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Continuing Coverage Of The Derek Chauvin Trial; CDC: Fully Vaccinated People Can Resume Travel At Low Risk; Testimony Resumes In Derek Chauvin Murder Trial; Defense Cross-Examine Police Homicide Officer. Aired 12-12.30p ET
Aired April 02, 2021 - 12:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[12:00:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
JOHN KING, CNN HOST: Hello to our viewers in the United States and around the world and welcome to Inside politics. I'm John King in Washington. It is a very consequential busy Friday news day. Right now we're in a break. This is the fifth day of witness testimony in the Derek Chauvin trial in Minneapolis.
Again, we're in a break now for about 10 more minutes after some very significant law enforcement testimony in that trial this morning. Remember it is a former police officer on trial for the death of George Floyd.
Two police officers taking the stand this morning including the Minneapolis Police Department's senior most officer, its Chief Homicide Detective Richard Zimmerman testify about department policy repeatedly saying that what happened on the scene in his view was inconsistent with the training police officers routinely receive about how to treat suspects in their custody.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If somebody who was handcuffed, becomes less combative does that change the amount of force that an officer is to use under policy?
LT. RICHARD ZIMMERMAN, HOMICIDE DETECTIVE, MINNEAPOLIS POLICE: Yes. If they are not a threat to you at that point, you try to you know, to help them so that they're not as upset.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: Zimmerman also testifying that offices are trained not to kneel on someone's neck unless it is absolutely necessary. Because he testified the offices are trained, they are told kneeling on someone's neck can kill them. More on that dramatic testimony ahead and again, we'll take you back to the trial when it resumes momentarily.
Other big news today though blockbuster economic news, the economy adding nearly a million new jobs last month. President Biden says it is proof help us here but he says more is necessary. Also brand new CDC guidelines that a quite important as you think
about maybe spring break or summer vacation the CDC says individuals who have been fully vaccinated against COVID-19 the government now says for the first time it is safe for those Americans to travel both domestically and internationally as long as even though they're vaccinated they continue to follow health and safety protocols.
Let's start our coverage of that big announcement with CNN's Pete Muntean. He is at Washington's Reagan National Airport. Pete this is a big deal. A lot of Americans especially as more Americans get vaccinated, looking for government guidance, what is safe and what is not safe for me to do?
PETE MUNTEAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, as CDC is telling people who are fully vaccinated that they can travel with low risk of themselves but there is a big asterisk here, John, they're telling those travelers they can travel but they should still avoid travel if they can.
It is a huge shift, though something that was notably absent from the most recent CDC guidance on what vaccinated people can do. This says that domestic travelers do not need to get tested before and after their trip do not need to quarantine before and after their trip.
International travelers still need to show proof of a negative Coronavirus tests to their airline before they come back to the U.S. Still a lot of caution here from the CDC it is simply telling people if they are going to travel to be smart about it. They still need to wear federally mandated masks on board planes and at terminals still need to socially distance.
This does not mean the pandemic is over. But this is a huge development and a huge win for major airlines. Travel numbers are already up and they weren't even before this new guidance came out 22 straight days of more than a million people passing through security at America's airports.
1.56 million People just yesterday alone, that almost tied the TSA record of the pandemic set only back on Sunday when 1.5 7 million people flew. Commercial airlines cannot wait for people to come back. They've been clobbered by the pandemic.
American Airlines says bookings are now at 90 percent of pre pandemic levels and United Airlines just announced that it is able to hire pilots for the first time in more than a year. So it could be a big consequence here, John, for a real recovery for the struggling industry, especially with this new CDC guidance.
KING: Pete Muntean, grateful for the insights on this important development. I want to take you now live back to Minneapolis the testimony of Lieutenant Zimmerman resuming.
MATTHEW FRANK, PROSECUTOR: --of that incident?
ZIMMERMAN: Yes.
FRANK: And you recall what that video where you saw it?
ZIMMERMAN: Yes.
FRANK: And was it the - Frazier video?
ZIMMERMAN: Yes.
FRANK: Did you watch that video in its entirety?
ZIMMERMAN: Yes, I did.
FRANK: And since then, have you had an opportunity to watch other video of the incident?
ZIMMERMAN: Yes.
FRANK: And specifically have you watched body worn camera video of the incident from the involved officers?
ZIMMERMAN: Yes.
[12:05:00]
FRANK: And based on that and your years of training and experience with the Minneapolis Police Department you saw officer, then Officer Chauvin with his knee on Mr. Floyd's neck, correct?
ZIMMERMAN: Yes.
FRANK: Would you call what you saw there a use of force?
ZIMMERMAN: Yes.
FRANK: And did that use of force continue until the ambulance arrived?
ZIMMERMAN: Yes, it did.
FRANK: Was there any change in the level of force being used until the ambulance arrived?
ZIMMERMAN: No.
FRANK: And what do you think about that use of force during that time period?
ZIMMERMAN: I'm sorry.
FRANK: What do you think about that use of force during that time period?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A little bit, could you look limited to the timeframe?
FRANK: Right. OK. So based on your review of the body worn camera videos of the incident?
ZIMMERMAN: Yes.
FRANK: And directing your attention to that moment when Mr. Floyd is placed on the ground?
ZIMMERMAN: Yes.
FRANK: What is your, you know, your view of that use of force during that time period?
ZIMMERMAN: Totally unnecessary.
FRANK: What do you mean?
ZIMMERMAN: Well, first of all, pulling him down to the ground face down, and putting your knee on a neck for that amount of time it's just uncalled for. I saw no reason why the officers felt they were in danger, if that's what they felt. And that's what they would have to feel to be able to use that kind of force.
FRANK: So in your opinion, should that restraint have stopped once he was handcuffed and prone on the ground?
ZIMMERMAN: Absolutely.
FRANK: And I should add to that question, then, also that it appeared he had stopped resisting.
ZIMMERMAN: I'm sorry.
FRANK: And appeared that he had stopped putting up any resistance.
ZIMMERMAN: Absolutely. I would stop.
FRANK: I have nothing further.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I may just have a moment your honor.
ERIC NELSON, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Good. Good morning, Lieutenant Zimmerman.
ZIMMERMAN: Good morning.
NELSON: Thank you for being here today.
ZIMMERMAN: You're welcome.
NELSON: So you testified that you have been a Minneapolis Police Officer since June 5th 1985, correct?
ZIMMERMAN: 1985, yes.
NELSON: And prior to that you were with another agency?
ZIMMERMAN: Yes.
NELSON: And when you initially came on to the Minneapolis Police Department, you were a Patrol Officer, correct?
ZIMMERMAN: Yes.
NELSON: And you were a patrol officer from 1985 to approximately 1993 when you took the sergeant's exam and were promoted?
ZIMMERMAN: Yes.
NELSON: And so it's fair to say that since 1993, so 27, 28 years, you've not been on patrol in the City of Minneapolis?
ZIMMERMAN: Correct.
NELSON: Your assignments have been investigative in nature, correct?
ZIMMERMAN: Yes.
NELSON: And generally speaking, an investigative role is more of a follow up type role, right?
ZIMMERMAN: Yes.
NELSON: So an incident occurs on the street it gets assigned to a detective. And then your job is to investigate the circumstances of that incident, right?
ZIMMERMAN: Yes.
NELSON: And so it's fair to say that since 1993, you've not other than perhaps for ceremonial reasons. You've not worn a uniform on a daily basis?
ZIMMERMAN: Well, I don't know if I would call it ceremonial. Well, I used to wear a uniform.
NELSON: You have to wear a uniform from time to time but your daily role as a plainclothes clothed police officer, correct?
ZIMMERMAN: Yes.
NELSON: And you're not out patrolling the streets, making arrests, things of that nature?
ZIMMERMAN: No.
NELSON: All right. And it's fair to say then that you're experienced with the use of force of late has been primarily through training?
ZIMMERMAN: What?
NELSON: Your training?
ZIMMERMAN: Yes.
NELSON: All right. Meaning you're not out actively other than perhaps arresting a homicide suspect. [12:10:00]
NELSON: You're not out actively patrolling and arresting people for lesser, less serious offenses?
ZIMMERMAN: No.
NELSON: And so you describe the use of force continuum as including mere presence being a type of the use of force, right?
ZIMMERMAN: Yes.
NELSON: And so when you arrive on scene as a Lieutenant in the Homicide Unit, that is a use of force, right?
ZIMMERMAN: If people know I'm a Lieutenant, yes.
NELSON: Or if they know you're a police officer, perhaps. And then you've described like soft techniques, like escort holds things of that nature, right?
ZIMMERMAN: Yes.
NELSON: And I'm assuming that in the last well, since 1993, and you are promoted to sergeant, you've handcuffed some people in that timeframe, right?
ZIMMERMAN: I have.
NELSON: When's the last time you got into a physical fight with a person?
ZIMMERMAN: About in 2018?
NELSON: OK. So it's been a couple of years since you've been in a physical fight with a person?
ZIMMERMAN: Yes.
NELSON: All right. And so you would agree that the use of force as an investigator is or the higher levels of force as an investigator is less likely than a patrol officer?
ZIMMERMAN: I'm sorry; I don't understand your question.
NELSON: I'll rephrase it. The frequency with which you have to use higher levels of force as an investigator doesn't happen all that often, right?
ZIMMERMAN: Correct.
NELSON: And so your experience, generally as a use of force, or involving the use of force is primarily in this annual what's called defensive tactics training, right?
ZIMMERMAN: Yes. NELSON: And the defensive tactics training is one of the requirements you need to use or to complete in order to maintain your license as a police officer, right?
ZIMMERMAN: Yes.
NELSON: And you would agree that, or I'm presuming that since 1985, until the present day, tactics have changed as a police officer.
ZIMMERMAN: Some tactics have changed, yes.
NELSON: Right. And it's fair to say that you are not a trainer in the Minneapolis Police Academy relevant to the use of force, correct?
ZIMMERMAN: That's correct.
NELSON: You do not teach other police officers' defensive tactics.
ZIMMERMAN: No, I don't.
NELSON: You - you would agree, however, that roughly 10 years ago, the Minneapolis Police Department kind of moved away from trying to hit people to control them and started using body weight to try to control people?
ZIMMERMAN: I don't think I would agree with that.
NELSON: OK. So you think that I mean, within the arsenal, so to speak of a police officer? It's as common to punch or strike someone in the use of force as it is to just use what are called takedown moves or bodyweight guns.
ZIMMERMAN: Yes.
NELSON: OK. And that's been throughout your entirety of your career.
ZIMMERMAN: Yes.
NELSON: OK. And so, and you're basing that again, on your experience as just going through the defensive tactics requirements?
ZIMMERMAN: Right.
NELSON: And again, as a Lieutenant and the number one senior officer in the Minneapolis Police Department, I'm presuming that your understanding of the use of force involves the Minneapolis Police Department policies on the use of force, right?
ZIMMERMAN: Yes.
NELSON: And the Minneapolis Police Department policies are designed, at least based on your understanding to address the legal requirements for the use of force.
ZIMMERMAN: Yes.
NELSON: And so there are factors correct to determine whether or not a use of force is proportional, reasonable things of that nature, right?
ZIMMERMAN: Correct.
NELSON: And what we look at in any particular cases, the totality of the circumstances, agreed?
ZIMMERMAN: Yes.
NELSON: So there is lots of different information that a police officer has to use in order to determine the level of force to be used under which circumstances?
ZIMMERMAN: Yes.
NELSON: Agreed?
ZIMMERMAN: Yes.
NELSON: Now, in terms of the Minneapolis Police Department, are you familiar with the Minneapolis Police Department's critical thinking or critical decision making model?
ZIMMERMAN: Yes.
[12:15:00]
NELSON: And you would agree I'm assuming again based on a long career, that an officer is constantly taking in new information and that information will affect the decisions he or she makes, right?
ZIMMERMAN: That's correct.
NELSON: And would you also agree that the training that you received initially as a police officer is probably a lot different than the academy now?
ZIMMERMAN: Yes.
NELSON: Obviously, the available tools that officers have are a lot different today than they were in, you know, 85, 90 and 95?
ZIMMERMAN: Yes.
NELSON: Body cameras, they didn't exist when you first became a police officer?
ZIMMERMAN: That's correct.
NELSON: Tasers were not a thing, either, right?
ZIMMERMAN: No.
NELSON: You carried a gun and some handcuffs and kind of old school cop, right?
ZIMMERMAN: Yes. NELSON: Now, in terms of the decision making, the decision making of a police officer, would you agree that there are certain pieces of information that that officer has that affect his or her decisions on the use of force?
ZIMMERMAN: Yes.
NELSON: And some of those - some of that information is very immediate, kind of low level information, agreed?
ZIMMERMAN: Yes.
NELSON: So for example, what just happened with this particular suspect, right?
ZIMMERMAN: Yes.
NELSON: Is this suspect under the influence of a controlled substance? Or is he sober?
ZIMMERMAN: Yes.
NELSON: Right. What are you looking at in that moment through your own eyes, right?
ZIMMERMAN: Yes.
NELSON: That's the officers' experience in any situation, right?
ZIMMERMAN: Right.
NELSON: You look at other things that may be hazards or threats in the immediate vicinity, correct?
ZIMMERMAN: Yes.
NELSON: So you're going to assess, are there people watching? Are there people videotaping? Are those people happy or angry, et cetera, right?
ZIMMERMAN: Yes.
NELSON: You're going to look at what we would refer to as seen security, right?
ZIMMERMAN: Yes.
NELSON: You have a responsibility as a police officer for your partners who may be close to you, right?
ZIMMERMAN: Yes.
NELSON: You have a responsibility as a police officer for all of the people in the immediate area, right?
ZIMMERMAN: Yes. NELSON: And so scene security is kind of trying to keep it as tight as possible and keep everybody in the area safe, agreed?
ZIMMERMAN: That's correct everybody.
NELSON: In turn, you were asked a series of questions about your - an officers' medical responsibilities.
ZIMMERMAN: I'm sorry.
NELSON: I said do - you were asked a series of questions about your medical training and an officers' medical - what they're supposed to do?
ZIMMERMAN: Right. Yes.
NELSON: And even in the assessment of a medical emergency, there are many factors that come into that assessment, correct?
ZIMMERMAN: Yes.
NELSON: To your knowledge, Minneapolis Police Officers are sort of or they're trained medically at a fairly low level. They're not paramedics, doctors, et cetera?
ZIMMERMAN: That's correct.
NELSON: You're a first responder.
ZIMMERMAN: Yes.
NELSON: Basically, you're taught how to apply tourniquets, patches for gunshots stop bleeding, basic CPR and resuscitative efforts, right?
ZIMMERMAN: That's correct.
NELSON: A police officers' job primarily is to keep the scene safe, agreed?
ZIMMERMAN: I'm sorry.
NELSON: A police officers' responsibility is to keep the scene secure and safe. Agreed?
ZIMMERMAN: Yes.
NELSON: Minneapolis police policy requires the involvement of a higher level of medical intervention if the circumstances dictate, correct?
ZIMMERMAN: Yes.
NELSON: And an officer is required if someone is having a medical emergency to take what steps are there able to reasonably in the moment, right?
ZIMMERMAN: Yes. NELSON: And that would include potentially calling EMS?
ZIMMERMAN: That's correct.
NELSON: But then so you've got all of these immediate factors, right, that come into play, but then you can kind of widen that lens a little bit. And you can there are some other factors that come into play in terms of the use of force, again, based on your training and experience.
ZIMMERMAN: Yes.
NELSON: Such as, what do we know about the location generally, right?
ZIMMERMAN: Yes.
NELSON: Is this a field in the middle of the woods or is this a higher crime area, right?
ZIMMERMAN: Yes.
NELSON: An officer is evaluating that as a process as a part of the process involved the use of force agreed?
ZIMMERMAN: Yes.
NELSON: You will look at other things such as tactical advantages or disadvantages, agreed?
[12:20:00]
ZIMMERMAN: Yes
NELSON: So if you are - if you are not able to get what's called concealment or cover that becomes a question, right?
ZIMMERMAN: In what?
NELSON: Well, in a use of force, you're examining the surrounding area, right to see if something happens can I conceal and cover, right?
ZIMMERMAN: Yes.
NELSON: You also, in addition to the scene security, you need to deal with securing the scene, which is different than scene security, agreed?
ZIMMERMAN: Yes.
NELSON: Scene security is maintaining the safety of everyone around including yourself and your partners, right?
ZIMMERMAN: Yes.
NELSON: Securing the scene is making sure that the scene itself is preserved and kept tight, right?
ZIMMERMAN: Correct. Yes.
NELSON: And in fact, a police officers' responsibility, and part of the use of force determination is to prevent or avoid the use of force against other people agreed?
ZIMMERMAN: Yes, absolutely.
NELSON: So if you have to use force against one person to avoid using force against others, that's a factor that an officer should consider, agreed?
ZIMMERMAN: I don't know if I would agree with that.
NELSON: OK. Again, within the training department, most people who are - it's their jobs to do that they may be better and to answer those questions.
ZIMMERMAN: Yes.
NELSON: And then even from there, you can widen the lens even further and an officer will look at his training, right?
ZIMMERMAN: Yes.
NELSON: What he is trained to do or not to do, right?
ZIMMERMAN: Yes.
NELSON: He will look and take into experience or she - he or she will take into account his or her own experience from their past career. Agreed?
ZIMMERMAN: Yes.
NELSON: So things like fighting with someone and what's the probability or possibility that that person is going to continue fighting with you in the future, right, even after you have them some dude?
ZIMMERMAN: I don't know. I don't think I can agree to that totally. But, I understand what you're saying.
NELSON: There are circumstances where after a person is rendered unconscious, and then you perform, you revive that person, that they are more combative than they were initially.
ZIMMERMAN: Yes.
NELSON: And again, in terms of your own past experience, an officers' on past experiences, there can take that into consideration as well?
ZIMMERMAN: Sure.
NELSON: Now, you testified that you were never - you have never been trained as a Minneapolis Police Officer to use a knee on the neck of a suspect?
ZIMMERMAN: That's correct.
NELSON: You would agree, however, that in a fight for your life, generally speaking, in a fight for your life, you as an officer are allowed to use whatever force is reasonable and necessary, correct?
ZIMMERMAN: Yes.
NELSON: And that can even involve improvisation agreed?
ZIMMERMAN: Yes.
NELSON: Minneapolis Police Department policy allows a police officer to use whatever means or net are available to him to protect himself and others, right?
ZIMMERMAN: Yes.
NELSON: So if there's a paint tan sitting on the table, and someone is attacking, you can use that paint can as a weapon?
ZIMMERMAN: Yes.
NELSON: And in fact, you have been trained in the prone handcuffing techniques, correct?
ZIMMERMAN: Yes.
NELSON: And it's your testimony that Minneapolis Police Department has never ever trained anyone to put their knee across the shoulder and to the base of the neck?
ZIMMERMAN: I didn't say that.
NELSON: OK. So you would agree then that pursuant to Minneapolis Police Department training, when a suspect is arrested, and in the process of being handcuffed or being restrained it would be consistent with the Minneapolis Police Department training you've received to place your knee across the shoulder to the base of the neck?
ZIMMERMAN: I don't know if I - part of your question was handcuffing. And we've certainly been trained to put the knee on the shoulder. But I don't know about just restraining a person. I don't recall being trained in that.
NELSON: OK. Again, possible based on the circumstances.
ZIMMERMAN: Sure.
NELSON: And when an officer is restraining a person and has called for EMS.
[12:25:00]
NELSON: Have you heard the term that we're holding this person for EMS?
ZIMMERMAN: Yes.
NELSON: And essentially, that means you want to keep them in that position until EMS arrives because they're more capable to deal with whatever the situation is. Agreed?
ZIMMERMAN: But no, I don't think I would agree with that.
NELSON: OK. How would you describe the term hold for EMS?
ZIMMERMAN: Hold for EMS is that you are holding him for EMS or her.
NELSON: And sometimes people are held for EMS in a restrained position. Agreed?
ZIMMERMAN: Yes, sometimes.
NELSON: Now, you also testified that once a person is handcuffed, the threat I think you said, is gone. It's at the lowest threat level, right?
ZIMMERMAN: Yes, that's correct.
NELSON: Now that obviously, a person who's handcuffed can still pose a threat, right?
ZIMMERMAN: I suppose I could. Yes.
NELSON: So an officer who is hand even though he has someone handcuffed, that person could continue to kick the officer?
ZIMMERMAN: Yes, I suppose.
NELSON: That person could continue to thrash his body around, agreed?
ZIMMERMAN: Sure.
NELSON: And part of the reason police officers restrain people is for that person's own safety agreed?
ZIMMERMAN: Absolutely.
NELSON: Now, it also presumes that the handcuffs were placed on correctly, right?
ZIMMERMAN: Yes.
NELSON: Sometimes in the - in a struggle or an attempt to handcuff someone, handcuffs aren't placed on properly and they can pop open or be too big for a suspect, right?
ZIMMERMAN: Yes, I don't know if I've ever seen them too big enough for a suspect sometimes they're too tight.
NELSON: OK. But if sometimes in the - in the process of handcuffing someone one hand cuff goes on, thereby giving the suspect a potential weapon if he were to break free, right?
ZIMMERMAN: Yes.
NELSON: Or she for that matter?
ZIMMERMAN: Yes.
NELSON: And officers have been attacked with their own handcuffs in your experience, right?
ZIMMERMAN: Oh, yes. Yes.
NELSON: So you, you would agree that the use of force is a dynamic series of decision making based on a lot of different information?
ZIMMERMAN: Absolutely.
NELSON: And it's based upon a lot of information that is not necessarily captured on a body camera. Agree?
ZIMMERMAN: Yes, that's correct.
NELSON: The body camera is only so effective to show what the body camera sees, and not what the officer sees?
ZIMMERMAN: That's correct.
NELSON: Now, in terms of what you did in this particular case, essentially, you would be - what's called is - you what's called car 21. Is that the homicide unit that I made?
ZIMMERMAN: No, it's not.
NELSON: Car nine, I don't know? You're just homicide. There's some car associated with homicide, right?
ZIMMERMAN: Yes.
NELSON: What car is that?
ZIMMERMAN: We would be - well, it'd be like, car, one 112 or 108 or 110?
NELSON: OK.
ZIMMERMAN: That kind of thing.
NELSON: All right. So you got called? Or you were made aware of this incident back on May 25th of 2020 you understood it to be a critical incident, correct?
ZIMMERMAN: Yes.
NELSON: And it is Minneapolis Police Department policy to turn over the investigation of any critical incident or the majority of critical incidents, we should say to the Bureau of Criminal Apprehension, right?
ZIMMERMAN: Yes.
NELSON: And that is to avoid any potential conflicts between the involved officers, right?
ZIMMERMAN: Yes.
NELSON: And so your role you heard this call came out and you kind of self assigned to show up here?
ZIMMERMAN: Yes.
NELSON: And he did that because he wanted to make sure the scene was secure, right?
ZIMMERMAN: Yes.
NELSON: To make sure that the officers who had responded to the scene were doing the things that they should be doing in connection with a critical incident?
ZIMMERMAN: That's correct.
NELSON: Such as roping off or tying off this off the tape or taping off the scene, I should say right?
ZIMMERMAN: Putting up credit entails, yes.
NELSON: Not permitting citizens to come wandering through the scene, right?
ZIMMERMAN: Yes.
[12:30:00]
