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Prosecution Questions Cardiologist In Chauvin Trial; Cardiologist: By The Time Floyd Was Released From Restraint And Put Into Ambulance, Chance of Survival Was Very Low; Cardiologist: Floyd Did Not Die From "Cardiac Event" or "Drug Overdose"; Minnesota Police Fatally Shoot Black Man, Inflaming Tensions During Chauvin Trial; Eleventh Day of Testimony In Derek Chauvin Murder Trial. Aired 12- 12:30p ET

Aired April 12, 2021 - 12:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[12:00:00]

JERRY BLACKWELL, PROSECUTING ATTORNEY: Was there a point in time Dr. Rich when Mr. Floyd was checked for a pulse when he was in the subdual and the restraint of Mr. Chauvin?

DR. JONATHAN RICH, CARDIOLOGIST: Yes there was.

BLACKWELL: At the time that he was checked for a pulse and he no longer had one, in your opinion as a cardiologist, was there anything Mr. Chauvin could have done at that point in time that would likely have saved Mr. Floyd's life?

Well at the time that Mr. Floyd is determined to have not had a pulse, what is your opinion to a reasonable degree of medical certainty as to what Mr. Chauvin may have done that would have potentially saved his life?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Overruled, you can give an opinion.

RICH: Well, just prior to that point I heard one of the officers actually ask, actually on two occasions, if Mr. Floyd should be turned on to his side and the response was no, just leave him.

And once the officer announced that he did not have a pulse anymore, I think he actually said he does not have one was the exact words. At that point the immediate response would then be to not only relieve him of the restraint, but at that point now you've got to start CPR.

You've got to start immediate chest compressions because we know that if you can get to a patient right away, even when they've lost their pulse, even when they've gone into a cardiopulmonary arrest there is a significant opportunity to save a life.

But for every minute that transpires that you are not performing the basic life support and CPR measures, the literature would suggest in approximately 10 to 15 percent less chance of survival.

It is why we pour so many resources these days into a community education and training for bystander CPR because it's so effective and it works if the person can be tended to quickly enough.

BLACKWELL: Then from your review of the video where you could see Mr. Floyd and Mr. Chauvin there on the ground. If Mr. Chauvin knew CPR, did you see any reason from your observation that he could not have supplied CPR?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Not within a medical opinion so that is sustained.

BLACKWELL: I am sorry, your honor?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sustained.

BLACKWELL: All right.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's not a medical opinion, counsel.

BLACKWELL: So at the time then that Mr. Floyd was actually put into the ambulance from the scene in your opinion as a cardiologist what would have been the prospects of resuscitating him at that point?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Overall, you may give an opinion if you have one.

RICH: So at that point I think the chance of meaningful survival unfortunately was very low because I count the number of minutes that he was on the ground pulse less without any CPR.

And by the time the paramedics rushed in to get him and to get a month to the stretcher into the back of the ambulance, at that point a lot of time had passed. I give tremendous credit to the efforts of the paramedics and the doctors and nurses in the emergency room. I mean, they worked on him for what seemed--

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sustained, this is not responsive.

BLACKWELL: Not Rich, do you have an opinion to a reasonable degree of medical certainty as to whether Mr. Floyd would have lived if not for the 9:29 of subdual and restraint?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Objection overruled.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Overruled, if you have an opinion.

BLACKWELL: Let me finish my question for you, Dr. Rich. Do you have an opinion as to whether George Floyd would have lived if not for Mr. Chauvin's subdual and restraint of him for 9:29 on the ground?

RICH: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Overruled.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You may give an opinion if you have one to a reasonable degree of medical certainty.

RICH: Yes, I believe he would have lived.

BLACKWELL: Last question, Dr. Rich. Do you have an opinion as to whether a completely healthy George Floyd that is any healthy human being would have survived the subdual and restraint that Mr. Floyd suffered during the 9:29 on May 25th of 2020?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Objection--

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's sustained as to irrelevant as to a general person.

BLACKWELL: I'm sorry, your honor, I couldn't hear you.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sustained.

BLACKWELL: My question for you Dr. Rich is with any person, a healthy person had survived the circumstances of conditions that George Floyd underwent during the 9:29 on May 25th of last year.

[12:05:00]

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Same objection.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sustained.

BLACKWELL: No further questions, Dr. Rich.

RICH: Thank you.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Members of the jury, let's take our 20-minute mid- morning recess. Let's come back at 11:25, thank you.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN KING, CNN HOST, INSIDE POLITICS: Hello to our viewers in the United States and around the world. I am John King in Washington. You just heard Judge Cahill - there, about a 20 minute break now in the trial of former Minneapolis police officer Derek Chauvin charged of course in the death back in May of George Floyd.

This is the third week of testimony will also let you know we're standing by for another law enforcement event this in a suburb just outside of Minneapolis where a young black man was shot and killed yesterday in a police event.

We're waiting for the police department to explain that shooting as well. We'll take you there as soon as that event happens. But let me bring in on the important testimony this morning, our CNN Senior Legal Analyst and former Federal Prosecutor Laura Coates and our CNN Senior Law Enforcement Analyst, former Philadelphia Police Commissioner Charles Ramsey.

Laura, it has been Dr. Jonathan Rich testifying for the prosecution this morning. He's a cardiologist, he reviewed the records in the George Floyd case, both the medical records and the videos.

He's the 36th prosecution witness and they are trying to cement in the jury's mind that George Floyd died because of officer Chauvin's conduct, not because of anything else. LAURA COATES, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Absolutely. And the headline

here is his statement that he believes that Mr. George Floyd's death was absolutely preventable. And they actually outline the different ways of doing so, the idea of not having the restraint at all, the idea of repositioning his body to allow him to be able to breathe.

The idea of being able to render CPR even once a pulse was detected as a way of trying to. Even when somebody's pulse is not there that the survival rates can be higher if you particularly administer it, referencing bystanders' ability to be able to render CPR and the resources devoted.

All of this John was the context of building off of witness after witness, go all way back to the bystander of the off duty Minneapolis firefighter wanting to provide aid, the way she articulated all of the things she would have done - the idea the pulmonologist about the cardiopulmonary arrest meaning the heart and the lungs stopped.

Go to the forensic pathologist who testified about why she would not have concluded a drug overdose. And you go to the medical examiner talking about this enlarged heart. He gave such great context there John just talk about how the enlarged heart didn't make him more vulnerable.

It showed an even stronger heart perhaps to respond to a higher blood pressure, it responded how you'd want it to.

And finally going through methodically John, even the past hospital admissions or E.R. Physicals that this person had George Floyd, to talk about how at no point over the course of his life and interacting with medical professionals that he had some abnormality with his heart.

I mean, this was so holistic comprehensive and just what you needed on Monday to remind the juror of all of those aspects of last week's testimony.

KING: I think that part right there chief is very important. Laura Coates as a prosecutor understands the sequencing of events. And your jury has been gone for a couple of days. Some of this testimony is redundant in some ways, other experts have testified to these facts.

But the prosecution as it starts what is likely to be the final couple of days of its presentation of the case and then the defense gets its charge wants to remind this jury from its perspective what this is about.

CHARLES RAMSEY, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Well you know, the prosecution over the past two weeks has really developed a lot of momentum and he's continuing that this Monday.

So I think having a witness like Dr. Rich who is very good. And again my hats off to Mr. Blackwell, the way in which he walks the doctor through the testimony in a way in which is very understandable to everyone who is listening, in particular the jury. I think it was the right thing to do to start off this week with a strong witness like Dr. Rich to talk about this particular case from the standpoint of whether or not his heart or drugs could have caused his death which is obviously where the defense is going to go once they begin presenting their case.

KING: And let's listen to a little bit of Dr. Rich, Laura, because you make the important point about where we are in the presentation of the case. The jury has just had the weekend off. And so there we've heard the defense, Mr. Nelson trying to make the argument.

Well George Floyd was high, he was under the influence of something on the scene. They've brought up on occasion that perhaps he had a weakness in his heart. They are trying to stir up, could have been this, and could have been that. Dr. Rich on the stand under prosecution testimony says no, I don't believe so. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RICH: George Floyd died from a cardiopulmonary arrest. It was caused by low oxygen levels. And those low oxygen levels were induced by the prone restraint and positional asphyxiation he was subjected to.

After reviewing all of the facts and evidence of the case, I can state with a high degree of medical certainty that George Floyd did not die from a primary cardiac event and he did not die from a drug overdose.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[12:10:00]

KING: Give us more Laura, on the point you were making earlier about the prosecution's strategy here. There was a pre-trial hearing before the jury was in the room about the defense is beginning to argue some of these witnesses are redundant, some of these witnesses are cumulative that why can't we move on? But the prosecution believes it's critical to hammer this home.

COATES: Anytime the defense is saying please move on, it's an indication the prosecution is scoring extraordinary points and that everything is being underscored having said that the judge has admonished in the past about the cumulative discussions with law enforcement about the redundancy of use of force.

Remember, this is a separate medical expert with a different specialty. You've heard from a pulmonologist, not the same as a cardiologist, he talked to a forensic pathologist, talking about the future of the medical examiner.

But remember, what this says to me is this. We can go all the way back to the first week and the testimony of the cup foods employee as we watch that in store surveillance video John, watching George Floyd walking around, watching him do different stretches, leaning his body, having conversations, add to that what we already saw from the video evidence here. And what the E.M.T did not relay to the emergency room doctor. And you've got the cardiologist now saying, look, this is not what a fentanyl opioid overdose looks like. He describes what that looks like.

And many people across the country may have had opioid familiarity of people in their lives who have heard generally about it. But you have someone saying you have to have clinical signs of extraordinary lethargy. The idea of almost being un-arousable is one of the words he used.

Either not being able to speak or slurred speech the inability to stand or walk normally and have extraordinary dizziness. We as the audience and the jury of the court of public opinion and the jury in that classroom, courtroom are remembering, none of those things existed while we were watching George Floyd in the cup foods.

Those did not exist while we saw him interact with the officers. And so he brings home the point to essentially round the bases so to speak, to suggest look, everything you're learning about from heart conditions, lung conditions, how about the drug aspect of it?

This is not what you would expect to see of somebody who had a fentanyl overdose. That's why this witness is not redundant for that reason.

KING: And chief, there is a--

RAMSEY: Can I--

KING: Please, jump in, sure.

RAMSEY: Just one point that I think he made that I thought was very important, he dealt with this whole issue of an enlarged heart, which I think was very important, explaining very clearly what that really means. And that by itself would not have caused him to pass away.

KING: We are, as you both quickly on this point, we are moments away from hearing from the police in a little town called Brooklyn Center. It is a suburb of Minneapolis. It is about ten miles away from where Officer Derek Chauvin is on trial right now.

A young black man 20 year old a Daunte Wright was shot and killed yesterday. He was pulled over by police. They said he had outstanding warrants, they say tried to fled this flee the scene. We're going to get more details on that.

But it came up in the morning meeting between the judge and the attorneys in the Derek Chauvin case, because Eric Nelson believes given that there were civil unrest, some protests and some looting, he believes the jury should now be sequestered because he believed they might be influenced by let's listen to the argument he made to the judge this morning.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) ERIC NELSON, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: This incident, while it is I understand it's not this case. I understand that it is not involved that it does not involve these same parties. But the problem is, is that the emotional response that that case creates sets the stage for a jury to say, I'm not going to vote not guilty because I'm concerned about the outcome.

I think the jury should have been sequestered throughout the pendency of this trial. And I think that the jury needs to be cautioned at the beginning of every day and at the end of every day to avoid all media.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: The judge Laura Coates denied that request said he would keep an eye on the jury and keep track of thing. But he did not believe it was necessary, although he did say once you get into the jury deliberations, the jury at that point would be sequestered.

Number one, your take on that ruling and just number two, whether you're the prosecutor, the defense attorney or the judge having to deal with a big event like this. And similar related events, something that could stoke emotions and tensions because of the sources the issues at play in the trial here.

COATES: Well, I think the judge made the right decision here but the defense attorney is trying to preserve his rights on appeal to suggest if there is a conviction that there were external forces and the judge's inability to rule properly made his client biased and prejudice and destroyed his eyes.

But remember the idea of there being a shooting last night. And I use the word shooting because it is distinctly factually different from what we're seeing with what happened with George Floyd.

We don't know all the facts right now whether it's fully analogous or not, but just the mechanism of death being different makes this judge's decision correct.

[12:15:00]

COATES: Also you know, unfortunately, in this country officer involved shootings are quite frequent. I would suspect there's probably been other instances of officer involved shootings or officer involved deaths of civilians, even since the trial began is the judge to stop and sequestered the jury, because they might hear about those cases as well.

And finally you have this issue here. Remember the jury's minds and their memory is quite, it's quite enlarged here because why, all of last summer it was Minneapolis and other cities that also had the protests. They had those who hijack the protest and began looting and engage in criminal behavior.

But you also had protests that were derived from what actually happened to George Floyd. And so the jurors have already had to answer questions about their views. They've already contemplated this in the wild deer period.

And so the question is not whether they know nothing about officer involved shootings or deaths in this country. It's about whether they can be impartial here. And this judge, the defense counsel and the prosecution all agreed that this jury could.

KING: And we'll continue to watch as that plays out. Laura Coates and Chief Ramsey are going to stay with us. Again the Chauvin trial will resume any minute, now they're in the quick break. We're also waiting for a live press conference from the police in Brooklyn Center Minnesota.

That is a suburb of Minneapolis, that about what we were just discussing the officer involved shooting death of a 20 year old Daunte Wright yesterday also today, the Biden COVID relief team touting a record pace of vaccinations.

But as we go to break, the World Health Organization says it is now concerned about the growing case count worldwide.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARIA VAN KERKHOVE, COVID-19 TECHNICAL LEAD, W.H.O: It's seventh week in a row we've had more than 4.4 million new cases reported in the last week. If you compare that to a year ago, we had about 500,000 cases being reported per week. It is time right now where everyone has to take stock and have a reality check about what we need to be doing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[12:20:00]

KING: We're standing by for a police press conference in Brooklyn Center Minnesota that is a Minneapolis suburb where an officer involved shooting of a black man yesterday sparked protests last night. Daunte Wright died after being shot by police that after a traffic stop yesterday.

Again, it's about 10 miles away from Minneapolis in the trial where Derek Chauvin is right now on trial. The Minnesota National Guard was deployed after hundreds gathered to protest. Daunte Wright mother Katie Wright says her son Coulter as he was being pulled over.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KATIE WRIGHT, DAUNTE WRIGHT'S MOTHER: That he was getting pulled over by the police. And I thought well, why did you get pulled over? He thought he had - they pulled him over because he had air fresheners hanging from the rearview mirror.

The minute later I called in his girlfriend answered, which was the passenger in the car and said that he'd been shot.

(END VIDEO CLIP) KING: CNN's Adrienne Broaddus is there for the event joins us now on the telephone from Brooklyn Center. Adrienne, what's the latest?

ADRIENNE BROADDUS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hey, we are in a holding pattern right now. We are at the Brooklyn Center police department that press conference was scheduled to start at noon. But we were just told moments ago, there's a little bit of a delay because they're still waiting on others to arrive here.

I did speak with some community activists a short time ago who told me they were in meetings at City Hall. It's unclear who they are meeting with. And the big question this morning is what led to this incident.

There's been a lot of outrage and the frustration here in Brooklyn Center is continuing to grow outside of the police station where I am now. There's a small group of protesters, some engaging with officers but also the officers are just holding their lines.

Not saying anything back. It's after that officer involved shooting less 20 year old Daunte Wright dead following a traffic stop on Sunday. Police have told us so far they were attempting to arrest Wright after determining he had outstanding warrants.

And he got back into his car. I spoke with Daunte's older brother this morning. And his brother told me he believes in his words, not mine, but he believes his brother didn't know he had these warrants or warrant.

We will ask police about that in the coming moments once this news conference gets underway. But John here in Brooklyn Center is part of the Twin Cities. There's physical damage following the looting overnight.

Stores have been destroyed. I talked to the owner of a local Jimmy John's there and he said here we go again. I just dealt with this in the summer following the protests of George Floyd and midway at his other location. So paired with that physical damage there's also emotional damage that people here are hurting and they are on edge. John?

KING: Adrienne Broaddus grateful you're on the scene for us and we will go back live to that police press conference as it unfolds. A quick break for us when also no we're waiting for the trial, the Derek Chauvin trial to resume that will come in a minute now.

Also some new big headlines in the COVID fight. Michigan has a surge in cases it wants the Biden administration to send in more vaccines. The White House though says that's not smart policy.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[12:25:00]

KING: Let's get straight back to Minneapolis. Now this is Dr. Jonathan Rich on the trial - in the trial of Derek Chauvin.

NELSON: The vast majority of the patients that you treat are in a Clinical Center. Correct?

RICH: Correct.

NELSON: Meaning they're alive generally when they see you.

RICH: Yes.

NELSON: Can we agree that it is a pretty common occurrence that people die? Who have arteries that are 90 percent blocked?

RICH: No, sir. Well, everyone dies eventually, but not from the 90 percent blockage. People die every day that have a 90 percent blockage. People die every day from heart attacks.

NELSON: Well, there's a difference between a heart attack and heart failure, right?

RICH: Heart attack and a heart failure you are correct are completely different terms.

NELSON: OK. So people who have a 90 percent blockage may have a cardiac event and may die.

RICH: As a hypothetical?

NELSON: Yes.

RICH: Hypothetically, there are undoubtedly people who have died from coronary events with 90 percent blockages or without blockages.

NELSON: OK. And people may not experience pain, right as a result of an arrhythmia.

RICH: Correct.

NELSON: And sometimes people have a 90 percent blockage of the right coronary artery and a 75 percent blockage of the left anterior descending artery and they die right.

RICH: Again, this is a hypothetical - not this case we're talking about.

NELSON: Exactly, hypothetically.

RICH: In a hypothetical case somebody who has any extent of corners is including the descriptions that you just gave, could potentially die.

NELSON: Sure. And again, they may have no pain associated with a fatal arrhythmia, right?

RICH: Fatal arrhythmias often are not associated with pain in fact.

NELSON: You would agree that Mr. Floyd did have coronary artery disease?

RICH: Absolutely. NELSON: How is that normally in a living person? How that is normally

diagnosed?

RICH: So usually, the patient has symptoms. So they will have chest pain or they're exercising, right? If you're an active person, you shouldn't have chest pain. And if you come to the doctor and say something's not right, every time I try to exert myself, right try, boy, it feels like the elephant on the chest is the classic description.

So that would be one of many possible ways that you would diagnose coronary artery disease and someone who is alive.

NELSON: May also you do a stress test.

RICH: Sometimes.

NELSON: A blocked right coronary artery that can contribute to a fatal arrhythmia.

RICH: Any - anyone can have a fatal arrhythmia with or without coronary artery disease.

NELSON: And so if a blood vessel is blocked--

[12:30:00]