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Inside Politics

Russia Discussed information About Trump; Confidence in Kushner; Kushner Met with Russian Executive; White House Slams New Russian Report; Trump Takes Swipe at Germany; Macron Veers Past Trump. Aired 12-12:30p ET

Aired May 30, 2017 - 12:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[12:00:00] KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: Thank you so much.

ED LAVANDERA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I might be back in a couple of weeks actually. Their -- the governor of Texas is considering a special session. So they might all be together in the same room. A little Kumbaya moment here in a couple of weeks.

BOLDUAN: Stand by for more. Kumbaya it is.

Great to see you all. Thanks so much for joining us AT THIS HOUR. "Inside Politics" with John King starts right now.

JOHN KING, CNN ANCHOR: Thank you, Kate.

And welcome to INSIDE POLITICS. I'm John King. Thanks for sharing your day with us.

President Trump again tweets his frustrations with a Russia election meddling investigation that now includes big questions about his son- in-law.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. AL FRANKEN (D), MINNESOTA: Look, this -- we have a special prosecutor. We're going to be looking at this. You know, this might be -- come out to when -- you know, what did the president know and when did his son-in-law tell him?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: Plus, the first shoe drops in a White House shakeup and the first public comment from Robert Mueller since he became special counsel overseeing the big investigation.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ROBERT MUELLER, SPECIAL COUNSEL IN RUSSIA INVESTIGATION: You can be smart, aggressive, articulate, indeed persuasive, but if you are not honest, your reputation will suffer. And once lost, a good reputation can never ever be regain.

(END VIDEO CLIP) KING: And this morning a trademark Trump counter punch. He slams Germany after its chancellor says the new White House can't always be trusted to lead.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANGELA MERKEL, GERMAN CHANCELLOR (through translator): Trans-Atlantic relations are of immense importance for us all. They rest on mutual values and interest, particularly when we are in times, as we are now, of intense challenges. The last few days showed me that the days where we could completely rely on others are over.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: With us to share their reporting and their insights, Carol Lee of "The Wall Street Journal," CNN's Phil Mattingly, Perry Bacon of FiveThirtyEight, and Mary Katharine Ham of "The Federalist."

In a moment, the goings and comings at the Trump White House as the president's frustrations with the Russia election meddling investigation brings a bit of a staff reorganization. First, though, the investigation itself and why several new wrinkles matter. Here's one. CNN has learned that during last year's campaign Russian government officials discussed potentially derogatory information about then candidate Donald Trump and some of his top aides. Dana Bash is part of the team of CNN reporters who broke this story and joins us with more.

Dana.

DANA BASH, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, John, two former intelligence officials and a congressional source tell CNN that Russian government officials discussed having potentially, quote, "derogatory information" about then presidential candidate Donald Trump and some of his top aides in conversations intercepted by U.S. intelligence during the 2016 election. Now, one source described the information as financial in nature and said the discussion centered around whether the Russians had leverage with Trump's inner circle. Now the source says that the intercepted communications suggested to the U.S. intelligence officials that Russians believed, quote, "they had the ability to influence the administration through the derogatory information." But the sources privy to the description said the communications written by U.S. intelligence cautioned that the Russian claims to each other could have been exaggerated or even made up.

Now, the details of the communication shed new light on information, U.S. intelligence received about Russian claims of influence. The contents of the conversations made clear to U.S. officials that Russia was considering ways to influence the election, even if their claims turned out to be false. CNN first reported the U.S. intercepted discussions of Russian officials bragging about cultivating relationships with Trump campaign aides, including Trump's first national security adviser, Michael Flynn, as a way to influence Trump.

Now, following CNN's report, "The New York Times" said that Trump's campaign chairman -- former campaign chairman, Paul Manafort, was also discussed.

KING: Dana, in terms of this alleged financial information, do we know who the Russians were specifically talking about in the Trump inner circle?

BASH: Well, none of the sources would say which specific Trump aides were discussed. One of the officials said the intelligence report masked the American names, but it was clear the conversations revolved around the Trump campaign team. Another source wouldn't give specifics citing the classified nature of the information.

But asked for comment, we should tell you, that the White House tells CNN the following. "This is yet another round of false and unverified claims made by anonymous sources to smear the president. The reality is a review of the president's income from the last ten years showed he had virtually no financial ties at all. There appears to be no limit to which the president's political opponents will go to perpetuate this false narrative, including illegally leaking classified material. All this does is play into the hands of our adversaries and put our country at risk."

And, John, the Office of Director of National Intelligence, the FBI, neither commented. And the president himself, of course, has insisted on multiple he has had no financial dealings with Russia.

KING: And so let me toss this one at you. Do the intelligence officials in the United States think the Russians really had this information about Trump and his associates, or could the Russians have been saying, you know what, the United States is listening to us, let's just make something up?

[12:05:08] BASH: That is a really important question. And the answer is, we don't know. One of the things that we have been learning, and the challenge for investigators we know throughout the course of reporting and looking into this whole issue with Russia trying to influence the election is frankly how crafty they were and they still are apparently in trying to spread disinformation. So our sources acknowledge it is possible in this case, but we also know that the financial entanglements of some people associated with Trump are part of the investigation into Russia meddling.

KING: Part of the investigation and knowing the end of that investigation might help us and certainly would help people watching at home who will get confused by this.

Dana Bash, thank you very much.

The president made clear yet again this morning he sees all of this as a joke. Quote, "Russian officials must be laughing at the United States and how a lame excuse for why the Democrats lost the election has taken over fake news." That's in a morning tweet from the president. One of his top aides went on television to defend the president's right hand man who happens to be his son-in-law.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) KELLYANNE CONWAY, COUNSELOR TO PRESIDENT TRUMP: Jared Kushner has said from the very beginning he's willing to go and share any information that he has with Congress, with the FBI.

I think it's very important to recognize that the president has expressed full confidence in Jared Kushner and also went on to note the considerable progress and very large important portfolio that Jared oversees here at the White House.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: Just a few points of note here as to why Kushner matters beyond his family ties and proximity to the president. Remember, Jared Kushner met with Russia's ambassador in early December during the presidential transition. He then met at the ambassador's suggestion with a Russian banker who not only was the subject of U.S. sanctions at the time, but who was well known as a former spy and confidant of Vladimir Putin. Kushner then failed to disclose those contacts on the form he filled out to get his security clearance.

Welcome to the new phase (ph). Sorry to keep you all waiting as we went through that windup there.

Why does this matter? I mean beyond the fact that we know the president's conduct in firing James Comey is under investigation by the special counsel. Now we know the president's right hand man, who sits across the hall in the West Wing, is -- has some questions to answer in the FBI and to Congress about this. In the current state of play in this White House, why does this matter?

CAROL LEE, "THE WALL STREET JOURNAL": Because this is the closest that this investigation has gotten to the president. This is -- obviously we've seen that this is -- this investigation has hung over the White House since the -- since the president was inaugurated. But there's always been this -- a little bit of a buffer around the president. And now you have his most senior and closest adviser, next to his daughter, and who has a very broad portfolio and there's still a number of questions that have not yet been answered about his contacts with the Russians, the nature of the contacts with the Russians, you know, what his motivations were for some of these meetings. And so that's why it matters. And it's going to be very difficult -- you know, I was on the president's foreign trip and when the news of Jared Kushner started to break, you know, you could kind of find it difficult to find White House officials, whereas it was easier before that. And -- and that's because this is the most significant thing to happen in the course of this investigation for the president.

PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Obviously the stature of the aide matters, the stature of Jared Kushner matters immensely, but it's the questions. I think that there just simply aren't any answers to. The stories, the explanations for why certain meetings happen, some diverge (ph) depending on who you're talking to, whether it's Russian officials, whether it's Russian bank officials, whether it's the White House. And I think what this does right now -- and it's worth noting, Jared Kushner and his team have made very clear he is willing to come up and speak with anybody. They said in March he was willing to come up and meet with the Senate Intelligence Committee. They have not backed off that claim in the wake of what's happened over the last week. That's saying something, that he's willing to do that, voluntarily, without any protection as he goes into that. Clearly shows their kind of position on this.

But the fact that all of these questions are hanging out there, the fact that he's that close to the president, and the fact that this investigation, as it moves forward, is in clearly a more serious phase, the posture of both the Senate and House intelligence committees is in a different level than it was a couple of weeks ago. Obviously, Bob Mueller, the special counsel, being involved ratchets things up to a different level as well. And his name being involved in the unanswered questions that sit out there right now makes this significantly more noteworthy than it was even ten days ago.

KING: And --

PERRY BACON, FIVETHIRTYEIGHT: Right, and part because Michael Flynn and Paul Manafort, who have been involved throughout this, don't work -- don't work at the White House right now. So now we have someone who's sitting at the White House in all these meetings whose -- I would assume also being distracted themselves from thinking about whether the health care bill, what we're doing -- what we're doing abroad, he's going to be thinking about himself as well and whether he's in any kind of legal jeopardy.

KING: Oh, you mean the Trump agenda that we could be talking about more on into the Trump presidency.

BACON: That we could be talking about. Never talk about at all.

KING: I want you to listen in to James Clapper. Jams Clapper was the director of national intelligence, served in several administrations, but was in that job when the Obama administration ended, left as the Trump administration came in. He's talking here, not just about Jared Kushner, but he says when he was in the intelligence community, during the presidential campaign, and then during the transition, they saw a number of meetings. Remember, U.S. officials eavesdrop on Russian officials. So they see these meetings that Kushner is having. They see the meetings that Mike Flynn is having and they're getting a little curious about them. Listen to Director Clapper here trying to put it into context and then, at the end, saying something I think we can all agree with.

[12:10:06] (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JAMES CLAPPER, FORMER DIR. OF NATIONAL INTELLIGENCE: I will just say that there were a series of communications and dialogues that we grew -- I say we, the members of the intelligence community were aware of this -- were very concerned about. We didn't know the intent, didn't know -- and certainly didn't know the substance of these conversations and dialogues. And so what this merits, what it requires, I think, is a -- is an airing, a transparency and a play out this investigation. This -- this is something that the country badly needs to clear up this cloud that's -- that's hanging over us right now.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: A couple of very important points there. Number one, he pushes back on the president, saying this is all fake news. There's no need for an investigation, saying I don't know how it's going to turnout. But we saw a number of things that concerned us that made no sense, that were out of normal protocol and the FBI should investigate them. And then in the last point, the end, was the point I meant that everyone could say amen to, which is, we need to get this over with and thy need to, you know, get to a point where there's a report and transparency and whether you agree with the president, disagree with the president, think he did something horrible, aren't sure of what he did, that the American people get a report they can trust and move on.

MARY KATHARINE HAM, "THE FEDERALIST": Yes, I'm with him on that. I think that's the healthiest thing for democracy is to actually have a conclusion to this. And I think the middle part that we're in with the dueling leaks actually often doesn't help us get there.

A couple of things to keep in mind. I think the meeting with the banker is one of the more problematic meetings we've seen between Trump folks and the Russians. That being said, it means something that Jared Kushner wants -- is willing to come to The Hill and talk about it. Reporters in these -- in both the Flynn story and this most recent one about the derogatory stuff have been cautioned -- have cautions themselves to say Russians may be exaggerating much of this.

Also I would note, wasn't everybody discussing derogatory -- potentially derogatory information about the Trump candidacy during that time? So I'm not sure that I'm convinced that's a bigger thing that what we were -- what was already out in the open about him.

But, look, this is just piling on a narrative, which is what the president is upset about. But they have given the narrative to people by not being transparent about this. If, in fact, Jared Kushner was not doing anything wrong, he could have put it on the form.

KING: Right, he could have put it on the form and he could -- he could step out. (INAUDIBLE) you mentioned, and to his credit, he says he's willing to testify on Capitol Hill. Do we know when that's going to happen? Obviously they have to coordinate now with the special counsel investigation, which needs to interview their witnesses and people of interest as well. But to the point you made, why was he meeting during the transition at the ambassador's suggestion with a Russian banker who, go to your search engine, ladies and gentlemen, who is known as a Putin confidant, a banker under sanctions, a private citizen who's about to come into a new administration, a lot of people say should not be meeting with a Russian banker close to Putin under U.S. sanctions.

LEE: Right. And I think the question is, the White House has said that he did not -- that Jared Kushner did not discuss business or sanctions in this meeting. And I think if you're looking at it from the outside, it could be hard to imagine that those issues wouldn't come up given who this bank -- what this bank is, how close it is to Putin, how much the sanctions were important to them. So, again, I think that we are back in a place where there are more questions than there are answers and it's just going it continue and -- to feel it.

KING: And this is why we need that testimony because Sergey Gorkov, who's the banker in question, his statement after this all became public knowledge said he discussed Kushner and Company business, discussed, you know, private real estate dealing business with Jared Kushner. Jared Kushner, through his spokesman has said, no, he discussed U.S. government business and just essentially having a dialogue with the Kremlin about -- so that they could get off the ground running.

LEE: The bank also said that this meeting was part of a series of meetings and no one's been able to find the other meetings that this particular banker has had with other -- in terms of, you know, the idea that they were on a tour of talking to American companies and no one's been able to figure out who else he would have met with.

KING: And as we move into the next chapter of this investigation, we know the president's new top lawyer, outside lawyer, Marc Kasowitz, was at the White House this weekend. Marc Kasowitz, excuse me. He has been loyal to Trump for about 15 years and he's going to be the senior guy. He's going to be the senior guy who hires a team of esteemed Washington lawyers. We also know that Jared Kushner has a very accomplished attorney, Jamie Gorelick, who was an attorney in the Clinton administration, worked in the Justice Department in the Clinton administration, and who knows how these things work.

As you build the legal teams, what does that tell us about, again, how this week is different from say last week or two weeks ago in terms of, a, the legal ramifications and the caution you need to take if you're one of the people involved and what it does to the president doing his job, his day job?

BACON: Yes, this went (ph) to the idea that Kushner would do a press conference and say, no, this did not happen, this -- I think we're past that now.

KING: I know --

HAM: His lawyers would probably saying no to that.

BACON: His lawyers would probably say no and maybe hell no even. So I think we're past that.

KING: I know Jamie Gorelick and I think -- I think not.

MATTINGLY: It's reality, right? It's a recognition of the reality. Whether or not they think they did anything wrong and the White House makes very clear, one, they don't think they did anything wrong, and, two, they believe that this is a narrative designed intentionally to take down the president by people that are upset with the election results. And that's not a messaging point from them. When you talk to the White House, there are many people -- and Carol would know better than me -- but there are many people in there who firmly believe this is absolutely a conspiracy. Nothing they saw over the course of the campaign would indicate that they did anything wrong at all. That might be the case. But when lawyers get involved, it's a recognition that like, hey, this is serious.

[12:15:24] KING: Right.

MATTINGLY: You can say stuff right now, whether on a social media platform or off the cuff at a press conference or testifying in front of a Senate committee that could get you in very big trouble if you're not sure to cross your t's and dot your i's.

KING: Right.

HAM: I would -- yes, I would say that's the term for me that's interesting because even if there is no -- ultimately no nefariousness but sloppiness or what have you at the -- at the base of this, when you get lawyers involved, you get to this level, folks who say things sloppily or carelessly, as sometimes this White House and its officials have been known to do in these situations, can get themselves in trouble regardless of what was the basis of the investigation.

And then the other thing is, once you start lawyering up, a White House, an administration that's already sort of understaffed and having trouble bringing new people on, in a shake-up for instance, is going to have I think more trouble convincing folks on its smallest of people they trust to come on because they're going to have to lawyer up maybe at some point. And that's a lot of personal expense. And you're just going into a whole 'nother level here.

KING: Right, and we'll get to more on that later. You can see the president kind of tightening the circle around him at a time he might need more help at the White House. It's a natural human reflex to pull into your tighter circle at a time of crisis.

Everyone sit tight.

Ahead, one senior White House staffer is out and some old campaign hands are in, as the president shifts to crisis management.

Next, though, point, counterpoint. The president fires back in a high stakes sparring match with one of America's most important European allies.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[12:21:01] KING: Welcome back.

President Trump is back home from his big overseas trip, but sparring with one of America's biggest European allies continues. A morning tweet complains, "we have a massive trade deficit with Germany, plus they pay far less than they should on NATO and on military. Very bad for the United States. This will change."

Now, if you remember the campaign, the president likes to call himself a counter puncher. And the tweet was no doubt a response to this dis from the German chancellor, Angela Merkel.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) MERKEL (through translator): We are convinced Trans-Atlantic

(INAUDIBLE) and precisely because we are, we know that Trans-Atlantic relations are of immense importance for us all. They rest on mutual values and interest, particularly when we are in times, as we are in now, of intense challenges. The last few days showed me that the days where we could completely rely on others are over.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: What are we to make of this in the sense that we do -- the United States does have a big trade deficit with Germany. After China, it's number two and three. Japan and Germany tend to be pretty close in that race. The president, during the campaign, promised he was going to deal with this. But his critics would say there's a more graceful way to air these grievances, especially when the person at the other end of the complaint list is Angela Merkel, who is such an important European ally in Germany and why is he so tough on her, they would say, when he's so nice to people like the president of Egypt or the king of Saudi Arabia.

LEE: That was one of the striking things about this trip, which was, we started in Saudi Arabia and then went to Israel. And while the president was in the Middle East and meeting with all these leaders, he was very differential, he was very kind, it was all carrots. And then you moved into Europe and his speech at -- in Brussels on NATO was very harsh and, you know, all the leaders were kind of standing around looking at each other and you saw him take a much more strident approach to allies.

Angela Merkel is one of -- you know, Germany has become with the U.K. leaving the European Union, Germany's importance has only increased in terms of relations with the U.S. And yet, you know, you saw the president, he was very critical in private meetings about saying Germany's very bad in terms of trade deficits, which, as you point out, they're not great. But his approach was very sticks. It was all, you know, lecturing and, you know, being harsh and telling -- and saying that they're not doing enough and they're not stepping up enough.

And I think to European allies they were kind of taken aback by it because they -- the president -- they had felt that at least, you know, he wasn't going to come there and do that. And when they had given them a bunch of things, you remember, he arrived in Brussel and they had taken steps on foreign fighters, they had taken steps to move towards counterterrorism and they felt that they were giving him a lot of things. And so, in return, they weren't going to get this sort of finger wagging that they did get.

KING: But they did get it. And the German counter argument is, yes, we have a trade deficit with the United States, but we also buy a lot from the United States, second only to the U.K. in Europe in terms of U.S. products bought. German diplomats also say, you know, Mercedes Benz and BMW have plants in the United States that employ a lot of Americans. You really want to have this fight, Mr. President?

But -- but, if you're a Trump loyalist or you're the president, this is part of the issue Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, Michigan, trade, he believe in his heart, trade is why he's president of the United States.

MATTINGLY: And those automotive plants are in states where the president did very, very well, which is in -- something -- look, context here is important in the sense of, Angela Merkel's in the midst of a campaign right now and a European taking a shot at an American president, also not something that's totally out of the realm of the ordinary. But what I was struck by I think more than anything else, in the wake of the comments -- I think in the reaction to the comments right now is the importance of the European leg of the trip and just the dynamic and the shift there, which was so crystal clear, as Carol kind of pointed out.

Again, whether you have issues with NATO, whether you have issues with how kind of the E.U. is set up, there was an expectation going into this trip -- and I think we spoke about it before he left -- that everything he talked about on the campaign, he was starting to ratchet back a little bit on foreign policy. His NATO speech was essentially almost without saying they were obsolete kind of going back to a greatest hits from the campaign right now.

[12:25:00] KING: Right.

MATTINGLY: And I think the European leaders, not just from the speech, but just from the private meetings and everything, you're going to see a lot more of that, whether it's what you saw from the leader of France, whether it's what you've seen and heard from the leader of Canada, who, obviously, is our northern neighbor. This is something you're going to see a lot of more from traditional allies. And I think what people are trying to figure out -- when I talk to foreign policy people in the wake of the trip is, is this kind of their -- their doctrine, how it's being molded right now, of, you give carrots to people that maybe aren't the most assured allies in the world and you give sticks to the people that you just assume are always going to be there. That's the realignment that they're going for right now. I think that's a legitimate question that they need to answer, is this all intentional and is this how we plan on running foreign policy going forward.

KING: Right. And you make an important point that, yes, the president is counter punching Angela Merkel and a lot of people, you know, foggy bottom, you can't do that, you can't do that and you can't use that language. They're giving -- they're giving as hard as they're getting because this is -- Trump is an issue in Europe. She's in a campaign. Theresa May publically talking about how she was going to talk about intelligence problems with President Trump. She's in the middle of a campaign. The Italian prime minister today saying the E.U. must take its future into its own hands. And the just elected -- this was one of my favorite moments of the trip, the -- in terms of the theater, the just elected president of France, watch Emmanuel Macron here. He's at the NATO summit. Let's pay this video. He looks like he's making a b- line for President Trump. And then, just watch.

It's Angela Merkel who gets the first embrace from the newly elected president of France. So -- so as much as the president is counter punching for his political purposes, a message he talked on the campaign, they're playing the same game.

HAM: Yes. Angela Merkel is probably not super upset that he tweeted about her today in a campaign sense.

I joked before President Trump left that maybe he didn't have global coverage on his phone and that would help his trip and I may have had a point because since he's been back he's been tweeting more. And I do -- I do think it takes its toll. The first part of that trip, I think pre-NATO, was fairly successful on the way we grade these things. The NATO speech, obviously, I think was a break from tradition in foreign policy and not good for our -- for the western democracies.

But, to come back to start attacking Merkel is classic Trump. But I think the folks who supported him, even some reluctantly, are not made uncomfortable by an American president going to Europe and making European leaders uncomfortable talking about how they have to pay their way in NATO, even if it makes others in this town uncomfortable. So I think that's something to remember, but I don't think it does our alliances any good.

BACON: I would say, this is a lot about policy. I mean think about the Paris agreement. The European leaders really, really support that and Donald Trump sounds like he is going to pull out of it or he doesn't support it. In some of those meetings in private, they push him on it. The pope pushed him on it. There's a big policy issue where there's NATO, where there's climate change. There's a huge gap in policy and I think that's what's driving a lot of this.

I would say also that running as Trump has become something you do in Europe almost the same way John Osoff will. I mean Macron's campaign was very much against Trump. Merkel's is. So is Merkel's opponent right now is attacking Trump as harshly as she is. So it's becoming one way to win election in Europe is to be as anti-Trump as possible. And I don't think that's great for U.S. policy, but I think that's where we are right now.

KING: And we'll see as this sparring continues. As you mentioned, the Paris Climate Accord. The president promises a decision this week. So this could escalate or perhaps maybe a little detante. Who knows? We'll watch that.

Next, a "help wanted" sign at the White House. The Trump communications director is out and some bare-knuckles former campaign aides appear to be back in.

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