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Inside Politics

Trump Falsely Claims He Never Said Russia Did Not Meddle; Pruitt Postpones Israel Trip Amid Travel Controversy; Security Clearance Overhaul; Florida Shooter Appears In Court. Aired 12:30-1pm ET

Aired February 19, 2018 - 12:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[12:30:02] JONATHAN MARTIN, NATIONAL POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT, THE NEW YORK TIMES: How many members of Congress do you think even notice that? How many would even know who that is?

I mean, it's just -- there is so much every day in this gusher of news that sometimes we overlook these statements that are quite remarkable. And basically a paid White House staffer saying that the U.S. media and the opposition party were somehow worse actors than a foreign adversary.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: A multi-million-dollar spy ring trying to hack the election.

MARTIN: Yes, big, it's true, exactly. So -- but, you know, it's so far from the course here. And Bob Dole once said, John, where is the outrage, right?

BERMAN: And Bob Dole did in fact say that. He's still saying that, as far as I'm concerned, you know,.

And, Caitlin, Rush Limbaugh again had an interesting take on this. You know, Hogan Gidley said what he said. The president was criticizing aspects of the investigation but also in a way accepting some of them also. Listen to what Rush says.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RUSH LIMBAUGH, CONSERVATIVE TALK SHOW HOST: The danger for the president is, it would be very I think seductive for him to embrace this. Totally embraced this. See, see, I've been vindicated.

The worst thing he could do in his world is to validate this whole investigation by claiming victory here. Because what if, down the road, there is another indictment or series of indictments that do name Trump or do name the Russians and Trump campaign colluding, because that's what this is about.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: So it's interesting because the president did said, "Aha, look at this, there is no allegation of collusion inside this indictment. I'm vindicated." But Rush Limbaugh says that's a trap. CAITLIN HUEY-BURNS, NATIONAL POLITICAL REPORTER, REALCLEARPOLITICS: Right, and if you look at Rosenstein's comments, a lot of people were pointing to the way in which he said, this indictment does not show collusion.

But look, I mean, we know the president is unable to separate out allegations of collusion with Russian meddling in the campaign as some Republicans on Capitol Hill have been able to say, look, we're not questioning the results of this election, but we do have to look into ways we can safeguard the U.S. from this happening.

And again, especially when you have the intelligence chief saying just last week in front of Congress that this is continuing to go on. My question, though, kind of heading forward is, how long does the president kind of keep pointing to this? And does he still have, you know, those allies in Congress who are continuing to kind of undermine the investigation as it continues, kind of still try to muddy the waters? I think that might give us a view of how he's still thinking about this.

BERMAN: I think one thing that gives a view of how he's thinking about this is he was nonstop all weekend writing about it, free association with anything and everything.

MARY KATHARINE HAM, SENIOR WRITER, THE FEDERALIST: Yes. And as usual, he does himself absolutely no favors, particularly the connection of it to the shooting, which is a tragedy and you're using it for your political gain. I will say that the phenomenon of not being able to tell the difference between collusion and meddling is not a phenomenon isolated to just Trump and Republicans. And in fact, there has been much media coverage that has been hysterical about it and not -- often not vetting exactly where things are coming from. Some of them from Russian sources, and I think we need to be tempered about that.

And I don't think that's a terrible point and I am not backing up the spokesperson who said it's worse. I'm just saying that some of the coverage of the last year has been a bit over the top at times and that is not -- that's not something that we should to be proud of.

BERMAN: All right, good. Much more to discuss on this and other things.

Up next, the secretary of state opens up the normally private Rex Tillerson talks about his life, his relationship with the president and other issues in a pretty candid interview on 60 Minutes. Stick around.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[12:37:57] BERMAN: All right. Time for a look at some of the other stories on our political radar, a message from the U.S./Mexico border to Washington, keep trying.

Vice President Mike Pence says Capitol Hill needs to continue working toward an immigration fix even after four separate plans failed in the Senate last week.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MIKE PENCE, VICE PRESIDEN OF THE UNITED STATES: -- And the president's absolutely committed, our whole administration is to work with Republicans in the House and Senate, to work with Democrats in the House and Senate, and find a way to build this wall and to solve the DACA problem and reform our immigration system. It's absolutely imperative we do it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: DACA protections were set to expire on March 5th before the courts got involved. Well, all this only adds the uncertainty for undocumented immigrants. All right.

EPA Administrator Scott Pruitt postponing a trip to Israel amid controversy over expensive flights he has taken at U.S. taxpayers' expense. The Washington Post says Pruitt would have stayed at a five star hotel in Jerusalem had he arrive as scheduled for a visit build as a chance for him to see Israel's unique environmental challenges.

Pruitt has pushed back against accusations of improper spending citing security reasons for flying first or business class.

Secretary of State Rex Tillerson says the latest sanctions against North Korea are working and that Pyongyang will have to make the next move if it wants to talk peace. He also 60 Minutes, quote, we're not using a carrot to convince them to talk, we're using large sticks. And the secretary of state had this to say when asked about comments the president has made that appear to undercut his mission.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REX TILLERSON, SECRETARY OF STATE: The president communicates in his own style, his own way, his own words. And from time to time I will ask him, are you changing the policy? Because if we are, obviously I need to know and everyone needs to know.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, you would have thought he would talk to you about changing the policy before he tweeted.

TILLERSON: And to finish the thought, that has never happened. Every time I talk to him, he says, no, the policy hasn't changed, and I said, I'm good. That's all I need to know.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: So, Toluse, he's taking a victory lap because the policy wasn't changed on Twitter, unbeknownst to him. When you would think what might bother him the most, is the concern that the policy was change on Twitter unbeknownst to him.

[12:40:07] TOLUSE OLORUNNIPA, WHITE HOUSE REPORTER, BLOOMBERG: Right. It must be nice of the secretary of state to have a direct line to the president. But think about all the heads of states and other countries who are seeing these tweets and wondering as the U.S. is changing its policy.

Are we, you know, closer to war with North Korea? Are we on the brink of some other international crisis? And not everyone has that direct line to the president to really figure out in a moment's notice sort of, are we changing the policy?

So, it's clear from that interview that the secretary of state is often finding out about where we are on foreign policy after the world finds out via Twitter. And that's usually not the way that a secretary of state wants to foreign policy ...

BERMAN: He's admitting he doesn't know. He's admitting he doesn't know whether the president is changing policy on Twitter. And then he's expressing relief to find out after the fact or satisfaction.

MARTIN: Almost like a victory lap, actually.

BERMAN: Yes. It wasn't changed without me. I just find that weird.

HAM: This is a terrible, terrible way of doing business.

BERMAN: This isn't the way it's supposed to be?

HAM: It's just, professionalize it, man. They're not going to do that, I understand, that's not how this president works. We're all playing a new game now, learning new rules.

But particularly on foreign policy, make the policy before you tweet the policy, brief everybody on the policy. There is merit in doing things well and right. And the way that, yes, the swamp has done them in the past which involves these kind of processes.

BERMAN: If the swamp includes the secretary of state and the president being on the same page on foreign policy, it's not the worst of the swamp.

Interesting also on this interview and we don't have time to play, Caitlin. The secretary of state was asked repeatedly about the comments he made last summer where he called the president a moron. He was asked to deny whether or not he said it, and he wouldn't.

He said, oh, that's been asked and answered, I'm not going to dignify that question with a response. It was sort of fascinating.

HUEY-BURNS: It was so fascinating for exactly what he didn't say or wouldn't say or didn't want to, intentionally didn't want to engage. And we've seen him kind of dismiss that before.

I think to the point that we are all talking about this, you know, this not communication between the secretary of state and the White House comes against the backdrop of, you know, continued questions about Rex Tillerson's own future.

When you have -- you know, for several months questions about whether your secretary of state is going to continue on in this role, those questions still persisting. It was clear he -- you know, we all know that he doesn't do these kinds of interviews. This was a different kind of thing, and it was as if he wanted to assert himself in some way a year into this tenure while questions still remain about the status of his tenure.

BERMAN: He's there 13 months now and going, outlasting what a lot of people thought would happen.

Up next, dozens of staffers in the White House operate with only interim security clearances, but that is about to change this week. Could it threaten the standing and the president's son-in-law, Jared Kushner?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[12:46:57] BERMAN: New security clearance procedures go into effect at the White House this week. The chief of staff John Kelly is overhauling the process in the wake of the Rob Porter scandal. And amid reports that dozens of staffers are operating without long term clearances.

Will the new protocol threaten the standing of Jared Kushner, the president's senior adviser, and maybe more importantly, his son-in- law? Not so, says a White House official saying, quote, it's not aimed at Jared but to fix a broken system.

Let's discuss right now. Jonathan martin, obviously, look, the president can give anybody clearance he wants to give clearance to right now. They say it isn't directed at Jared Kushner but he seems to be the one most directly at issue here. The senior adviser of the president with the biggest portfolio dealing with classified issues that doesn't have top level clearance.

MARTIN: He apparently is running in the Middle East peace process which does, in my experience, John, typically involved with sensitive issues related to national security. And you don't have a security clearance, that strikes me as difficult to kind of do that job.

But again, it sort of speaks to this, you know, issue about the unconventional to put it, certainly White House, where we're a year- plus in now, and one of the top people there does not have a security clearance and keeps amending his financial disclosures over and over and over again, and has lawyered up because he may have some kind of jeopardy we don't know with the special counsel.

And this is the kind of world that we're in. So I had to say, to be totally blunt with you, John, the fact that he has not yet gotten a clearance does not shock me.

BERMAN: There was a call from Abbe Lowell, his sort of special counsel lawyer on this subject, I'm like, wow, that's a strange intersection.

MARTIN: Who's a high-powered attorney. This is not a guy who's doing DUI cases. Not at all, so.

BERMAN: John Kelly, do we feel like he's out of the woods now, the chief of staff, after being on the rocks last week over the Rob Porter mess? Is this the way to move past it?

HAM: I mean, he's going to try. I think perhaps the news cycle changed in a significant way.

But, look, the problem with the Rob Porter story was not the FBI's part where they flagged these things, it was the White House's dealing with the flagging. So in the case of Jared Kushner, the issue is not the FBI is not giving him, it's how the White House deals with that.

And as you said, the president can make this choice, but I do think it's a problem for them because it is going to center on Jared if you're truly going to fix that process.

BERMAN: That seems to be the big issue here. Yes, there are dozens of others involved here but he seems to be the one. So -- and I don't know if we'll get the answers. I don't know if the White House will tell us straight out if in fact he has the full clearance or he's not being privy to some of those things.

Let's go back, if we can, to talk about Russia a little bit more on the investigation. After the indictments came out on Friday, the president's national security adviser, H.R. McMaster, speaking overseas basically said what the intelligence agencies and others have been saying for a long time, yes, Russia did it. Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

H.R. MCMASTER, WHITE HOUSE NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: As you can see with the FBI indictment, the evidence is now really incontrovertible and available in the public domain.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: All right, hang on one second, guys, in the change. This is the shooter in Florida who killed 17 people last week at Parkland, Florida at the Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School.

[12:50:05] This is a court appearance he is facing right now. My understanding is this is just some procedural issues, sealing and unsealing of documents in the case. The hearing will be held before Judge Scherer on the matter right now.

We don't know much more about what to expect or if we will hear it, but that is what you are looking at right now. Are we going to stay on this for a little bit, or do you want to?

(INAUDIBLE)

BERMAN: All right, here's what we're going to do. We're going to take a quick break. We'll be right back with much more on this just ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BERMAN: All right, you're looking at live pictures right now from a courtroom in Fort Lauderdale, Florida. That right there is the shooter from the Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School who killed 17 of his classmates and faculty members at that high school last week.

This hearing is to seal and unseal documents in procedural matters. We're keeping our eye on it.

[12:55:03] Look, it's hard to see this person sitting right there, and we don't want to dwell on it too much, but there could be developments in this proceeding, which is why we're watching it very, very closely.

We will bring you the legal goings-on when they begin. In the meantime my panel is still here with me. Toluse, you know, again, as we're watching this right now we are engaged in this national discussion about what happened, why it happened and to keep it from happening again. And we're stuck by the images right of evil in a way that's what hands over it all.

OLORUNNIPA: And we will continue to see these images unlike previous past shootings where the shooter died in the -- during the event in Las Vegas in previous shootings in Texas where the shooter was killed right there on the scene. In this case we have the shooter who survived the event and it's going to go court proceedings and that's going to eventually keep this in the conversations. This going to keep people talking about, you know, does he deserve the death penalty.

And also about whatever policy need to change in order to stop this from happening. We may at some point hear from him about motives, about whatever mental health issues he might be going through, and that might allow for that conversation that a lot of the students of the school want to continue. It'll help that not to get just sort of lost in the rush of news that we have in our current day news cycle. We will be seeing these images for week, if not months, to come.

BERMAN: And Caitlin, I'm struck by the other image. We saw this very same hour outside the White House where we saw students in the Washington, D.C. area with lie-in and lying down in front of the White House. They try to engage in action with the administration in the government to change what they see as gun laws that are not protecting them.

HUEY-BURNS: Right, exactly. And also that planning that March event, march on Washington, so to speak, next month. you know, we have seen out of these instances, especially with Sandy Hook, you have really compelling figures come out of this to try to affect change. But with the Sandy Hook families, they remember covering the 2013 version of that background check bill. They would lobby members of congress, go to their offices, have these really, you know, heartfelt conversations and still there wasn't the support in the senate at that time for a background check bill despite the efforts of these really compelling figures.

So we'll see if this is different. I mean I think you bring up a great point that this case will offer a lot of different data points that weren't available in others.

BERMAN: And Mary Catherine Ham, you brought up fascinating points when we went to commercial before, for these students who are asking for the government, demanding change from the government right now. You know, they may be setting themselves. They're injecting themselves in the middle of something right now and they might not be fully aware of the ultimate consequences.

HAM: Right. I mean they have agency, they have, you know, moral authority, they have righteous anger with so many good reason. They are also minors who have just gone through an incredibly traumatic experience, and as somebody who has actually experience a bit of personal trauma in the public eye, it is a very tricky thing, and something they -- many of them have not experience before and I hope that their -- I imagine their parents, teachers and activists who are working with them are cognizant of that and I hope they have mental health professionals surrounding them while they go through this, so they actually deal with that.

Another thing I think many who support them and/or as we all are move by these stories will think there is absolutely no political downside to some of the things they're asking for their younger idealistic they're like we're going to do this. But there will be talk of bans. There will be this -- It will not be all targeted, narrow solutions, and though that will come with a bunch of moral authority, in the political realm does that play as well, Democrats and many who have to deal with these red states where Trump won might find that that's not the case.

BERMAN: No. There's any very great point. I hope they all find time to grieve. I want them to take the time they need to get through this, over they can. Maybe one of the ways of grieving for them is activism.

HAM: Yes. And I think also sort of in the -- the fact he was taken alive, which is strange, I hope offers some closure to families as well.

BERMAN: And again, we are watching this right now, this hearing in Fort Lauderdale for the shooter down there. Jonathan.

MARTIN: Just one final point exactly what you were saying which is the fact that the survivor it's hard the killer did survive this shooting and is going to be in the court system at least through this calendar year. Keep in mind the implications that could have politically this fall in Florida where you've got a top flight governor's race, and if Rick Scott runs for the Senate, it's Bill Nelson potentially a major senate race in addition to at least three competitive house races down are too.

This is always a battle ground done politically. It could be very much elevated this fall against the backdrop of the Puerto Rico hurricane which brought thousands of folks to the mainland. The president's comments about Haitians which have really stirred the Haitian community and I think that the gun issue in all sorts railing, (inaudible) is going to be for really let this fall.

BERMAN: All right. And again for the people in Parkland, Florida they're also simply grieving and have to work through this as best they can. Guys thanks so much for being with us. You're looking at live pictures right now from this court hearing in Fort Lauderdale, Florida right now. That's right there the killer from that high school in Parkland.

Wolf Blitzer picks up our coverage right now.