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Sanders' Health Care Fight "A Struggle For Who We Are"; Gillibrand: It's Really Important to Admit When You're Wrong; Trump: "No Obligation" to Release Returns While Under Audit. Aired 12:30-1p ET

Aired April 10, 2019 - 12:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[12:31:00] JOHN KING, CNN ANCHOR: Senator Bernie Sanders today bringing back a new version of his healthcare proposal, Medicare for All. This is the Democratic presidential candidate just last hour unveiling an updated proposal that would put every American under a federally funded healthcare system, free of private insurance companies. It adds new provisions for long-term care and under the Sanders plan, premiums and deductibles would disappear, as would co- payments with a possible exception, the senator says if you purchase brand named drugs.

Senator Sanders' new bill already backed by four fellow senators competing with him for the Democratic presidential nomination.

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SEN. BERNIE SANDERS (D-VT), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: This is not just an idea that Kirsten or Jeff or I and few others thought of. This is a struggle for the heart and soul of who we are as American people.

SEN. KIRSTEN GILLIBRAND (D-NY), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: This has to become the next social safety net. It has to become something that is there for you no matter what.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: CNN's Ryan Nobles up on Capitol Hill. Here is one of the big questions being asked, not just by Republicans, Ryan, but Democrats as well, how does Senator Sanders plan to pay for this and how much would it cost?

RYAN NOBLES, CNN WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: Yes. And John, frankly, there's no good answer for that. And Senator Sanders at this event today which really essentially amounted to a pep rally did not take any questions so we didn't get the chance to pin him down on exactly what the dollar figure would be for this massive overhaul of the American healthcare system. But they did release a summary of this new bill. The expansions that it includes and they do have a section in that conversation where they talk about the financing of it all.

And this is how it reads, quote, there needs to be a vigorous debate as to the best way to finance our Medicare for All legislation. Unlike the Republican leadership in Congress, which held no hearings on their disastrous bill which would have thrown 32 million people off of health insurance, we will continue to get the best ideas from economists, doctors, nurses and ordinary Americans to guarantee healthcare as a fundamental right.

And this isn't really that big of a surprise, John. Sanders has spent a lot more time talking about the potential savings that the average American would enjoy if this healthcare plan were put into place. He doesn't talk a lot about costs, but some estimates of the 2017 plan put the price tag as much as $32 trillion over 10 years.

John?

KING: That's a big number. Ryan, appreciate the live reporting from the Hill.

Let's bring the conversation into the room. I don't mean to be snarky but -- so this is an idea, not a plan, right? If you have a plan, you detail how you're going to pay for it, how long of a transition, what would happen. The -- he has the idea that this he believes the best way to go, but how do you sell it if you can't -- whether you're a liberal voter, an undecided independent voter, a conservative voter, here's what it is going to cost you, here's how it's going to fix your life, here's what's going to cost the government.

OLIVIER KNOX, CHIEF WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT, SIRIUSXM: I think this is exactly how you sell it. You go out and you say I'm going to be listening to all the stakeholders, I'm going to listen to my colleagues, to doctors, to economists. Basically, it's like his fund- raising model, right? It's join me to build this thing. I think that's exactly how you do it.

You know, if people feel like they have -- they're going to have a voice in shaping this program, maybe they'll be less concerned about having, you know, this -- I don't want to call it one-size fits all but this sweeping overhaul of healthcare.

KING: I should have welcomed at the beginning before you jumped in, Laura Barron-Lopez from Politico joins the conversation. Please.

LAURA BARRON-LOPEZ, NATIONAL POLITICAL REPORTER, POLITICO: Thank you. Yes. Well, it's early stages, right? We're nine months out from the first content so Sanders is putting this marker out there right now trying to get ahead as much as he can. He's already seen the party start to shift towards him.

There's a number of progressives in the House that are on board with Medicare for All, but we also have to see how the new Democratic majority handles this stuff. They may have very different views than Sanders. We already have seen Pelosi, Rachael's reported on this, Politico's reported on this, has thrown cold water on Medicare for All. And there are number -- there's an emboldened blue dog caucus that is not for this, they want something different. So there's a lot of options on the table that Democrats can pursue.

KING: And --

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But also --

KING: -- that part of the pushback comes from the idea that if we are starting with a blank slate, a lot of Democrats would say this is the way to do it they believe. If you're starting with a blank slate. We're not.

We're starting with a largely employer-based system in the United States and our government.

[12:35:00] If you just want to look, this is from America's health insurance plans, 512,000 health plan employees in the United States of America. Insurance-related employees, nearly a million. Total payroll for them, $33.5 billion.

This is a big chunk of the American economy. Remember in the ObamaCare debate if you like your plan, you can keep your plan? That turned into a big stumble for the Democrats then. Listen to Senator Sanders this morning on this question, what happens to private insurance companies?

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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And what happens to those insurance companies after your plan is implemented?

SANDERS: Under a Medicare for All we cover all basic healthcare needs, so they're not going to be there to do that. I suppose if you want to make yourself look a little bit more beautiful, you want to work on that nose, your ears, they can do that.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So basically Blue Cross Blue Shield will be reduced to nose jobs?

SANDERS: Something like that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: Can you sell that?

CATHERINE LUCEY, WHITE HOUSE REPORTER, THE ASSOCIATED PRESS: Well, I think one thing to think about, though, is, you know, all these Democrats are competing to run against President Trump. And they saw that in 2016 President Trump very successfully ran on big ideas and not a ton of specific policy proposals. So, I think if you're looking at that landscape and that you're looking to voters who want this sort of broad proposals and ideas, I mean, I think people are calculating that.

RACHAEL BADE, CONGRESSIONAL REPORTER, THE WASHINGTON POST: Just a few weeks ago, you know, we saw Kamala Harris say the same thing, you know, private insurance would disappear. Then there was a ton of blowback on her and she actually walked it back. And these are sort of things that Speaker Pelosi and other Democratic leaders are very concerned about that saying things like your private insurance will disappear, that that is going to repel swing voters that they need and that actually carried them to the majority in 2018.

Democrats ran on protecting pre-existing conditions. They ran on making sure that ObamaCare could be the best that it can be. They didn't run on Medicare for All. And there's a lot of --

BARRON-LOPEZ: And Republicans see an opening here.

BADE: Exactly.

LUCEY: Very much so. They see that, you know, you're proposing effectively repealing and replacing the Affordable Care Act, aren't you? I mean, that's the line you're going to hear from Republicans now. And after, you know, a rocky couple of weeks in healthcare, they feel pretty good at running against this idea.

BARRON-LOPEZ: Right, but I think that Democrats really are on strong footing heading into 2020 on healthcare. I mean, As you said, this is why they won the House. And so they really want to stay on message with this. I don't think that the argument from Republicans that, oh, you're going to repeal and replace ObamaCare is going to be effective against Democrats.

We may see Pelosi try to move quickly on something that would have to deal with lowering prescription drug prices. I think that's where they think they could be most effective heading into 2020, rather than having a showboat on Medicare for All.

KING: Right. And to the point of the Republican argument, you see the Republicans testing their lines. You had a good one there, you know, now you guys are for repealing and replacing this. This is Kellyanne Conway, the president's counselor this morning on her take on the Sanders proposal.

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KELLYANNE CONWAY, COUNSELOR TO THE PRESIDENT: We want to make sure that people understand Medicare for All means choices for none. When people hear government insurance, you can't just hear insurance, you have to hear the word government. You don't want government more involved in one of the most intimate parts of your life, your healthcare portfolio.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: Medicare for All means choices for none.

KNOX: Two messages in American politics, change is needed, change is scary. We know where everyone is lining up ahead of this, right?

KING: It's going to be fascinating to watch. And again, Senator Sanders has some support. This is going to be one of the big debates, first then Democratic primaries then we'll see.

And speaking of those Democratic primaries as we go to break, remarkable moment from our latest CNN town hall with the presidential candidates. Here is Senator Kirsten Gillibrand on whether she's mended fences with Hillary Clinton after suggesting her husband should have resigned over the Monica Lewinsky scandal.

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GILLIBRAND: For me, Secretary Clinton is still a role model for all of us, and my views on her husband is very different, and I've said all I'm going to say about that.

ERIN BURNETT, CNN ANCHOR: Has she given you advice on this presidential campaign?

GILLIBRAND: Yes, she has.

BURNETT: She has?

GILLIBRAND: Yes.

BURNETT: So is it a sense of -- you feel like she understands or she has forgiven you?

GILLIBRAND: You would have to ask her that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

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[12:43:14] KING: Topping our political radar today, Senator and Democratic Presidential Candidate Elizabeth Warren releasing her 2018 tax return today. She and her husband reported an adjusted gross income of $840,000. Close to half of that from his job as a Harvard law professor. She took in more than $300,000 from her book deals, the rest from her Senate salary. They paid more than $200,000 in taxes, gave more than $50,000 to charity.

Democratic presidential candidate, the former Colorado Governor John Hickenlooper laying out his economic agenda today at a labor union conference. Hickenlooper says he would push to raise the minimum wage, provide portable and universal healthcare, and paid family leave. And he says he would focus on skills training and apprenticeships. He says the private sector would get a big role.

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JOHN HICKENLOOPER (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Two out of three young people will never get a four-year degree. Two out of three. Those kids are the real future of our workforce but today they're being neglected. We'll give every major company an incentive to create a substantial skills training program within their own firm. Others may want to attack the entire private sector but the private sector drives growth.

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KING: Another Democratic hopeful, Senator Kirsten Gillibrand says in her words, quote, it's really important to admit when you're wrong. At a CNN town hall last night, the 2020 candidate quick to acknowledge her views on immigration have changed quite a bit since she served in the House. That, she says, sets her apart from President Trump.

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GILLIBRAND: We are a better country when we care about one another, when we believe in the golden rule, or we treat others the way we want to be treated. And because I did not do that as a House member, I was ashamed. And so now as a senator for 10 years, I know I'm in the right place. I know I am going to defend this country. I know I'm going to fight for those immigrant families as hard as I would fight for my own.

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[12:45:02] KING: The senator described herself as open-minded or not quite committed yet on some other important issues like federally- mandated vaccines and lowering the voting age.

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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Would you support mandatory vaccination except in the case of medical exemption?

GILLIBRAND: So I haven't thought about whether I would make it mandatory. I'd need to think about that.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Would you consider lowering the voting age to 16 years old?

GILLIBRAND: I don't know. I really don't know.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: Some people find that refreshing. The words I don't know, I'll think about it. Other people are like, well, you're running for president, where is your answer.

BARRON-LOPEZ: I think it's fair, right? Again, it's early, and so a lot of these candidates have time to make a decision on certain policies like that. Once we know that's only going to really come up in the Democratic primary. It's not something that Trump is going to be tweeting about. I mean, he might, but I don't expect him to.

Also, I think what's notable about Gillibrand is that she is willing to say I'm sorry, I made a mistake on these policies specifically immigration, my viewpoints have changed. In contrast that with Biden who last week we saw didn't really apologize for the positions that he's taken and the way he's handled the allegations of inappropriate touching against him. It'll be also interesting to see whether or not he wants to apologize for the crime bill of the 1990s or other policy issues that could come back to haunt him in the Democratic primary.

KING: He would prefer to explain his evolution to apologizing, I think is probably the best way he would put that.

Up next for us, get ready for a fight. Deadline day, not for you, but the president, the IRS to hand over his tax returns. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[12:50:50] KING: It's deadline day for President Trump's tax returns. House Democrats now waiting for the IRS to send its official response to a Ways and Means Committee request for the president's personal and business tax filings. Waiting for an answer in writing. But here's a pretty good verbal cue.

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DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I would love to give them, but I'm not going to do it while I'm under audit. It's very simple. Remember, I got elected last time. The same exact issue with the same intensity which wasn't very much, because, frankly, the people don't care.

I built a great company, one of the best companies. I have some of the greatest assets in the world. I did a good job. And now, frankly, I don't care about them, I only care about the United States. But I have no obligation to do that while I'm under audit.

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KING: Anyone at the table thinks the IRS is going to send up the president's returns after hearing that this morning?

BARRON-LOPEZ: Surprise. Washington would totally go for a loop.

BADE: No, Republic -- or Democrats on the Hill, they don't expect this, right? They don't expect to get anything by the end of but we are not expecting them to send a subpoena right after this. They missed this deadline because the Democrats are actually going to this policy retreat and they're going to try to keep the conversation on legislation this week as opposed to tax returns which is something they're trying to do at this point in time.

BARRON-LOPEZ: I think also the next thing we could see from Ways and Means Chairman Neal, again, we expect the deadline to be missed. The next thing he would do is send a second letter because lawyers have likely advised him that you want to have a bit more of a paper trail, it gives a stronger argument in front of a judge because Democrats expect this to go to court. They expect the challenge.

KING: And the Democratic position has been to the Treasury secretary and to the IRS commissioner, read the law and answer the question. Don't listen to the president or don't listen to the president's lawyers. The president has hired lawyers, he's prepared to go to court to fight this.

This is the Senate this morning. Senator Ron Wyden questioning the IRS commissioner about is anyone trying to shape your decision.

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CHARLES RETTIG, IRS COMMISSIONER: We received the letter. We're working on the letter with counsel, and we anticipate responding. SEN. RON WYDEN (D-OR): Has anybody in the Trump administration at any time, including your nominee vetting process, discussed with you how you'd comply or not comply with a congressional request to obtain the president's tax returns?

RETTIG: No.

WYDEN: Has anyone in or on behalf of the White House directly or indirectly instructed you to not comply with Chairman Neal's request?

RETTIG: No.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: Again, does anyone think that they're not listening at the IRS to what the president and his lawyers say, though?

KNOX: That would be the indirectly.

KING: That would be the indirectly part.

KNOX: I just want to pause and say I'm under audit, it doesn't mean anything. He just doesn't want to do it.

KING: Right.

KNOX: OK? There is nothing under audit that prevents him from releasing his tax returns. But no, that was the indirectly part, right? Has anyone indirectly shaped your thinking? I mean, of course, they're watching. Of course, they're taking (INAUDIBLE) what the president of the United States is saying.

KING: You make a very --

LUCEY: His lawyers -- and the president's lawyers made it very clear that they think that they're -- you know, they're questioning the basis for this request to the IRS. That they're going to fight this. The president has assembled, you know, a legal team around this. They're going to push back very, very hard.

KING: And you make a very important point for anyone who thinks the president -- no, he could if he wanted to release -- if he wanted to be transparent, he could release four or five years and say this year -- this particular year is under audit, I'm not going to give you those. At least that would be more, oh, OK, he's trying there.

Here's the Republicans, though. They understand where this is going. You say that, you know, the Democrats are going to be careful. A follow-up letter. Probably a follow-up letter after that then maybe a subpoena. Republicans seem to think this one's going to court.

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REP. TOM REED (R-NY): This is a question that's going to have to be litigated. There's a lot of people who disagree with that assessment, but if you're using this 6103 provisional law for political purposes, it's clear to me that's not what the intent to Congress was. This is not about tax administration, this is about political and weaponizing the tax code for political purposes. And Americans should be concerned about this, this is a dangerous precedent.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: We'll watch this -- go ahead.

BARRON-LOPEZ: Democrats are also prepared for it to go to court. So Neal has been meeting with lawyers and counsel for months now leading up to before he even released this first request. So they -- a number of them expect it to head that route, and they -- that's why Neal made the requests so narrow because they want to make sure they're on a solid legal footing.

[12:55:04] BADE: Yes. And Democrats might be using this to get at, you know, a political opponent, but it might not matter. I mean, if the law says that the Treasury, the secretary shall turn over this tax information when requested by Congress. I mean, it doesn't say may, it doesn't say should, it says shall. So legally in court, Democrats feel they're on solid footing.

It's going to be up to Republicans to try to make the case publicly that, you know, this is a witch hunt, this is -- they're going after the president and try to sway a legal -- public opinion in that way. But Democrats point to polls that show that something like more than a majority of Americans do want to see the president's tax returns.

KING: We'll watch the fight in public opinion and in the courthouse. Thanks for joining us today in the INSIDE POLITICS. Hope to see you back here this time tomorrow.

Brianna Keilar will be here after a very quick break. Have a good afternoon.

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