Return to Transcripts main page

Inside Politics

Police Reform, Gun Safety Bill Stall In Congress; U.S. Pauses J&J Vaccinations After Cases Of Blood Clots; Biden Announces Full U.S. Withdrawal From Afghanistan; New Urgency In Congress To Push Forward With Police Reforms; Interview With Rep. Abigail Spanberger (D-VA); Launch Of America First Caucus Scrapped; White House, Harris Struggle To Define Border Responsibilities. Aired 8-9a ET

Aired April 18, 2021 - 08:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(MUSIC)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

(CHANTING)

[08:00:30]

ABBY PHILLIP, CNN HOST (voice-over): A racial reckoning in Minnesota.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Y'all see the difference. This is a Taser. But no, my nephew was killed with this.

PHILLIP: Another young black man shot to death by police. As the Derek Chauvin murder trial nears the end.

Plus, the war in Afghanistan winds down, two decades after the 9/11 attacks.

JOSEPH R. BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I've concluded that it is time to end America's longest war. It is time for American troops to come home.

SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM (R-SC): I could tell America that you may be tired of fighting radical Islam. They are not tired of fighting you.

PHILLIP: We'll speak with Democratic Congresswoman and former CIA case officer, Abigail Spanberger.

And Johnson & Johnson's COVID vaccine temporarily shut down. We'll tell you what you need to know about its safety.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

PHILLIP (on camera): Welcome to INSIDE POLITICS SUNDAY. I'm Abby Phillip. And to our viewers in the United States and around the world, thank you for spending part of your weekend with us.

The United States is reflecting on a week marked by violence. A mass shooting at a FedEx facility in Indianapolis, a 20-year-old black man shot dead by police, body cam video showing an officer fatally shooting a 13-year-old who had his hands up, all as the verdict in the Derek Chauvin trial could come this week.

The gun violence has not spared big cities or small towns. And just last night there were two more mass shootings, bringing the total to at least 47 in the past month.

And in the town of Brooklyn Center, near Minneapolis, a community again is in mourning. Twenty-year-old Daunte Wright was shot dead by an officer who police said miss took her Taser for a gun. Now that officer is charged with second-degree manslaughter.

In the weeks since Wright's deaths, that there has been nearly nightly protests with participants chanting his name and his killing has deeply resonated in a state with still open wounds after the death of two other black men at the hands of police.

Philando Castile in 2016 and George Floyd in 2020. Here is Wright's mother who was on the phone with him just before he was shot.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KATIE WRIGHT, DAUNTE WRIGHT'S MOTHER: The last few days everybody has asked me what we want. What do we want to see happen. And everybody keeps saying justice. But unfortunately there is never going to be justice for us. I do want accountability, 100 percent accountability.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIP: In Washington, inaction. The White House again urging Congress to pass laws addressing policing and gun safety.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BIDEN: I strongly, strongly urge my Republican friends in the Congress who refuse to bring up the house passed bill to bring it up now. Every single day, every single day there is a mass shooting in this United States if you count all of those who were killed out on the streets of our cities and our rural areas.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIP: Joining me now to share the reporting and the insights, Toluse Olorunnipa at "The Washington Post," and Michele Norris, director of the Race Card Project and a "Washington Post" columnist.

Michele and Toluse, this has been a really traumatic week for so many Americans and there have been just in the last several weeks, just in the last month, take a look at some of these headlines when it comes to gun violence, it is just one after the other. It seems to really never end.

All over this country, what has, Michele, the trauma been like for this country and is it making a difference at all in how people perceive what this level of violence is acceptable?

MICHELE NORRIS, DIRECTOR OF THE RACE CARD PROJECT: Well, good morning, Abby. It is good to be with you. And it has been a very difficult week. And I'll take the first part of that first. The collective trauma that this country is experiencing, you can't even catch your breath after one shooting before there is another that you're trying to process.

It is been reported that there have been, since the trial, since the Derek Chauvin trial began on march 29th there has been 64 people killed at the hands of law enforcement.

[08:05:01]

That comes out to about three per day. That is just an astonishing heartbreaking, heart rendering, but hopefully a moment that will lead us to something different.

In the city of Minneapolis, for instance, there is not a -- there in the Twin Cities, there is not some person that is not impacted by what is going on. So, even if you feel like police reform is isn't you haven't cared about or to which you have not paid attention, this is a moment where people across all sectors are waking up and saying something has to be done.

And hopefully when we talk about that collective fraction that it will include the police community, because they too are impacted by this. When you see police stations in the Twin Cities surrounded by barricades and razor wire and fencing looking like the nation's Capitol after January 6th, you see that the people who are charged with protecting and serving the public are living in fear and rebuke of the public and that just can't stand.

PHILLIP: So what about police reform, Toluse, you know, to Michele's point, that statistic about three a day, more than half of the people were black or Latino. There is also the sense that there is a need for Congress to do something.

Where are we on that? Do you think there is any more momentum for reform, bipartisan reform after all of this?

TOLUSE OLORUNNIPA, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Yeah, Abby, you would think there might be some momentum after these videos that have come out, after we have seen so many instances of police killing young people, often unarmed people after a routine traffic stop and it leads to outrage and community protests and then we get to Congress and we don't see very much.

It does not seem like there is the momentum to get bipartisan support at this moment and even the White House has not wanted to fully engage on trying to put a full-court press on getting a relief reform bill across Congress to the president's desk. They had an idea of having a commission out of the White House and they put that on ice in part because they wanted to allow some of the activism to move forward without having police and activists at the table at the same time.

So, it does appear we're pretty far from any type of major legislation. It may have to be, whether it is at the local or state level, where we have seen some reforms, do things like ban chokeholds, get rid of some of the protections that police have after police shootings, so it seems like it is going to be more of a bottom up movement in which the grassroots is able to get some state and local changes but when it comes to Congress and even the White House, even though Washington is run by Democrats that want police reform, it does not appear that is likely to happen any time soon.

PHILLIP: You know, Michele, you wrote this striking column where you called a loop of death that we are facing, right?

We will never escape the loop of death and trauma until we accept the fact that American policing was born out of a system that was established to protect the tenets of white supremacy and control movements and aspirations of black and brown communities that might threaten that status quo. This might not be the mandate of police work today, but it is its origin story until we admit and remove the vestiges of that history, we are doomed to live inside of this tragic spin cycle.

What you're saying here is a fact. But it does seem like there are not many people, especially on the Republican side, willing to even have this conversation. Where do you think we go from here?

NORRIS: Well, I hope that will change, because when I say that we're all stuck in this infinite loop of death and trauma, I'm using the collective we. We included in the Constitution, every single one of us is impacted by this, not just the victims but the residents of the cities.

And no matter how you look at this, if it's life disrupted because the bus routes are changed or sports events are canceled or communities are burned, the police officers involved in the shooting themselves, you know, suffer a certain kind of trauma, loss of status, sometimes losing their jobs, even as in the case of Kenosha where a police officer was reinstated. All kind of statistics tell us when police are involved in these kind of shootings they do face personal impacts.

So I'm hoping that when people look at these numbers, there have a decision that there must be something done. So even if you want to support blue lives, you want to support them by creating a system where there is less loss of life, less trauma and a system that hopefully will change as to what we said from the bottom up because it is not likely to happen quickly out of Congress but hopefully the changes will happen on a local level.

[08:10:04]

PHILLIP: And one component of that is one issue that I think actually the latest Minneapolis shootings that brought up, the Brooklyn Center police force does not reflect the community that it is in. The city of Brooklyn Center is 38 percent white, 29 percent black and the police force is 77 percent white and just 9 percent black.

That is one of the many issues that these localities actually have to be the ones to address in terms of the police force reflecting their own communities.

But one thing, Toluse, as we go into this week, that we are bracing for, the Derek Chauvin trial is wrapping up and you have this confluence of all of these different events, whether it is Chicago, or Brooklyn Center, or what have you, what are we bracing for this week could it be a something of a tinder box, maybe even the likes of which we saw last summer with protests pilling out in cities all across the country after George Floyd's death.

OLORUNNIPA: Well, there is a lot of angst in the country as this verdict is coming soon and there are a lot of people who are ready to protest. There are already people taking to the streets over the other police shootings that we have seen over the past couple of weeks.

And it could be a tinder box, it could be a circumstance in which if this verdict does not go the way that a lot of activists are hoping and saying that the evidence points to, that there could be a spilling out into the streets, major protests, similar to the protest that we saw after George Floyd's death because those called for justice for George Floyd and anything short of a conviction in the minds of many of the activists and millions of Americans would not be justice.

We did see the video of a police officer kneeling on a man's neck for nine minutes and even though the police officers defense attorneys said that he was following his training and he was doing what was necessary and not the first cause, the primary cause of George Floyd's death, anything short of a conviction, I believe, would lead to major protests and we would have to sort of wait and see as to how Congress, how the White House, how local leaders would respond to that. Because if the justice system is not able to give people what they think is necessary in terms of justice, it is not clear that our political leadership is able to do that either.

PHILLIP: Well, we'll all be -- unfortunately, bracing ourselves for this week but hoping for a certain amount of peace in the streets whether it is in the Brooklyn Center or Minneapolis or what have you.

Toluse Olorunnipa and Michele Norris, it is a treat to have both of you here this morning. Thanks for joining us.

NORRIS: Thank you, Abby.

OLORUNNIPA: Thank you.

PHILLIP: And coming up next, J&J's COVID vaccinations halted. Are health officials overreacting?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:17:32]

PHILLIP: It's been nearly a week and still no decision by the CDC and FDA on when or if to end the pause on Johnson & Johnson's COVID vaccine.

The reason is that six reported cases of severe blood clots out of seven million vaccinations have been discovered in all six were women between the ages of 18 and 48. They developed symptoms including severe headaches, between 6 and 13 days after their injections. One woman tragically died and J&J says there is not enough evidence to conclusively tie the vaccine to the blood clots. Even if the vaccine did cause the clots, they are beyond rare.

So Dr. Fauci said the pause should prove how seriously they take safety.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DR. ANTHONY FAUCI, DIRECTOR, NATIONAL INSTITUTE OF ALLERGY AND INFECTIOUS DISEASES: The fact that this was done would in my mind underscore and confirm how seriously we take safety. Even though it is a very rare event, so if anybody has a doubt they may not be taking safety very seriously, I think this is an affirmation that safety is a primary consideration.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIP: And joining us now is Dr. Megan Ranney, emergency room physician and researcher at Brown University, and the dean of Brown University School of Public Health, Dr. Ashish Jha.

Both of you, thanks for being here.

Dr. Ash, it's been a week since regulators put a pause on the J&J vaccine, and the CDC advisors won't make again until next Friday. So this could be out of circulation for almost two weeks at a minimum.

Are they acting fast enough and what are they waiting for and looking for to make an actual decision here?

DR. ASHISH JHA, DEAN, BROWN UNIVERSITY SCHOOL OF PUBLIC HEALTH: Good morning, Abby. Thanks for having me on.

A couple of things. I think the initial pause made sense when we didn't know much about what was happening, just to take a pause to tell doctors about this, this blood clot needs a specific type of treatment, all of that made sense.

I think the ten-day delay worries me that the advisory committee is not taking into account the cost of the delay. Not everybody could just go ahead and get the Moderna and Pfizer vaccine, there are a lot of people for whom the J&J vaccine, which is very safe and effective, is a really good choice, and I'm worried that they would not end up getting the shot if the delay lasts much longer.

PHILLIP: I mean, Dr. Ranney, to that point, is the vaccine worth the risk and people have been asking me, should there be narrower recommendations for who should get it and who shouldn't?

[08:20:08]

So, perhaps if you're a woman within that age, if you have a history of blood clots, if your a pregnant woman where there is a risk of blood clots, should there be narrower recommendations for the J&J if it is recirculated into the system? DR. MEGAN RANNEY, EMERGENCY PHYSICIAN, LIFESPAN/BROWN UNIVERSITY: You

know, that's my best interpretation as to why they are continuing the pause, to narrow those recommendations, identify which populations are at higher risk and allow each of us as Americans to make an informed choice. At the end of the day, we're all smart people. We can judge risk versus benefit but if a certain group is at particular high risk of getting blood clots, maybe we shouldn't offer the vaccine to them.

And, honestly, Abby, we simply don't know yet. It seems like it is mostly women of child bearing age, that seems like a conservative recommendation to make, but it is not fully clear and I think that is probably why they're continuing the pause.

I'll say for myself, as a woman of child bearing age, if I did not have the option to get vaccinated other than with Johnson & Johnson vaccine, I would take Johnson & Johnson because the risk of my catching COVID and having something bad happen is higher than that very, very small risk of that unusual blood clot.

PHILLIP: And the risk of blood clots, if you get COVID, is very high, right?

So, Dr. Jha, what Dr. Fauci said about vaccine safety does sound logical but it also seems that it is just as likely that some people will say maybe I should wait even longer, maybe the vaccines are not safe. Even if the other vaccines are perceived to be safe, then some people may never view the Johnson & Johnson vaccine as being safe.

JHA: Yeah, I think that would be unfortunate if that is what happens. And I think most Americans understand that we have a system around vaccine safety that is very, very rigorous. As Dr. Fauci said, we take one in a million events very, very seriously. These vaccines are exceedingly safe. They're I believe safer than most therapies and vaccines that we have developed in the past.

So I hope it gives people comfort but I do worry a little bit there will be people who interpret this in the wrong way. I hope that number is very mall.

PHILLIP: Dr. Ranney, I want to play this exchange at a congressional hearing between Dr. Fauci and a Republican Congressman Jim Jordan. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. JIM JORDAN (R-OH): Are we just going to continue this forever or when did -- when do we get to the point, what measure, what standard, what objective outcome do we have to reach before Americans get their liberty and freedoms back?

FAUCI: You know, you're indicating liberty and freedom. I look at it as a public health measure to prevent people from dying and going to the hospitals.

JORDAN: You don't think Americans' liberties have been threatened the last year, Dr. Fauci? They've been assaulted. Their liberties have. FAUCI: We're not talking about liberties. We're talking about a pandemic that has killed 560,000 Americans.

JORDAN: And I get that, Doctor.

FAUCI: That's what we're talking about.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIP: Whatever you think of Congressman Jordan and the outrage in that clip, I do wonder, though, with millions of Americans probably asking maybe a similar question, at what point will public health officials say it is okay to lift these restrictions, is there an answer to that? Should there be an answer to that?

RANNEY: I think there is an answer. And the answer that I've been telling folks is that when we get the every American who wants a vaccine has the opportunity to get vaccinated, when we get to around 70 percent or 80 percent of American adults vaccinated, we'll start seeing lifting of mask mandates.

Already we're telling people, once you and your friends or families are all vaccinated, it is safe to get together. You can do that without risk of catching COVID for the most part. And as more and more of us get vaccinated, we're going to be able to expand those recommendations.

But we are seeing in Michigan and in Pennsylvania and elsewhere across the country, the huge danger of lifting those restrictions too soon. And the thing that I remind people is that their not just putting themselves at danger, they're putting those around them in danger as well.

And I will tell you, as an ER doc, I'm still seeing patients come in and get sick and hospitalized in the ICU on a daily basis almost, because of COVID among folks who have not yet been vaccinated. So, this is not some hand waving danger, it's very --

PHILLIP: Yeah, absolutely. And, look, there are very high risk things that you could do, especially once your vaccinated. Dr. Jha, one of those big questions about what's high and what's low in terms of risk is about the infections outdoors. And I know there has been some research on this in the last week.

What do you think? Should the CDC update its recommendations on, let's say, mask wearing outside to try to focus people's attention on things that are truly the highest form of risk?

[08:25:08]

JHA: Yeah, Abby, I would say we've known for a year that outdoor infections are extremely rare. They only happen when you have large packed rallies for instance. So if you are not participating in one of those, I think it is pretty safe to be out and about walking around without a mask, especially in large parts country where infection numbers are under reasonable control. So I expect over the next few weeks states to start lifting outdoor mask mandates.

Indoors, of course, is where most of the infections happen so I think that needs to remain for a while longer. But I think we do have to look at outdoor activity and see it as largely as a safe thing unless you have congregations for large numbers of people together for a long period of time.

PHILLIP: Right, we're in this tug-of-war between wanting to give people a sense of hope and optimism and focusing on things that people shouldn't be doing that are high risk.

Dr. Megan Ranney, Dr. Ashish Jha, both of you. Thank you for being with us this morning.

And coming up next, America's longest war nears its end.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE W. BUSH, FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT: On my orders, the United States military has begun strikes against al Qaeda terrorist training camps and military instillations of the Taliban regime in Afghanistan. We will not waiver, we will not tire, we will not falter, and we will not fail.

BIDEN: I'm now the fourth United States president to preside over American troop presence in Afghanistan -- two Republicans, two Democrats. I will not pass this responsibility onto a fifth. And it's time to end the forever war.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:31:13]

PHILLIP: America's war in Afghanistan began 19 and a half years ago in the days after the September 11th attacks. The cost more than 2,300 American lives and $2 trillion. It is by far America's longest war, years longer than Vietnam, and four times longer than World War II.

There are young men and women serving who watched their parents fight in the very same war or weren't even alive when it began.

President Biden says it is past time to bring them all home. He announced last week that the withdrawal will be complete in time to mark the 20th anniversary of the September 11th attacks later this year.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We delivered justice to bin Laden a decade ago and we've stayed in Afghanistan for a decade since. Since then, our reasons for remaining in Afghanistan are becoming increasingly unclear. We cannot continue the cycle of extending or expanding our military presence in Afghanistan hoping to create ideal conditions for the withdrawal and expecting a different result. (END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIP: Joining me now is Democratic Congresswoman Abigail Spanberger, a former CIA case officer who sits on the Foreign Affairs Committee. Congresswoman, thanks for being with us this morning. You know, you started your CIA career at the beginning of this war on terror and I know that your work remains classified, of course.

But fighting Islamic terrorism was, obviously, a major part of it. So I want to ask you, I mean, as someone who has dedicated your whole life to this fight, was it worth the cost in blood and in treasure?

REP. ABIGAIL SPANBERGER (D-VA): We had a very clear mandate when the United States of America went into Afghanistan after the 9/11 attacks and that was to go after those who gave safe harbor to the perpetrators of 9/11. And ultimately, we took on, we the United States of America, we took on years' worth of efforts to undo this the strong holds that had given birth to al Qaeda, safe harbor to al Qaeda and allowed for -- the creation of the organizations that would ultimately attack us on 9/11.

And so we have achieved the goals that we set out to -- to follow hitting at the heart of al Qaeda, killing Osama bin Laden, going after those who gave safe harbor to the perpetrators of 9/11 and certainly those who perpetrated that horrific attack and that was the goal set forth, clearly outlined in the 2001 authorization of use of military force.

And that effort and the thousands of service members who have lost their lives in support of that effort -- that effort is one that we achieved. And so at this time it is a challenging decision for the president to make, but the decision to bring home and end our military engagement in Afghanistan is a decision that has been overdue for some time.

And ultimately, they're difficult and not without risks. I believe it is the right decision at this time.

PHILLIP: There has been some criticism and it is tied to what you were just saying about the risks and it is not just from Republicans.

Michele Flournoy was a top Obama Pentagon official and she was a finalist to be Biden's Defense Secretary as well but listen to what she had to say about Biden's move.

[08:34:53]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MICHELE FLOURNOY, FORMER UNDERSECRETARY OF DEFENSE: We are in a position where our forces were like, you know, the boy with the finger in the dike. And when we remove that finger, I think that the flood is going to come.

We have to focus on our interest which is, you know, preventing Afghanistan from being a safe haven for terrorists. It is going to -- it's going to be much harder to do that without troops in country.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIP: Are you concerned about that? Will pulling out the already low troop levels turn Afghanistan effectively into a failed state?

SPANBERGER: So, I am concerned about it. At this point, we're talking about fewer than 3,000 soldiers coming out of Afghanistan. And I think it is fair. And coming from an intelligence background, as you mentioned I was a former CIA officer, you know, our whole scope is to plan for all of the possible worse case outcomes.

But I do think that in the case of Afghanistan and in the decision that the president has made, it is at this point almost 20 years. An entire generation of service members who have rotated through Afghanistan with a goal that has been met years and years and years ago.

And I think an important piece here is that we have many tools that we utilize. And while the military members and service members on the ground in Afghanistan are one part of that, our engagement with Afghanistan is not limited to military engagement.

It is diplomatic. It is intelligence sharing and engagement through our intelligence community. And so on the ground, our diplomatic and intelligence-based efforts will continue.

And I think that notably the Biden administration and President Biden having served on the Foreign Relations Committee, having been vice president of the United States for two terms has a very strong and clear regard for the work of the United States State Department and career diplomats.

And I think that as we make this transition to pulling out actively- engaged military members, that the Biden administration will rightly so lean far more on our diplomats and intelligence officials to ensure that we continue to know what is happening on the ground.

PHILLIP: Turning to Russia, one of the other big, you know, geopolitical challenges this administration has. President Biden said he spoke to Putin and suggested a summit between the two leaders but he also punished Russia for its election interference and its role in a massive cyber hack.

The president also announced some sanctions. You know, I wonder, he says that wants a stable and predictable relationship with Russia but these sanctions and the tension that seems to be there, doesn't that seem to escalate tensions?

SPANBERGER: So I would argue that the aggressions that we, the United States of America, have felt from Russia over the past few years are aggressive actions that cannot go unanswered. We know and it is in the public unclassified threat assessment report and it's been documented elsewhere in the public view, that Russia sought to influence our elections and the American electorate, sow discord in the United States in the '16 election, '18 election, and '20 election. We also know that there's SolarWinds hack, so this is an effort that the Russian government undertook to go after essentially the technology utilized in the United States of America, so that they could have back doors into the computer systems of U.S. government agencies and businesses across the country.

This is a direct attack on our information, on our capability and on our government agencies. And previously under the last administration, it went unanswered and in fact, in many cases, excused.

And so while I do think that we should work towards getting to a stable place in our relationship with Russia, that does not begin by us just ignoring aggressive act after aggressive act.

And so putting sanctions against, you know, specific Russian individuals and companies and expelling ten Russian diplomats known to be intelligence officers, I think is a strong showing that we will not permit them or accept them aggressing against us or our democracy and then we move on from there.

PHILLIP: Yes. On the domestic front, this past week we've been addressing a lot of issues of gun violence and policing. And for obvious reasons, the Chauvin trial and the deaths of Daunte Wright and Adam Toledo, there seems to be some renewed urgency behind legislation to overhaul the laws around policeman misconduct.

The George Floyd Justice and Policing Act did pass the House this year but without any Republican support. Do you think that there are specific provisions as we look toward the Senate that we could find compromise on, where you think you can win GOP votes on to get something done.

[08:39:57]

SPANBERGER: So I refuse to accept that the answer to that question is no. And I was -- we were in Washington, I was on the floor of the House talking with colleagues and we were talking about movement on the Justice and Policing Act.

There is continued efforts in a bipartisan manner to go through portion by portion the Justice and Policing Act to get it to a point where we can see law pass that will meaningfully impact our communities, that will meaningfully make reforms, that will affirm that we as a nation recognize the significant and disparate impact on black and brown communities and the rates by which black and brown men and women die at the hands of police.

And I was on the House floor having this exact conversation as everyone was reeling from the shooting of Daunte Wright when a colleague said there is another video that's coming out and this one is of a child.

And there is that moment where you think, oh, God, here we go again, this is happening again. And of course, it was the video of Adam Toledo being shot in Chicago. And so I think the feeling of urgency exists, certainly knowing that the trial of Derek Chauvin for murdering George Floyd is coming to an end. That urgency continues and so there are many people that remain committed. I remain optimistic that we will get something signed into law because I don't think that there is any alternative.

But we did, Abby, pass the Justice and Policing Act, the George Floyd Justice and Policing Act just this year, again in this new Congress and again last year.

PHILLIP: Right.

SPANBERGER: And continuing to work.

PHILLIP: On the politics of it, though, I mean, right after the 2020 election, you were very frustrated with the rhetoric about defund the police that has come from some of your colleagues like Rashida Tlaib even as recently as this week, what do you think about where Democrats are in terms of the messaging on this issue?

Do you worry that reform, police reform, can be done or maybe can't be done without being labelled as anti-police?

SPANBERGER: I think that this becomes a place where, you know, the real challenge is we have to be clear with the American people -- Democrats, Republicans, everyone. We have to be clear with what we're advocating for. And the George Floyd Justice and Policing Act as an example, provided substantial funding for anti-bias training, for police training, for, you know, efforts to reform policing systems.

And so recognizing that this is an issue about making positive change, in the two largest communities that I represent and I represent ten counties in total, choke holds and no knock warrants are already not utilized here locally.

So some of what we're talking about, the very procedures that in fact led to the deaths of George Floyd or Breonna Taylor, police departments across the country, many of them already eschew (ph) some of these tactics.

And so talking about our efforts, to say, you know, this is an issue of how do we safely engage in communities, how do we enable police officers to do their job.

I have one colleague who is a former police officer who talks about how it is a social contract between the police and the community. And that if that social contract is broken, the community that is policed does not feel they that trust the police and the police don't trust the people that the whole system degrades. And certainly that is what we've seen across the board.

And so, you know, moving forward, it's about ensuring that people know what it is that we're advocating for, body cameras because --

PHILLIP: Right. SPANBERGER: -- frankly, the atrocities that we have seen and the horrors that we've witnessed have be possible because of body cameras and far too many police departments across the country don't have that access to the resources to be able to have the cameras and/or the storage.

(CROSSTALK)

PHILLIP: And we will be watching very carefully to see if something is possible on this issue.

Congresswoman Abigail Spanberger, thank you so much for joining us this morning. We really appreciate it.

SPANBERGER: Thank you.

PHILLIP: And coming up next, an uproar over proposed America First Caucus with a nativist mission.

[08:44:32]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PHILLIP: And now for the stories at the top of our political radar this weekend.

Democrats revolted on Friday after President Biden did not raise the number of refugees allowed in the U.S. beyond the historically low 15,000 level set by the Trump administration. Damage control was swift.

Biden himself said he would raise the cap in a brief Q&A with reporters yesterday. And press secretary Jen Psaki said the administration would announce a final number by May 15th but that Biden's earlier pledge to welcome over 60,000 people seemed unlikely.

And Congresswoman Marjorie Taylor Greene has scrapped a plan for the launch of the America First Caucus. Punch Bowl News obtained a flier promoting the new caucus which said "The quiet part out loud, calling for a common respect for uniquely Anglo-Saxon political traditions" and warning that mass immigration poses a threat to the long term existential future of America.

Leader McCarthy tweeted that the Republican Party is the party of Lincoln and the party of more opportunity for all Americans, not nativist dog whistles.

Back with us now is "Washington Post" reporter Toluse Olorunnipa. Toluse, does the Republican Party have something of an extremist problem on its hands with this so-called America First Caucus starting and then, you know, coming out of existence very quickly?

TOLUSE OLORUNNIPA, "WASHINGTON POST": Well it definitely does have THIS problem. This new caucus was very much not only nativist but full of dog whistles and according to several Democrats it was a completely racist caucus that was trying to show that Republicans are in line with sort of a whites-only policy, this idea of Anglo-Saxon political history.

[08:49:54]

OLORUNNIPA: This is something that was rejected not only by Democrats but by a large number of Republicans. And they've tried to walk it back. But as you said, the quiet part has been said out loud. And there is a big constituency within the Republican Party for this.

So I don't see this going away even though this caucus seems to have been scrapped for now.

PHILLIP: Absolutely. And I don't know that you can put the genie back in this particular bottle, Toluse.

Thank you so much for being with us this morning.

And coming up next, Vice President Harris' critical new mission: border diplomacy.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PHILLIP: Vice President Harris is still defining her role as the White House' point person on border diplomacy. But in the meantime, Republicans are rushing to define it for her, using images like this to attack her for not traveling to the border or doing more to address the surge of the migrant children.

And the White House says that's not actually her job. She is focused on the root causes of illegal immigration from Central America.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KAMALA HARRIS, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We have an opportunity as the United States of America with the resources and with the will that we have to provide the people of the Northern Triangle with some hope that if they stay at home, help is on the way and they can have some hope that the opportunities and the needs that they have will be met in some way.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIP: And joining me now with her reporting and insights on this story is CNN's White House correspondent Arlette Saenz.

So Arlette, what is it? Is her job to be the face of this immigration situation? Or is it much more narrow than that? It seems like there is some confusion about that. Not just among Republicans but even within the White House.

ARLETTE SAENZ, CNN WHITE CORRESPONDENT: Yes. Well, the White House is trying to make these clarifications and make it clear that she has a tailored approach to this and that she has been tasked with handling the diplomacy with these Central American countries, Northern Triangle countries, similar to a role that President Biden played as vice president under President Obama, talking directly with these leaders to try to figure out what can be done in those countries to address those root causes that is prompting these people to travel from their countries and make that journey to the U.S.-Mexico border.

[08:54:53]

SAENZ: But there have been times, there have been confusion around her role and so you have seen these clarifications after clarifications coming from the White House. And in fact, the vice president herself, when she was asked the question about the border earlier this week, she made it clear to say that Secretary Mayorkas is the one handling what's happening at the border and she is the one focusing on those diplomatic relations (ph).

PHILLIP: That's such an interesting dynamic that we'll get to in a second. Tut this is also not exactly a great plum assignment for a vice president. I mean maybe there is never a great assignment.

But for Joe Biden, immigration is actually the place where he has the lowest approval ratings. after the coronavirus pandemic, after healthcare, after the economy, immigration, just 42 percent approve of his handling of this. So there is a lot of peril here for Vice President Harris, right?

SAENZ: There certainly is. I mean we especially see that with the way that Republicans are trying to brand her as the face of the border. You have some who are flat out calling her a border czar, something that they are very quick to push back on.

But certainly, as someone who is the vice president, who potentially has a future if she decides to run for president down the line, this is something that Republicans will continue no matter what, no matter what insistence from the White House that she is handling diplomacy, Republicans will just keep trying to hang the border issue on her.

PHILLIP: So you mentioned Secretary Mayorkas being in charge of the border. Politico had a story this morning about some of the infighting within the White House over -- over the crisis in general. Some people blaming HHS Secretary Javier Becerra for the dealing with unaccompanied minors issue.

Is there a need perhaps for someone like a Kamala Harris to be the overarching force that is managing the whole of government response? If that's not her job, should it be?

SAENZ: Well, that's the thing that the White House so far has resisted, really putting one person in charge of all of this. You have seen them say that Secretary Mayorkas is handling the border and when people arrive there then you have Secretary Becerra handling those HHS shelters that are housing these children.

And the White House arguing that the vice president's focus will narrowly be on those diplomatic efforts. But of course, this is all tied together, right? And so the question going forward is do they feel the need to have someone kind of overseeing all aspects, dynamics of this, or if they're going to continue to do it in the multi- official route that they say they've been using now?

PHILLIP: Well, that's going to be their strategy for now but we'll see how long this lasts because obviously this is a big challenge. It's maybe one of the biggest challenges that the Biden administration is facing right now.

Arlette Saenz, thank you for being with us this morning.

And that is it for INSIDE POLITICS SUNDAY. Join us back here every Sunday at 8:00 a.m. Eastern time and the weekday show as well at noon Eastern time.

But coming up next, "STATE OF THE UNION WITH JAKE TAPPER AND DANA BASH". And Dana's guests this morning include Dr. Anthony Fauci and national security adviser Jake Sullivan.

Thank you again for sharing your Sunday morning with us. Have a great rest of your day.

[08:58:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)