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Mueller Indicts 12 Russian Military Intel Officers for DNC Hacking. Aired 12:30-1p ET

Aired July 13, 2018 - 12:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[12:30:00] WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: -- your analysis.

MICHAEL ZELDIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, it's part two of what was part one, the social media campaign. We saw in that indictment Mueller saying that the Russians, through the Internet Research Agency, interfered with the election. We were all waiting to see whether or not the hacking was also going to be charged as a crime.

So now we've seen part two. That's the hacking. So now we've seen the total picture of what the Russian organization did with respect to the American election. What we haven't seen is whether or not there was any knowing participation by Americans in those efforts. We know as to both indictments there was unknowing, unwitting participation by Americans so far.

Whether or not that remains to be the case is what Mueller, I think, is still going to look at. And what's interesting to me as well is that this case, as well as the Internet Research Agency, are essentially being transferred out of Mueller's team into the national security division of the Department of Justice, which means it's going to be a longer, broader investigation that they will take over. Mueller handed them step one of this in IRA. Step two in hacking, and now I think DOJ is going to take this and run with it and Mueller will focus on whether any Americans were knowingly involved in this participation.

DANA BASH, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: And that's the key. That's collusion. That's -- that is really -- I mean, this is a huge deal, you know, what we see today. And that actually speaks to the question of what the president is going to do with Putin. But first, the whole question is Americans.

He's laid out -- he, Robert Mueller, and Rosenstein have laid out what the Russians have done, and they aren't charging any Americans today, but it doesn't mean that they won't be charged in the future. And that's really important. But just to your point about the timing, the president has said, I'm going to ask him, Vladimir Putin. I don't know if he's going to say anything.

I mean, what Rod Rosenstein, his own deputy attorney general, was effectively saying is, that's not good enough. And that's what we've heard from Republicans and Democrats. You can't just say, please don't do it. This is a major, major diplomatic breach. This is a major crime perpetuated by the man that the president is going to go and meet with. So to just say, did you hack? No. OK -- or did you meddle? No. OK, well, if you did, don't do it again.

No. I mean, this is a very detailed account of 12 members of Vladimir Putin's very own government, proof according to his own Justice Department, that they went in a very strategic way into the American political system, into key political committees, and that is something that should be and would be under any other administration until Trump a diplomatic explosion.

JAKE TAPPER, CNN CHIEF WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: And not just members of Putin's government. There is no way an operation like this run by 12 members of Russian military intelligence to interfere --

BASH: Well, that's what I mean. It was him.

TAPPER: -- without Putin knowing about it and approving of it.

BASH: No question.

TAPPER: It's not just government. It's an operation he had to know about.

SHIMON PROKUPECZ, CNN CRIME AND JUSTICE REPORTER: The indictment, the names of these individuals on according to the indictment, this is a commander, a major. There are some military officers. There's a senior lieutenant, a lieutenant colonel, a lieutenant captain, there's a colonel. These are senior level people of the military intelligence, this GRU. We've hear of the GRU --

BLITZER: This is the successor of the KGB, and Putin was once in the KGB.

BASH: Of course.

PROKUPECZ: Look -- and there's two different units here. One of these units was running the malware according to the -- they have -- the government here -- our government here has the names of this malware, ex-agent, ex-tunnel. So it's clear that we have very good capabilities that the FBI and our intelligence folks have been looking at this for quite some time because some of this is even in the intelligence report.

So this is not new. It's just a question of whether or not they had enough and were ready at a point to bring charges. It is a significant, significant move by the Department of Justice, by the National Security Division to bring these kinds of charges for many reasons. And certainly when you are charging senior-level people of the Russian Government, that is a massive, massive move.

DAVID CHALIAN, CNN POLITICAL DIRECTOR: This is a game changer from Monday. It is. I mean, I understand we had the IRA indictment and so there's been a fact pattern here. But this happening just days before -- Jake, you earlier brought up what President Trump said this morning in the press conference about no Perry Mason moment do I expect. It's not like Putin's all going -- sudden say, gee, I did it, and come forth.

But it's not just a diplomatic breach. This is clear evidence, sufficient evidence for the United States Government, to bring to a judge here that this is an attack on our country. It's not just a break in protocol. This is an actual attack on the American electoral system.

And I thought hearing Rosenstein say that state boards of election, secretaries of state, software companies that create election software were all infiltrated. Now, I understand that he said there's no proof that a vote was changed.

[12:35:02] But it seems to me that that is going to be a bigger avenue perhaps than it has been to explore. If they've been infiltrated, how do we connect the dots to know that not a single vote was changed? That's going to be one question.

And I will just say also that, as you -- I've been saying, yes, we wait to see if Americans are involved. But we should underline and note that as no doubt the president will. Rosenstein was crystal clear to state no evidence here today is being presented that any American knew they were communicating with Russians. No evidence here today was that Americans had knowledge of any kind of involvement with this.

And that is key. We -- to this point in this entire investigation, that has not yet come forward which has been the crux of this.

BASH: And then the question is how do you as the president of the United States sit down with a man who your own Justice Department says launched a cyber attack against what is the most fundamental part of American democracy, which is the vote. How do you do that?

I mean, how does he sit down with Vladimir Putin? Unless he takes this and brings it to him. You know, you're right. It's cyber war.

PROKUPECZ: How does Putin deny it, right? I mean, we know --

BLITZER: It has the names of 12 Russian military intelligence officers. They have been charged in this indictment. I assume all of them are in Russia. They're not going to be coming here to the United States. They'll probably never come to the United States.

Jeff Zeleny is in the U.K. for use with the president right now. Any reaction? Yet, we're getting this on the eve of the important summit with Putin? All of a sudden, Russians have been indicted by a grand jury here in Washington.

JEFF ZELENY, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, no reaction yet from the White House of this but certainly something that the White House is watching. There's no question about this. The president was briefed earlier in the week. He left on Tuesday to come to his European trip here so certainly this is something that he knew about.

And more interestingly, Wolf, as David Chalian was just saying, the president said this morning there will be no Perry Mason moment. You know, he said he's not going to admit, gee, I did it. He already knew about these indictments at the time. We did not know about them, of course. But that adds to the context of that, even more interesting, of course.

So it certainly raises the stakes and adds even a different element to that meeting on Monday. But the White House we know, this is happening as the president is meeting with the queen. He is having his tea now at Windsor Castle with Queen Elizabeth. And then he'll be heading to his golf resort in Scotland over the weekend.

We did see an interesting moment earlier this afternoon here, Wolf. And this was Sarah Sanders went up to the president and was telling him something. We don't know what. It was shortly before he arrived at Windsor Castle. She seemed to be briefing him on something.

He clearly is following the news very carefully here, including those hearings yesterday. So we will wait and bring any reaction from the White House as soon as we get it for you, Wolf. He'll be on the ground here at Windsor Castle for a while and then heading to Scotland and then preparing for a Putin summit, which is even more important now, Wolf.

BLITZER: It certainly is. You know, Jake, the president at that news conference earlier in the day today with the British Prime Minister Theresa May, he was sort of belittling the entire Russia probe, once again calling it a witch hunt, saying it undermines what he hopes to be a good opportunity to befriend Putin when they meet on Monday and have some serious diplomatic achievements.

TAPPER: That's right which has been his m.o. from the very beginning, to talk about how there's no there there, suggesting during a presidential debate that he didn't know that the Russians were responsible for the hacking. It might have been some 400-pound guy in his living room, I believe he said.

Also, you know, we should note first of all that the fact that he did not bring an indictment against any Americans today, I wonder what the significance of that is. First of all, does it mean that they're not going to bring any indictments against any Americans, or does it just mean in this particular indictment, all they have is against the Russians and they are going to continue to explore what Americans knew?

That said, when you think about the fact that there has been this narrative created by the president that this whole theory, that the Russians interfered in the presidential election, that the Russians hacked the DNC servers and Hillary Clinton campaign staffer servers or spearphished them or whatever they did, which by the way a great number of Republicans have been suggesting that there's no evidence that happened, that the Russians weren't responsible for it. Because of Robert Mueller, we now know that it's true.

So however much people want to focus on Peter Strzok and Lisa Page at the FBI and their text messages, the bottom line is, according to Robert Mueller, with evidence of individuals, we know that the Russians did, according to this indictment, hack and get e-mails that damaged Hillary Clinton. And according to this indictment, released them through a third party, unnamed in the indictment, although we know it to be WikiLeaks as well as DCLeaks and Guccifer 2.0, that those were released to damage Hillary Clinton.

[12:40:12] And there was discussion about when they would be released. So we know that to be the case. There's also evidence in this indictment that somebody who had a relationship with senior members of the Trump campaign was in contact with Guccifer 2.0, which we know now to be actually not just one hacker but the Russian former foreign military intelligence.

So these are the facts as presented by Robert Mueller and the Justice Department. These are the assertions that they are making. There was election interference. They don't know if it affected the count, but all the theories, the crazy things from the fever swamps about the deep state, the crazy things about Seth Rich, none of that's true.

I want to go now on the phone to Jeff Toobin to get his reaction to this indictment. Jeff?

JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN CHIEF LEGAL ANALYST: Well, the first thing to recognize, I think, is that as a legal matter, this indictment is probably all we are going to learn about this side of the case because these defendants are in Russia. And we don't have an extradition treaty that would cover this kind of behavior, so there is unlikely ever to be any sort of trial.

Obviously the great unanswered question is, were there Americans who were involved in this activity in any way that indicates the collusion with the Trump administration -- the Trump campaign. If you read the indictment carefully, it's clear that organization one is WikiLeaks. And it is somewhat surprising that WikiLeaks was not indicted. There's also a reference to a person in touch with the Trump campaign, and that certainly fits the description of Roger Stone.

I think both WikiLeaks and Roger Stone will be relieved to know that they were not indicted today, but I don't think they are necessarily out of the woods. The extent of this is really extraordinary. I mean, the extent of the Russian effort to help Donald Trump win the election is extraordinary, but what remains a mystery and unresolved by this indictment is whether there was any participation or even knowledge of the Trump campaign that this effort was taking place.

TAPPER: Jeff, one of the things we know is we know that while the Russians had this information and the Russians hacked the DNC and phished and got information from John Podesta, Hillary Clinton's campaign chair, there were attempts at outreach to the Trump campaign by the Russian Government. There was the professor with Kremlin ties who reached out to George Papadopoulos who was a Trump campaign adviser. There was that individual who reached out to Donald Trump Jr. and said the Russian Government has damaging information dirt on Hillary Clinton, and Donald Trump Jr. said if it's what you say, I love it.

Given that information, as well as the time during the 2016 campaign when Donald Trump said Russia, if you're listening, I hope you're able to find the 30,000 e-mails that are missing, the Hillary Clinton bite. Actually, I think we have that sound bite. I'd like to play that if we can. Here's Donald Trump in 2016 asking Russia to release e-mails.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE United States: Russia, if you're listening, I hope you're able to find the 30,000 e-mails that are missing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: That's in July 2016. That is during the Democratic National Convention. Given all of that swirl, do you really think, Jeffrey Toobin, that this is the last we're going to hear when it comes to the role that any Americans might have played when it comes to talking to these individuals?

TOOBIN: The answer to that, I'm afraid, Jake, is a ringing I don't know. Because this indictment does not disclose any connections to the Trump campaign that were not known previously. I mean, Roger stone has acknowledged that he was in touch with someone he thought was Guccifer, but he had no knowledge that any illegal activity was going on. Certainly, WikiLeaks has acknowledged that they released the e-mails.

There's another reference in the indictment which was news to me about a contact between Russians and some American journalists. That I had not been familiar with, and it will be interesting to tease out who that might be and what went on there.

But, you know, it is certainly accurate to say, as your question implies, that there is a tremendous amount of smoke indicating that there was some sort of Trump campaign knowledge or involvement with this.

[12:45:15] But criminal cases are not built on smoke, they're built on fire. And certainly, in this indictment, there is no even allegation, much less proof, that the Trump campaign was involved in this hacking activity.

ZELDIN: If you look at the indictment paragraphs 43 and 44, I think, are what we're talking about here, which is the description by the prosecutors of the individuals who had communication with Guccifer and DCLeaks. They are reporters, they are state registered lobbyists. They're an online political news source. They're individuals connected with the Trump campaign.

It is this that becomes the follow-on work of the prosecutors to determine whether or not this was an innocent receipt of information, unknowing that it was stolen or whether or not the prosecutors can say, you should have had knowledge, you were willfully blind, and therefore you're legally chargeable as an accessory.

BLITZER: A major development today in the Robert Mueller investigation, the Russia investigation. We're going to have much more on the breaking news right after this quick break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[12:50:43] BLITZER: We're following the breaking news. A federal grand jury here in Washington, D.C. has just indicted 12 senior Russian military officers in connection with hacking allegations against the Democrats during the presidential campaign.

I quickly want to go to CNN's Matthew Chance. He's in Helsinki, Finland. That's where the meeting is scheduled for Monday between the president of the United States and the president of Russia right now.

So Matthew, normally the Russians retaliate pretty quickly in the aftermath of something along these lines. What do we anticipate?

MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, I've just been looking at my cell phone as you speak to me there, looking for reaction from the Kremlin. I've been asking about what their response is. They haven't got back to me yet, but I can almost predict what they will say because I've asked them so many times in the past couple of years about these allegations that have been presented about election hacking. They always say the same thing, which is they categorically deny it.

In fact, they used the same language as Donald Trump uses, President Trump of the United States, that it's a witch hunt, that it's politically motivated, designed to undermine the credibility of the U.S. president, and to undermine Russia on the international stage. And so that's what I expect will be the reaction this time.

In terms of what impact this will have on the summit which is scheduled to start here in the Finish capital of Helsinki, in a few days from now, well, under normal circumstances, these kinds of revelations, this kind of evidence that has been presented would be enough to potentially derail a summit between the U.S. and the Russian president. But as you know very well, these are not normal circumstances.

And I don't think for a second this is going to prevent the White House or President Trump from coming here to Helsinki and having that great meeting with President Putin. It's certainly not going to stop the Russians from coming here and appearing on the world stage with the leader of the United States. And so I think the impact of this locally here for this summit is going to be pretty limited, Wolf.

BLITZER: Matthew, stand by. You know, Jake, it does bring a whole new element to this summit with Putin.

TAPPER: It brings a whole new element to the summit with Putin, provoking questions about whether or not President Trump is going to use this indictment as evidence and present it to Vladimir Putin, and demand that he take action, demand that he admit what happened.

And also, it also creates a whole new fact pattern frankly for Republicans in Congress, many of whom have been denying what has been long suspected and now we have evidence of, that the Russians interfered in the 2016 presidential election. A lot of people have been calling it fake news. A lot of people, because President Trump is sensitive about the idea that some people might think that he didn't win legitimately, has been besmirching this entire investigation.

There's something that Rod Rosenstein, the deputy attorney general who announced these indictments said during the press conference today that I would like to play and get reaction to. It (INAUDIBLE) to the people in the control room. It's where he's talking about and he's implicitly discussing how the American people -- and you can't help but feel he's also talking to his fellow Republicans in Washington, D.C., especially and including President Trump, as well as those on Capitol Hill, how everyone should take this information.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ROD ROSENSTEIN, DEPUTY ATTORNEY GENERAL: We confront foreign interference in American elections. It's important for us to avoid thinking politically as Republicans or Democrats and instead to think patriotically as Americans.

Our response must not depend on which side was victimized. The blame for election interference belongs to the criminals who committed election interference. We need to work together to hold the perpetrators accountable.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: We need to work together to hold the perpetrators accountable. Your response should not depend on the party of those who were victimized. I wonder if that is going to resonate at all on Capitol Hill Dana Bash?

BASH: It already has. I mean, the reason we have seen any bit of aggressive move which we have. I mean, remember, the United States Congress in a very broad bipartisan vote forced the president's hand just to put some sanctions on Russia, and it was only because of the message we heard from Rod Rosenstein. We need to defend America regardless of party nd that's what we've heard from Republicans.

[12:55:02] The other thing I want to say is that, it was this week that the president a couple of times refused to call Putin a foe. He said he's a competitor. The vice president said to me he's an adversary.

Really? This guy waged cyber war on America. That sounds like a foe.

TAPPER: Now, here's an indictment. It says, he's a foe.

BLITZER: The United States of America and that it names 12 senior Russian military officers by name.

Everybody stick around. There's much more of our special coverage. We will continue after a quick break.

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