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China: Lab Leak Theory Is "Political Hype, Smear Campaign & Blame Shifting"; Biden En Route To Cleveland To Tout Economic Agenda; States & Cities Hope Incentives Coax More People To Get Vaccinated. Aired 12:30-1p ET

Aired May 27, 2021 - 12:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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DR. ANTHONY FAUCI, DIRECTOR, NATIONAL INSTITUTE OF ALLERGY AND INFECTIOUS DISEASES: -- occurrence from the environment of an animal reservoir that we have not yet identified. No one knows, including me, 100 percent, what the origin is, is the reason why we're in favor of further investigation.

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JOHN KING, CNN HOST: Help us from a science standpoint, Doctor. What would you need to have a definitive answer? Is it access to the records of patient zero? Is it access both to the lab and back to the wet market? What are the pieces that you would hope would get you to a definitive yes or no about where this started?

DR. MONICA GANDHI, INFECTIOUS DISEASE PHYSICIAN, UNIV. OF CA SAN FRANCISCO: Well, it's a great question and I do want to reiterate what Dr. Fauci said that we really don't know. But I will say something really important that there have been two other coronavirus pandemics like this. They've just been so much more limited that they didn't get this worldwide attention. SARS in 2003 lasted about nine months. It was exactly this type of coronavirus, very bad cause severe disease and was limited to 8,100 infections worldwide.

MERS was even more limited in 2011, but again, a cousin of this coronavirus that can cause severe coronavirus disease. Both of those were found to be traced to that. And then ultimately there was an animal intermediary that fundamentally got it to us as a human host. SARS was a palm civet and MERS was the camel. This SARS-CoV-2 is likely to have emerged in animals come through to humans that way. What is happening in this lab in November 2019 in the Wuhan Institute of Virology is it does sound like they were working on this virus. Because there was this question of people getting sick, lab members getting sick about three that actually had to go to the hospital, and that is concerning that they were working on this particular virus.

It doesn't mean that necessarily the virus was constructed by that lab. It was that they were working on this virus. And that's an important distinction. It doesn't mean that transparency isn't needed. It is needed, because we needed to know if that -- if the virus was known about a lot earlier, because vaccines could have been developed earlier. Things could have been contained earlier, this is important to know, like President Biden and Dr. Fauci said.

But it's hard to construct a virus and unleash it to the world. In fact, no virus that I know enough can that, can you do that.

KING: Right. It's a very important point. But it's also to your very point about the transparency maybe you need new global regulations or recommendations for these labs and what they should and should not be doing with existing viruses. The question is, how do you get to the bottom of this? And we know this is now one of, you know, a long list of issues between the Biden administration, it was the Trump administration, now the Biden administration and the Chinese government between the Biden administration and the World Health Organization.

Republican Senator Todd Young saying this is not only a test for the Democratic president, but for the World Health Organization. Joe Biden, remember, Donald Trump pulled out, Joe Biden got back in. Todd Young says prove you have credibility.

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SEN. TODD YOUNG (R-IN): I think its credibility will only be undermined further, if they don't -- if they aren't able to persuade the Chinese Communist Party to come up with the data pertaining to this virus and provide access to some of the Chinese nationals who were working on this virus.

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KING: We could debate the reasons forever. But the fact that President Biden has said yes, to the intelligence community, do this, do it in 90 days, get me a report, you just heard him say he plans to make it public. That's a big challenge.

SEUNG MIN KIM, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Yes. It is a big challenge. And it's remarkable what has happened over the last several weeks in the several days even for this apparent change of heart from the White House because as recently as earlier this week, I believe on Tuesday, the White House was still deferring, saying President Biden was still deferring to the WHO investigation.

And all of a sudden on Wednesday, we get the statement saying he had been reviewing this for a time. He wants our own intelligence community to investigate the origins. And what I thought was really interesting and worth following up. Two, is that the President disclosed sort of the differing opinions within the intelligence community about, you know, about which theory of the origins they think is more valid. And intelligence experts that my colleagues have talked to said, that doesn't usually happen.

The President of the United States usually does not make those differing debates public. So why the President did that and what we'll find out over the next 90 days will be really interesting to watch.

KING: And in fact, you see the pressure from, it's mostly Republicans but not all Republicans in Congress. They for a long time, going back to the Trump administration said, some have said they believe it's a lab leak. Others have said we should at least be investigating more forcefully. And now you have to deal with the Chinese government. Again, if you want access, especially to year -- now a year plus old records or patients and information, documents.

Lately, some people have played the old trick of political hype on the origin tracing of COVID-19 in the world. Smear campaign and blame shifting are making a comeback, and the conspiracy theory of "lab leak" is resurfacing. That is a reminder that President Biden is asking the FBI, asking the intelligence agencies, asking public health experts to knock on the door and say China we'd like some information. At least the first answer is going to be, go away.

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LAUREN FOX, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, exactly. And I think one of the challenges was that if you were going to get to the bottom of either of these theories, you needed to get into the lab pretty quickly after COVID-19 surfaced, right? I think that that was one of the concerns. Now, one thing that I think is interesting and is happening on Capitol Hill is you have Republicans and Democrats coming together. They've had a unanimous consent agreement yesterday to declassify some of the intelligence surrounding which one of these theories is more valid.

And I think that that shows you the Democrats want to make sure that they're supporting the President here, that if he wants to go down this path, they want to be with him. But that is a difference than what we have seen in the last several months.

KING: We'll circle the calendar for 90 days. And we'll also check in along the way because it will be difficult and it would be nice to get the answers. Dr. Gandhi, grateful for your time and insights, Seung Min Kim and Lauren Fox are going to stay with us.

Up next, President Biden on the road visiting a red state to make his case that Republicans around the country support the big spending plans that Republicans in Washington are trying to bury.

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KING: President Biden is on his way to Ohio right now to talk about the economy and to promote his views on infrastructure. This as Senate Republicans just a few hours ago released their counteroffer on infrastructure. The President speaks at a community college in Cleveland, the Democratic stronghold in the state we once called a battleground state. But now you can see it on the map here leans decided to be red. More in the competing plans in just a moment.

First, let's take a closer look at the President's choice of venue. Again, he is off to Ohio. Donald Trump won Ohio quite handily. But if you just look up here at the Cleveland area, Cuyahoga County up here, this is the Democratic stronghold. This is a heavily African American community. These are the suburban voters who left Trump and came to the Democrats in 2018 and 2020. Joe Biden with a big win in Cleveland and surrounding Cuyahoga County but if you look at Ohio, red, increasingly red, used to be a battleground state and not so much anymore.

So why there? Number one, you touch base with the Democratic base. Number two, the Community College is where Joe Biden was supposed to have a rally when COVID shut the whole campaign down. So part of this is repayment, if you will, for cancellations in 2020. But this is the main reason he is there. He wants to pitch the idea that in Washington Republicans keep saying go smaller or no spending at all.

Joe Biden wants to make the case, look, Ohio gets a C minus overall when it comes to grading its infrastructure, C plus on bridges, C minus on dams, D on roads, C plus on schools, D plus on drinking water. President wants to make the case that even in red states, this spending is essential. He will make the case even in red states, mayors, governors, Republican voters think it's important that Washington help with things like this.

Republicans say, Mr. President, we're listening. But they also say Joe Biden trying to appeal to middle class voters in places like the Midwest like this, that Republicans are saying his staff, too liberal.

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SEN. JOHN BARRASSO (R-WY): The old nickname for Joe Biden is Middle Class Joe. This is something he would normally before. They may override the President on this, overrule him. And that's what I, my concerns are with Nancy Pelosi and Chuck Schumer. And what is basically socialism, camouflaged as infrastructure.

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KING: Back with us, CNN's Lauren Fox and Seung Min Kim at the Washington Post, Senator Barrasso making the point that Republicans have this kind of proposal that they think the President should love and he should say, yey. Let's take a quick look up here. If you look at the top line numbers, the Republicans are saying they have this new $928 billion proposal. You look at some of the factors in here, they say it's $56 billion for airports, 506 billion for roads and bridges, 22 billion for water, 20 billion there for infrastructure financing. So those look like big numbers. However, if you learn Washington budget speak and things like baseline, $928 billion is not really $928 billion.

KIM: Right. It's that keyword baseline that we're watching. So if you actually compare apples to apples, you're comparing about $1.7 trillion, which is the latest offer from the White House. It's to about 257 billion from the Senate Republicans that they laid out this morning. So clearly further apart than it seems because what, in terms of new spending, that's how much the Senate Republicans are proposing compared to the White House. And that seems difficult to bridge right now. But what we know is that, you know, President Biden and Senator Shelley Moore Capito, the lead Republican negotiator, spoke again this morning after Republicans had proposed their counteroffer, and both sides seem to indicate that these negotiations will actually continue beyond Memorial Day into next week. So that effort at bipartisanship is still there, even though the actual product seems very hard to reach at this point.

KING: Right. So then the question is, how long is the fuse of progressives, both up on Capitol Hill, but also on the President's staff, also on the President's staff in the White House who say I get it, Mr. President, you want to talk to the Republicans at this. You make that point that they spoke this morning, listen to the President for heading to Ohio, he says, we keep talking.

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JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I told him we have to finish this very soon. And there's another Republican group that also wants to talk. And but we're going to have to close this down.

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KING: This is my old joke about Washington math that more can sometimes mean less. You have the Shelley Moore Capito proposal. You have another group of Republicans and Joe Manchin is a Democrat is working with them. So you have more bipartisanship, which often means it is less likely you will get a final product because everybody has their little fiefdom.

FOX: That's exactly right. I mean, what you have right now is progressives are waiting in the wings and they're going to start getting impatient very, very soon if these talks drag out any further. And I think one thing to keep in mind about all of this is that everyone assumes that if Biden can't get a bipartisan agreement, he will turn to Democrats and they will quickly move a reconciliation bill, a bill that can pass with just 51 Democratic votes in the Senate.

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And I think that is an assumption that we should not be making right now. It is going to take a lot of work to get someone like Manchin on board on the same bill that they have to get Bernie Sanders on board. And you should not assume that bipartisanship if it dies becomes just an easy Democratic bill. They're going to have a lot of work to do. And it's going to take a long time. So they're going to have to decide very quickly how much more time do they want to be spending on these bipartisan negotiations but you don't want to walk away too soon because you don't want to move to a Democratic bill and then get stuck with nothing.

KING: You have to prove to Manchin and Sinema maybe a couple others that you gave it your best efforts is that the idea here?

FOX: Exactly. KING: OK, alrighty then.

Up next for us, a new twist on the term lucky shot, get a COVID vaccine, you might win a car, free college, even a million dollars.

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KING: The COVID numbers are better because the American vaccine rollout is hitting some important benchmarks. Today for example, we know that in 10 states, 70 percent of adults have received at least one vaccine dose, the Biden administration wants every state to get to that point by July 4th. The vaccines are safe and effective, yet cities and states across the country are testing incentives as a means of getting more shots in arms.

Let's look at some of the latest numbers. First, just look at the case trend. If you look right here, we're at 24,000 new infections yesterday were new infections today way, way down, way, way down. If you look at the overall trend over the last year, we are right now about where we were a little higher than where we were last Memorial Day. Now point of caution, we had a summer spike and a winter spike but from the 235,000 new infections to begin the year down below 25,000 infections right now. The trend lines are in the right direction.

And most people think they will stay there because of this the rollout of vaccines. But if you look at this, the average vaccines per day 1.7 million shots in the arms a day right now surpassing most other countries, even if you do it on a population basis per capita basis, but down from where the administration was before that, which is why so many states and cities offering incentives now. You can get things like a fishing license in Maine, things like Knicks tickets in New York, they're actually worth it again, Knicks tickets, a college education, college fees paid there, some cash in Ohio, amusement park tickets in Illinois, cars in Tennessee, some beer out on the west coast.

Those are just some of the incentives that people are offering. In the Ohio Governor, a lot of people mocked the lottery they have there, a million dollar lottery they have there. He says look, I announced it here. Vaccines are up. Now is that all just because of the lottery is it because younger people are now eligible. We could have a debate about that. But there's no question announced here, numbers are up. How Ohio's Governor thinks it's working. And listen here. The first Vax-a-million winner in Ohio says this is how I'm going to spend at least a little bit of my money.

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ABBIGAIL BUGENSKE, OHIO'S 1ST "VAX-A-MILLION" WINNER: Just to sum it up in one word, a whirlwind, and it absolutely has not processed yet. I am still digesting it. And I like to say that it feels like this is happening to a different person. I cannot believe it. I did come up to Cleveland from Cincinnati to look at a used car. And I think buying a used car is still in my future. So that's about as far as I've gotten.

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KING: Abbigail will have a little money leftover after she gets that used car.

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Up next for us, a serious challenge for Republican governors facing reelection, his name is Donald Trump.

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KING: Today's Political Radar now new CNN reporting on Donald Trump and the headache he is causing Republican governors heading in for the 2022 elections. The Republicans have 20 seats to protect in 2022. You see the map right here. And they also have hopes for some pickups. But Trump is aggressively pushing his big lie litmus test. And that's a problem in many races.

Arizona is Doug Ducey, for example, Georgia's Brian Kemp, they certified Joe Biden as the winner in their states and Trump is still furious at them. Plus potential top tier Republican candidates in some states, Michigan and Pennsylvania to name two are deciding against running and one reason we keep hearing from those prospects is they don't want to deal with the chaos that comes with refusing to repeat the big Trump lies. CNN's Gabby Orr has been doing some fabulous reporting on this and joins us now. Gabby, what else are you learning?

GABBY ORR, CNN REPORTER: Thanks, John. Multiple Republicans told me that President, former President Donald Trump, has been causing recruitment and retention issues as the Republican Party stares down 36 gubernatorial elections between now and next November of 2022. A large part of this is as you mentioned, because of the litmus test that President Trump has imposed on Republican candidates asking them to lie about the outcome of the 2020 election.

There are so many Republicans who just don't want to enter a race and have to straddle that line in both a primary and then a general election. We're doing so might make them less appealing to the point that they lose and embarrass themselves. The other problem is the relationship between Donald Trump and Doug Ducey. The Arizona Governor is of course, the head of the Republican Governors Association. He has not met with Donald Trump at Mar-a-Lago or at his Bedminster, New Jersey golf clubs since the 2020 election, which is something that every, almost every other Republican leader involved in the party's electoral apparatus has done.

They've made that pilgrimage to meet with the former president. In the case of House Leader, House Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy, he has actually gone down there to smooth over his relationship with Trump. That's not the case with Doug Ducey and as senior advisor to Trump, Jason Miller told me, Donald Trump does not need Doug Ducey's help. Not the best place for Republicans to be in as they look at these gubernatorial elections between now and next November, John. KING: No, not the best place and you're putting it kindly. Something fascinating to watch, first we go through primary season then the general election. Gabby Orr grateful for the fresh reporting for us. Grateful for your time today too on Inside Politics, hope to see you back here this time tomorrow.

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In the meantime, Ana Cabrera picks up our coverage right now.