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First of All with Victor Blackwell

Arrest In Case Of Tasia Fortune, Found Hanging In Mississippi; Police Chief Speaks On Arrest In Case Of Black Woman Found Hanging; Deportation Protections For 170K Salvadorans In Limbo; Remembering Muslim 9/11 Hero Mohammed Salman Hamdani; NC Father At Center of U.S. Senate Ad Says He Was "swindled" By GOP Political Operatives. Aired 8- 9a ET

Aired September 12, 2026 - 08:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[08:00:32]

VICTOR BLACKWELL, CNN ANCHOR: First of all, there is still a lot more we need to know about the death of Tasia Fortune. But her family is finally starting to get answers after the 29-year-old black woman was found hanging from a tree in Mississippi. Now, late yesterday, a big announcement. The state medical examiner ruled her death a homicide, and police in Jackson, Mississippi, made an arrest.

51-year-old Jacques Ratliff is charged with murder. His first appearance in court is set for Monday. In a moment, we'll speak to the police chief in Jackson. She calls this arrest important in the investigation but not the conclusion.

This is all happening in the context of two other people found hanging from trees in less than a year in Mississippi. Black college student Trey Reed seen here, and an unhoused white man named Corey Zukatis.

This week, Democratic Congresswoman Ayanna Pressley led 59 other lawmakers in asking the FBI and Department of Justice to get involved. Her letter cites, "Reports of black people found hanging from trees in numerous states throughout our country."

With us now, the police chief of Jackson, Mississippi, RaShall Brackney. Chief, thank you for being with me this morning.

The report of the arrest of Jacques Ratliff. Have there been any other major developments overnight, any other arrests?

CHIEF RASHALL BRACKNEY, JACKSON, MISSISSIPPI POLICE: There have not been any other arrests overnight, but as I stated previously, we expect more arrests to come.

BLACKWELL: You know, I said at the top of this that she was found hanging from a tree. But you, though, are very precise in your language in saying that she was found in the hanging position. What does that mean? And maybe more importantly, what does that not mean? BRACKNEY: So, I'm just going to be extremely careful here. And again, I have been intentional about the words that, that she was found in a hanging position from a tree. We don't want to speculate, and we don't want to add fuel to the fire of these incidents in which other people have said that she was found hanged.

And the reason that's important is, when we do an entire crime scene investigation, we take in all the factors, all of the evidence, and all of the other additional things that we can collect, fiber and the positions of the limbs of the trees. Those are really important for us to determine the exact way and the exact manner in which misfortune was killed.

BLACKWELL: I'll say that's important because also the medical examiner determined the manner of death is homicide. You reported that. We've reached out to the Medical examiner's office to get a report. We have not received it. What is the cause of Tasia Fortune's death?

BRACKNEY: Again, this is an investigation that is still under determination. So, the medical examiner has been very clear that this is a homicide as the cause of death. Part of the manner of death, as it fully will be disclosed, will be disclosed as part of the investigation. There are certain things that the persons involved in this would know about this case and continue to disclose.

A lot of the information puts the investigators at a disadvantage and then, it could also compromise the integrity of this case.

BLACKWELL: So this suspect, 51-year-old Jacques Ratliff, was he known to Tasia Fortune before her death?

BRACKNEY: Yes, he was known to Tasia Fortune before her death. As I stated before, there was an association there. And the manner and the nature of that association again will start to become revealed as the investigation continues. And as Ratliff appears before the judges for his first appearance.

BLACKWELL: Is he someone who was known to your department? Had he had a record before this?

BRACKNEY: So, he was known to the department and that there had been encounters with him before. And again, as a part of the press conference, we had interviewed nearly 15 individuals related to this case. And so, as the connections, Mr. Ratliff to Tasia Fortune became more and more apparent. As you can see, we quickly were able to execute that search warrant and that arrest warrant.

One of the delays is you cannot get a warrant for homicide until the medical examiner gives us an exact cause of death. Otherwise, the warrant would not valid for a murder warrant at that time.

[08:05:13]

BLACKWELL: And so you executed this search warrant. He was not at the location where you executed this, but you said in the news conference that your officers encountered him simply walking down the street. Now, were they led to that location, or was that coincidental?

BRACKNEY: It was completely happenstance. They had executed the two search warrants we had for two separate locations in order to get additional evidence in this case. And as they were returning to headquarters, he literally came out of a convenience store and was walking down the street when one of the detectives saw him, identified them, took him immediately into custody.

BLACKWELL: Was there any resistance? Did he fight back at all?

BRACKNEY: Not at all. He did not resist. And if you can imagine, we had quite a show of officers. We had already had our investigators, and as I said, our SWAT team was also part of executing the search warrant and this arrest warrant. So, we had quite a few personnel on scene immediately to support that arrest. He was taken into custody.

BLACKWELL: Is he cooperating with the investigation? Is he talking?

BRACKNEY: What we can tell you is that once we did have him in custody, there is always going to be an interview request of the individual, and we would just leave it there. Again, as we continue to develop more information on this case, we will be as transparent as we can be so that we don't compromise this investigation, but also to keep the public and the family informed of every step that we're taking.

BLACKWELL: Do you believe or have any evidence, is a better question, that he is connected to any of the other persons in the state who have been found hanging or in a hanging position from a tree?

BRACKNEY: I would not make that determination. That would be a determination that the FBI would make. But this is a very local case. From the way that we're looking at it, although we've had support and resources dedicated to us from, as I said before, from the Mississippi Public Department of Safety, also from the FBI in this case.

And I think there's also a distinction as people are talking about what's going on in Mississippi, particularly as these cases, and related to Nolan Wells case. This is the city of Jackson. Jackson County, where Nolan Wells is, where they're from, is a very different community about two and a half hours away from Jackson, Mississippi, as there are calls for me to, you know, show transparency in that case.

That is not our case. That is not our jurisdiction. It is in a completely different part of the state.

BLACKWELL: Important distinction. Jackson Police Chief RaShall Brackney, I thank you for coming on answering questions, and I hope you can come back when you can say more. Thank you so much for your time this morning.

Now, despite pleas from Muslim students, the Texas State Board of Education is making a change to high school social studies lessons that are being condemned as anti-Islamic. We'll show you some of those changes.

Also, I'm going to speak with the young man who decided to leave the U.S. and his parents and his siblings this week faced with the possibility that a temporary protected status from deportation was set to expire.

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[08:13:14]

BLACKWELL: About 170,000 people are trying to figure out if their risk of deportation changed this week. Temporary protection from deportation for immigrants from El Salvador was scheduled to expire on Wednesday, September 9th is still listed as the end date.

But right now, the only guidance from the U.S. government is an announcement on El Salvador's TPS will be made at the appropriate time. Until such announcement is made, Salvadoran individuals present in the U.S. under TPS retain protection, including work authorization.

So, while some remain in limbo, others are already making a difficult decision. Our next guest decided to voluntarily leave the U.S. this week.

He was four years old when he came to this country. He turns 30 next month. Emerson Villaran Calles joins me now from El Salvador.

Emerson, good morning to you. We've spoken on this show with several TPS recipients in the U.S. who decided not to leave. Why did you decide to self-deport?

EMERSON VILLARAN CALLES, TPS RECIPIENT FROM EL SALVADOR: It's a great question. You know, I was looking at my options when the announcement was set for termination on September 9, 2026. And the way that I looked at it was most importantly, my safety and my well-being was critical. So, I looked at my two options, which is whether to stay in the United States and possibly be at the wrong place at the wrong time or not have the ability to work, and how could I provide for myself in that situation.

So, I looked at my credentials. I saw that I had my degree. I'm bilingual in English and Spanish. I have my grandparents here. I have so much support from my friends and family back home that I figured, you know what? I think the next step is for me to leave, right.

I had no idea that there was going to be announcement in terms of regarding that there would still be a protection. But regardless, I do feel that I made the right decision.

[08:15:18]

I have been here since Monday, Monday night, reconnecting with my culture, with my land, speaking to my grandparents, and spending time with them has been so beautiful. And I'm pretty happy with my decision.

BLACKWELL: And so you're happy with your decision. You left behind some siblings. You left behind your parents. How is that resonating with you over these past few days so far?

CALLES: Yes, I mean prior to leaving, I, you know -- when I was in therapy, it's always a story that you tell yourself, right? That really helps you get going, right?

I didn't want to look at it as I'm self-deporting. I'm leaving. I'm never coming back. I decided to look at this as a study abroad opportunity, right?

I've always wanted to study abroad. Never had the opportunity to do so. And that's the same story that I kept telling my friends because when I told them that I was going to leave, everyone kept giving me eulogies and saying like, oh my God, you light up every room that you walk into. I'm going to miss you. Da da da da. And I'm like, guys, like I'm still alive.

Like I'm going to be like 2,000 miles away. But you know, now the whole world is an opportunity. You can come visit me in El Salvador. We can go to (inaudible). We can go to France. You know, it's just think of it as I'm studying abroad. This is my semester abroad, and we'll see where things go from here.

BLACKWELL: Well, let me ask you this. Is it your intent if you're able to come back to the U.S., and do you think your decision to self- deport makes that easier when you start the process to return to the U.S.

CALLES: Okay, really good question. So prior to leaving the U.S., I did speak to multiple lawyers in regards to my situation, and it was best advised that I did leave before the TPS termination date. This would make it easier for me to return being in the U.S. unlawfully, depending on how long you're present in the U.S. unlawfully, could result in a 10 year ban.

Now I didn't want that because I do have my friends and family there. So, I wanted to make it easiest for me to come back. Leaving during the time that it's valid makes it easier for me to return.

Now I don't know if I'll go back to living in the U.S. full time. I did just spend the last 26 years of my life, so I think I want to explore a little bit. But leaving within the date that it was valid opens up possibility for me to come back on a tourist visa or possibly a work visa. So that door is still open there.

BLACKWELL: Well, Emerson, I thank you for sharing your story this morning. Although that rooster was trying to steal your shine through our whole conversation this morning. We made it through. I thank you for sharing your experience. Enjoy the weekend.

Coming up. Texas high school students will soon see changes to their social studies lessons that critics say is anti-Islamic. The Republican chair of the state education board that approved this will join us live.

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[08:22:58]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MICHAEL MASSAROLI JR., SON OF 9/11 VICTIM: You do my dad's legacy and the legacy of all these victims no honor by using this tragedy to spread hate. This tragedy is just that. It's a tragedy, and it shouldn't be -- I've had to grow up and spend the past 25 years seeing people use it to hate on our Muslim brothers and sisters, to hate on people who don't look like them.

And that's wrong. And that does no honor to the victims here. And I want to use the little platform I have to ask for that. Please stop.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLACKWELL: The war on terror is not the only fight that started 25 years ago this weekend. There was also a call to wage a war on hate. But are fewer people heeding it.

The horrors of 9/11 stay with every American alive that day and old enough to remember it. No one more so than the families of the fallen and those who suffer the health effects to this day from the aftermath. But it would be wrong to not acknowledge that many Muslim and Arab Americans felt and still feel excluded from the patriotic rallying cry for unity that we try to remind ourselves of every year.

A new poll from Pew Research released this week finds that views on Islam are more negative and more partisan today than in 2002. Trying to avoid this was a priority of then-President George W. Bush. This week he reflected on why he pushed back on the anti-Muslim sentiment after the attacks 25 years ago.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE W. BUSH, 43RD U.S. PRESIDENT: I didn't want us to lose our soul. I wanted. I wanted to. As we defended our freedoms, I wanted people to remember how precious they are.

So one of the things that I did, and I think you were very much involved in this decision shortly thereafter, was to go to a mosque. And I did so because I was deeply concerned about stories of women of color being harassed at shopping centers, particularly in Michigan. And, you know, it became clear to me that if this is an ideological struggle, which is what I viewed it as, and we forego one of the most important parts of our ideology, which is the freedom to worship the way you want to worship, all of a sudden, the enemy has won a victory.

[08:25:06]

CONDOLEEZZA RICE, FORMER UNITED STATES SECRETARY OF STATE: You talked about going to the Islamic center and trying to make sure that our Muslim American citizens knew that we didn't blame them for what had happened.

BUSH: I also made it clear that Islam was a religion of peace, not a religion of war, and that these people subverted their religion. (END VIDEO CLIP)

BLACKWELL: Well, that view from the former president, a Republican from Texas, now seems out of line with Republicans from Texas office. At President Trump's midterm convention in Texas this week, the audience heard a consistent message from some of their current leaders. They warned, beware of radical Islam, Sharia law, and its alleged influence on their Democratic rivals.

So Texas voters are no longer hearing President Bush's message that Islam is a religion of peace. And maybe soon neither will high school students in Texas.

In just the past few days, the Texas State Board of Education approved a new curriculum. Social Studies lessons in a few years will be updated to emphasize, quote, "The significance of the September 11, 2001 terror attacks motivated by radical Islam." Lessons will also explain, quote, "Early Islam in the terms of the Prophet Mohammed's brutal military campaigns against Jewish and Christian tribes, the normalization of slavery, and the taking of female captives as harem slaves."

The Texas chapter of the Council on American Islamic Relations reacted this way to the framework. They say, "The board has turned our classrooms into a place where prejudice is taught as fact and entire communities are written out of their own history." The statement goes on to read, "We plan to work with parents, educators and coalition partners across every community affected to reverse this decision."

The CAIR is a Muslim civil rights organization which, by the way, is in a legal dispute with Texas over being branded as a foreign terror group.

Joining us now is the chair of the Texas State Board of Education, Republican Aaron Kinsey. Mr. Chairman, I thank you for your time in the conversation. Let's start here with the rewriting of the curriculum as it pertains to 9/11.

It's been 25 years and I know that the curriculum is going through a major overhaul, rewriting many sections. Why rewrite this portion of the curriculum in this way now?

AARON KINSEY (R-TX): Yes. Thank you for having me, Victor. Good morning. You're absolutely right.

We're going over a major overhaul that hasn't happened in over a decade. It's been a five-year process. We've been working through that. And we've addressed the entirety of the social studies curriculum. It's K through 12.

So, it's only appropriate that when we're studying world history that we update it to include events of 9/11. That was 25 years ago as of yesterday, as we all are aware.

Now to the specifics on why we characterize it as radical Islam, that's because it's exactly what it is. It's radical Islamic terrorists. That's what it was.

If you go look at the history, you can do a simple Google search and even search for Osama bin Laden's beliefs. And I think that you would characterize those as radical.

They are tied to foreign policy. There are some other aspects of those. But they wanted to basically expel the United States from the Middle East because they were concerned that we were near their holy sites from a military basing perspective.

So, I don't know how else you can characterize the murder of 2,977 people other than radical.

BLACKWELL: You know what's interesting is that of course Osama bin Laden was a jihadist. But you don't in the curriculum go through any of those other factors. As you mentioned here in this interview and from reading the curriculum, because I read both the finalized approved curriculum and the recommendations from your consultants. You don't name Al Qaeda. You don't name Osama bin Laden.

When you talk about the Holocaust, you name Hitler. When you talk about the killing fields of the Khmer Rouge, you name Pol Pot. You name Mussolini. You name Stalin.

But you don't name the individuals responsible. You just name Islam. Is that an omission that is intentional?

KINSEY: No. And I would disagree with your analysis because we do talk about fascists. We also talk about Nazis multiple times throughout the standards. And there's an important distinction to make here.

And that is what we are charged with doing on the State Board of Education is coming up with the standards. This is the floor for what kids will learn. It's not necessarily a course itself. Those are going to be designed by curriculum writers and by textbook companies. So we're telling them what to make sure they include in the textbooks.

BLACKWELL: So let me read this. This is a content advisor to the State Board who wrote about her concerns ahead of the vote. We know the curriculum has been approved. The most significant she wrote were the "concerns of language throughout the course that characterizes Islam and Islamic history in a manner inconsistent with the neutral descriptive standard applied to other religious and cultural traditions covered in the course."

[08:30:08]

I'm not a subject matter expert. Neither are you, but Dr. Andrea Hutchison is. So why ignore that guidance toward neutrality?

KINSEY: Well, with all due respect to Dr. Hutchison, who I hold in high, regardless, there are nine content advisors that were revising us on this project. At least five of them did not agree with Dr. Hutchison assertion here. So, whenever you think about that, it's obviously there's nothing that you're going to do in social studies where you're going to get agreement of nine people out of nine. It's not possible.

So people can disagree. That's fair for her to do so, and that's her right and her duty to us and to the state to write that down and express her opinions. But it doesn't represent the majority of the content advisors that we had engaged in this process. And clearly it doesn't engage or it doesn't represent the majority of duly elected representatives on the state board of education.

BLACKWELL: OK, so let me say that some of this is not just about an opinion. It's about factual accuracy in which you say that the prophet Muhammad took female captives as harem slaves. Harem slaves is a reference to a different empire in a different century, in a different context. Describing this as brutal campaigns against Jewish and Christian tribes is subjective rather than factual description. So that was her recommendation.

But I want you to listen here to this girl's name is Habiba Koresh. She's a 15-year old student in Austin, Texas.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HABIBA, 15-YEAR-OLD STUDENT FROM AUSTIN, TEXAS: Right now, this standard reduces the founder of my faith exclusively to war, conquest and slavery. That is the only thing my classmates will learn about Islam's origins. In standard 5C, Christianity is taught through core beliefs, moral values and positive contributions to human history. I don't want anything taken away from how Christianity or any other faith is taught.

I am simply asking for equal educational standard. The text reduces a major global religion to violence. It misinforms my peers and leaving Muslim students feeling targeted their own classrooms.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLACKWELL: What do you say to Habiba?

KINSEY: Yes, I think context is important here. So let's step back and see and ask what are we trying to do here? But Texas is very pro- Texas. It's very pro America. It's very pro-Western civilization. And we know we have a crisis out there right now of kids who can't -- who don't understand our history, our basic civic value, civic values. You can see that whether it's anecdotally or you can see it in the data in our own testing scores across the state.

So what we attempted to do when we -- when we did this revision was to come at everything in a contextual manner, a march through time, if you will, to where students can understand events in context of what they have when they happen. So this particular standard that you're talking about comes from the world history course. The world history course is.

And on page one of it, it says, we're going to take a pro-Western view of the world history.

BLACKWELL: Mr. Chairman -- KINSEY: It's impossible to understand the Crusades if you don't understand that 2/3 of Christendom was conquered under the flag of Islamic rulers.

BLACKWELL: I asked you to respond to Habiba Koresh, and you said that they are pro-Texas, pro-Western, pro-American. Habiba Koresh is an American. Habiba Koresh is a Texan.

KINSEY: Understood.

BLACKWELL: And so what is the distinction you're making by answering my question about a Muslim teenager in a classroom in Austin and saying, well, here we're pro-Texas, pro-Western, pro-American.

KINSEY: That's a great question. The distinction I'm making is we are trying to set up history across time as opposed to a bunch of disjointed facts in the way it's taught right now, which clearly isn't working in Texas and in other states across the country.

So it's impossible for you to understand the Crusades if you don't understand the brutality of the campaigns that were waged and conquered 2/3 of Christendom in the 8th century. It's impossible to do so because, in fact, relationship.

BLACKWELL: You told the Texas GOP convention in 2024 that you have a chairman who will fight for these three letter words, God, GOP, and USA. Is this framing of Islam part of your fight for God?

KINSEY: Look, I do believe in God and Jesus Christ as my savior. So that is my personal context that I come to everything in life with. However, this specific instance has nothing to do with religion. This specific instance that we're talking about right here, which is one tiny piece of an entire rewrite, has to do everything with context and understanding how the world evolved and how we got to where we are today.

[08:35:11]

BLACKWELL: It's not a tiny piece to students like Habiba Koresh, but Chairman Aaron Kinsey, I thank you for the conversation. I appreciate it.

All right. As we talk about history and discuss communities different than our own, I was reminded of the story of one Muslim family for whom the events of this weekend 25 years ago is not just a history lesson. Mohammed Salman Hamdani was a New York police cadet. He was a trained emergency technician. He was a lab analyst working in Manhattan's Upper East Side. He was Muslim. He was American. He was killed on September 11, 2001.

And in those early weeks, as his family's concern over his fate turned into grief, some New Yorkers were instead feeling doubt baselessly on account of seemingly his religion and country of origin. To this day right now, the New York Post has this headline up on its website dated October 12, 2001 Missing or hiding mystery of NYPD cadet from Pakistan. They included this quote in their reporting. The police department refused to comment on the case, but investigators privately theorized that the family's first notion was correct. Hamdani died in the disaster. Hamdani did die when the towers fell. His name is now among those engraved on the 9/11 memorial at Ground Zero.

His name, however, is still not among the names classified as first responders. His mother, Talat Hamdani, feels his Muslim face has something to do with that and she's been advocating for the inclusion of his name to this day. Hamdani's name can also be found in the text of the Patriot Act. That's the surveillance law passed by Congress in response to the attacks.

Now there is a line in that legislation that reads, many Arab Americans and Muslim Americans have acted heroically during the attacks on the United States, including Mohammad Salman Hamdani, a 23- year-old New Yorker of Pakistani descent who is believed to have gone to the World Trade Center to offer rescue assistance.

This is Salman's mother, Talat Hamdani speaking with CNN about 10 years after the 9/11 attacks.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TALAT HAMDANI, MOTHER OF MOHAMMAD SALMAN HAMDANI: The climate is so anti-Muslim. It's so bigoted and prejudiced no matter where, especially when you're traveling, when you're flying, you know, and when they hear you speak at certain events. So I carry it with me, you know, to vouch, yes, this is who he was. This is the person whose mother I am.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLACKWELL: We Remember Mohammed Salman Hamdani and all 9/11 victims and their families.

Coming up, the father of a murder victim in North Carolina shared his son's story in a Senate campaign ad. But he now says that he was misled by the group. That father will join us next.

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[08:42:37]

BLACKWELL: A grieving father caught in the crossfire of North Carolina's Senate race says that he was used as a political pawn. Ronald Hayes appeared in an attack ad targeting former governor Roy Cooper over the murder of his son, Shemar.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RONALD HAYES, FATHER SHEMAR HAYES, FEATURED IN GOP AD: My son was murdered two and a half years ago here in Charlotte. A coward walked up and got into the passenger side of his car, shot him five times in the face. As the governor, Mr. Cooper was allowing these criminals back on the streets. You're giving them a second chance to go out in the street and do the same thing over again.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLACKWELL: But now, in a new Pro Roy Cooper ad, Hayes claims that he was tricked. He says he only agreed to participate in order to talk gun violence or talk about gun violence and honor his son. The super PAC behind the initial attack ad points to a signed release and messages with Hayes that says that he approved all this. Hayes says he regrets ever getting involved.

Ronald Hayes is with us now. Mr. Hayes, thank you for being with me. You believe -- let me put in the form of a question. Do you believe that you were misled from the very start in this engagement with the Senate Leadership Fund?

HAYES: I most certainly do. Yes, of course.

BLACKWELL: Now talk to me about how did you become part of this campaign from the beginning? Did you reach out to them? Did they reach out to you?

HAYES: Well, I am here in the Charlotte, North Carolina area and I am with a group of parents that's of homicide who our kids was murdered. So they reached out to us wanting us to participate in this ad to tell our story. What I thought that I was telling a story about was my son and speaking on gun violence.

BLACKWELL: And when you first saw this ad, what went through your mind?

HAYES: I was very upset because what I recorded was a conversation whom that I thought that I was speaking with Roy Cooper himself, the governor. And I was speaking about the murder of my son Shemar and gun violence.

[08:45:00]

And I did a recording also with about my books. I written four books of the tragedy of my son Shemar. So that's what the conversation was about. And that's what I thought that I would see on TV. But once I came home and saw the ad, I was totally upset.

BLACKWELL: And where did you first see the ad?

HAYES: Once I came home, the ad started to air on television.

BLACKWELL: So you first saw it on TV?

HAYES: I saw it on TV just like everyone else did.

BLACKWLEL: OK, so we have -- we reached out to the Senate Leadership Fund, which is the super PAC that you recorded this for. They sent us a copy of a release that you signed, which is standard for recording things like this, but also text message exchanges. And let's put it up on the screen where this person, the communications director, shows or sends to you the final version of the ad, which starts tomorrow statewide, turned out quite compelling.

And they sent you this ad in which they say, shows it here that you say, OK, thank you, acknowledge receiving it, and then says that would you like to say anything in their press release announcing the ad? You say, yes, of course. What should it be about how long they send you a quote? You say, this is absolutely perfect.

Now, this is all according to these text messages the day before the ad aired. So, did you see this ad through this message that was sent to you by the Senate Leadership Fund?

HAYES: Yes, I did, but that's not what I actually text them and wrote. What I sent them was something totally different. They had already had my signature. So of course it looks as if that I did text them that and write that. However, that's not what I said and wrote. So, it is very hard for me to try to prove or show proof that that's not what I said and wrote. But because that they do have my signature when I signed it at the place where we did the recording, it looks as if I text them that.

BLACKWELL: No, I'm talking about the text messages and the dates. You say that you first saw this ad on television. You also say that, you know, you didn't know what it would be. However, the Senate Leadership Fund shows here that they sent you the ad before it aired, told you when it would add what was in it, got your approval on the quote from this, and tell me if there's anything different.

It shows that before this hit air, you knew exactly what was going to be on. You also approved the way in which that it was being packaged.

HAYES: No, that's not true. I didn't know what was going to be on. Again, when you're doing a live recording, you were saying what you want to say. However, it did not come out on television the way that I said it. They edited. They changed it to make it look like what they wanted to say and look like, but it wasn't what I wanted to say. So it's nothing that I could have done.

BLACKWELL: They also sent us this screen grab. It looks like an AI generated ad. You say that they reached out to you. They sent us this. That was actually a call for people to reach out to them with the email.

So did you reach out to them through this email or did they contact you? Because this is what they sent us about how they got people for the ad.

HAYES: Well, no, I never reached out to them. They sent that ad. Whatever. I can't see what you're showing. However, I think it's a flyer. A flyer that came to the group and the group. I think that's a fly that you were showing, but I can't see it. But I believe that I never can't -- reached out to them. They reached out to us and then they contacted myself and two other parents to participate in this ad.

BLACKWELL: Well, Ronald Hayes, I thank you for being part of this conversation. And we did get that response from the Senate Leadership Fund. Thanks so much for being with me. We'll be right back. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:54:04]

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MARTHA MCLENNY WILLIAMS, HISTORIAN, NORFOLK BOTANICAL GARDEN: I'm Martha Williams. I am the historian for Norfolk Botanical Garden and I am in Norfolk, Virginia.

The Garden of Tomorrow is the third major phase of development for the Norfolk Botanical Garden, which was actually started in 1938. It was a WPA Project during the Great Depression and the first phase was 220 African American people planting in a swamp and azalea garden. It wasn't a pleasant experience. It was very painful. For 25 cents an hour, they worked five days a week. They left the project in 1942. The garden was closed for them because it was the Jim Crow era.

So they could not come back to the garden until the mid-60s. This is something painful.

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They did not even tell people in their community that they were working in the garden, many of them. And the garden has been on a mission to remember those gardeners because they were never recognized. The garden was dedicated to honoring the memory.

It incorporates different glass sculptures from Dale Chihuly. And that sculpture includes all of the colors that were the colors of Azalea, Seth Garner's Planet, and the title of it is Chiffon and Sangria Azalea Chandelier. That whole piece, it sort of exemplified what the gardeners went through. The work they went through, the transparency, the delicacy of what they did. It so massive and so beautiful and so ornate and so intricate with roots and pieces that you have to stand in awe and watch it. And so the garden is dedicated to remembering how they got where they are because it would not be there had it not been for them.

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BLACKWELL: Thank you for joining me today. Smerconish is up next.

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