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Inside Politics

Mike Pence: January 6 Was a Dark Day in the History of the U.S. Capitol; Mike Pence: Trump and I May Never "See Eye to Eye" On Jan 6th Attack; Trump to Speak at North Carolina GOP State Convention Tomorrow; FBI Director Compares Threat of Ransomware Attacks to 9/11; U.S. Added 559,000 Jobs in May, Unemployment Rate Fell to 5.8 Percent. Aired 12-12:30p ET

Aired June 04, 2021 - 12:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[12:00:00]

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: I'm Kate Bolduan. John King picks up right now.

JOHN KING, CNN HOST: Hello everybody. Welcome to "Inside Politics". I'm John King in Washington. Thanks for sharing your day with us. A startling new warning from the FBI Director, Christopher Wray compares a spike in cyber attacks to the terrorism wakeup call of 9/11.

Plus, brand new jobs numbers hiring is way up, but still short of expectations. What that means for the COVID recovery and the big Biden agenda? And big Republican drama Donald Trump gives a big political speech tomorrow, Mike Pence gave one last night and made a clear break from his former boss over the Capitol Insurrection.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MIKE PENCE, FORMER U.S. VICE PRESIDENT: You know President Trump and I have spoken many times since we left office. And I don't know if we'll ever see eye to eye on that day. But I will always be proud of what we accomplished for the American people over the last four years.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: Let's begin right there, the Former Vice President drawing his line in the battle now consuming the Republican Party. How to characterize the insurrection and whether to side with Trump in insisting the 2020 election was stolen?

And Joe Biden is an illegitimate president. For all his praise of Trump last night in New Hampshire, this is a clean break.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PENCE: January 6th was a dark day in the history of the United States Capitol. But thanks to the swift action of the Capitol Police and federal law enforcement, violence was quelled. Capitol was secured. And that same day we reconvene the Congress and did our duty under the Constitution and the laws of the United States.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: With us to share their reporting and their insights CNN's Abby Philip and Jeff Zeleny, Sabrina Siddiqui of "The Wall Street Journal" and Jackie Kucinich to "The Daily Beast". Now the key part is the end of right there did our duty under the constitution and the laws of the United States.

Donald Trump, just in recent days has issued statements saying no, Mike Pence should have stopped the certification of the election. No, Joe Biden is not the legitimate president. How significant is it that Mike Pence says without using the words, sorry sir, you're wrong?

SABRINA SIDDIQUI, WHITE HOUSE REPORTER, THE WALL STREET JOURNAL: Well, it's significant, because we have seen these differences between Former President Trump and Former Vice President Mike Pence over the events of January 6th, and of course, most importantly, over the integrity of the election and its outcome.

But at the same time, it was striking to see Pence still straddling this line. I mean, this is someone who was evacuated along with his family from the Senate for the rioters were chanting hang Mike Pence. And that was in part because Former President Trump had falsely claimed to his supporters that Pence could stop the certification of the election.

And so you still see him standing up there, proudly supporting his role in the Trump Administration and not really distancing himself from the Former President overall, acknowledging they've spoken several times since January.

And you know this is coming as you point out, as Trump is still attacking Pence for not overturning the election.

KING: Right. Trump continues to attack him. Trump will speak in North Carolina tomorrow night. If you read what the Former President has put out in his written statements, he is still continuing this cockamamie idea that he could be reinstated.

If you're talking to sources close to him. He's talking to people close to it. And so to your point about Mike Pence, he draws a clear line about the insurrection. If Trump runs in 2024, Pence is probably a non-factor. He's hoping Trump is off the scene.

But George Conway, one of the Trump critics in the beginning, listen to him this morning at CNN. He's saying it's just not enough.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE CONWAY, CONSERVATIVE LAWYER: It's just not something where you can just say, well, we don't quite see it eye to eye about it. Like it might be whether or not you should spend $50 million, more or less on infrastructure. It's just a remarkable attempt to downplay the significance of what happened on January 6th, to think that he's going to harm himself. He's worried about harming himself by standing up for democracy is really just depressing and stunning thing. (END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: Every Republican has to answer this question. Every single Republican, how do I characterize the insurrection? What do I say as Trump repeats the big lie? For Mike Pence it's an intensely personal question for both reasons both what happened on that day, his life was at risk, and he served Donald Trump loyally for four years?

ABBY PHILLIP, CNN ANCHOR, INSIDE POLITICS SUNDAY: Yes, I mean, I think George Conway is onto something here. I mean, what Mike Pence was doing was the bare minimum for someone who was threatened with hanging on the on January 6th, it's not like some sort of policy dispute about what happened on that day and also about what Trump's role in it was.

And so Pence is really, I think, still just doing only enough to kind of get by here, like a lot of Republicans still not wanting to explicitly cross Trump. And he knows like many other Republicans know that Trump's delusions about what is going to happen either in August or what have you whether he's going to be reinstated or only escalating?

[12:05:00]

PHILLIP: He's only getting worse. He's only making this a bigger and bigger conspiracy for his supporters. And that is contaminating the entire Republican base.

JACKIE KUCINICH, WASHINGTON BUWRAYU CHIEF, THE DAILY BEAST: But what else is Pence going to do at this point? He has a lot of really bad options. If you're Mike Pence, and you think that you're going to run for president and try to succeed Former President Trump.

He could come at him, that won't work. He could - and you can see him he can read this line. That's not going to work because the Former President Trump is still assailing him. So while you know this, we look at this speech and say, oh my God! Like I almost tried to get you killed what are you doing? He really - he's in an impossible position at this point of I mean, kind of his own making.

KING: Right. If Trump would go quiet, and Trump would say, I don't plan to come back, this would be a different conversation. But Trump is not going quiet. Trump does say he wants to run again. Trump has this speech tomorrow.

Maggie Haberman reported the other day, and we've matched that reporting that he keeps telling people and he's talking to some of the crazies out there about these audits and that he can be reinstated. There's no law to reinstate, it's just not going to happen. It's lunacy.

But in "The National Review", our Charles Cook writing Maggie Haberman was right under the - because a lot of people say oh, fake news. Don't believe the mainstream media. He writes about that and says to acknowledge that Trump is living in a fantasy world does not wipe out his achievements or render anything else he has said incorrect. It does not endorse Joe Biden or hand the Republican Party over to Bill Kristol or knock down an inch of the wall at the border. It really demands that Donald Trump be treated like any other person. But again, that's the minority view on the right, stand up to Trump.

Other Republicans who have to be on the ballot next year or maybe run for president in 2024 they're not just afraid of Trump. They're afraid of Trump voters who continue to believe the wild stuff, he says.

JEFF ZELENY, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: No doubt and I think it's in the reverse order. They are afraid of the voters. I mean, we've seen that the Former President's popularity has diminished. I mean, he took a big hit this week when his you know, his new form platform did not take off. So they had to rescind that, but, uh--

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Caught a blog.

ZELENY: It is a blog. But look, I think it's - I mean, for Mike Pence, what he said last night, I bet a lot of thinking went into what his speech was going to be. And in Trump world that was actually saying a lot. What is President Trump going to say tomorrow night in North Carolina, about this?

He could go after Mike Pence in ways that we have not heard him do publicly. If he chooses not to that will be interesting as well but if anyone else was saying this, he would go right after them. So that will be interesting.

But John, you're absolutely right. If the former president decides to run again, obviously, Mike Pence will not be a factor. It's an open question, if it'll be a factor anyway. But by doing this is clearly starting to draw a line. And no, it's not very much. But in Trump world, it's a decent amount of space between the two, but I can't wait to see what happens.

KING: And that's the interesting calculation. Who's the audience in the sense that we can sit around the table and say, well, it's a break, but it's not a significant break, or he could have been tougher. He could have moved away.

George Conway can say now, you got to be tougher. The issue is what does Donald Trump do? Because Donald Trump still holds control over the majority of Republican voters. And we know from our reporting, as I said, he's been telling people he still believes he can be reinstated.

That's lunacy. It is simple lunacy. I want to just read a little bit more. Sources familiar with Trump's thinking describe him as bored by the issues his advisors wish he would focus on from threats to America's energy infrastructure to increased inflation and other economic concerns.

He's so obsessed with his unsuccessful quest reelection one of ex- Trump official said that he's been moving himself toward irrelevance. That's what the official might say. But again, what Trump says is what's important? He's going to come out tomorrow, North Carolina Republican Party he's going to give a speech.

And again, he complicates everything for every single other Republican as he lays down these markers, and many of them are afraid to disagree with him.

SIDDIQUI: Well, I think the question for Republicans is what do we plan to do about it, especially as recent polls show that a slim majority of Republican voters actually do believe that the election was stolen, and there have been several opportunities for Republicans to really challenge Trump?

I mean, even after the insurrection 147 House Republicans still voted to overturn the election, even after the House, once again, impeached him for inciting the riots, Republicans in the Senate voted to acquit. And then of course, they filibustered these independent commissions for - to look into January 6th.

And the real issue here is that Republicans are OK with examining the security failures on January 6th. They don't want to really talk about what the rioters were doing there in the first place?

KING: That's why I do think - forgive me. But that's why I do think even though people are going to say it wasn't enough, it wasn't tough. I do think it is significant, the words Pence used. When he said, you know, because Trump is out there saying have these cockamamie audits, right?

If they're frankly BS, they had the recounts, you had legal challenges. These are done outside the system. He says he can be reinstated. There is no - nothing in the constitution read it constitutional conservatives. Look at the Federalist Papers doesn't exist. You can't reinstate somebody after an election.

So when Pence says we did our duty under the current constitution and the laws of the United States. He's trying to send a message to Republicans. There is a safe place to have this Donald Trump is wrong argument.

[12:10:00]

KING: I need help.

PHILLIP: Well, I don't think there is a safe place to have this Donald Trump is wrong argument while also trying to remain in his good graces. It's one or the other--

KING: That is true.

PHILLIP: It's really black and white here. So if Mike Pence wants to have a political future, he's got to decide which side of the fence he's on. And I think the straddling is absolutely not going to work. I mean, look at what Liz Cheney has demonstrated.

She's just saying the election was free and fair, and she got kicked out of Republican leadership. So I don't think that this idea that Mike Pence is trying to save his political career makes any sense because there is no political career without Trump's voters. And this middle ground does not exist.

ZELENY: It's a test of that. I think this is a test of that. And he's doing it in New Hampshire, not insignificant. It was not there are plenty of Republicans in New Hampshire who are not thrilled with Donald Trump. So we'll see what the market is?

I agree with you. It's probably not very much in a primary. He didn't give that speech in South Carolina. Mike Pence is in South Carolina a month ago. That would be very dangerous, but maybe he's testing the waters of those independents up there. Everything's Biden spending too much. Who knows? Or maybe we're just given this to--

KING: Well, other local reporters said the room was eerily quiet.

ZELENY: When he was there.

KING: When he created a little bit of gap with Donald Trump. We're in the early chapters of an uncertain drama. I'll just leave it at that for now. Up next, the FBI Director's call to arms about cybercrime he compares the challenge to 9/11 and says higher prices at the pump or for a burger are proof. You should care.

(COMMERCIAL BWRAYK)

[12:15:00]

KING: Very important call to arms today from the FBI Director. Christopher Wray comparing the current spate of ransomware attacks to the challenge the United States in the world faced after the 9/11 terror attacks.

Wray telling "The Wall Street Journal", the FBI is investigating about 100 different types of ransomware, many of which traced back to Russia based hackers, he said. He also says the recent attacks on a critical energy pipeline and a major meat supplier should serve as a wakeup call about the gravity of this threat.

On the comparison of cyber attacks to terror attacks in the world these are his words. There are a lot of parallels, a lot of importance, a lot of focus by us just on disruption and prevention. There's a shared responsibility not just across government agencies across the private sector, even the average American the scale of this problem is one I think the country has to come to terms with.

With us to share his expertise and insights is Michael Leiter. He's the Former Director of the National Counterterrorism Center Michael, grateful for your time on this day. Somebody in Christopher Wray's position does not drop the 9/11 analogy, unless he's trying to get attention. What is the biggest problem you think that he's trying to say people we need to act and now?

MICHAEL LEITER, PARTNER, SKADDEN ARPS SLATE, MEAGHER & FLOM LLP: John, I think you're absolutely right. I will say he's not the first senior official in this administration or prior administrations to use that analogy, really going back to the Bush Administration. The Director of National Intelligence, Mike McConnell talked about a cyber 9/11. But I think he realizes that post colonial pipeline hack where really did start to affect American lives in a broad way. I think Chris Wray sees that there's an opportunity here to really crystallize the problem for the private sector, and the public sector to try to move towards a more focused effort from both government, the private sector.

I think he's right, there are a lot of similarities with counterterrorism and some good lessons. But I think there are also some things which we have to do quite differently if we're really going to be successful in this.

KING: Well, let's walk through some of the challenges. Let's start with the government. After 9/11, the Department of Homeland Security was born. The TSA was born. Do we need a reinvention of the way the government handles the cyber threat? Do we have the same situation we had pre 9/11, where the United States government had a ton of information, but it was across a number of agencies that were in silos and not sharing it? Do we need a restructuring?

LEITER: Well, I - and we started that restructuring already. I think the analogy there is incredibly good. And you've outlined the problems we have pre 9/11 for terrorism. For Cybersecurity, it's quite similar. You have the FBI, Department of Homeland Security, Department of Defense, National Security Agency, and the Broader Intelligence Community, all with their hands in the mix.

Like the creation of National Cyber Director, Chris Inglis has been nominated for that position by the Congress because of the Congress nominated by this administration, that's a great first step a greater focus, the National Security Council, also a good first step.

And President Biden's executive order that came out a couple of weeks ago, tries to bring those agencies together in a better way. I think that is important from a government side. The place where this won't be as effective, I think is with the private sector, although the private sector is important in counterterrorism.

In fact, the vast majority of cyber ground that has to be protected is the private sector. And that's going to require a different relationship than we had in the counterterrorism contract.

KING: And so you're out of the government now and you work in your advice private sector clients about how to deal with this threat? I assume you get some reluctance and resistance to sharing more information with the government, whether it is to protect information from competitors, whether it's just we don't have a relationship with the government. What is - what should the private sector be doing differently tomorrow that it's not doing today?

LEITER: Well, that's absolutely true. The private sector is always worried about legal liability and regulatory enforcement or even criminal enforcement by the government. So sharing that information is sometimes a little bit scary. And the U.S. government I think can lower some of those risks. I also think the private sector wants to see value coming back from

the U.S. government when they share that information. And often it's a one way valve without much coming back. What the private sector can clearly do is of course; prioritize this that does usually mean more money and more people.

But it also means that awareness of your vulnerabilities and most importantly, in many ways because we know people are going to be attacked over and over that ability to recover those systems. So we don't have extended operational repercussions whether it's pipelines, electricity or other people or other areas of the economy.

[12:20:00]

LEITER: We need the companies to be able to cover those systems even after they have been attacked.

KING: So let's move on to the individual responsibility. Director Wray clearly trying to get the attention of average Americans, whether they are professionals, whether they're blue collar, whether they're young or old, talking in this. Now realizing it can affect them when they're buying gas at the pump or buying a hamburger.

I think there's a growing awareness now of just how much we're all in this fight together, meaning ransomware attacks on a colonial pipeline raises the price of gas at least temporarily. Ransomware attacks on a big meat supplier going to raise the price when you go by burger or steak.

So what should individuals be doing? We're all told at work, don't open suspicious emails. What else? What is the next step in the elevating the sophistication, if you will, of the individual American to be on the lookout?

LEITER: I think individual Americans had become so used to living in a seamless technology society. We actually have to be willing to have some slight barrier set up when we're trying to do things electronically to create some of that increased security.

So part of that trade off is in the same way that getting on an airplane after 9/11 we have to take our shoes off. We're going to have some of those equivalent measures where it's a little bit harder to open an email. It's a little bit harder to access something there are two factor authentications.

All of these things produce some difficulty, but the payback for society in terms of increased security. I think like counterterrorism is very much worth it.

KING: Michael Leiter, grateful for your time today. We'll continue the conversation.

LEITER: Thanks very much John.

KING: Thank you, sir. Up next for us jobs are up the unemployment rate is down. But a big new economic report also offers a few warning signs about the COVID recovery.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[12:25:00]

KING: The Labor Department says the United States did add 559,000 jobs in May. That was a bit below forecast. But a big improvement from the April numbers the unemployment rate falling last month to 5.8 percent. Leisure and hospitality along with manufacturing sector picked up jobs, construction and retail though last jobs. No surprise President Biden is using that report to pitch items on his big legislative wish list.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT, UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: A of that progress is undeniable, it is not assured. That's why I propose the American jobs plan and the Americans family plan. We have a chance to seize on the economic momentum of the first months of my administration, not just to build back but the bill back better.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: With me now to discuss this important report Mark Zandi, he's Chief Economist of Moody's Analytics and C. Nicole Mason, the President and CEO with the Institute for Women's Policy Research. Mark, I want to start with you.

Look the overall number in a normal economy; we would be thrilled to see that many jobs. In this economy, we're trying to figure out where we are coming out of COVID. When you see construction and retail losing jobs, so what jumps out at you is most significant in this report?

MARK ZANDI, CHIEF ECONOMIST, MOODY'S ANALYTICS: Well, I think it was a solid report a half a million jobs. You just cut through the ups and downs and all around in the monthly data. That looks like we're on track to see going forward here.

And at that pace, the unemployment rate will fall by a 10th of a percentage point every month or two. And you know you kind of do the forecast that everything sticks to script and I think it will. We'll be back to full employment sometime in late 2022.

So you know we got a ways to go here. And obviously, a lot of things could go wrong. But right now it feels like we're on the right track.

KING: Mark says we're on the right track. Dr. Mason, you have focused a lot of attention on what you call the sheet session, the painful impact of the COVID recession on all Americans, particularly among women who have to deal with other challenges.

If we could show you historically here if you go back to the beginning, you see the high unemployment rate in my world and 14.5 percent. At that point back in May 2020 it was higher among women than among men. If you come forward now to where we are today at 5.5 percent the

unemployment rate among women is actually now a little below that for men in this economy. Do you see significant progress? What are your biggest question marks on that particular area?

C. NICOLE MASON, CEO & PRESIDENT, INSTITUTE FOR WOMEN'S POLICY RESEARCH: So we've made modest gains, but I'm very cautious and cautiously optimistic. Because although the unemployment rate for women, all women has dropped to 5.4 percent for Black and Latino women, the numbers are still high so 9 percent for black women nearly 1.7 percent times higher than for all women.

So when I think about what we will need to get on a full path to recovery, I think we're on our way, but we have a long way to go. Getting schools reopened, daycares reopen, vaccination in people's arms, but also lifting states and local restrictions will also go a long way to helping women and workers reenter the workforce.

KING: These issues obviously, become both economic issues and political issues given all the debates here in Washington. I want you to listen here. These are to Jersey Shore, business owners, restaurant owners saying they're having a hard time finding workers for summer jobs.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARILYN SCHLOSSBACH, OWNER, MARILYN SCHLOSSBACH GROUP: There are people that are raising wages to unsustainable levels. Yes, it's great, but what's going to happen when this levels off. You can't tell that person oh, I'm sorry. Now you're going to get cut in half on your pay.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I just can't get people to come in and just start a new job.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

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