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Senators Grill FBI Director Over Insurrection, Domestic Terror; Wray: "Not Aware" of Any Evidence of Widespread Voter Fraud. Aired 12:30-1p ET

Aired March 02, 2021 - 12:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[12:30:00] SEN. MAZIE HIRONO (D-HI): I hope that you agree that at a time like this it would be very important for high level law enforcement people like you and others to have briefed the public to limit the spread of misinformation about what happened and who was behind what happened, wouldn't you agree?

CHRISTOPHER WRAY, DIRECTOR, FBI: Certainly I agree it's important to prevent misinformation as much as we can consistent with our legal responsibilities.

HIRONO: And part of the misinformation that happened was that -- and you've testified that so far there is no evidence of fake Trump supporters committing or provoking violence during the January 6 riot on the Capitol. That's part of the misinformation that got out. Were you aware of these false claims?

WRAY: Well, certainly along the way we've seen a whole variety of claims from a variety of people about the investigation in to the January 6 attack, just like with a lot of other high profile attacks. Whether I can recall exactly when -- the first time I've heard that specific claim, I don't know for sure.

HIRONO: This was part of the kind of false information and narrative that got out, blaming other such as ANTIFA for what happened. So that is why I think it is really important for you and others like you to be out front (ph).

You've been asked some questions about hate crimes, and you acknowledged that there is a rise in hate crimes against the AAPI, the Asian-American Pacific Islander community. Wouldn't you agree that calling the COVID-19 the Kung Flu, or the China Virus adds to the kind of targeted hate crimes that we are seeing arise against the AAPI community?

WRAY: Well, I don't know that it's really my place as FBI director to start weighing in on rhetoric but I can assure you that that's not language that I would ever use, and hate crimes against Asian Americans and Pacific Islanders is something that we are concerned about, we take very seriously, we are investigating where we have facts sufficient to do that.

We're also engaged in a variety of forms of outreach to the public. I think we've done, you know, 60 plus training or liaison events with Asian American/Pacific Islander community since just March of last year. We've put out intelligence reports to our partners about hate crimes against that community; in particular, it's something we take very seriously.

HIRONO: I -- I commend you for working with I assume local and state -- state and local law enforcement entities as well as community advocacy groups to -- to deal with the rise in hate crimes against Asian Americans, and in fact, just a few weeks ago there were lethal attacks on -- there seems to be a targeting of senior Asians and so lethal attacks in San Francisco and in New York, and I think these are totally unprovoked attacks.

And so, I -- I -- I think that we need to continue to focus on what the community can do, and what law enforcement can do to make sure that these crimes are prosecuted as the hate crimes that they are. And I think it is also important for -- for leaders to not fan the flames by calling COVID-19 the China Virus or Kung Flu.

Do you also testify that you were asked some questions about the role of social media by these extremist groups, and you (ph) said that terrorism moves at the speed of social media? Senators Warner, Klobuchar, and I recently introduced the Safe Tech Act which would pull back Section 230 immunity from tech companies for things like civil rights violations and wrongful death suits.

Do you think that exposing these companies to civil liability would force them, basically, to take extremist content off of their platforms? Or to take these kinds of content more seriously, and do something about them?

WRAY: Well, Senator, I want to be careful not to get out ahead of the rest of the administration in weighing in on specific pieces (ph) of legislation but having said that, I think there are a few things I could say. You know, one is while the immunity under Section 230 has, obviously, helped the evolution of the social media industry, it's also allowed it to avoid a lot of the burdens and risks that other brick and mortar companies have had to face.

[12:35:00]

And it means that important decisions that affect many aspects of society that would normally be made by the people's elected representatives are now being made in corporate offices in the industry.

And so, while I can't comment on specific legislation, I certainly can tell you that I see the value, maybe it's the best way of putting it, of incentivizing online platforms to address both illicit content on their platforms, and to assist law enforcement in bringing to justice criminals who use those platforms to victimize Americans.

HIRONO: And then there is also the concern that as entities such as Facebook and Twitter do more to control, modify these -- these -- these kind of content and that I know this could encourage driving extremists to using crypto platforms like Telegram and Signal, so that's another area that we're going to need to address. I wanted to turn briefly to your testimony that identifies lone wolf actors as a concern for you. And I think that with regard to lone wolf actors we need a -- probably a whole of society approach. So what can we all do to deal with the problem of lone wolf extremists?

WRAY: So I appreciate the question. We do consider that, the lone actor, I've sort of stopped using the term wolf because I feel like it gives them too much credit. But the lone actors whether they're homegrown -

HIRONO: Lone actors.

WRAY: -- violent extremists or domestic violent extremists is a real threat because one of the -- A because it's so pervasive but B because unlike somebody who's working as part of a large group. Somebody acting alone has fewer people they're in contact with which means fewer dots to connect, et cetera. It makes it that much harder for us to get in front of.

What we desperately need is more and more situations where the members of the public who know that person, who see the transformation, who see things starting to change in a way that they know is different and has become much darker and more dangerous; those people to speak up to contact law enforcement, whoever they trust in law enforcement to alert people to the treat.

And the good news, if there is any good news in this, is that we are seeing that happen more and more in this country. We've had lots of people, as heartbreaking as it must be, turn in family members when they see this transformation because they know that having us or our partners intercede may not only prevent that person from committing an attack against an innocent American but also may in some instances result in that person being off ramped to get help as opposed to potentially being killed by law enforcement or incarcerated or something else.

So we need the people -- we always say if you see something, say something. And most people picture the abandoned backpack in a Greyhound Bus Terminal. Obviously we want people to see something and say something there. But we also need people if they see something about somebody to say something. And the more of that we can have and the more members of Congress as key voices in their communities and in your home states can encourage people to do that; that's one of the key weapons we have as a country to use your phrase, the whole of society, defense against this threat.

HIRONO: Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

DURBIN: Senator Cotton.

COTTON: Director Wray, welcome. First I want to say I was deeply saddened by the loss of Special Agents Dan Alfin and Laura Schwartzenberger and I want to extend condolences to their families and to the agents who worked with them and the entire bureau. My wife and I know many of your agents across the country and we're extremely grateful for the work they do to keep our communities safe. I want to turn to some of your written testimony. You say that the FBI assesses homegrown or homegrown violent extremists as the greatest most immediately international threat to the homeland. These extremists are U.S. based individuals located in and radicalized primarily in the U.S. who are not receiving individualized direction from global Jihad inspired foreign terrorist organizations but are inspired largely by ISIS and Al-Qaeda to commit violence.

So, what you're saying there, Director Wray, if I understand it correctly is that dangerous (ph) to the threat is from other kinds of extremists like racial supremacist groups or anarchist groups. The most dangerous threat we have in the country from extremism remains Jihadist, is that correct?

WRAY: Well the -- I think the key word there was international. I don't have the written statement for the record in front of me. But what I would say is we view -- maybe (ph) step back. What we view as the most dangerous threat to Americans today is largely lone actors, in some cases small cells, if you will.

[12:40:00]

Largely radicalized online, already here in the United States attacking soft targets using crude readily accessible weapons, motivated either by Jihadist inspirations or by a variety of domestic inspirations.

So we have the HVEs, the homegrown violent extremist which are the Jihadist inspired. And we have the DVEs, the domestic violent extremist who are inspired by domestic sources. That bucket, which have a lot in common with each other, is the greatest threat -- the greatest terrorism threat we face as a country.

COTTON: OK. I want to turn to another kind of potential terrorist threat. We've talked a lot here about domestic terrorism, obviously international terrorism remains a serious threat. And an important part of the federal government's counterterrorism work remains trying to prevent foreign terrorist from reaching our shore, is that correct?

WRAY: Yes.

COTTON: And part of the screening process is checking our own criminal record and terrorism databases. But it does rely heavily on foreign governments both providing us with data about criminal ties and also to document security practice so terrorists can't obtain fake IDs, is that correct?

WRAY: Certainly that's an important part of kind of hardening our homeland defense, if you will.

COTTON: And you predecessor testified to Congress in 2015 that without cooperation from those governments that the -- if the terrorist is not already in our own databases we could quote "Query our database until the cows come home but there will be nothing to show up" end quote unless foreign governments work with us. Is that still the case?

WRAY: Certainly we depend heavily on cooperation from foreign governments to make that kind of defense effective.

COTTON: Let's turn to a few of those foreign governments. Is it still the case that Syria and Iran are both nations that share little if any information with the United States about potential travelers or immigrants coming to our country?

WRAY: I will confess that I -- I'm not sure I know the answer sitting here today but I would be flabbergasted if the answer were anything other than yes it's still the case.

COTTON: Still the case that Syria and Iran -- I'm sorry, that Libya and Syria are both countries that lack effective control over significant parts of their territory and therefore cannot provide information for (ph) people coming from those (ph) parts of their country?

WRAY: I believe that to be the case.

COTTON: What about Myanmar also known as Burma where there was a military coup last week. Is it true that the United States now faces serious obstacles to vet individuals coming from Burma?

WRAY: I'm not sure I know the answer on Burma but I suspect the answer is the same.

COTTON: And finally in this rose (ph) gallery, what about North Korea? Is it true that North Korea remains uncooperative in providing us information about North Korean nationals that might try to come to the United States?

WRAY: I have rarely heard North Korea come up in the context of cooperativeness

COTTON: Thank you. I just want to note before we close on this topic that all of those nations; Syria, Iran, Libya, Burma and North Korea were among the nations from which President Biden lifted travel restriction by executive order on his very first day in office without any plan in place to improve security for those travel situations. Each of them represents a real threat to the United States.

I want to turn to another king of threat we face which is crime and gang violence in particular. Unfortunately both drug trafficking and violent crime are now on the rise in the United States. Are street gangs driving a significant part of violent crime on streets across America?

WRAY: Well certainly when I go around and I've talked with state and local law enforcement in all 50 states I think the number one issue you would hear about from maybe all of them is violent crime. What drives it in each city, state, town is different. But it's not just the national gangs. You know the MS-13s, the 18th Street gangs, et cetera. A lot of times it's the neighborhood gangs that are really top of mind when you talk to Chiefs and Sheriffs around this country.

COTTON: And those gangs of whatever type, they often use violent crime as a way to expand their territory and exert more control so then they can use money making enterprises like drug trafficking or prostitution, property crimes like robbery. Is that --

WRAY: Yes. Yes.

COTTON: So let's talk about MS13, since you raised it. MS13 is gaining notoriety for some particularly brutal crimes across the country in recent years and they continue to expand their influence in the United States, is that right?

WRAY: Well, I know we've made significant strides against MS13 over the last 18 months or so but it is a -- it is a very significant gang threat. And the brutality, the savagery and the level of kind of organization that exist there is -- is something that has to be taken extremely seriously.

COTTON: And it remains primarily a Central American and especially an El Salvadoran gang, is that correct?

WRAY: Well, certainly from that -- from the triangle -- the so called triangle, but yes, El Salvador is one place from which a lot of them come.

COTTON: So they don't exactly handout membership cards I'm sure or have a membership direct -- directory unless they're named by another gang member you still used methods like gang tattoos to identify who belongs to MS13?

[12:45:00]

WRAY: That would be one piece of information that would be relevant; we're obviously talking to human sources, witnesses' informants collecting information from partners, et cetera.

COTTON: And then I know that your Safe Streets Task Forces and National Gang Intelligence Center and other units often work together with the Department of Homeland Security and with state and local law enforcement to find and to prosecute and deport these gang members.

In your professional opinion today, is immigrations and customs enforcement deporting too many or too few MS13 gang members?

WRAY: Well, I don't know that I've tracked the deportation rate related to MS13 members. When we come across MS13 members in this country, our focus has been on -- on locking them up and putting them in federal prison as much as we can, which is where we like to have them.

In addition to the units that you listed off I think correctly, I would also cite our tag -- our transnational group which is a task force that we have in El Salvador because we actually have pretty effective results with U.S. law enforcement working with El Salvador law enforcement and to a somewhat lesser extent the other two countries in the triangle to take down some of the MS13 members in their home country as well.

So it's the two pieces together. So I can't say sitting here right now anything about the immigration posture. But certainly when we find MS13 gang members here, we want to put them in orange jumpsuits where they get to spend a lot of time in our prisons.

COTTON: Thank you. Well, when it comes to MS13 it won't surprise you to know that I support the lock them up police but I also support the deport them policy.

BOOKER: Thank you, Senator Cotton. Director Wray, hello. I know it's been a long day and I appreciate you. You're on the very tail end of the questioners so I appreciate your endurance.

I first just want to associate myself with maybe not the heat that you received from Senator Whitehouse but definitely the spirit of what he was talking about. And I appreciate your commitment to meet his concerns, which are concerns I've heard on both sides of the aisle. It's very hard to play our role, our constitutionally mandated role if we don't have the information to do the oversight of your agency.

So I do appreciate your commitments. I also want to join what is, I think as you've seen, a really bipartisan condolences for the loss of Daniel Alfin and Laura Schwartzenberger. That is the greatest sacrificing one can make for this nation, which is to die in the line of duty in protecting others.

I'm aware that there are other officers that were injured -- other agents that were injured. I hope they're recovering well.

WRAY: They are -- they are. I had the opportunity the morning after the shooting to go down not just to meet with Laura and Dan's families but also to visit the hospital. And happily I think the four injured agents should make a full recovery.

BOOKER: Well, would you please express from the entire committee not only our condolences to the families but a robust concern for their recovery and their well being and should they need anything you obviously have allies here in their well being.

WRAY: Thank you, Senator.

BOOKER: I -- I -- you and I've had -- one of my -- a treasured conversation frankly to have the -- you showed me the honor of coming to visit me before you were -- sat with me in my office before you -- you -- you stepped into that job. And I really appreciated our conversation about the challenges we still have in this country around racial issues.

And the urgency for the FBI, which has abused its power before whether it's investigations of Martin Luther King or other ways to really set an example for the largest driver in many ways as we pledge allegiance to this flag with this driver towards being a just nation.

I just want to ask you though about your team; we know that diverse teams are better. Everybody from Harvard business school to every top business consulting agency has shown study after study that diverse teams are stronger teams but especially ones in law enforcement to have such a mandate that you have.

Having diversity is really important. And so I guess my first question is is how diverse is the FBI's workforce now in terms of gender, religious, and racial diversity?

WRAY: So, Senator, this is a topic that as you may recall from our -- our prior visit is very important to me personally and something I've tried to make as a priority. We're addressing it in a variety of ways.

[12:50:00]

But in terms of results there is -- I guess I would characterize it as cautiously optimistic. So on the racial diversity front our special agent class has been more diverse with each year over the past few years, in each case more certainly than the diversity percentage of the workforce that exists.

And this year, which I think is a bright spot, the percentage -- the racial diversity of our applicant pool is much higher than it was in years passed. On gender, much the same. Applications -- the diversity of applications is up significantly. The diversity -- gender diversity of our Quantico classes is up.

We've set -- I've set aggressive targets for our field offices and those targets, for the most part, being exceeded. So we're doing a number of things to try to address the issue. We have what we call diversity agent recruitment events, which were easier to do pre-COVID. But that -- you know that a lot of times I would go to in different parts of the country myself and speak at.

We have a very encouraging project we've started with 300 entertainment that's focused on historically black colleges and universities and trying to improve our recruiting pipeline there.

BOOKER: And can I -- can I maybe just ask you, could you share that data with the committee of the progress that you're making?

WRAY: Sure. I think -- I think there's definitely information we could provide separately.

BOOKER: And then your leadership team, can you provide the diversity of the -- of the leadership team that you have around you?

WRAY: Sure. I will -- I will say yes is the answer. But I will say that on that front I've recently appointed two -- you know we have -- I'm not sure how much you may remember about our structure but we have at the very top of the FBI six EADs, executive assistant directors, each one of them is over a branch that has multiple divisions.

So, just over the last couple of months as people retire, I've replaced one of the EADs with an Asian American woman who oversees our human resources branch, and one of the other of these six EADs with an African American male who oversees our intelligence branch, which includes not just our entire intelligence function but our -- our private sector engagement, and our law enforcement partner engagement as well.

I also appointed the first...

BOOKER: ...I want to honor... WRAY: Yes.

BOOKER: ...honor the time here. I know...

WRAY: OK.

BOOKER: ...I know you'll be available to discuss...

WRAY: Yes.

BOOKER: ...that more and (inaudible) information. In the -- in the minute or so I have left, I'd really -- I think a lot of the questioning has been very illustrative of a lot of the challenges that we face, and I appreciate that from members of both sides of the -- of the dais (ph) here.

I -- I just wanted to drill into something, we've talked about the extremist groups that were at the Capitol, we've talked about many others but as I've seen interviews of folks, there were many people that were just saying I'm here because President Trump, now former President Trump, wanted us here.

And it seemed that this lie that was told over and over again that many people felt like their -- that their government had betrayed them, that the courts, and after court case after court case that Republican official after Republican official were all just dead wrong, really believed in the lie, and it felt like they were left with no choice but to try to stop the peaceful transfer of power.

And, so I guess I just ask to begin with is that Attorney General Barr said that he had, quote, "not seen fraud on a scale that could have effected a different outcome in the election." Do you agree with Attorney General Barr's statement that there is absolutely no evidence of voter fraud that could have changed the outcome of the 2020 Presidential Election?

WRAY: I agree with Attorney General Barr.

BOOKER: And to be crystal clear on this, as FBI director who is -- that these would be federal crimes, you're aware of no evidence of widespread voter fraud in the 2020 Presidential Election, correct?

WRAY: We are not aware of any widespread evidence of voter fraud, much less that would have affected the outcome in the Presidential Election.

BOOKER: All right. Well, I have great respect for Senator Kennedy, and I see him as a friend, I'm not going to abuse the incredible power that Dick Durbin has given me right now. Although power is going to my head but I'm going to police myself and defer to the good Senator Kennedy.

KENNEDY: Thank you. Mr. Chairman.

BOOKER: I didn't hear you, did you call me...

KENNEDY: I called you, Mr. Chairman.

BOOKER: Thank you, sir. Thank you, sir, that sounds very good.

KENNEDY: Thank you again, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Director, I've listened from my office to your testimony today. Tell me who had the authority to call out the National Guard on January 6th.

WRAY: My understanding -- well, my understanding is that the decisions to call out the National Guard in one sense are the responsibility of the Secretary of Defense but in another sense, it would have to be...

[12:55:00]

KENNEDY: Mr. Director, I'm sorry...

WRAY: Yes.

KENNEDY: ...to interrupt you but I think we can agree that the FBI had credible information that there was likely to be violence on January 6th. Can we agree on that?

WRAY: Well, I don't know that we had assessed its credibility. We certainly had information that was concerning about the potential for violence in connection with the January 6th events. And as we've discussed here this morning...

KENNEDY: Right, I...

WRAY: ...one piece of information that was most specific, that I'm aware of, was passed, you know, quite quickly...

KENNEDY: Well, based on that information, and I'm sorry to interrupt, but we just keep nibbling at the edges, and dancing around the issue. And I understand, I'm not asking to throw anybody under the bus, Chris, and I -- I get it. But we need to find out what happened. Now, if -- if -- if you were King for a day, based on the information that you had, maybe not at the time, but later on, would you have called out the FBI, I mean the -- the National Guard?

WRAY: You know, Senator, I -- as you said, I really want to be careful not to be armchair quarterbacking others. I think the National Guard we have seen can play a very important role in crowd control...

KENNEDY: Excuse me for interrupting, well, I sure -- I'm not trying to be rude but my time's limited. Well, who made the call not to, based on your information, who made the call not to call out the FBI? Whether they should have or shouldn't.

WRAY: Not to call the FBI?

KENNEDY: I'm sorry, I'm tired, the National Guard.

WRAY: Well, I would defer to others who were more involved in that discussion but from what I have heard, what I have read, my understanding is that at one stage of the process the local government was of the view that it did not need the National Guard's assistance.

KENNEDY: What do you mean by the local government? The mayor?

WRAY: Yes.

KENNEDY: So, the mayor -- the mayor didn't call out the National Guard?

WRAY: At the -- at the beginning.

KENNEDY: What do you mean by the beginning?

WRAY: Well, you know, in the day or two leading up to the 6th.

KENNEDY: OK.

WRAY: Then as to exactly how it played out on the 6th itself, I'm not sure...

KENNEDY: I understand but I'm -- I mean, clearly our people were overrun by -- by the nut jobs. So, we're making progress here, OK. So, the mayor of the city government decided not to call out the FBI -- of the National Guard ahead of time? What about the house sergeant at arms?

WRAY: I don't know what role the house sergeant at arms played with respect to the National Guard.

KENNEDY: OK. How about the senate sergeant?

WRAY: Same answer.

KENNEDY: OK. How about the Capitol Police, the chief of Capitol Police? Did the chief of Capitol Police make the call not to call out the National Guard?

WRAY: I don't know the answer to that, my understanding is that the law enforcement officials here with responsibility over the Capitol that there were varying -- differing views about whether or not the National Guard was appropriate, and when at what level but all I really know on that is what I've -- same thing you've seen, you know, in the press coverage of -- of the events.

KENNEDY: OK. That's enough on that.

I've listened to your comments about diversity and I thank you for your -- for your good work there. I think any fair-minded person has to conclude that -- that diversity is a strength, not a weakness. But this subject comes up a lot, and I think it's going to come up a lot again. And -- and that's not a criticism, that's just a -- an observation. Do you believe that the FBI is a systemically racist institution?

WRAY: No. Now having said that, I do believe the FBI needs to be more diverse and more inclusive than it is, and that we need to work a lot harder at that, and we're trying to work a lot harder on that. KENNEDY: Do -- do you believe that the FBI is a systemic -- systemically sexist or misogynistic institution?

WRAY: Again, that's not the way I would describe the FBI that I know and see every day. But, again it's a place where we need to be more diverse and inclusive, and we need to work harder at that, and we are working harder at that, and we've got progress that we still need to make to at least to be satisfactory by my standards.

KENNEDY: Fair enough. Mr. Director, have you ever been to Hong Kong?

WRAY: No.

KENNEDY: Wonderful place, wonderful people. The Chinese Communist Party is destroying it.

[13:00:00]