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DOJ Says Some Asylum Seekers Can Now Be Held Indefinitely; Sen. Ron Johnson (R-WI) Is Interviewed About Asylum Seekers; FBI: "Investigative Activity" in Search for Columbine Threat Suspect; FBI: No Longer A Threat to Community in Columbine Suspect Search; Local Affiliates: Columbine Threat Suspect is Dead. Aired 12:30-1p ET

Aired April 17, 2019 - 12:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[12:30:00] SEN. RON JOHNSON (R-WI): Don't have their asylum claim granted. So this process is being completely exploited, and people need to understand, I was down in the border, they turned themselves in, that they really have done it and they shouldn't have any fear of Border Patrol agents because these people have a great deal of humanity.

But Border Patrol and ICE have been turned into just tools of the drug cartels, they processed, they apprehend, they processed and they dispersed. So, people that are crossing the border, (INAUDIBLE) as they realize in just a few days of processing their ordeal is over and they're going to be home free staying in America long term as seen in a city near you.

DANA BASH, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: And I understand that. But in the short term -- I was down at the border last week with the vice president, as well, and the one complaint -- the takeaway that I got is how overrun the system is as he just described. So on a practical level, in the short term, how are you -- how is the Justice Department, how is this new ruling even going to work? There's no place to put these migrants.

JOHNSON: So we do need to address the problem in the here and now. I hear people, let's send billions down and repair the economies of Central America. That's not going to happen -- or repair those economies anytime soon. We have to address this problem. Michael Chertoff showed us how to do this.

In 2005, we had a surge of Brazilian people coming in this country illegally so he set up a process of (INAUDIBLE) removal, 31,000 came in, in 2005. Within a month, that was reduced by 60 percent, within two months, reduced by 90 percent. The following year only 1,400 Brazilians came in here. So, we need to rapidly determine, is this a valid asylum claim, price up the bar a little bit higher so that -- you know, only -- you have more than only 15 percent actually have a valid asylum claim in terms of, you know, when is adjudicated.

And then we need to remove people because that will send a very powerful signal. That will be a consequence and so folks in Central America won't pay the coyotes, these human smugglers who are making hundreds of millions of dollars. They won't pay them years with their salary, they won't risk that money.

So, the achievable goal for (INAUDIBLE), you should be to reduce that flow, reduce that flow by having a consequence of rapid removal for those people who do not have a valid asylum claim. If you have a valid asylum claim, you get let into America. We're a compassionate nation, we don't want to see people, you know, harmed by gangs. But most of these individuals who are coming here, they already have relatives, they already have a job lined in that's lined up, that's economic migration. That's not a valid asylum claim, and we can't allow this illegal overrun of our country.

BASH: So Senator, what you're talking about is a legislative fix. So far, there has been no appetite at all in Congress to actually figure out a way to do that. And that is why the administration has been acting on its own. I mentioned I was with the vice president on the border, I was in Nogales, Arizona. Listen to what he said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MIKE PENCE, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: It's absolutely essential to end a humanitarian crisis that really threatens the security of the American people, and is creating a hardship on both sides of our border. Congress needs to act. President Trump is doing his job. Our brave Border Patrol agents are doing their job. It's time for Congress to do their job.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BASH: So Senator, I have no doubt that you are -- I know that you are very actively trying to get legislation done to do just that, to fix this legislatively because that's the only way to do it. But, color me skeptical on the notion that you can actually find a way for this incredibly divided Congress especially on this hot button topic such as immigration to do this. Tell me why you think that this time could be different.

JOHNSON: So the ball is clearly in Congress' court. The administration simply can't solve this problem on their own. So, the way you solve any problem is first, you lay out the reality, you have to admit you have a problem. We got this come along ways, I haven't heard Democrats say this is a manufactured crisis anymore. This is so overwhelming the evidence of what is happening here.

So, we held two great hearings in the last couple of weeks. I had Democrat members of my committee come up and, you know, tap on the shoulders and say, yes, let's sit down, this is a problem, we got to fix it, let's sit down and work together. So, we've come up with the outlines of the Families ACT that does provide that rapid adjudication, a faster but fair system while we hold people in detention and have enough the -- you know, enough resources to do this so we can make that determination and we can remove people, have that consequence.

That is the solution that would require congressional action. But again, I'm encouraged that at least Democrats are admitting we have the problem. Removal is the solution. I know Senator Durbin was down in El Paso talking to the same people, asking the same good questions, getting the exact same answer in terms of what the solution is. It's called removal for those people who do not have a valid asylum claim.

BASH: Senator, thank you. We are going to be watching to see that you try to push that through Congress. Appreciate it. I want to say thank you to you because we have some breaking news.

[12:35:03] And the breaking news is out of Denver, Colorado where police have been hunting for a woman they describe as armed and dangerous. The FBI in Denver tweeted confirming there is investigative activity around the base of Mt. Evans which is west of the city of Denver.

I want to get straight to our own Josh Campbell who is a former supervisory special agent with the FBI. Josh, what do we know at this hour?

JOSH CAMPBELL, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: All right, Dana, so this manhunt has been going on for since yesterday. We know this resulted in the closing of numerous schools, that are in the Denver area, the FBI receiving a tip out of Miami that was then shared with officials in Denver regarding this woman who had traveled there, authorities believe may have been intending to cause some type of harm. They believe that she purchased a shotgun.

Now what we're hearing from officials as we indicate here on Twitter or some type of investigative activity. And I could tell you, having served under the FBI, until they actually have her in custody, you're not going to get an all clear. They're not going to come out and fully, you know, explain exactly what happened. I think what they're doing now is letting residents in that area know that if you see a large presence of law enforcement officers descending on that location, this is why.

And the fact that they're tying this to this hashtag find Sol, again, tells us that this is part of this ongoing investigation. Now, the question remains, is this person someone that they're going to be able to arrest. We know earlier as we are hearing from officials that they didn't yet have a charge. FBI has put out a statement indicating that they consider her armed and dangerous. So we know that any type of tactical response in order to try to arrest her, you would see the full resources of a tactical team, again, trying to make contact with her and then bring her into custody in order to, again, conduct an interview to figure out what is actually going on there, her motivation.

But this is the latest that we've seen thus far from the FBI from law enforcement telling us that there is some type of overt investigative activity that's going on right now. We'll continue to work our sources to determine whether or not she's been arrested.

BASH: Josh, as we talk about this breaking news, just to bring our viewers up to speed about exactly what we're talking about. The woman you see on the screen, 18-year-old Sol Pais, and she according to local and federal officials made credible but not specific threats after traveling from Miami to Denver on Monday night. And she apparently is somebody who is infatuated with the Columbine massacre. Of course, that deadly school shooting in the Denver area, the anniversary, 28th anniversary of that is this coming weekend on this Saturday. So that was the threat that is the concern.

And Josh, what they have done in Colorado is really remarkable. They have closed almost 20 school districts today as they look for this woman. I mean, that is extraordinary but understandable given the history of that area.

CAMPBELL: It is indeed. A very aggressive posture here by law enforcement. What it comes down to is we're told from law enforcement officials that they did -- they deem her to be a credible threat but they don't have what they called a specific threat at this point. So, although they believe she is armed and dangerous, this tip that they received from Miami doesn't indicate what exactly her target was.

Was there a specific school? But as you mentioned, the fact that they know from her history that she has expressed this infatuation towards Columbine, and as you mentioned here being on the heels of the 20th anniversary obviously is an important data point for law enforcement. And it actually concerned them enough where they essentially shut the whole city, the area down as far as schools, again, trying to ensure that the students were safe, that there aren't any threats are out there until they actually make contact with her and bring her safely into custody.

And again, now that we see that latest statement from law enforcement, that what they're calling quote unquote investigative activity, again, that's the most overt that we've seen from them thus far providing information about latest developments as it relates to the subject.

BASH: Josh, stay with us, I want to bring in CNN Law Enforcement Analyst James Gagliano. And what is your take on this tweet, and what it tells you about where the investigation is that we're almost there in terms of getting this woman into custody?

JAMES GAGLIANO, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Well, I want to kind of minimize expectations here. First of all, an investigative activity could mean a whole host of things. It could be as little as stopping and talk into somebody on the street or chasing down a lead --

BASH: But would they tweet about that?

GAGLIANO: Yes -- but it also could indicate that maybe they got enough evidence to get a search warrant. They could possibly be looking and getting evidence that will track this person down.

Look, Dana, she is still just considered a person of interest, she is not a fugitive. The concerning part are some comments that she made on some websites in the dark nether regions of the internet, some inflammatory and incendiary speech. And you tie that in with this piece, she purchased a shotgun. Twenty years ago this Saturday on April 20 of 1999, Dylan Klebold and Eric Harris used two sorts of shotguns. So I'm sure authorities are looking at this, they're following all the evidence, they're not trying to do any type of profiling because, in this instance, women are a lot less predisposed to do something like this than men.

[12:40:00] I think the FBI believes they're just under five percent of any type of violent activity that involves a mass shooting or an active shooter. It's usually 96 percent of the time a man so, they'll follow all the leads, they'll treat her like a person of interest. They can't arrest her yet unless they have some new evidence, and that could have changed in the last hour or two. But they could bring her in, conduct brief investigative detention, and try to determine if there is anything that she could say that could give light to some of her statements online that they found so troubling.

BASH: Talk about the law enforcement strategy, James, of being so transparent in the investigation, so out there, so open. Is it to just as simple as to get help to see if somebody sees her, to put her picture out as we are doing right now on the screen? Or is there something more to it?

GAGLIANO: Dana, that is the age-old dual-edged sword. On one point, you don't want to put too much out there to spook potential accomplices or have people destroy evidence or to give her the indication that if she's in a rural area and doesn't have access to news, you know, give her indication that authorities are looking for her. The other side of that coin is the media can help law enforcement here because what we're doing right now is called crowdsourcing. We put her face out there, we put the story out there so that somebody in this part of Denver, in this part of the Colorado region can take a look and say, hey, I think I saw that person down here at the corner store. And give that tip, no matter how insignificant you might believe it to be at the time, give that tip to law enforcement, see your local sheriff, see your local police or call the 1-800 number for the FBI in your local office.

BASH: OK, James Gagliano, Josh Campbell, stay with us. We are going to keep looking at this. And again, this is a new tweet from law enforcement saying that this woman, the person of interest, 18-year- old Sol Pais that there is activity in the case. And this is so serious, so significant that 20 school districts, almost 20 are closed in the Denver area because they are concerned about this woman being at large because of the fact that she purchased a shotgun, and of course the fact that she has made clear that she is obsessed and infatuated with the Columbine massacre which happened 20 years ago, Saturday.

OK, everybody, stay with us. We're going to look for more information, take a quick break. Don't go anywhere.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[12:46:48] BASH: Welcome back. We are continuing to follow breaking news. We understand that the FBI has more information about this woman, this person of interest who has been at large. They were very -- so concerned about the -- what was going on.

There you go. Let's see the update. "There is no longer a threat to the community. More information to follow shortly. Hashtag find Sol." OK, there is no longer a threat. I want to get straight to our experts and our former FBI Agent Josh Campbell, let's start with you. Translate that. No longer a threat means?

CAMPBELL: Yes, it could mean a number of things. I think first and foremost, they're signaling to the community that the threat has been neutralized whether that means a person has been taken into custody or this ended a different way. That we don't yet know but at least in their mind they have by -- as I read to the (INAUDIBLE) of this tweet, they've taken the person, they've made contact with her. Again, we'll have to sort out and figure out whether or not she is someone that they arrested, whether there was some kind of encounter with law enforcement.

We know that they consider her armed and dangerous. We've seen incidences where law enforcement arrives and someone tries to either flee or engage law enforcement in which case that would be the authorized use of deadly force in the partial law enforcement. We don't that happened right now but they're not saying that she was arrested, they're not saying that she -- that they're doing some type of investigative detention. They're saying that there is no longer a threat which is very vague.

We have to wait and see exactly what that means.

BASH: Also, I mean, I don't want to speculate too much, James Gagliano, but it also sounds ominous maybe isn't the right word, but very clear about what the fate of this suspect or this person of interest is. They're very confident of whatever it is.

GAGLIANO: Yes, Dana, to me, I mean, I take that as extremely reassuring. And why? Well, Josh mentioned that it indicates she was either taken into custody or somehow ended her own life or engaged in a shootout. We don't know, that's pure speculation.

But what I read into that is this, that means that law enforcement is confident that there is not a broader conspiracy here. Look, the concern was not just one single person with a shotgun who said some inflammatory and incendiary comments on social media and on the internet, but the fact that she might have actually had some accomplices or people that she was working with or, you know, basically conspiring with. So that's what that says to me. It jumps out and says police are confident that there is no imminent threat now.

Now, look, they'll do further investigation and further, you know, details could come forward and there could be further developments. But that's what that indicates to me just reading that on its face.

CAMPBELL: And Dana --

BASH: Sure, go ahead, Josh.

CAMPBELL: I was just going to add, you have to understand, I mean, this is a community that has been rocked for the better part of 24 hours. And so, if the threat has been neutralized, it's incumbent upon law enforcement to get that message out. And I think that's what we're seeing.

BASH: Rocked for 24 hours and even more so for 20 years.

I want to get to CNN's Scott McLean who is in Littleton, Colorado. And Scott, I mean, this is an area, the Denver area that had Columbine, had Aurora, I mean, mass shootings is their living nightmare, unfortunately. So the fact that this is going on, that kids were told not to go to school, and we're talking about 100 schools in some 20 school districts because they were so worried about the threat of this woman that you see on the screen.

[12:50:12] I know this news just came about. But what is the feeling on the ground there as they are told by law enforcement that she is no longer a threat?

SCOTT MCLEAN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes. It's a little bit strange to see because obviously, this is when school would normally be on, Dana, it is the middle of the week, a Wednesday. And the last time that I saw a Columbine parking lot look like this with just, you know, a couple of police cars, some pylons out in an empty parking lot was last year on the anniversary of the Columbine massacre when typically they don't hold class on that day. And so, it's a pretty bizarre sight to see. We've not seen hardly any students walking around. There's obviously very little traffic going up and down.

And you have to imagine that authorities here, they don't take the decision to shut down the school for well over half a million students very lightly. We're talking about 20 school districts. Not just schools, school districts. I mean, this is hundreds of schools. They had to have believed that there was a legitimate threat for them to do that.

Dana, also, A little bit about the area where the FBI has said that there was some activity going on at Mt. Evans, this is about an hour and a half --

BASH: Scott, I just want to let you know and let our viewers know, as you're talking, you can keep talking, we have some video of what you're describing coming in from Mt. Evans, Colorado. I think we can play it now. Go ahead, Scott.

MCLEAN: Yes. So this is an area about an hour and a half drive from where we are in Littleton. It is -- initial reports were that she was last spotted somewhere out in the foothills. This is beyond the foothills, this is -- as you're driving out to the main ski resorts. It is in a pretty remote area. You'll have to go down a seasonal, I believe road with plenty of switchbacks in order to get there.

So, she was not in the main area. She was in a pretty remote part of the Colorado mountains that is really not so easy to get to. It's not clear to me exactly what is there, but we did reach out to the Clear Creek Sheriff's Office, that's the county that is in, and they are referring everything to the FBI. Obviously, the FBI at this point is being pretty coy, pretty vague about what they mean by there is no longer a threat to the community. But I can tell you that a lot of people here will be breathing a sigh of relief because again, it is hard to overstress the significance of shutting down schools across a metro area the size of Denver, Dana.

BASH: Oh, absolutely. I mean, it is really remarkable, and it is an extreme effect or extreme move.

But, look, this is as you said about the parking lot, this is an area that has been rocked, shattered by school shootings in the recent past. And so I think you can consider the alternative. What if they didn't do this, and they didn't apprehend this person and there was still a threat? Then there would have been a lot of should have, would have, could have. So, they are taking every precaution in general but especially for the area that has, unfortunately, had to deal with this.

And just to reiterate, Scott, that it was just last night that Dean Phillips who's a special agent in the FBI office there in Denver said the search was a massive manhunt. They were looking for this woman who you see on the screen there, Sol Pais, 18-years-old because they got a tip that she was flying from Miami to the Denver area that she made clear on the internet and other forums that she was infatuated with Columbine and had purchased a firearm.

Scott? OK, we've lost Scott's audio. We will get back to you, Scott, if you can hear me in a minute. Let's go back to Josh and to James, our law enforcement analysts and those who have been in the trenches, been in the field.

And Josh, as we wait for the answer from the FBI exactly what they mean with their tweet, there is no longer a threat, as you have had a moment to think about it, what are you processing having been on the other side as the person who helped craft a tweet like that?

CAMPBELL: Yes. I mean, there are a lot of different, you know, options here for law enforcement whenever they neutralize a threat as far as what they actually put out to the public. And again, I just go back to the vagueness of this initial message. Again, they're doing their job. Their job is to let the public know that there is no longer a threat --

BASH: Josh, I just want to interrupt you just to tell you what the people can see on our screen. Local affiliates, CNN affiliates are reporting that this suspect is dead.

CAMPBELL: OK.

BASH: That the suspect -- that Sol Pais is, in fact, dead which obviously led the FBI to have the confidence to say that there is no longer a threat. Go ahead.

CAMPBELL: No, I was going to say that, you know, they have actually different options as far as what they put out, that the subject is taken into custody.

[12:55:02] I mean, there's no harm to actually, you know, put that information out. When we first heard that it did seem very vague and this would be, you know, obviously, now we're seeing that local reporting that the person is now deceased. There still questions remain. We don't yet know whether or not this person was engaged by law enforcement or whether she took her own life. There've been a number of different ways in the past as far as how these things have gone down. I recall a manhunt fugitive up in Pennsylvania where the authorities arrived and they just happened to see the subject, didn't have time to call him out and went in and grabbed him, a firearm was, you know, not far away, that could have ended very differently.

We've seen this in where the person wants to die in suicide by a cop for example, so again, we'll just have to wait and see what this person actually did, what the circumstances were. I will say that because this person was deemed armed and dangerous we know any law enforcement officer that was up there in the foothills searching for her would have been on high alert.

Again, that's a phrase that law enforcement uses armed and dangerous, that goes out to those who were doing the search. And they know that they have to be vigilant because this person is dangerous, we know that she purchased a firearm. We'll just have to wait and see what actually went down and what the circumstances were that led to her demise.

BASH: Well -- and I would imagine that we are minutes away from finding out the back story. And I'm sure it is a dramatic one that led to her demise with law enforcement engaged in this -- to use their words, a massive manhunt for the past day, even less than a day.

I want to get back to Scott on the ground in Littleton, Colorado. And Scott, I believe we have you back. Now, we haven't spoken since the news about our affiliates reporting that she is dead. That Sol Pais, the 18-year-old who has been the subject of this manhunt, the person who they were concerned about as a very credible threat has died.

MCLEAN: Yes, and it's really extraordinary that it's gotten to this point, Dana, because I can tell you in interviewing last year the former principal of Columbine at the time of the 1999 massacre, Frank DeAngelis, he will tell you there is a laundry list of threats and really strange individuals that have come, you know, through Columbine over the past couple of years. There was one woman he recalled to me that, you know, said that she was coming to see where her husband died implying that she had somehow been posthumously married to one of the shooters in this massacre.

And so, there's all kinds of bizarre threats and people. But it rarely ends with much of anything. They're pretty used to lockouts, lockdowns, that type of thing but typically in these cases, you know, the threat is found or the person is found and we move on. It is pretty extraordinary that it has come to this where you actually have a person who posed a threat and now is dead.

BASH: It's so true, Scott. Thank you so much. I know you have to go and do some reporting.

And James Gagliano, on that note, I mean, you know, as a law enforcement official, you probably dealt with threats, you know, by the minute, you know, or maybe by the hour especially as you come around a key anniversary of a tragedy where there are copycat people, people who are saying that, you know, they want to do things. But to get to this extreme point where there is a massive manhunt, where a hundred schools are closed, and we don't know the circumstances of her death, but that the person of interest -- she wasn't even called a suspect, is dead, what does that tell you?

GAGLIANO: Well, first of all, Dana, the fact that there are people out there that actually mythologize folks like, you know, Dylan Klebold and Eric Harris, they exists. And again, it's -- you know, we'll always go to this point, once we know that there's no more threat to the community there, the FBI is going to get to the bottom of what was the specific credible threat that concerned them enough? Because if you go on the internet, you will see, you know, hateful rhetoric, you will see incendiary words, you will see all types of people saying things in the heat of the moment or saying things that they're considering wild hyperbole.

And the FBI has to sort through that and determine what is just wild hyperbole and what is an actual credible threat they found something here to turn them onto this woman, to pursue her as a person of interest? And thankfully, I guess the community right now can rest easy that they're saying that there is not a threat ongoing in that region right now anymore.

BASH: And Josh, a source is telling CNN, I'm being told that she was found dead, that she was found dead which is quite interesting and it, you know, tells us that there may be not necessarily was a shootout or anything -- you know, any of the possibilities that you were just describing a few minutes ago.

CAMPBELL: Sorry, I just lost audio, Dana, I have to throw it back to you. I'm sorry.

BASH: OK, Josh, stay with us. James, I don't know if you heard me about the --

GAGLIANO: Yes.

BASH: -- the CNN reporting that she was found dead.

GAGLIANO: Absolutely. So, I mean, you know, that -- you look at that and you say she probably took her own life. She probably knew that there was a dragnet that was closing in on her and that's probably what happened. As long as law enforcement didn't say it was an officer-involved shooting, that's probably the likelihood that she ended up killing herself.

BASH: OK, James Gagliano, Josh Campbell, Scott McLean on the ground, thank you all.

[13:00:00]