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Giuliani: BuzzFeed Story "Categorically False"; Sources: Biden Strongly Leaning Toward 2020 Run; Vice-President's Wife Karen Pence To Teach At Anti-LGBT School. Aired 12:30-1pm ET

Aired January 18, 2019 - 12:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[12:30:01] REP. NANCY PELOSI (D), HOUSE SPEAKER: We weren't going to go because we had a report from Afghanistan that the president, outing our trip, had made the scene on the ground much more dangerous, because it's just a signal to the bad actors that we're coming -- never, we never advance -- we never give advance notice of going into a battle area. You just never do. Perhaps the President's inexperience --

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JOHN KING, CNN ANCHOR: Republican Congressman Adam Kinzinger of Illinois among the more moderate voices in Congress saying, "Hey, it's time for both sides to give and cut an old-fashioned compromise".

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REP. ADAM KINZINGER (R), ILLINOIS: This is all petty. I want all of this to go away. I want all of us to just figure out how we can get to an agreement. You're going to -- it's going to be a win-win or a lose-lose. I don't care what you call it. But, neither side is going to have a total loss and it's time that we actually act like adults like the American people expect us to.

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KING: Should we start a countdown clock for when they're going to start acting like adults, or would that be a wasted effort?

JULIE PACE, WASHINGTON BUREAU CHIEF, ASSOCIATED PRESS: At this point, it seems like a bit wasted effort. I mean, we're in this moment right now where there's nothing happening on the actual negotiating front in terms of resolving the shutdown. So all you see is this tit-for-tat, Pelosi and Trump trying to get the upper hand here.

I think what is really interesting to watch though is that Trump is now in a situation where he has an adversary who has real power. And he was in negotiations with Schumer and Pelosi previously, but both of them were minority leaders. Now Pelosi is the speaker. She has leverage she can pull.

You could argue whether her saying he should give the state of the union was the right move or not, but she does have things at her disposal and Trump is having to try to figure out in real time how to grapple with that and that has put him, I think on a bit of a defensive position here.

KING: And from the humanity standpoint you would say everybody should want to get in the room and figure this out. But for a political standpoint, there is no impetus, right? You write about this in your column and you say especially that the Democrats feel they have a strong position.

I'll start with this, you know, when asked who they trusted more on border security, Democrats and Congress were ahead of Trump by five points. In other words, not only is Trump losing the argument on wall and the shutdown, but he's also losing on the issue of safety and security. That's losing the battle and losing the war.

And so, if you're Nancy Pelosi, you don't see the need to blink first.

AMY WALTER, NATIONAL EDITOR, COOK POLITICAL REPORT: And blink -- because that's always been the concern for many Democrats and the hope among many Republicans is, once we get onto this issue of just broadly security, Democrats will splinter, right, because you'll going to have the -- let's get rid the vice people and the sanctuary city people competing with the more moderate suburban Democrats who are worried that this can be use against them to be paint them as too extremist on the issue of security.

But now, here we are a month into this. The President's numbers have dropped. The support for the wall hasn't gone anywhere. Democrats are more united in their opposition to the wall than Republicans are united at least among polls are showing among regular voters. United against -- Democrats are more united against the wall than Republicans are united in support of it.

And now this, if you're losing on border security, which is the one thing that Republicans would argued that's what we got. Maybe we don't have the wall but they trust us more on security at large, now you have zero leverage in this process.

KING: I want to shift stop the conversation. Forgive me. But we have some breaking news.

Finally, a statement in from Rudy Giuliani who is the President's lead counsel on this BuzzFeed report that Michael Cohen was ordered by the President, directed by the President, to lie to Congress, "Any suggestion from my source that the President counseled Michael Cohen to lie is categorically false. Michael Cohen is a convicted criminal and a liar. To quote the prosecutors, he has traded on a pattern of lies and dishonesty over an extended period of time, and for that he is going to pay a very, very serious price".

This is Rudy Giuliani, again, "Today's claims are just more made-up lies born of Michael Cohen's malice and desperation, in an effort to reduce his sentence".

So let's bring that back in other room. It is, it is at least a direct response saying the President did not trip more than 12 hours after the BuzzFeed report hit to get it. But it is important and significant because that's what I was asking the lawyers here earlier, was there any legal reason not to say so. Politically, of course, you would like this if this didn't happen in the president. Yes, this didn't happen.

Rudy Giuliani now in the record. He takes out of context those quotes about Michael Cohen. The prosecutors did say that Michael Cohen is a bad actor and then Michael Cohen has done a lot of bad things. In the context of the Russia investigation, the Special Counsel Office's said essentially once they had him his testimony -- they've been able to back up and corroborate his testimony about the Russia investigation. The Southern District of New York, a lot of questions about other personal financial stuff and things like that.

But what is the significance of the White House that Rudy Giuliani going on the record saying, "categorically false"?

OLIVIER KNOX, CHIEF WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT, SIRIUSXM: You know what I'm going to say, right? This is Rudy Giuliani has a thing reporting. He's contradictory constantly. He says, I never said that -- I never denied that there was some possible. I mean he just -- he may turn around and say the opposite in 20 minutes. I don't think this is -- it's not that significant to have him come on the record except for the fact that we hadn't had it from other sources in the Trump team.

You know, other folks saying, attacking BuzzFeed rather than denying the content of the BuzzFeed report. So in that sense it's a little bit.

[12:35:04] KING: And does it not, I get your point. Rudy Giuliani, like Michael Cohen, has not been a credible witness, if you will. There's been a lot of things he's said he changed his story then look at you in the face and said, "I'm denying changing story when you can and play the tape of him saying exactly what he's denying he ever said.

KNOX: Yes.

KING: But now that he has put up the statement at a minimum doesn't not give at least Republicans a place to hide on Capitol Hill saying, look, the President's lawyer has denied this. You know, never mind -- let's get --let's wait for Mueller or let's until I see the facts, boom.

PACE: It does, I think it does make it more imperative if Democrats are going to try to use this to launch a new investigation, to open up a new start in the investigation. It does make it more imperative that they get some hard evidence to back that up.

Essentially, we have a report from BuzzFeed which has done some really good work on the Trump Tower part of this investigation. But a BuzzFeed report that's based on two anonymous officials and a denial from Rudy Giuliani. That's where we are right now. There's a lot of space in between to try to bridge the gap between the report and his denial. KAROUN DEMIRJIAN, CONGRESSIONAL REPORTER, WASHINGTON POST: And that's basically what they're going to be trying to do and trying to, you know, replicate the report in the BuzzFeed did or find other sources to corroborate or find that they don't exist.

And at the same time to kind of piggyback off what Olivier was saying, I think it's significant that it's the President's lawyer and not the President saying this as well. You know, Trump is not getting out there himself and saying something that maybe disproving if the story is true and those corroborating documents exist.

KING: And Giuliani has operated more as the public relations lawyer to TV lawyer. He's not doing the bones, nuts and bolts work, if you will, of responding to Mueller (INAUDIBLE). But it's a public statement which the White House now on the record saying it's false, categorically false. We'll continue to report the story as we go forward.

Up next for us, Vice President Mike Pence makes a surprise appearance at the March for Life rally happening right now here in Washington, D.C.

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[12:41:17] KING: Topping our political radar today, big international news. The White House says President Trump is meeting with North Korea's top nuclear negotiator -- excuse me, in the Oval Office this hour. Former Spy Chief Kim Yong Chol met with Secretary State Mike Pompeo last hour. He apparently came to the United States with a letter to Trump from North Korean leader Kim Jong-un. A second summit said to be among the matters being discussed.

Right now thousands of anti-abortion activist gather at the National Mall here in Washington for the 46th Annual March for Life. President Trump sent the message of support by video. And the Vice President Mike Pence speaking at the rally just a short time ago, talking about the President's moves for conservative judges on the Federal bench.

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MIKE PENCE, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: In the last two years, President Trump kept his promise and he appointed more conservative men and women to our Federal Courts of Appeals than any president in American history.

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KING: And some Democrats getting in, but this Democrat getting out of the running come 2020.

Pennsylvania Senator Bob Casey, after months of consideration, announced today he will not seek his party's presidential nomination. Casey won reelection last year by 13 percentage points and said today the best place for him to serve is by staying in the Senate.

Up next, more on 2020 and this big question, Joe Biden, is he in or out?

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[12:46:49] KING: To 2020 and the Democrats now and some brand new CNN reporting on Joe Biden's deliberation. CNN spoke to more than two dozen aides and supporters of the former vice president. They detail family concerns, Biden's painful memories of his two failed presidential runs and his assessment of the 2020 race. Strongly leading in is the big takeaway.

One Democratic source close to Biden telling CNN, "He's thinking is centered around one thought. There has to be a new president. That's what his campaign would be about".

CNN's Jeff Zeleny, a big part of that reporting and he joins the conversation. You read it, you get the impression everybody around him and his instinct is this is for me, but --

JEFF ZELENY, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Always a but with Joe Biden, we know we know this. We know he wants to be president. That has been true for a very long time.

We know that his team is in place should he make that decision. But we are told talking to a variety of people he has not yet made that decision. But his aides and operatives are talking to people in Iowa, in New Hampshire and South Carolina to get something ready should he decide to run.

But again, as we think through this, we also have to ask the question can he win the big one on his own? Obviously, his two previous presidential campaigns on his own, not with Barack Obama, didn't go very well. So he knows, and his advisers know that he would have to create a different more modern type of campaign structure, campaign message.

But everyone we're talking to says again he's leading in that direction but they all offer a word of caution, not quite sure. One person said at 70-30, that 30 is very real. One thing he has not done had a meeting with Barack Obama yet. He's not sat down until they had a conversation with him.

One would assume that they would have that chat. It could be complicated for both of them because President Obama does not plan to get in the race. What happens if his former vice president asks him to endorse? That's a tough answer.

KING: And so the question is, especially knowing that you lost twice and you're trying to make the case that you were the best qualified and you lost twice.

ZELENY: Right.

KING: Is the winner is the person who can control the debate. What is this about?

ZELENY: Right. KING: To convince Democrats, there's a lot of us before you pick who, what? What is this race about? If he can make it about we need a new president, he can -- you could understand he could stay and then say, I'm the guy who knows how to be president. I'm the closest. I've been there. I was vice president for eight years, you like me.

But, is it about we want someone new? Is it about we want somebody more oppressive (ph). So I ask -- I raise that in the context of this, is this a blessing or a curse? This is from the new NPR/Marist poll. Favorability among Democrats, Democratic leading independent, Beto versus Biden -- Biden blows him away.

Among white, no quality education, Trumps voters if you will. Potential Trumps voters -- Biden blows him away. Even among younger people, Biden blows Beto away.

So Biden, you know me? Or, is that a blessing? You know me. You like me. Or, is that a curse? If the party looking for somebody new and like now we do know you and we like you. We just want just want a fresh face.

PACE: With Biden comes in at this stage of a primary if he does enter with a huge advantage which is simply name recognition, right? I mean, he is a different figure in the Democratic Party than he was during those other presidential runs. He much more well known, he is much more beloved, he has more of a record from his time as vice president.

So that's an advantage that he would have that nobody else has.

But Biden also has some of those same flaws that he has always had and the biggest one this time around is that he is not new. He is someone who's been on the stage for a long time and the energy of the Democratic Party right now is with young voters. It is with women. It is with minorities. What is his story to tell those voters? And how would he represent them in this Democratic Party.

[12:50:08] WALTER: I think the number one thing Democratic voters are looking for right now is who can be Donald Trump, period.

KING: Right.

They don't care what package it comes in. If you can prove to us over the course of this primary campaign that you are the one, that has the best path forward, fantastic. And I think so much of the other stuff, are you new? Are you old? What are your past positions? How are you going to make up for the fact?

Listen, Joe Biden is not the only one who has to answer for a long track record that's not in keeping with the current -- where the Democratic Party is now in terms of the liberal views of so many issues.

KING: And to that point what has been striking about this, the early weeks of this is that so many of the Democrats getting in have to begin with, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. WALTER: Yes.

KING: Senator Gillibrand, previous positions on guns and immigration where she was representing a House district, very conservative sets the base now. She says flatly, "I was wrong".

Kamala Harris, she was Attorney General of California. So position are criminal justice before in law and order then as viewed more tough than where the base of the party is right now.

Tulsi Gabbard's statement essentially harshly critical of gay Americans and organizations representing gay Americans. She said yesterday, "I'm sorry". Senator Sanders said to apologize to women who work on his last campaign, who say they suffer from a sexual harassment to Bernie.

KNOX: Yes, he's got some bad news there whether it's the, I need a hill stuff that he oversaw. Or his, you know, perfectly understandable as senator from Delaware opposition on the lot of issues affecting a credit companies and banks.

The thing that I heard last time in '16 and I'm hearing again now is Democrats saying, "Yes, right, he's super popular. He's not running". When you start running a presidential campaign, everything changes. All your rivals try to define you, all your enemies try to define you and that's a totally different impact.

So these early poll numbers don't reflect, I can beat Donald Trump as much they do. Yes, we're fond of you and are you running.

KING: And do you want that -- so you want that to be your legacy? Two terms as vice president they love me or you want to take that risk? It's a big risk that 30 percent I would say it's very real.

Up next for us, amid controversy over a new job for his wife Karen Pence the Vice President just moments ago saying, he could not be more proud of her.

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PENCE: My wife is many things. She's even an art teacher at a Christian school. And I couldn't be more proud of our second lady my wife, Karen Pence.

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[12:57:00] KING: Just before the break, we heard Vice President Mike Pence defending his wife Karen's new job which teaching art Christian school that bans gay students, parents and employees. Responding to criticisms last night, Pence told Catholic television, he's deeply offended by what he calls the media is attack on Christian education.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) PENCE: We have a rich tradition in America of Christian education and frankly religious education broadly defined. We celebrate it. It's the freedom of religion is enshrined in the constitution of the United States. We'll let the other critics roll off our back, but this criticism of Christian education in America should stop.

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Emmanuel Christian School's parent agreement says it can refuse a student if the student's parents are, "Participating in, supporting or condoning, sexual immorality". And then asked parents to, "embrace biblical family values such as a healthy marriage between one man and one woman".

It's an interesting debate. To me, Karen Pence's every rights. Her first memory belongs to the Pence's as much as it belongs to anybody. Christian school's private organizations have the right to have their views. But this decision being made as we head into a reelection campaign.

Number one, the Trump campaign has to know this is making a statement, a statement that is Christian conservative base will applaud, but a statement if you look at Trump polling and whether it's gay Americans, millennial Americans, younger Americans who are more tolerant of these issues. They don't like this in the administration. It is a statement, correct?

DEMIRJIAN: Definitely, I mean, anything that the first and the second family do is viewed by people across the country as at least a model to look up to. And this one, you know, I think there's even some people who are proponents of Christian education who would say, yes, but not this kind.

So this is -- they're making a play at a very slim subsection of the population that they count as part of their base but potentially offending a whole bunch of other people.

PACE: Pence himself and Karen Pence, I think, it's somewhat surprising coming from them. They have really been, you know, they've been backed by the evangelical community. That is who they view as their base.

This is also very personal for them. This is their core belief. When you use your core beliefs in this kind of public way, obviously it does open yourself up to criticism and I think the Pence's might be a little naive to think that wouldn't happen if she is going to make this decision. It's interesting thing that they made no attempt to get ahead of it.

They made this announcement that she was going to be working at the school and then saw the backlash coming a day or two later. KING: Does it matter that all taxpayers pay for paper housing. All taxpayers paper secret service protection CEO. It's not her fault that she needs protection in this world we live in. But all taxpayers pay for subsidize for her life. Does it matter? KNOX: So you mean, does her first amendment -- do her first amendment freedom get somehow curtailed because taxpayers pay for her accommodations and her security? I don't know a lot of people would sign on that but --

DEMIRJIAN: But she can -- other people have the first amendment of freedom to criticize and they should expect to be criticize.

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KNOX: This is criticism of the Pence's doing this. It's not actually a blanket criticism of Christian education.

KING: Everything is fair today. We live in a Democracy. Thanks for joining us in INSIDE POLITICS. Hope you have a great weekend. Hope to see you Sunday morning. Brianna Keilar starts right now.