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Two State Department Officials Testify Today On Ukraine Pressure; State Department Officials Tell Of Shadow Ukraine Foreign Policy; Alexander Vindman Testifies About The Missing Words In White House-Ukraine Call Transcript; Breaking Down The Democrats' House Impeachment Plan; Mitch McConnell Pushes Ahead On Legislation Anticipating Impeachment Drag. Aired 12-12:30p ET
Aired October 30, 2019 - 12:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[12:00:00]
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JOHN KING, CNN HOST: Welcome to INSIDE POLITICS. I'm John King. Thank you for sharing your day with us. Two more Trump insiders provide impeachment building blocks, detailing to Congress how Rudy Giuliani ran a shadow Ukraine policy and how aid was held up by the President at a time he was pushing Ukraine to launch an investigation of the Bidens.
Plus, impeachment not the only White House political worry a new government report out today details slowing economic growth a growth rate well below what President Trump promised and Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell could soon be Washington's most important impeachment player but he's holding his cards tight and suggesting Senate Democrats help get some other government business done while the impeachment debate is still on the House side of the Capitol.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. MITCH MCCONNELL (R-KY): I think it's pretty clear our Democratic colleagues do not have a great affinity for President Trump, but the country cannot afford for Democrats in Congress to take a one-year vacation from any productive legislation just because they'd rather obsess over impeachment.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: We begin the hour up on Capitol Hill where Democrats are constructing their impeachment case against the President one building block at a time. Today, two more witnesses offering their own perspective on the inquiry especially regarding the shadow foreign policy on Ukraine led by Rudy Giuliani. Catherine Croft a Special Advisor on Ukraine for the State Department up first. Her opening statement says she took calls from a lobbyist who wanted the U.S. Ambassador to Ukraine gone. She says she was told that President Trump ordered his Acting Chief of Staff Mick Mulvaney to put an informal hold on security aid to Ukraine.
Next up Christopher Anderson who held Croft's position before her. Anderson's opening statement describes a call in June where Former National Security Adviser John Bolton raised concerns about Rudy Giuliani's role in Ukraine foreign policy. This testimony coming yesterday after dramatic deposition from Alexander Vindman, he was President Trump's top Ukraine expert on the National Security Counsil and first current west wing official to testify in the impeachment inquiry.
A source telling CNN Vindman testified the White House edited out a few keyword and details in that memo detailing the President's holy scrutinize July 25th call with Ukraine's President. The White House denies any such edits. Here with me to share the reporting and their insights in sights Seung Min Kim with "The Washington Post", Matt Viser also with "The Post" Tamara Keith with NPR and Jackie Kucinich with "The Daily Beast".
Two more Trump foreign policy insiders. The Democrats have this methodical approach and at the center of it again today Rudy Giuliani and the people who were supposed to be doing this saying the day job saying what is he doing involved in this and why are things going awry?
TAMARA KEITH, WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, NPR: You're starting to see some cohesion in the pushback on that coming from Republicans and allies of the President which is, well, there's just a difference of opinion about what American foreign policy should be and the President should be allowed to have whatever foreign policy he wants and if he wanted Rudy Giuliani out there doing his foreign policy, then so be it.
That is the pushback at least that is developing. Again and again you are having officials come forward in this testimony completely corroborating what was in the whistleblower complaint.
SEUNG MIN KIM, WHITE HOUSE REPORTER, WASHINGTON POST: You're seeing more and more too just how difficult it's getting for Republicans to make those arguments based on substance which goes completely against what the President had urged his allies on Capitol Hill and elsewhere to do that this week, stop arguing so much on the process and argue more on the substance.
You see with the drip, drip, drip that we see coming from the testimonies of people who are respected officials in their respected fields under oath. It becomes really difficult for Republicans to even try to defend the President on the substance. What you've seen a lot, particularly from Senate Republicans who have been a little bit more reserved than their House counterparts in reacting to a lot of this is that they're deferring commenting saying I'm going to be a juror, I don't want to talk about this too much or also explain at a say we can't really comment on one kind of piece of the picture when we haven't seen the whole painting.
KING: We'll come a little bit later to the President. He keeps insisting in recent days they should focus on the substance. Republicans are unlike to do that because - most of them because the substance is pretty damning. To your point the President has every right, he won the election. He has every right to conduct his own foreign policy.
When his State Department is not looped in, when his National Security Advisor is objecting all the time, I don't think that's how they teach it at Wharton, how to run a successful organization. And so to that point Christopher Anderson in his opening statement again working with the Special Envoy Volker, they brought in a special envoy to try to work on Ukraine it says on June 13th I accompanied Ambassador Volker to a meeting with National Security Adviser John Bolton.
However, he cautioned that Mr. Giuliani was a key voice with the President on Ukraine which could be an obstacle to increased White House engagement. The people whose job at this to getting paid by the tax payers hired by the Trump Administration to do Ukraine policy to try to get them to legitimately to deal with serious corruption issues to try to help them against Russian aggression, the whole having to worry about the President's Personal Attorney and still unspoken in any of this testimony who was making money in Ukraine while he was doing this.
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JACKIE KUCINICH, WASHINGTON BUREAU CHIEF, THE DAILY BEAST: Right, who had another agenda entirely? Initially we had heard that there were a lot of uncomfortable people with Giuliani's involvement. Now they have faces, now they have names and they're all telling their story to the House. The more that happens, you have to wonder when does Giuliani end up on the Hill or will he end upon the Hill, because it all seems to center with him, a lot of these arguments.
MATT VISER, NATIONAL POLITICAL REPORTER, THE WASHINGTON POST: I think you're also seeing in sort of full view the disagreements within the administration over Ukraine policy. Not only are you having a shadow foreign policy, but you're having career diplomats who saw the value in aid to Ukraine, who believed in cracking down on corruption.
And we're sort of carrying on the policies of the Obama Administration and where Joe Biden was on these issues of needing to provide aid but in term for crackdown on corruption. Giuliani threw a wrench in that whole foreign policy engagement. Now you're seeing these diplomats come forward and talk about the foreign policy in addition to the shadow foreign policy that was being run.
KING: Again, Catherine Croft in her testimony today, during my time at the NSC the National Security Counsil at the White House I received multiple calls from lobbyist Robert Livingston a Former Republican Speaker of the House who told me that Ambassador Yovanovitch should be fired. He characterized Ambassador Yovanovitch as an Obama holdover associated with George Soros.
It was not clear to me at the time or now at whose direction or whose expense Mr. Livingston was seeking the removal of the Ambassador. I documented these calls and told my boss Fiona Hill and George Kent who was Kyiv at the time I was not aware of any action that was taken in response.
So you have a Republican lobbyist in town pushing for this. We also know unrelated to impeachment, the number two at the State Department is the President's choice to be the next Ambassador to Moscow. He's over on the Senate side today. He was asked a very similar question about Rudy Giuliani during his confirmation hearing.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOHN SULLIVAN, DEPUTY SECRETARY OF STATE: My knowledge in the spring and summer of this year about any involvement of Mr. Giuliani was in connection with a campaign against our Ambassador to Ukraine.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You were given a packet of disinformation attempting to smear Ambassador Yovanovitch. Do you know it was Mr. Giuliani who created that package?
SULLIVAN: To this day, I don't know that. I did ask but I don't know.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And no one told you where it came from?
SULLIVA: No.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So it happened by Immaculate Conception.
SULLIVAN: Hence, my referral of the package.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: Referral being to the Inspector General at the State Department. You get a couple of things. Number one, how uncomfortable they are with endurance in this case with Giuliani but that something was going on that was outside of the normal process. And number two you also get the sense there and this goes back to the impeachment debate but also to the broader argument raised by anonymous in that essay that others have raised in stay on of the Trump Administration of people in the administration trying do their jobs and essentially putting on blinders when all this stuff is happening around them that they find reckless, they find wrong and in some cases they find improper, just trying to find like how do I ignore this and try do my job?
VISER: To the point of not wanting to be associated with Giuliani whatsoever even acknowledging where this packet of information came from. It's pretty striking in testimony from the Deputy Secretary of State.
KIM: An interesting point to that he also said in testimony earlier for his confirmation hearing that he kind of subtly rebuked what Trump and Giuliani were doing here, saying that soliciting investigations into a domestic political opponent, I don't think that would be in accord with our values. You see how even as the President and his administration try to explain away what he did in that phone call with President Zelensky, that other people who want promotions to key positions in the administration are trying to back away from what that happen.
KUCINICH: But even Senators are saying a similar thing. You have Republican Senators saying that I don't like what he did, I wouldn't do that, but I don't think it's an impeachable offense. And that's going to be the question that they're going to have to answer as more and more information comes out.
KING: And part of the more information is Colonel Vindman who was up there yesterday, again a decorated won a Purple Heart in Iraq, the President is trying to question his character. The President says that July 25th call was perfect. Remember the White House released a memo it's not a full transcript, but it's essentially a pretty detailed recitation of the phone call.
Colonel Vindman says that he pushed the White House when he says that to fix it. He says there were some deficiencies in it. He or she looking at the situation specifically to the company that you mentioned that President Zelensky from the call Vindman saying that there were specific references to Biden and specific references where the ellipses are in that memo that they were it seems to be edited out. He did not say why but he said he tried to have to get them back in there. So maybe it's not so perfect.
[12:10:00]
KEITH: Well, the things that were in those ellipses at least as we understand from the reporting on Vindman's testimony are things that the President has said in public already, things like, well, there's a tape of Biden saying this or the President mentioning Burisma the gas company. In some ways, President Trump has said everything in public already that is now being discussed behind closed doors.
VISER: Although I do wonder what the tape of Joe Biden, if he's referring in fact to the 2018 tape where Joe Biden is speaking before the Council on Foreign Relations and talking about pressure that he put on Poroshenko, the President of Ukraine at the time.
KEITH: Also public.
VISER: Also public or if there's some other tape that the President is referencing in that memo about the call. I don't think we know that yet.
KEITH: But the President's claim that this is a perfect transcript of a perfect call is called into question certainly by this testimony.
KING: Right, without a doubt. Then again to the point that Republicans, you know, there was no quid pro quo, there's been a lot of testimony there was quid pro quo. The call is perfect. Now there's testimony what they released was edited, conveniently so. If you're a Republican and the President says go out on the substance that could be quicksand which is why one of the things, why we see the process arguments.
If you have a question about the impeachment for me or anyone here at the table, tweet us, use the hashtag inside politics we may answer your questions at the end of the show or on our podcast. Up next, the President says make it about the substance, but Republicans as the Democrats prepare to pass new rules for impeachment, more and more want to talk process.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) [12:15:00]
KING: President Trump offering Republicans an impeachment strategy memo of sorts today through his morning tweets. The President insists Republicans are, "Unified and energized for the impeachment fight". And he adds starting to go after the substance even more than the very unfair - we assume he means unfair process.
That last part is a stretch as we discussed a bit earlier, most Republicans say they can't defend the Presidential conduct being detailed by the President's own foreign policy team, but the GOP is up in arms about the impeachment process even as Democrats prepare for a vote tomorrow on a new resolution that does give Republicans a lot of what they've been demanding.
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REP. LIZ CHENEY (R-WY): They're now attempting to sort of put a cloak of legitimacy around this process by saying they're going to bring it to a vote on the floor. They can't fix it. The process is broken. It's tainted.
REP. KEVIN MCCARTHY (R-CA): You can't put a Genie back in the bottle a due process starts at the beginning. It doesn't affirm a miss sham investigation all the way through. If you were in the legal term, it would be the fruit from the poisonous tree. It would be a mistrial.
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KING: That adds the process argument. Democrats are giving them some of what they have long been demanding in this resolution will come out tomorrow. Here is what we know about it the Intelligence Committee will hold open hearings. The Republicans can request witnesses and issue subpoenas. The Democrats have to sign off on that that sort of normal House procedure.
The Intelligence Committee will forward its findings to the Judiciary Committee which of course has jurisdiction over the impeachment question. The President's lawyers when you get there can present their case and cross examine witnesses. The Judiciary Committee then would vote on any articles of impeachment.
This is a lot of what Republicans at the beginning said they should get. Not everything. And we'll see how it plays out when you actually have the public hearings and if they're actually are articles of impeachment probably before the Judiciary Committee, but here's what you wanted but you still don't like it?
KIM: I mean, I think that's blear, I think no matter what Democrats have come up with, this has been a pretty bitter partisan process all along. I mean, they are points in there, yes you know they do get to request subpoenas but only with the Democratic Committee approval majority. It's the same process in place for the Clinton impeachment proceedings.
Clearly Republicans are in the minority. There's not a guarantee they would get the subpoenas and other orders that they want. We're expecting this to be a pretty partisan vote tomorrow. I think when we were talking to some White House officials earlier yesterday on the Hill, they said you know and also Mitch McConnell as well, they're saying we have to see the resolution but they were still continuing to criticize the process.
I mean, you're going to see a couple of Democrats perhaps vote against this inquiry tomorrow, probably zero Republicans. It's kind of expected it was going to be a pretty partisan process all along.
KING: But the Speaker wouldn't bring it to the floor without knowing she has the votes for it. So this is kind of the process that what we get. This is what we have had so far private testimony. There are three committees technically involved in that. Most of that had been done in the purview of the Intelligence Committee Adam Schiff running it the other Committee members are allowed in.
Now when you get to public hearings Chairman Schiff would stay in charge. It would go to the Intelligence Committee. That's a tactical decision made by the Speaker to keep it with him who she trusts. But then you would have to go to the Judiciary Committee because it has jurisdiction over the I word over impeachment and then if articles of impeachment are voted out, that's when you get to the full House of Representatives. The question is as we prepare to step into November, next year being an election year, when?
VISER: I think so far like if you're a Democrat, you've sort of liked this process. It's been almost a daily drum beat of new revelations out of these closed door hearings through the testimony. You bring up a good point where the strategy now shifts to much more of a public strategy and one by which they need to put pressure on Republicans and on Senate Republicans to sort of change the dynamic here. So this whole process will change over the next couple of weeks and there's a clock ticking, you know, to try and handle this.
KING: And the quality and the clarity of the witnesses in the public hearings, you can read through a 20-page deposition and find the three or four lines that substantively make your case. When that person is sitting in the chair on national television on international television, presumably being attacked by the Republicans, the Democrats have to make their chases choices about how they proceed.
[12:20:00]
KEITH: There were a lot of people who are Democrats who had hoped that Robert Mueller would come and his report was unreadable, the public hadn't read it but he just came and testified everything would be clear. That did not work out the way Democrats wanted it to work out. That might partially explain why Adam Schiff gets the reins on this one.
The President and his allies have been for months beating up on Adam Schiff, sort of working the refs in advance making sure that no Republican thinks that he's a credible Chairman who could run this process. And so as it goes public, he will be a public face. You know, the Trump campaign will continue selling shirts with his face on it. KUCINICH: But this is an inherently political process from start to
finish. It's not going to get better. It's going to get worse. It's going to get more partisan I'm sorry to be the bearer of bad news--
VISER: Fact.
KEITH: --the fact. That's how this works and hypocrisy really doesn't have - we're going to see a lot of hypocrisy because that's what happens in impeachment.
KING: On the subject of hypocrisy or at least moving the goal post the White House said when Nancy Pelosi said we're going to have an impeachment inquiry but we're not going to have a full House floor of vote it's going to be done in these committees, the White House said then we're not cooperating.
You should follow how they did it in Nixon you should follow how they did it in Clinton. So for requirement they do that but the White House said if you don't bring it to the full House, we're not giving you witnesses, we're not giving you documents. Pat Cipollone on October 8th, the White House Council laid this out in a letter. I don't need to read it all that was essentially go away. Unless you have a full House vote, you don't get anything. We view it as illegitimate, now they're going to have a House vote, so you would think oh, okay, now the White House will cooperate right, nope.
The Press Secretary report a statement yesterday the resolution put forward by Speaker Pelosi confirms the House Democrats impeachment has been an illegitimate sham from the start as it lacked any proper authorization by a House vote. They're going to get the vote they wanted but it's clear they're laying the groundwork to say, still go away.
KEITH: Well, even when they put that letter out on October 8th they were asked, so does that mean if you get what you want, you'll cooperate? They're like, no, we're not saying that necessarily.
KIM: I mean if you thought that the White House would cooperate after a formal vote like this, I have a bridge to sell you somewhere. This has been part of the White House strategy all along far before the impeachment inquiry began when the Democratic House took control earlier this year and launched more than 20 some odd investigations into every corner of the Trump White House Administration as policies his family had a potential complex of interest. They have not been cooperating so this should be no surprise.
KING: Is there a nice speech with no cable television on the other side of that bridge. Up next, rest of the Republican Majority Leader Mitch McConnell says Congress cannot afford for Democrats to ignore other legislation as they, in his words, obsess over impeachment. This was the reaction of the Democratic Congresswoman Debbie Dingell.
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REP. DEBBIE DINGELL (D-MI): Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell has a lot of blame go on use it on television making that statement. (END VIDEO CLIP)
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[12:25:00]
KING: Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell is poking the Democrats today saying it's time to get some work done you knows things like funding the government. He's tossing in a little irony if that's the right word suggesting that if Democrats care so much about Ukraine which is of course central to the impeachment debate, they would allow a vote on a spending plan that includes money for Ukraine.
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MCCONNELL: Democrats have plenty of time and energy for their 3-year- old journey to impeach the President. But they can't get to yes on funding our service members. That's about as clear a statement of priorities that you can get around here. They want to impeach the President for delaying assistance to Ukraine. Well, they blocked funding for the program themselves. I'd say it's unbelievable, except that's exactly what's happening.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: You saw the smile. He liked his line. Democratic Leader Chuck Schumer says the dispute on that bill is over border wall money, not Ukraine or impeachment. But McConnell's poking is telling. He wants to say as little as possible about impeachment and he wants the Senate to get as much as possible done now because he knows the chamber will likely be paralyzed if the House passes articles of impeachment and sends them across the Capitol to the Senate for a trial.
CNN's Phil Mattingly Joins us now live from Capitol Hill. Phil, a big part of your job these days is translating the majority leader. Where is he going here?
PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, so there is a couple of things you need to keep in mind, at floor speech he also ripped House Democrats for the process they have in place but as you've seen over the course of last couple of weeks when it comes to the substance of what's been going on in the House Democratic investigation, he's not willing to weigh in.
Here is what is actually happening, when it comes to what he's talking about related to appropriations bills, or related to the process and the House, there's really two things at play here. One is the political. You could hear last night on Fox News with Laura Ingraham that people would like McConnell to do more. This is the red meat attacking the process to some degree.
There is also the legislative kind of leverage kind of that he's working for here. He's putting pressure on Democrats trying to get them in a room to make a deal on appropriations, to make a deal on government funding, to make a deal to actually move forward on the North American trade deal the President has been pushing forward so using that as a legislative piece of leverage as well.
But I also think always something to remember with Senate Majority Leader is that he's never trying to get out in front of his conference. The Republican conference right now in the United States Senate is largely keeping their powder dry and is often in different places on this when you talk to them privately.
