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Now: Mike Pence Aide On July 25 Ukraine Call Testifies; House Decides Against Subpoena For John Bolton; CNN: Donald Trump Wanted Bill Barr To Hold News Conference Clearing Him On Ukraine; Donald Trump Denies Reports He Asked Barr To Hold Ukraine News Conference; Sessions Expected To Launch Campaign For His Old Senate Seat. Aired 12-12:30p ET
Aired November 07, 2019 - 12:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
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JOHN KING, CNN HOST: Welcome to INSIDE POLITICS. I'm John King. Thank you for sharing your day with us. A crack inside the impeachment stonewall -- an aide to Vice President Pence who was central to the Ukraine policy honors a subpoena and he testifies on our Capitol Hill this hour.
Plus a Trump rebuke from his one time friend in France. Emmanuel Macron says the NATO alliance risks, "Brain death" because the United States he says shows signs of turning its back on Europe.
And Bernie Sanders looks to make a move. A new immigration plan out today and a clear strategy on health care. Keep the peace with Elizabeth Warren but poke Joe Biden.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Isn't the only winner of a spat between you and Elizabeth Warren over funding Medicare for all isn't the only winner of that Joe Biden?
SEN. BERNIE SANDERS (D-VT) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Well, what Joe has got to tell the American people, by the way, is how his plan is going to impact ordinary Americans.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: Back to the 2020 Democrats a bit later, but we begin the hour with the impeachment inquiry. Another damning transcript, another important witness and another tweet from the President making clear he will complain even when he gets what he asked for.
The transcript is from the witness who has a lead role in next week's public hearings. Bill Taylor, his testimony adds to the evidence that, yes, there was a Ukraine quid pro quo. The witness today is Jennifer Williams, the National Security Expert on loan to the Vice President staff who listened in on that July 25th call and was concerned about by what she heard. She did show up today after a subpoena from House investigators. We should note there was one important no-show today. Former National Security Adviser John Bolton did not come to the Capitol this morning, but sources close to Bolton tell "The Washington Post" he would show up. He would answer questions should the court direct him to comply with a congressional subpoena.
As per the tweet, the President this morning complaining about the inquiry going public. Remember last week the same President complaint it was unfair the witnesses were being interviewed in private. Let's get straight to CNN's Kaitlan Collins at the White House. Kaitlan, tell us how Jennifer Williams fits into the Ukraine saga?
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: So she is not a house hold name. So you can understand why people would ask, why is she testifying on Capitol Hill, but she may play a more important role than some of these other officials who have gone up there and that's because of the role that she occupies.
Now you're right, she is a State Department employee who is currently on loan to the Vice President's office. She technically reports to his National Security Adviser General Kellogg, but of course the Vice President's office and his senior staff plays a key role in selecting who it is that they take on to come and work in their offices in these positions.
Now Jennifer Williams is an interesting one because she was recently named, we did not know before, that she was in on that July call with the President and the Ukrainian President that of course at is central to all of this. Not only that where she on that call and we're told that she had concerns about that call, but the Vice President's office has said so far they are not familiar with her voicing any displeasure, but John that's something that we'll likely find out after she comes out from this testimony behind closed doors today, depending on what she's asked.
Another notable figure is that when the Vice President went to Poland to meet with the Ukrainian President, a trip that President Trump was supposed to go on but didn't because he stayed back in the United States to monitor hurricane coverage, Jennifer Williams was on that trip. There have been a lot of questions on what was said during that meeting with the Vice President and President Zelensky.
In just a few moments ago when Vice President Pence was asked about Jennifer Williams, if he has any concerns about her testifying, he didn't address her directly John, but he did say that this conversations with the Ukrainian leader were focused exclusively on getting rid of corruption in Ukraine.
We'll see what Jennifer Williams has to say and whether it's anything that sheds more light on how all of this unfolded.
KING: It will be interesting to see we hear when we see that transcript as we go forward. Kaitlan Collins, live at the White House, I appreciate it. With me in the studio to share their reporting and their insights, Seung Min Kim with "The Washington Post," Olivier Knox with "SiriusXM" Laura Barron-Lopez with "POLITICO" and Margaret Talev with "AXIOS".
So there are two questions here, by what to the Vice President know when did he know it? Was he part of any quid pro quo? But also the Vice President's team was central on all of this. What did they know about the President's conduct? So it's about Mike Pence but it might not just be about Mike Pence.
And to Kaitlan's point just we'll put a timeline, but at least a half a dozen key points in all of this with the Vice President was involved. We don't know exactly what happened in that involvement but he skipped the Ukraine President inauguration for a Trump campaign event in Florida.
The whistleblower alleges the President of the United States told them not to go, that he didn't want to send the high profile delegation. He had a Trump/Zelensky call to what Pence's key staffer were listening in on that. Pence had a copy of that Trump/Zelensky call transcript when he took an international trip and met with Zelensky.
He met with them in Poland and then he also spoke to him by phone. He has said, and actually let's just listen. Here's the Vice President last night on Fox Business. He was asked about his involvement. He says this.
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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So you never said, listen, if you want to get this nearly $400 million, you have got to do something on corruption.
MIKE PENCE, VICE PRESIDENT, UNITED STATES: Of course not. Other than to say that we wanted to support his efforts to deal with corruption in Ukraine.
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KING: Of course not, of course not other than to say, he uses the term generically "Corruption." If that's all he said, his hands presumably are clean, but the question is did he know? Did he know what Rudy Giuliani was doing? Did his staffers complaint to him after this phone call, sir do you understand what's happening here? That's how Jennifer Williams could be helpful today.
MARGARET TALEV, POLITICS AND WHITE HOUSE EDITOR, AXIOS: Yes, I mean, she could be interesting and she could be useful on a couple fronts. One is because she is a career Foreign Service Official. She did work briefly in the Bush Administration on the Homeland Security Department, I believe, and may have worked with the campaign, but she's not a "Politico," she's a foreign service officer.
And so her reputation, her allegiance, her legacy, her connections are on the professional front rather than political front. It's probably why she showed up to testify today. But also she is a fresh eyes, fresh face and fresh ears inside the administration and she was on that call. We don't know that much yet about Vice Pence's involvement in the transcript that we've seen released. There is a lot of emphasis on Pompeo, of course Rudy Giuliani, sometimes the President himself. But there's not as much about the Vice President's role in this. So any little bit that can fill in some of the gaps in that knowledge may be important to understanding the timeline and who was involved.
KING: She did show up today. We have a little more breaking news now on today's no-show. John Bolton, a higher profile, potential witness, he was of course the President's National Security Adviser. House investigators, we're told, they have decided against hitting Bolton with a subpoena. Let's go up to CNN's Manu Raju on Capitol Hill. Manu, does it make it then less likely he appears at all?
MANU RAJU, CNN SENIOR CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: It's possible that he may not appear at all. Because according to a statement that was provided by a House Intelligence Committee official that John Bolton had informed this committee that if they issued a subpoena, that his attorneys would take this to court and fight this out in court. And according to this official, they say that we have no interest in allowing the administration to play rope-a-dope with us in the courts for months.
They say they regret the decision for him not to come voluntarily, but that's significant because it shows that despite John Bolton appearing time and again in a number of witness depositions who say that John Bolton was concerned about the role of Rudy Giuliani by the President himself, by the push to investigate the President's rivals amid this aid that had been withheld for Ukraine but the committee may not ever speak to John Bolton and they will still continue forward with their impeachment inquiry.
What's very clear in the last several days that the recent steps to move for public hearings and not pursue these key witnesses is a sign that Democrats want to wrap up this impeachment inquiry in the coming weeks. They don't want to let this drag on for some time in court. Now the question is ultimately what will happen if the court ultimately sides with the Democrats?
There is a separate case involving testimony for Don McGahn, Former White House Counsel, who the House Judiciary Committee is trying to get to testify. Now if that court says that witnesses don't have absolute immunity and are required to testify, perhaps that could have an influence on John Bolton and John Bolton's Deputy Charles Kupperman who are both defying the House Intelligence Committee's request to testify. But at the moment John, Democrats are saying, they're not going to fight this in court, they're moving forward and they're going to raise concerns about John Bolton but perhaps not much more than that, John.
KING: Manu Raju on the Hill, I appreciate the breaking news. Let's bring the conversation which was interesting. Number one, you get the Democratic strategy. We don't want to drag this on, we understand the public pressure and we understand what bumping up against a campaign year, we want to do this as quickly and expeditiously as possible. But let me ask it this way is it possible that this posture could change when you get over to the Judiciary Committee if there actually are articles of impeachment? Or when you get to the Senate if there is actually is an impeachment trial in the sense that they believe that the Democrats believe they have Bolton's Deputy Fiona Hill, one of his deputies, who says he called Rudy Giuliani a hand grenade.
He said you should report this, if you think it was improper, you should report this to the White House Lawyer. So they have the fact testimony, my argument, though, is impeachment is a political argument? If you're trying to sway Republicans John Bolton is a well known established face on Fox News. If you're trying to sway Republicans if you are the Democrats, trying to sway Republicans out there, Trump voters, don't you want Bolton at the witness table at some point?
SEUNG MIN KIM, WHITE HOUSE REPORTER, THE WASHINGTON POST: I mean, in an ideal world, sure I mean, having Bolton in public testify in public would be a powerful argument for House Democrats. Unfortunately for them they don't live in that ideal world and the time is the biggest enemy.
I mean, clearly "The Washington Post" we - my colleagues though just reported that Bolton is willing to testify if the court clears his way to do so, but that's a pretty big if. We've seen how House Democrats not just in this impeachment inquiry investigation but through their oversight efforts they have won some key victories at the district and circuit court levels but it takes time and time is something that they don't have right now.
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KIM: It looks like at this point perhaps we see a House impeachment vote by the end of the year, that would put impeachment trial in January in the Senate, but to resolve this out legally could take months and that would bump clearly right into an election, and I think people on both sides believe this could be something that the voters should resolve at the end of the day.
OLIVIER KNOX, CHIEF WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT, SIRIUS XM: Yes, I would expect House Democrats, as this goes public, to say to House Republicans oh, you want to challenge the description as a drug deal? You want to challenge the description of Rudy Giuliani as a hand grenade? You want to challenge the portrayal of John Bolton's concerns rising to the point where he is directing his deputies to go report certain actions by the White House to the White House lawyers? You want to challenge those things? I could think of a way. Why don't you ask John Bolton come to testify?
KING: That would be the Democrat strategy, call in Rudy Giuliani, call in John Bolton, call in the Vice President, if you feel like those two at that way if the Democrats could pull it. It's an interesting challenge as we go. We'll continue to follow that.
If you have any questions about this impeachment process for me or anyone else at the table, them better than me, please tweet us using the hastag "Inside Politics". We may answer your questions at the close of the show or on our podcast. Up next, the President asked his Attorney General for a big favor but first, Republicans sharing the love at a judicial nomination event yesterday at the White House.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT, UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: We have a lot of great warriors in our party. Senator John Cornyn, I looked at your polls, nobody is beating you, John.
SEN. CHUCK GRASSLEY, (R-IA): The people of this ought to be complemented that we have a President that said he was going to run on a platform and he stands on that platform.
SEN. MITCH MCCONNELL, (R-KY): Mr. President this is one of the many ways you are helping to make America great again.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
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KING: President Trump is agitated today about reporting he pushed for his Attorney General to defend his actions in that now infamous July Ukraine call. A source telling CNN that the President asked his Attorney General William Barr to hold a news conference to declare that the President did nothing wrong on the call, which of course is now at the center of the impeachment inquiry.
It's quite clear that press conference never happened and we don't know exactly why? "The Washington Post" first to report this story and according to their reporting, the Attorney General refused the request President Trump repeatedly denying this story on Twitter today calling the post reporting "Totally untrue, made up and a con job".
CNN's Evan Perez joins our conversation. We know it is not totally made up from your reporting subsequent to this. Take us sort of inside the thinking here. Bill Barr has been kind to the President in controversial ways many times. Why not here?
EVAN PEREZ, CNN SENIOR JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Well, look, I think there is a limit to what even Bill Barr can do for the President, but let's just back up a little bit and point out that the President got almost everything he wanted. He got a statement from the Justice Department on the day that they released the transcript of the Ukraine call.
He got a public statement from the Justice Department saying that criminal prosecutors had looked at the transcript of the call and nothing else, pretty much, and decided that there was no crime there, that there was no criminal violation of campaign finance laws.
And so everything was done, you know, according to plan that day. And so he didn't get the press conference from Bill Barr, but he did get a very public statement from the Justice Department that said there is nothing to see here.
Obviously, though, since that time, it's been clear that prosecutors in New York had other ideas, that they are looking at Rudy Giuliani's conduct with regard to Ukraine, they have been looking at all of these issues that Rudy was doing, and certainly, you know, the fact that people in headquarters closed the books doesn't mean that New York can't reopen those books and take a wider look.
KING: That's an important point that, yes, he would take a lot of flak for it, yes, there could be leaks pointing at him if he did it, but Bill Barr, does he not have the authority to shut that down if he wanted to?
PEREZ: Sure, he does, but everyday indication we have is that he's essentially removing all hands from this. He's taking a hands-off approach because we're talking about the Southern District of New York, and it's clear, you know, the Attorney General's name came up on that call.
It is clear now that there is nothing that the Justice Department can do from the minute that Lev Parnas and Igor Fruman was arrested it is clear that there is not much that headquarters can do. And by the way the president's denial is really kind of an interesting one.
He is saying I never asked Bill Barr, but that's not what the reporting indicates is that he certainly wanted Bill Barr to do this and board got around to the Justice Department somehow. So he may not directly ask the Attorney General, but certainly that word got there.
KING: And on the fact basis you see Rudy Giuliani tweeting out his legal team. This is he views this clearly as very serious on the facts side, the investigation continues on the feds back to what the President's behavior we say this. We're going to get later in the program to a Former Attorney General and his latest moves.
We saw this throughout the Jeff Sessions era, the President trying to get the Justice Department to do things which is outside the lines of normal presidential separation of the Justice Department and the President's behavior, but here we go again.
LAURA BARRON-LOPEZ, NATIONAL POLITICAL REPORTER, POLITICO: And in the case of Jeff Sessions, he accused himself which we know upset the President, but it's not surprising that President Trump is telegraphing in some way, which is what the reporting suggested, to the DOJ that he would like a press conference, and so in that case, I mean, even though the President may deny it, there is no reason for us to take his word for it.
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KING: And so I just want to go through some of this, because Barr has been an - there are stronger words - figure since he took the job. He has launched an investigation at the President's request. This is something the President very much wants, the origins of the Mueller investigation. He had the DOJ memos defending White House decisions not to cooperate with the impeachment inquiry Fox News interview pushing back on criticism of him and his department.
As you mentioned, looking to clear Trump on any campaign finance law violations and he's not recusing himself from Ukraine related investigation. If he wants to be the President's backup, he's there for it. But he has distanced himself, had the department distanced itself from the White House after that Mick Mulvaney press conference that pointed figures toward justice.
You mentioned the investigations going on in New York of two Giuliani associates. And a prosecutor at the Rodger Stone trial which is underway, which I know was a holdover from the Mueller investigation. But again it's now being prosecuted by the Trump Justice Department. The prosecutor yesterday said this.
Rodger Stone lied he said because, "The truth looked bad for the Trump campaign and the truth looked bad for Donald Trump". So for all the criticism of Bill Barr, maybe it's because he doesn't want to touch this stuff because he knows how nuclear it could be. But the Barr Justice Department they're saying some pretty tough things about the President and his personal lawyer.
KNOX: Yes, the way in which they distance themselves from the call and something pushing on the call was really pretty remarkable. But yes, the President got what he wanted in terms of saying, well, we didn't see a criminal misdeed here, but boy, they have kept this as far as they possibly can from main justice. It's been pretty striking.
That said Bill Barr is also running around the world meeting with intelligence agents trying to discredit the Intelligence Community's findings that Russia interfered in the 2020 election and did so to benefit Donald Trump. So he is clearly willing to do quite a bit for this President.
KING: And we're still waiting on a big drop out of the Justice Department which is the IG report which all indications we've had several indications that it's coming soon. We just can't seem to define soon, right?
PEREZ: Right, we thought soon in July, so yes, I mean, we're thinking around Thanksgiving perhaps right after Thanksgiving is when that would come. And I think that's certainly a day that the President is looking forward to, because he believes that will help certainly support some of his arguments that this entire investigation was without cause, that he was railroaded, that he is the victim of essentially a hoax during the last three years.
KING: And what has been striking to me going back to the Mueller days and now can tinge in now, is how little we hear from Bill Barr on these issues. Maybe that's smart, but in this environment where his character and his credibility and his conduct is questioned so often, we hear so little. He does not think it's important. Unlike the President, who wants to be in the media and the social media every day, Bill Barr prefers--
TALEV: He has widely decided he doesn't want to be a public figure. Yes, but watching his actions is in this care more important than watching his words. There are some parallels to Mike Pence, although these are different stories.
But I've been really interested in the last several days to watch how some of the figures who are now getting drawn into this Ukraine probe and impeachment inquiry are trying to find the safest like the right distance to hold back, the right amount to engage publicly, because the closer you get to the center of the story, the hotter it gets.
You know, Barr is an interesting case because we don't hear from him that much, but we see the impacts of his actions and I think the President is embarrassed by the idea that it would be out there in the press, the idea that he wanted something and his Attorney General didn't give it to him. But Barr's decisions may actually have protected the President in this case. I'm not sure f President Trump really wanted Barr to go out and do that.
KING: Well, he wanted, but is it in his best interests? Again, we go back to what we'll talk about in just a minute. The last Attorney General took a lot of heat of the Former Attorney General who was a couple - between. Jeff Sessions poised for political comeback but will he have support or will he have the score of his old boss?
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KING: Today is proof that timing is everything in politics. Jeff Sessions. Sessions looking to become the comeback kid, or you might say that Senator. CNN is told he will file papers to run for his old Senate seat Alabama now held by Democrat Doug Jones. The filing deadline is tomorrow but CNN is told Sessions plan to submit that paper work today which just happens to be one year to the day that Sessions was forced out of his job as Attorney General.
Sessions will be joining a crowded Republican primary and risking the isle of the President who once called the AG appointment "His biggest mistake". CNN's Jeff Zeleny is in New Hampshire today for another big candidacy filing but he is also working the Sessions story. Jeff, what are you hearing about the timing here and the big question has he chatted with his former boss about the campaign?
JEFF ZELENY, CNN SENIOR WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: Well John, as far as we know, Jeff Sessions has not advised the White House or talked to President Trump about this at all, and that of course is not surprising. The two men are not exactly on speaking terms. You're right the timing of this is certainly interesting.
This is Jeff Sessions' choice to make this announcement later today, we're told. He's going to jump into that Republican primary. His future is in some degree in the President's hands but the reason I'm here in New Hampshire Vice President Mike Pence was just signing the official paperwork for the Trump/Pence campaigns to be on the New Hampshire ballot here.
And the Vice President was asked if he planned to jump in or campaign for his long-time friend Jeff Sessions. He said we will let the people of Alabama decide this race.
