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Amtrak Train Dangling onto Highway, Multiple Fatalities. Aired 12:30-1p ET

Aired December 18, 2017 - 12:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[12:30:02] MARY SCHIAVO, FORMER DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION INSPECTOR GENERAL: I mean, there are just so many pieces here that the NTSB will have to look at.

I mean, when I was inspector general, for example, we worked a number of road cases where the guardrails themselves were faulty, where they were bogus, where they were supposed to have certain amounts of strength and they did not. So, we can't really automatically assume that the guardrail cannot hold a speeding train most likely in any situation like that. But many times we found that the guardrails themselves were not sufficient to do the job that they were installed to do. And I doubt those rails that we see in that picture could have held the train.

JOHN KING, INSIDE POLITICS ANCHOR: And as we get more perspective and as we get clearer photos, you'll see more than one train car down on the highway, down from the tracks on the highway that we just had a photo moments ago stunning of a train car overturned literally on its head there. As we tried to assess the number of injuries, I just know if you're watching us on the west coast and you're wondering if you might have family members or friends on this train.

The Washington State Department of Transportation District spokeswoman is tweeting that a family reunification center has been established at DuPont City Hall. Trooper Brooke Bova's tweet just say do not come to the scene. Please do not come to the scene. Many of you if you think you have friends or family or relatives on this train, obviously you have urgent questions at this moment.

But if you look the at scene right here, first respondent and the team are trying to help with the injured. So obviously the Family Reunification Center has been set up. You can get information from local authorities. Going to the scene at this moment is not the place to go.

We still have Richard Beall and Larry Mann with us as well along with Mary Schiavo. Gentlemen, I want to ask you the same question I asked Mary. Do you see more of these photos come in? I go to you first Richard. Do you see more of these photos come in of more than one train car down on the highway?

That's the -- you see the -- that's the tracks coming down. Pieces of this train are broken here, another car overturned on its head. Again, the NTSB team needs to get the black box, needs to get the speed data, needs to get any communications were happening on the train.

But for a preliminary looking at what is now an investigative scene, Richard, to you first. What jumps out when you see -- when we get a more thorough look of just how violence this was have destroyed that train is? We loss Rich.

RICHARD BEALL, RAILROAD OPERATIONS AND SAFETY EXPERT: Are you talking to me? I'm sorry.

KING: Yes, Richard.

BEALL: I'm here. Can you hear me?

KING: Yes, Richard. I'm asking you if when you see these pictures of the pieces of the train and the cars come down from the threshold above onto the highway, anything more from your expertise as a rail safety expert come up to mind when you see the level, specially when you see here pieces broken off the train. Is that caused by the fall, you think?

BEALL: No, that can be caused by anything. The amount of destruction in a high speed accident such at least can be so catastrophic. That trying to surmise from just pieces of wreckage laying around is almost impossible to do.

Looking at the engine just off to the side, it looks to me like if that through with the lead engine, sometimes they do what's called a push-pull. So that -- I don't know, it could have been a rear engine, but it's right there. So it looks to me like the derailment occurred probably well in advance of this overpass and was probably bouncing around and coming off the track before it got there. And it was so far off the track alignment itself that when it got to that bridge with the abutments on both side is when it caused everything to hit the fan and well, it catastrophically derail.

KING: Richard, Larry, and Mary, please stay with us. If you are just joining us at the bottom of the hour, multiple fatalities we are told on the train itself. This is a Cascade Amtrak, Cascades train going from Seattle to Portland.

A multiple fatalities on the train that is share surface so far says miraculously injuries, but no fatalities down on the Interstate 5 there. When you see the first responders responding right now, 77 people we are told at least so far have been taken to local hospitals for treatment. Again, multiple fatalities on the train itself, we don't have a number there.

Let's listen here to an eyewitness describe what she saw. This is from just moments ago.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LORA REED, EYEWITNESS: Just, it's so sad and weird to have something like this happen. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It sounds like --

REED: Yes, yes. Yes, it's very upsetting. Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It looks like it is upsetting.

REED: Yes, it is.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. It was so close. Did you hear anything this morning?

REED: No, I just had just woken up and gotten my coffee and then I started hearing all the sirens and went outside to look because it just seem that there's always something happening around this road area. And I just kind of looked around and checked on my mom next door and got her up and turned on the news. And then we saw it, so.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. And you knew this was actually going to be coming through?

REED: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I guess even this morning that it'll coming -- this was the first train --

REED: Right.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: -- on the new route.

REED: Right.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What do you think of that happening that this was the first one or the first time that --

[12:35:03] REED: Well, I'm just wondering if they did any dry runs on this before the passengers aboard. That's my only concern.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

REED: Yes, it's a terrible thing.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

REED: Very upsetting.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And how do you feel --

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: Eyewitness account there from the scene. Again this is Amtrak, Train 501 Cascades train going from Seattle headed to Portland in the morning rush hour on the Pacific Northwest. You see obviously right there a derailment, one car tipping off the threshold down towards the highway and other cars down on the highway. This is Interstate 5, a very important interstate running north and south along the west coast. Richard Beall and Larry Mann are still with me on the phone, both railway safety experts. Larry, to you. Again, I was asking Richard before we listen to the eyewitness there, as you see these pictures and the destruction and then -- I think more than when we originally started the conversation, more cars down below onto the highway level of this. What are your questions?

LARRY MANN, ATTORNEY AND RAIL EXPERT: Well, with that many cars derailed, it's not unusual I wouldn't think because the train was going probably at least 79 miles an hour, maybe more. If there was defective track or overspeed, these many cars would likely derail, particularly at an overpass. So, that's not unusual as far as I'm concerned.

More important to me would be the movement of the train, speed-wise, the track conditions, preliminary testing of the train movements. And also the two employees being on the locomotive, I think is very critical.

KING: And to our viewers, I just want to let you know again, as we say there were multiple fatalities on the train. We don't know how many. We're trying to get information from Amtrak and local officials. There are multiple injuries down on the ground below. Seventy seven people as you can see there on your screen have been taken to local hospitals.

Amtrak tweeting out a short time ago, individuals with questions about their friends and family on that train 501 should call 1-800-523-9101. That's 1-800-523-9101. That is if you have questions about friends and family on that train. Please don't call that number just for basic information.

Use that number only if you think you might have friends, family members or relatives on that train. That is 1-800-523-9101. A family reunification center has also been set up in the town of DuPont. We know that.

Richard Beall, back to you. Based on your expertise and what we have seen here, obviously, priority one for the first responders is treating the injured on the scene. Going through the train to make sure they have everybody out of that train to try to deal with that. From an investigative standpoint, when the NTSB arrives, what are steps one, two, and three?

BEALL: Well, I promise you, the first thing they're going to do is go back on the tracks, however, far distance it is until they see the point where the very first wheel came off. You'll start seeing where the flanges came off of the high part of the rail start hitting the cross side. And that will give them the first indication.

Before that even happens, there may be something so catastrophic with the track or whatever that it will tell them what happened. In other words, maybe they found a wheel that disintegrated on one of the rail cars or maybe something to do with a piece of apparatus underneath one of the cars dropped down and caused that particular car. They will go back to that point at the very first point of whatever happened and it will give them a pretty good idea of what took place.

KING: OK. And Richard first and then to Larry. When you look at that picture right there, you can see a car behind but the train car is dangling over the highway. Knowing what you know about the trains and about derailments and you look at this here, there are likely passengers on that car, people on the highway below trying to get to work in the morning. Richard, what goes to your mind when you just see a train car like that literally dangling, not just over any road but in an interstate highway?

BEALL: Well, that's a worst case scenario right there. Anything to do with an overturned car or something such as this were virtually dangling in space. The conductor on the train if he has not been incapacitated or whether he's able to move around himself and hopefully there may be an assistant conductor on train as well. And being that it's an inaugural run, they may have other railroad employees available as well have made their way through the end of the car so they can pry the doors open to try to get down there and help those people and maybe, you know, they be chime (ph) out the end of the car into the more stable cars.

We don't know. If they are too bad, it probably can't touch them and they have to worry for the first responders to get to them with some sort of breaking out of the emergency glass.

[12:40:07] So these cars all have multiple glass windows that are designated, an emergency window where you just look to see out and push the window up and get into them with ladders.

KING: Right. And as you can see if you look right there, you see the car dangling over the Interstate and you see another car underneath that underpass there on its side or on its head on the Interstate as well. First responders on the scene. We are continuing to try to get new information.

Multiple fatalities aboard Amtrak train 501 leaving Seattle headed to Portland, Oregon. Multiple fatalities of the train. We don't know the numbers just yet. Multiple injuries. Miraculously, the sheriff says at least so far no fatalities on the highway down below.

We'll continue reporting on this breaking news story when we back after a quick break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: Welcome back. I'm John King in Washington. We're following sad breaking news in Washington State this hour.

[12:45:04] An Amtrak passenger train has derailed south Tacoma and Seattle during the peak of rush hour of the west coast. You can see from the pictures, a train, one of the cars now dangling over Interstate 5. Amtrak Cascades, train 501 was in route from Seattle to Portland. There were approximately 78 passengers, five crew members on board according to Amtrak authorities.

A local hospital telling CNN, 77 people were taken to area hospitals for treatment. The local Sheriff's office says there are multiple fatalities onboard the train itself, but there were no fatalities in the vehicles below. There were injuries though down as you see that scene playing out on Interstate 5.

All the southbound lanes on Interstate 5 are blocked by the accident. The sheriff's spokesman saying they will be closed for some times. Interstate 5 southbound will be closed for some time.

Last hour, CNN's Kate Bolduan talked to an eyewitness about just what happened.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

GREG MUKAI, WITNESS: I was just traveling to work this morning along I-5 and we all came to sudden halt right after passing DuPont heading south. And, you know, we all just tried to stop really quickly to avoid run into each other to be honest. And once we all came to a stop, we have to looked up and see unfortunate there's like really scary thing, like you said, turning hanging up on the other pass. And lots of military personnel and people on their car run to try to help the best they could.

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR (voice-over): Is it -- from your perspective, could you see -- was it hanging, was it on the highway or hanging over the highway?

MUKAI: So, from what I could tell, it had -- something had happened to cause it to come off the tracks and it actually crash onto the freeway. Some cars were involved. There was a back up of cars as a result. So it's not just hanging off, it actually came off of the track side onto the highway there.

BOLDUAN (voice-over): And did it hit -- did it come in contact with the cars on the highway?

MUKAI: That's what it looked like. I couldn't tell you how many. I didn't want to get too close. I'm not skilled with first aid or anything like that so I just tried to stay out of the way.

BOLDUAN (voice-over): And you said the people were getting out of their cars going to offer help. What can you tell us? What did you see?

MUKAI: No, we're just south of the military base, Forth Lewis -- Joint Base Lewis-McChord. And, you know, a lot of folks in there ran out to try to help. So, those military folks were stepping up.

Like I said, I don't have those skills. But -- and then many people who tried to get first aid kits out of their cars, you know, and extra clothes to help, you know, to help more men in military.

BOLDUAN (on camera): Are you -- I assume, are you -- you are no longer in the traffic. Are you have to -- where are you now?

MUKAI: They just started turning us around and heading back north away from the incident. BOLDUAN (voice-over): So this is very much still ongoing as we speak.

MUKAI: Absolutely. There are a ton of first aid and medic cars, fire trucks, state patrol, local police, you name it. They're all there.

BOLDUAN (voice-over): Did you see anyone who appeared to be injured from your advantage point when you're out there?

MUKAI: I didn't see anybody injured at the time. I took that video and tried to run and help in some folks. As I was sitting in my car, you do see people obviously being taken to first aid vehicles -- the medic vehicles and on stretchers and back board and such.

BOLDUAN (voice-over): How are -- From what you could see, how are folks being taken off the train? I mean, it's dangling. It's on the highway.

MUKAI: I'm can't answer to that. I'm not seeing it. Yes, I'm not seeing it.

BOLDUAN (voice-over): OK.

MUKAI: I can't tell you how they are doing that. I did see some emergency personnel on the tracks trying to evaluate it but I wasn't there to be able to speak to that.

BOLDUAN (voice-over): OK. So, right now traffic is still -- is traffic still stopped? Are you guys -- you're getting turned around and you're getting moved out of the way?

MUKAI: We are getting moved out of the way, so we're really close. All the traffic that is behind is being diverted either, you know, any way they can. Right now, both sides of the freeway, north and south are closed at that overpass.

BOLDUAN (voice-over): OK.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: Eyewitness accounts there provided to Kate, last hour. Just harrowing. It is mind-boggling, unimaginable to imagine being in that train car dangling over the Interstate and other train car underneath the underpass there. Just hard to imagine what it was like to be on that train at that moment.

Here in Washington, on the east coast, President Trump has been brief we are told the Homeland Security Secretary also gathering information on this, and the National Transportation Safety Board now sending what it calls a Go Team to the derailment side. Their job is to try to find out exactly what happened and gather the relevant information.

Joining us on the phone to help with that, Richard Beall, a railroad operations and safety expert, Larry Mann, an attorney and a rail expert who authored the federal Railway Safety Act. Larry, let me start with you. And again, as we have this conversation, we are trying to find out what the investigators need to find out. What exactly happened here.

Just from a human perspective, looking at that train dangling over an interstate highway, it is harrowing to think of what must have happened on that train. Now when you hear the information, 78 passengers approximately and five crew members, five crew members. Does that sound right, five crew members on the train?

[12:50:11] MANN: Yes, it does. Typically, there will be just on the Amtrak trains, just an engineer on the locomotive and assistance in the train itself, conductors, et cetera. So that's typical.

What is concerning again is the point that I made before and that is had there been two persons in the locomotive and we don't know. But the chances are there were not. These would certainly assist if there were issues of employee error. If the issues were with the train itself, the black box will certainly help determine that.

Speed is an issue possibly, the track possibly defective. And there may be wheel defects. Defects on the train, we don't know. But these are the issues that certainly will be at the forefront of the NTSB. The black box itself will give all the instrumentation of the train operations including the signals, the brake application, speed, et cetera.

So they will have the basic information they need to make a determination if any of those issues were involved. I think that would be the important part of the initial investigation by both NTSB and the Federal Railroad Administration.

KING: Mary Schiavo, the former Inspector General for the Department of Transportation and CNN contributor is back with us.

Mary, I want to ask you the same context I just asked Larry. Seventy eight passengers, five crew members on this train and what was the inaugural run of this service by Amtrak 501 Cascades Seattle to Portland. If that's routine, is it sufficient five people on the train -- five crew on that train?

SCHIAVO: Well, it's probably sufficient depending upon what the services were for the passengers. Yes, given modern trains, I mean, you know, less people than that can actually run the train. There were so many things that are now automated on modern trains.

I think one of the things the NTSB is going to zero in on are the reports in the local media from Washington that they were modifying and testing this track and the services early as of the beginning of December. And there was a lot of criticism over opening this high speed train through these lines where there are curves where the train was required to slow down.

There was one point in this route where they were going to be routed and apparently were routed off to a city, you know, a different train track and the other one a city interline track paralleling this highway. And so, this train service was not without significant amounts of criticism from local leaders before it ever started for speed issues. KING: The speed issues. And obviously, the questions now will deal with speed issues, will deal with the crew, whether there are any human errors involved as well. Obviously, urgent questions for any family members or relatives who think they might have someone on that train. We are told again 78 passengers approximately several fatalities on the train. Amtrak has a 1-800 number to call if you have questions. Please don't call it unless you think you had somebody on this train.

Obviously, officials locally, first responders here in Washington trying to get information as well among them, Washington's Senator Maria Cantwell who twitted a bit earlier following the derailment near Olympia closely praying for everyone on board affected by this. "Thanks to our first responders, follow @washington_tacoma and WSPD-1 PIO." That's the Public Information Office for updated information. Very important for those of you on the west coast or anywhere who think you might have friends who are passengers on that train.

Just moments ago, we did get some details on the early aspects of the investigation from Ed Troyer. He's the spokesman for the Pierce County Sheriff's Office. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ED TROYER, MEDIA RELATIONS OF PIERCE COUNTY SHERIFF'S OFFICE: Now we know that we have multiple fatales in the train, no fatales on the roadway. As you can see by the large response, we've extricated the Fire Departments now. Many people and they have taken them out of the train. They've been transported to the hospitals.

People that weren't able to walk are fire down under those tents being cared for by a multiple groups. It's going to be a long time. There's damage to the bridge. There's damage to multiple vehicles down below, damage to the ground rounds --

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: We're going to go back live to the scene now. The Sheriff is speaking again, sorry for the confusion. Let's listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Right now, what I can tell you is that State Patrol has closed all of the southbound I-5. They're working with the state -- I'm sorry, with DOT and other law enforcement agencies getting people diverted and off of southbound I-5. We're asking people to please stay off of I-5 because you don't need to be here.

[12:55:07] This is obviously going to take all day if not a couple of days to get this being cleared and investigated. The traffic is still able to get through northbound I-5 within two lanes. And right now we're just providing any assistance that Amtrak and NTSB are asking of us right now. We are also providing resources. We're escorting supplies and resources to the scene that are having difficulty and adopt that. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm not sure if you have an answer, but we talked a lot about the new tracks, 14 miles of new upgraded tracks that Amtrak talked about. Was the place where the train derailed part of that new portion?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don't know. I'm sorry. I don't know that.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What can you tell us about injuries and fatalities?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I can't give any updates on that at this point. I'm still trying to get in touch with Amtrak to get coordinated, but that's it. But until I can get in touch with them, I can't really give any information.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But you say it's been difficult to get in touch with Amtrak?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Obviously it is. As you can tell, you can hear my phone blowing off right now. I'm getting blown up. I'm sure I'm just having a hard time getting in touch with their PIOs. They're probably having a hard time filtering out my phone call versus those media phone calls. So, as soon as they get back to me, I'll get more information.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Where were the injured all taken to?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don't know that at this time.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What about is the rescue efforts still under way?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, it is.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What is happening in your understanding right now?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I can't speak on that. I don't -- that would have to come from fire. I don't -- I'm not obviously not down at the scene and I don't know what's they're doing. I'm sorry.

We do have a family reunification center that to people had family members on the train, we please ask them to not come to the scene, but go to DuPont City Hall. And the family members will be bus there and they have already taken some buses there.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So are you saying it is possible southbound I-5 here could be shut down for several days?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don't believe southbound I-5 will be shutdown for several days, but we will be investigating for several days. This I-5 will be shutdown I would say probably a good remainder of the day. And we are working with Joint Base Lewis-McChord and hopefully we can get some other detours going into get people around the base and use some other access routes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So as you're hearing from state patrol that this is still a rescue operation again as we've been saying firefighters on top of those train part --

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: So, local affiliate reporter there speaking. If you just heard a police briefing about some of the injuries on the scene, they are the investigation underway. You can see there the train dangling over Interstate 5 and another train car down on the scene in the local area.

The state police just saying there the Interstate 5 in the southbound will close at least for today. Governor Jay Inslee just short time ago releasing this statement today's tragic incident in Pierse County, this is serious and ongoing emergency. Truly, and I holding in our hearts everyone onboard and I'm praying for the many injured. They are a top priority and I know first responders are doing everything to ensure everyone has the care they need.

Everyone should avoid traveling I-5. And Washington Department of Transportation working to open alternative routes through the area during this emergency response. The governor going out that as he spoke with his cabinet today, they are in touch with Amtrak and working to get as much information as possible.

Former Transportation Department Inspector General Mary Schiavo is still with me. Mary, and the time we have left, the Go Team from the NTSB is on the way. That is what they do. They send them in. From what you're seeing here and what you know about how the investigation unfolds, take us through the next through the next steps.

SCHIAVO: Well, first and foremost, they're going to get those black boxes and start the download and then start the analysis on those black boxes. They have a good head start because the testing on this tracks for this train and for this new service, the modifications that were necessary, the evaluation of the tracks, the curves, the speed limit. That was done and was finished literally at the beginning of this month.

So Amtrak will have a -- excuse me, the NTSB will have a lot of data to determine what Amtrak did to get the service ready and if the tracks and all the working parts were ready to go. So they will have a lot of analysis of the tracks and the situation to go back and look at to see if that was done properly and prepared to start this inaugural service and then, of course, they're going to look at things because their job is to help us in the future. So there aren't so many losses or casualties or crashes.

They're going to look at everything from the survivability of the train cars and crumple zones. They will look at the seats and the seatbelt issues. Is it time to require people to sit down? It should be a huge difference for trains.

They will look at so many issues because in the long run their goal is to stop accidents and to keep casualties and injuries from happening. But they are going to have an awful lot of data with the black box and looking at what was done to allow this train to run high speed service over these old tracks and what were the modifications. Knowing the NTSB and how it works, they might know the answer right with those two things.

KING: An excellent insight. And Mary is in the right question. Mary Schiavo, we appreciate your help throughout the hour.

Again, this is Amtrak Cascades 501 in route from Seattle to Portland. You see the devastation right over Interstate 5. Right there, multiple fatales on the train and injuries down below. First responders on the scene, we have reporters there everywhere trying to get more information.

Wolf Blitzer picks up our breaking news coverage right now.

WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, I'm Wolf Blitzer.