to a third country if you don't have a legal status in the country where you're currently residing. That's the very difficult part of it. So I think that the only option is if they want to self-deport, they

can go there. But actually it's not an easy option for them to consider now.

BLACKWELL: Viles Dorsainvil and Corinne, thank you both. And we will continue to check in that community in Springfield across the country as we see the expiration of that protected status for hundreds of thousands of Haitians in this country.

So there's a big election happening in days that voters of color are at the center of. Coming up, a look at the Democratic Senate primary in Michigan and why both candidates are so focused on black and Arab American support.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:31:38]

BLACKWELL: Is history about to repeat itself? Or are black voters about to do something unexpected in Michigan?

Early voting wraps up this weekend ahead of Tuesday's Democratic Senate primary. Now incumbent Congresswoman Haley Stevens is facing a more progressive candidate, Dr. Abdul El-Sayed.

Black voters make up about a fifth of the state's Democratic primary electorate, and they have a history of overwhelmingly backing the more moderate candidate. Stevens is leaning hard into making sure that black voters continue that trend for her. That includes with ads that play up her role working with President Obama in the past.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

Haley stevens, (D-MI): I'm Haley Stevens, and I'm from Michigan. As chief of staff to President Obama's auto rescue, I helped save Michigan jobs.

BARACK OBAMA, 44TH U.S. PRESIDENT: And Haley Stevens, by the way, she was there. She was a critical part of my team that helped the American auto industry come roaring back.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLACKWELL: Now, President Obama has not endorsed in this race. Meantime, Dr. El-Sayed has touted his past support for Vice President Kamala Harris and her 2024 presidential campaign.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I'm darn proud to vote for Abdul El-Sayed for Senate. I know Abdul and Abdul knows what's at stake. He was the first Muslim American leader to endorse Kamala Harris for president.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLACKWELL: Let's get perspective from two influential Michigan leaders on different sides of this. Keith Williams is the chairman of the Michigan Democratic Party Black Caucus. He has endorsed Congresswoman Stevens. And Dr. Pamela Pugh is the president of Michigan State Board of Education. She's backing Dr. Abdul El-Sayed.

Welcome to you both. Dr. Pugh, let me start with you. And something that I think out of a lot of attention from Congressman James Clyburn when he told Punchbowl News that show -- the people who show up for El-Sayed's rallies don't look like him. Let me put up the quote.

He said, "I saw a picture that concerned me coming out of Michigan. I saw the rally. I didn't see a single person that looks like me. That tells me all I need to know."

Now he's endorsed Haley Stevens, but let me put up a photo. I think this is the rally he's talking about in Detroit. People can take a look at the photo of the rally. This is July 18th. Do we have the photograph?

That's the photo of the crowd. This is Detroit now. 75 percent black city. Where are the black people?

DR. PAMELA PUGH, PRESIDENT, MI STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION, ENDORSED EL- SAYED: We are here and listen, the real question is, what is it? Why is it that families are struggling to put food on the table? Why is it that families are struggling to put gas in the car? Why is it that we have people who cannot or are determining whether or not they can pay for medicine or get to the doctor's office? And Abdul El-Sayed has stood for each and every one of those issues.

What we know is that we have well-funded players who are coming to this state, to our communities, with strong messaging, with driving wedges between communities. And we know that the future of our communities are dependent on one another.

[08:35:01]

Black America understands that what is at stake. What we know is that we have a preservation of power, a preservation of those who -- who are in position like none other. And this is our opportunity to put forward a conviction-led candidate who will stand for those issues that are important to Black America.

BLACKWELL: All right, so let me ask you, Mr. Chairman, when James Clyburn says he sees that crowd, didn't see a single person that looks like him, tells him all that he needs to know. What do you get from these images, and what's your response to what you heard from there, Dr. Pugh?

KEITH WILLIAMS, CHAIRMAN, MICHIGAN DEMOCRATIC PARTY BLACK CAUCUS; ENDORSED STEVENS: First and foremost, Pam Pugh is a friend of mine. I supported her when she ran for Congress. This is a tough act to follow. But let me tell you this.

I say the same thing on my Facebook page. I think I got one of hottest Facebook pages in Michigan. And if you go to his crowds, you see white liberals, guys with beards and things like that, and young progressives that don't look like me, but you do have a sprinkle of black folks. And my question is, he's never came to me for support. So what is his -- so why is that, okay?

Because as an African American, I want somebody who's going to show up and talk to me about my issues. And Haley has done that.

BLACKWELL: So let me ask you, Dr. Pugh. The political team traveled to Michigan and interviewed dozens of voters and found that, quote, El- Sayed is hampered by lingering resentment from prominent black Democrats who view his initial support for the uncommitted movement in the state's 2024 presidential primary as ultimately helping President Trump win Michigan that November. Do you think that is hampering his campaign?

PUGH: Again, I will say that there are people who are astroturfing to our communities and are putting that rhetoric out. But what we do know is that Vice President Harris herself thanked Dr. El-Sayed for his support. And of course, that is -- that's the desperation of that preservation, protection of status quo side that we're seeing.

What I will point out is what people will remember. What I remember is when Jasmine Crockett asked that her colleagues did not stand up and point out the legacy and praise the legacy of Charlie Kirk, who said that the Civil Rights amendment of 1964 was a mistake. When our sister Maxine Waters asked her congresspersons, her colleagues, Democrats, to not stand against socialism, denounce socialism, knowing that these are the services that we need in our communities.

But Haley Stevens, they are voting with Republicans instead of our dear sisters Maxine Waters and Jasmine Crockett.

BLACKWELL: Dr. Pugh, let me -- I got a question here. I got to ask for Chairman Williams here.

The money that's come into this race, the tens of millions of dollars from the AIPAC-aligned United Democracy Project, Dr. El Sayed brings that up to the media, to voters there more than $30 million. What's all that money get them? What's the message to voters?

WILLIAMS: I can't -- you know, I'm not in the campaign. I'm just a spokesman. You know, I can't elaborate on where she get her money from. But I do know Abdul, he's getting his money from somewhere, too. I do agree, we need to clean the money issue out of, get money out of politics, but how can you?

BLACKWELL: Okay, but -- all right. So let me ask you more than just you don't know where she gets her money from? $30 million backing a candidate, becoming the most expensive Senate primary in history. To the voters there, who watched in 2023 and 2020, Arab American community in Wayne County, in Oakland County, in Macomb County, who said that the U.S. should not be supplying weapons to Israel in their fight in Gaza, who denounce and who condemn what's happening in Lebanon, what do you say to those voters of color who Congresswoman Stevens may be pitching herself to?

WILLIAMS: I'm going to tell you this. I feel for people. I don't want to see nobody die. But that is not my issue.

My issue is, where's the money? How's the money going to help me close the wealth and poverty gap in Detroit, which is 34.7 percent.

[08:40:04]

I get it. They got to fight for the issue. But my question is, if he gets elected, is he going to spend more time on the west bank instead of the west side of the city of Detroit?

BLACKWELL: All right, Dr. Pamela Pugh, Chairman Keith Williams, I got a wrap there. Thank you so much for being with me.

CNN special live coverage of Michigan's primary results starts Tuesday at 7:00 p.m. on air and on the CNN app. We'll be back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BLACKWELL: Have you heard about this controversy, this new policy at Tuskegee University?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Tuskegee University in HBCU in Alabama, they have banned bonnets, durags, bedroom slippers, and revealing clothes in classrooms, official facilities, and dining halls.

[08:45:09]

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: With the President, Dr. Brown, saying that this is meant to give students a solid foundation for the workforce they will enter once they leave Tuskegee.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Great job, administrators.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: As an HBCU graduate, I can wholeheartedly say, you all don't need to be wearing bonnets and durags in the classrooms.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You all already understand how much the world already looks at us. So easy to call us ghetto and stuff. You all just giving it to them.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Higher education is supposed to be setting you up for the next level in your life, and that means how you show up.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don't think you should be wearing a bonnet or a durag to class, but I also don't think that there should be a rule against it at an HBCU.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: HBCUs is where black youth goes to be unapologetically themselves.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: As a college professor, I'm just happy you showed up to class. I've seen my students come to class wearing things, and I'm like, I probably wouldn't have worn that to class as a student. But you're here. You're engaged. You're ready to learn. Cool. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I got some of the highest academic honors you can get in undergrad while wearing the bonnet with the pajama pants with the slippers simultaneously. Because a bonnet, slippers, and pajama pants will not determine your success level.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This isn't even a new conflict. I swear. It's Booker T. Washington vs. W.E.B. Du Bois showing back up over a durag in a blazer.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They're policing a specific group of people and their appearance based off of respectability politics.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Respectability politics says that if I dress nice and look respectable at all times, you know, everything is neat, everything is clean. People are going to respect me.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Black people in their Sunday best were denied civil rights. Black professionals in tailored suits still experience racism today. Changing our clothes has never ended racism or anti- blackness.

BLACKWELL: Rain Caldwell is the sophomore class president. She weighed in, too.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: President Brown says these policies are preparing us for the workforce. But preparing students also means making sure that they have housing, making sure that when they have questions, they can reach somebody, anybody. Professionalism isn't just about how students present themselves. It's also about how institutions serve the people who trust them.

The concern is that appearance seems to be receiving more immediate attention than the issues affecting students' ability to succeed.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: While you should show up in a way that you are reflecting that you respect yourself and the real self-respect starts before you put the clothes on. And so, do I think that a bonnet in class makes it so that you don't have self-respect? No. No, I don't.

But do I think that asking someone to step it up a little bit to show some sort of reverence for those people that came before you? Do I think that that's a problem? No.

BLACKWELL: So when it comes to this new dress code, what do you think?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLACKWELL: This is a hot topic with passionate arguments on both sides. The president of Tuskegee University is here to share what he thinks. Dr. Mark Brown joins us live next.

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[08:52:11]

BLACKWELL: The new dress code at HBCU Tuskegee University means students will no longer be able to wear bonnets and do rags and pajama pants to class or the cafeteria there. Let's hear from the university's president, Dr. Mark Brown.

Dr. Brown, good to see you again. So let's set aside revealing or offensive clothing for obvious reasons. But the question here, as long as they're in the classroom learning and engaged, why does it matter if a student wears a bonnet to her 8:10 class?

DR. MARK A. BROWN, PRESIDENT AND CEO, TUSKEGEE UNIVERSITY: So, good morning. Good morning, Victor. And it's good to see and hear you again as well.

Let me just be clear that you are talking about, and we are hearing and reading about, one piece of a more holistic focus, which is student success. Our conversation has really been about student success and all elements of that.

The classroom is essentially a laboratory, right? If you are a student, that's where you go to do your business. You go to learn.

We are conditioning students to be ready to enter the workforce in many different spaces and to be comfortable when they enter that workforce and to be appropriate for whatever that workforce requires. That's a big part of a college education, especially at a private, historically black college and university like Tuskegee.

BLACKWELL: Yes. And listen, you're talking to somebody who graduated from Howard University, so I understand it. But the question is, and for some of the students there who say that this is performative respectability politics, they know that they can't wear a durag to Goldman Sachs. They can't wear a bonnet to JP Morgan, but this is performative.

You say to those students, what?

BROWN: Let's practice. There's a big difference in choosing not to wear a tie and knowing how to wear a tie. When you go to school, you are practicing.

You are practicing. You are learning. It is a maturation process. You don't have to wear a tie to class, by the way, just to be clear.

If you have your New York Knicks shirt on and your blue jeans, go right on to class. That's not the point, nor has it ever been the point in what we're saying.

However, you also need to know how to perform well in the other space. And so there are times at Tuskegee University when you will need to have a business suit. There are times when you need to have the appropriate female accompaniment to that. There are times when you need to practice that skill. And the first time that you practice that skill should not be when you enter the workplace.

Our job is to get you ready on day one. When you go across that stage, I need to know that you don't just have a degree and a grade point average. You are a practitioner of a profession, and you're ready to go in, and you're confident. Tuskegee has always been about that.

[08:55:14]

BLACKWELL: I got 30 seconds left. But how much do you think this is generational? I mean, if you looked at the students at our schools in the 1950s, what would they have said about the dress of the students in the 1980s?

BROWN: I think they would have probably been suspect of it. But we understand that. We understand that.

And I'll tell you what is not a matter of generation. What is not a matter of generation, Victor, is the competitive workspace that lies ahead of all of us and our absolute need. In fact, our mission, to prepare our students to not only perform but to excel in that workplace.

BLACKWELL: Dr. Mark Brown, President of Tuskegee University, thank you for being with me and thank you for joining me today. Smerconish is up next.

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