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New York To Lift Mask Mandate For Businesses Tomorrow; As NY States Rolls Back Mask Mandate, CDC Still Recommends Masking In High Transmission Areas; CNN: Pence Didn't Initially Intend To Say "Trump Was Wrong" In Speech Friday; CNN: GOP Donors Reaching Out To Pence After He Admonished Trump. Aired 12-12:30p ET

Aired February 09, 2022 - 12:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[12:00:00]

JOHN KING, CNN HOST, INSIDE POLITICS: Hello, everybody. Welcome to Inside Politics. I'm John King in Washington. A snowballing pandemic shift, New York's governor adds momentum to a sudden movement to end or ease mask mandates. Dr. Anthony Fauci says, Washington will soon take itself out of the big COVID decisions about everyday life.

Plus, brand new CNN reporting on why Mike Pence decided to rebuke Donald Trump last week. Pence did not plan to call his former boss wrong and his January 6 demand un-American, but he rewrote the speech after Trump again attacked him. Plus, Madison Cawthorn has a safe Republican district, but liberals furious at how he whitewashes the insurrection, believe they just might have found a way disqualify him from running again.

First today, though, a very important giant COVID decision from New York's governor. Democrat Kathy Hochul says, she will enter state's mask mandate for businesses tomorrow.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. KATHY HOCHUL, (D) NEW YORK: And at this time, we say that is the right decision to lift this mandate for indoor businesses and let counties, cities and businesses to make their own decisions on what they want to do with respect to mask or the vaccination requirement.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: At the very moment, Hochul was making that announcement, the White House science team said in their view, it is too soon to end the restrictions in most places.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) DR. ROCHELLE WALENSKY, CDC DIRECTOR: And at this time, we continue to recommend masking in areas of high-end substantial transmission, that much of the country right now in public indoor settings.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: So, there's the tension front and center. Hochul right now the six Democratic governors to significantly rollback COVID restrictions just this week. We are waiting new announcements from Illinois and Orlando later today. And the Republican governor of Massachusetts today also saying the statewide school mask mandate there will end soon. This dramatic drop in new COVID infections is driving this, but do not for a minute discount politics, rising public frustration with mask and other mandates.

Let's get straight up to the studio, CNN's Brynn Gingras. Brynn, this Governor Hochul again joining other Democratic governors and getting way out ahead of the White House.

BRYNN GINGRAS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, that's right, John. I mean, you're seeing this quick succession from all of these governors in blue states, like you said, kind of, you know, addressing sort of the frustration that a lot of people have been feeling in these states. And also, just trying to make this transition into what is "new normal" right. They want to find a way path forward, even if the CDC is not recommending it.

So, here the governor of New York, Kathy Hochul, she is essentially getting rid of that mask mandate. It was set to expire tomorrow. So, essentially doing it on the day it was going to expire anyway. And that means that businesses in this state before would have to either require a proof of vaccination, or they would have to have people indoors wearing masks. So, that's what's going away.

Essentially, they're saying, all the metrics are showing that this is - we're in a good spot, you know, we were in double digits when this was put in place back at the end of last year. And now we are in the single digits when it comes to that COVID positivity rate. However, she said and many times, John, that you know, we're not out of this. She kind of said that she wants to have the leniency to be a little bit nimble here if things should change.

Now, there are other states, as you mentioned, John, that are taking another step and not just getting rid of their mask mandates. But also saying that schools, children inside schools will not have to wear masks. We saw New Jersey do it, Connecticut do it. You said Massachusetts then becoming also the next state to make that at the end of February.

Kathy Hochul, as far as New York goes, not going that far just yet. She essentially is saying that we want to get through the breaks that kids have in the month of February, come back in March, do some testing, look at the metrics again. And then she wants to have the liberty to sort of assess the situation there. But a lot of movement just within the last week with all of these states, and certainly making again this transition that they're ready to move forward in the states addressing public concerns as well.

KING: Right. A lot of movement dizzying movement in just the last 72 hours really. Brynn Gingras, appreciate a live report from New York. Let's get straight to the White House now. Our Chief Correspondent Kaitlan Collins. Kaitlan, a lot of movement. The snowball coming down a Hill with these mostly Democratic governors. So, Charlie Baker, Republican, Massachusetts as well, out ahead, it seems like what the White House science team thinks is prudent at this point.

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yes. There's a lot of movement across the states but not a lot of movement here, when it comes to the CDC and what they are recommending. Now, they have always said that it is up to states and localities to make a decision whether or not they're going to follow what the CDC recommends. But the CDC has made clear today, they are not changing this guidance yet and they are not in a position to do so.

According to director Walensky, who just told us on a briefing that the reason behind that is because hospitalizations are still so high and death rates are still so high. Now, these governors, John, have sought guidance from the CDC, from the administration saying they want clear guidance on what is the path forward to getting back to normal, to living with COVID-19 and what that should look like, but that is not guidance that the CDC has offered yet. They still maintain that you should be wearing a mask.

[12:05:00]

And as Dr. Walensky just told me a few moments ago, she believes if you're in an area of high transmission, you should be wearing a mask indoors and she said that's much of the country.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

COLLINS: When it comes to masking, should people be listening to the CDC or listening to their governors?

DR. WALENSKY: Kaitlan, we've always said that these decisions are going to have to be made at the local level. And the policies at the local level will look at local cases. They'll look at how local hospitals are doing. They'll look at local vaccination rates. And they, as I understand it, in many of these decisions are using a phased approach. Not all of these decisions are being made to stop things tomorrow.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COLLINS: Now, of course, some of those changes, those dropping of those mandates are happening pretty quickly. And when I asked Dr. Walensky, if they have any data to see that backs up these decisions that some of these governors are making, she did not answer, John.

KING: Kaitlan Collins, for live reporting (Inaudible). Appreciate it very much. Let's get some very important perspective now on this day, which can be somewhat confusing from Dr. William Schaffner. He's the infectious disease professor of Vanderbilt University Medical Center. Dr. Schaffner, grateful for your time and every time.

But especially today, when you have the governor's doing one thing and the White House seeming to say they don't think we're quite there yet. These are number of the states. New Jersey rolling back their school mask mandate, March 7, Oregon Schools March 31, Connecticut, February 28, Delaware indoor mask mandate on February 11, in schools at the end of March, Massachusetts schools at the end of the month, and you see this playing out here. In your view, does the science support this Dr. Schaffner or does this feel more political?

DR. WILLIAM SCHAFFNER, PROFESSOR. DIV. OF INFECTIOUS DISEASE, VANDERBILT UNIV. MEDICAL CENTER: Well, John, you know, we know in public health, that it's easy to eliminate the program before you have controlled the disease. When you see the cases starting to come down. We're at the beginning of the end. We're not at the end yet. And I would be cautious along with the CDC. I think we have to do this carefully in a staged fashion.

And I think at the moment, we still have lots of transmission. Lots of cases around the country. Hospitals, yes, have plateau, cases are coming down. We haven't done this yet in a sustained fashion. What do I mean by sustained? Let's watch these cases and hospitalizations go down for four, six, eight weeks. And then, then we can be much more secure in turning from pandemic to endemic. Let's do this carefully rather than in a carefree fashion.

KING: I get what you're saying. And I've especially loved your expertise over the last few years. The issues, you say four, six, eight more weeks. As you know, the American people are saying, we're into our third year of this now and the last two years have been pretty tough. So, here's where we are. Our Omicron piece, peak got us up to 803,000 cases a day. And if you look at the very steep drop, we're down to 234 just shy of 235 new infections a day, Dr. Schaffner, on average right now.

And if you go through some of the states here, you do see in the states that are making these changes, New York and Massachusetts, the big drop. So, you don't dispute that we're dropping and dropping fast. Your question is, maybe should these governors be waiting? What two more weeks, three more weeks?

DR. SCHAFFNER: You know, something like that. I would like to really see that. The cases and the hospitalizations particularly, really diminish and reassure us that they're going to stay down. You know, my adage is better to wear your mask a month longer, than take your mask off a month too soon. We've seen this movie before.

We could get an explosion of cases locally, here, there and everywhere. We don't want that. Let's tamp this down in a secure way before we gradually then open up our society. I think we're headed in that direction. I'm enthusiastic about it. I'm grateful for it. But let's do it carefully. We don't want to blow it.

KING: You don't want to blow it. But as you know, we've talked about this before, one of the challenges here in this polarized political environment. A lot of people are defaulting to their politics, when they decide what to do about COVID, instead of defaulting to common sense and good public health guidance. If you just want to look at this, look at this mom with poll right now. Is it time to accept COVID here to stay and we just need to get on with our lives?

70 percent of Americans, that means a lot of everybody, a lot of Democrats, Republicans, and it depends. 70 percent of Americans say they agree, 28 percent disagree. So that's public opinion. And then you see this hospitalization number. Dr. Schaffner is way down, 160,000 at the Omicron piece down below, thankfully below 100,000 again. So, how do you as a public health professional, talk to somebody who says, I get it, I'm just tired, I need to move on.

DR. SCHAFFNER: I know it, I empathize. Heck, everybody in public health and taking care of patients is tired also. We're all tired together. But let's hang in there a little bit longer. There have been lots of examples, where programs that are on the verge of success have stumbled and have prolonged the transition from pandemic to endemic because we loosened up restrictions just a little bit too soon. This is the Winter Olympics. I think we're a little bit ahead of our skis.

[12:10:00]

KING: Dr. Schaffner, timely way to put it. As we go through this, we'll continue this conversation obviously with these governors making these decisions. We're in an interesting period to watch over the next couple of weeks to see how it plays out. Appreciate your time today, sir. When we come back from brand new CNN reporting on why Mike Pence decided to add a rebuke of Donald Trump, with that big speech last Friday.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: In fascinating, brand new CNN reporting right now on why Mike Pence decided last Friday to deliver a strong rebuke of Donald Trump. The former vice president told the conservative legal group, "Trump was wrong." And Pence characterized Trump's demand that Pence refuse to accept electoral votes from certain states that Trump lost as "un- American," but CNN is told those strong words were not part of the original speech plan.

[12:15:00]

CNN's Gabby Orr is here to share this new reporting. So, Gabby why, why did Mike Pence decide to go to rewrite and deliver a much tougher speech?

GABBY ORR, CNN REPORTER: Well, John, you're right. This was not originally part of Mike Pence's plan, but that rather stunning rebuke that we saw of Donald Trump that was included in Pence's speech to the Federalist Society last Friday, was included after the former president issued two statements last week, once again falsely suggesting that Mike Pence had the authority on January 6, to reject certification of certain ballots, confirming the results of the 2020 presidential election.

So, it was after those two statements where Donald Trump named Mike Pence and said that he had the authority to do that, that Pence decided to include these comments in his speech to the Federalist Society. One advisor to Pence was telling me that after he included these remarks, this very strong rebuttal of the former president in that speech that he heard from numerous Republican lawmakers, Republican donors and top conservative leaders who privately applauded him for doing so.

And what that really says is that there are several Republicans behind the scenes that still agree with Mike Pence and want people to speak out and say Donald Trump is wrong, but they themselves aren't willing to do so publicly.

KING: So, that begs the question then. If Pence do this once because Trump again attacked him? Or does he now think I'm going to keep doing it?

ORR: Well, his team has left the door open to future comments that are in line with what he said last Friday. I spoke with one person close to Pence who told me, "he is not looking for this to be a main storyline, but if something is falsely said about him, he is going to correct it." So, we may expect him to see something - to say some things like this in future speeches, but at the moment, it's not for certain.

KING: Fascinating reporting, Gabby Orr, we appreciate you sharing it with us. Let's bring the conversation in the room, with me to share their reporting and their insights, Jackie Kucinich to The Daily Beast, and CNN's Eva McKend. Let's just go back as we begin the conversation. It was notable on Friday. Mike Pence's very different tone. Let's go back and listen to a little.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MIKE PENCE, UNITED STATES FORMER VICE PRESIDENT: And I heard this week, that President Trump said I had the right to overturn the election, but President Trump is wrong. I had no right to overturn the election. The presidency belongs to the American people and the American people alone.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: He went on to say to suggest otherwise was un-American that what Donald Trump wanted him to do, Mike Pence said was un-American. How significant is it? That he decided, OK, enough, I'm going to do this.

JACKIE KUCINICH, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: It's significant. However, Pence has been sort of written off by the Trump faithful and the Republican base and a lot of circles because of his actions on January 6, and the fact that he's standing up for himself, after a year of being dragged by the president and those close to him. I mean, sure, Mike Pence is a leader in some quarters, the Republican Party, but the thing about the story that really struck me, and we've heard this over and over again, from Republicans who have spoken up and have been led to twist in the wind.

People like Kinzinger, Cheney, Peter Meijer, there's a story, I think it was The Washington Post, but don't quote me on that. About how he had members saying, you know, I agree with you, but I can't vote like that because I'm afraid, not only because of my election, because of my family.

So, the ones that are silent, are enabling the fact that if they don't like it, the fact that Trump is still the leader of the Republican Party, the fact that there are these censures, motions being passed by the RNC, those quiet, you know, people behind the scenes, it's just a matter of time. I guess before one of these members who is up front, calls out the fact of the people who are being quit.

KING: You're right. You're portraying a very important dynamic and these donors calling up, you know, Mike Pence, Gabby Orr report saying attaboy, Mike attaboy, Mike, but they won't do it themselves. And that he even, that that it's news that it's significant, that it's a big deal that Mike Pence states a fact. Right?

You know, he stated a fact. Mike Pence did not create no policy, he stated a fact, I do not have the authority. What Trump was asking me to do is outside of the bounds, it was un-American. Just that that is news, tells you a lot about this intimidation factor within the party.

EVA MCKEND, CNN NATIONAL POLITICS REPORTER: Absolutely. And, you know, we should question how much he should be applauded for this. You know, he is just stating the reality. It's clear, though, that he is trying to find a lane for himself. There is a thin line between being loyal and being viewed as weak. Right?

And if he is trying to make a political comeback, what does it say about him that he continues to let himself be a punching bag from the former president. So, I think the determination was made probably by his inner circle. Listen, you have to say something. The time has come. This no longer looks good for you, if you are thinking about your political future.

[12:20:00]

KING: Trying to figure out what the power is going to look like a week from now. Let alone, six months now a year from now, just forget about it. So, why not just side with the truth? Why not just side with the truth? Let's continue this conversation in just a moment. Next Mitch McConnell picks a fight, even though he knows a fight might hurt Republican election odds.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[12:25:00]

KING: Senate Republican Leader Mitch McConnell is deliberately stoking an internal Republican Party fight, even though Leader McConnell very much believes the best path to GOP wins this year is for Republicans to stop internal party feuds and instead, focus on President Biden. McConnell aides, though say, he felt no choice after watching the Republican National Committee vote to censure two House members, two House Republicans in a resolution that referred to "legitimate political discourse" on January 6. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. MITCH MCCONNELL (R-KY): There was a violent insurrection for the purpose of trying to prevent the peaceful transfer of power after a legitimately certified election, from one administration to the next.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: Back check true, everything he just said. But the former president of the United States does not like that, Mitch McConnell speaking the truth. It was a violent insurrection with the goal of overturning a legitimate election. Donald Trump just issued a statement saying, Mitch McConnell does not speak for the Republican Party. It does not represent the views of the vast majority of its voters. The statement goes on. To repeat the big lie and say Mitch McConnell should have helped Donald Trump steal the election.

KUCINICH: I'm going to venture to say that Mitch McConnell doesn't much care what Donald Trump thinks or says. And he had this really interesting interview with the Washington Examiner, I think the published today. Where he said, you know, one of his - there's no one who can replace Mitch McConnell. No one's coming from Mitch McConnell's job.

Despite the fact that maybe some people look for it, no one has raised their hands. So, he's in a very different position than say, Kevin McCarthy is, who might have someone coming for his job. So, I think Mitch McConnell is just going to keep on - keeping on because I frankly, Donald Trump is the one of the reasons arguably, that he is not majority leader because of what - because of Donald Trump's role in the Georgia Senate races.

KING: Right. And so, McConnell wants to win Pennsylvania this year. Right? A Republican health state, now that Republican seat is retiring. Well, he needs to win North Carolina. He wants to hold Ohio. He's hoping to flip Arizona. He wants to get that Georgia seat back. And what McConnell's calculation is, is we cannot keep talking about the big lie. We cannot keep talking about Trump. So, he's picking this fight to try to end this fight. But this fight won't end?

MCKEND: No. Look, it's clear, he feels as though those states are absolutely within reach. And it's also clear to me that he is embarrassed by some of the theatrics going on within the Republican Party. But there is a limit to this rebuke. He is only going to go so far. I will say this though, Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell has been able to achieve something that the former president hasn't and that is be reelected, right?

He has kept the Republican Party in line for a long time and been able to deliver legislative wins for a long time, right? Former President Trump was only here for four years. So, I think that he is comfortable in this because he feels as though, he knows exactly what he's doing.

KING: And he's standing up to Ronna McDaniel, who's Trump's handpicked Republican National Committee Chairwoman. What my take on this is when you live in a lie, right? The big lie, Trump's big lie. If you're going to support that you have to keep lying, right? That's what happens because you can't tell the truth because you're supporting a lie. So, she issues townhall op ed trying to justify this resolution.

January 6 committee predictably has now vastly exceeded its original purpose, she says. I went back last night and read the resolution. No, it has not. It has not. The resolution establishing, the committee says, it's about January 6, but also the causes of January 6, which includes the plot to have fake electors, which includes fomenting dissent beforehand. So, that's another lie, because she's trapped in a lie.

MCKEND: Yes. She thinks that she has a better sense, though, of the Republican electorate then, you know, Mitch McConnell. So that is why she is continuing this. She's taking the pulse of Republicans across the country and feeling though this is the best.

KING: Right. So sorry, I mean, I thank you for saying that so clearly because I was inarticulate. She thinks that's the view of the Republican Party, which gets the challenge at the moment. McConnell has the courage to stand up and say, if you believe that you're wrong, it was a violent insurrection. They were trying to overthrow a legitimate election. We want no part of it. He has the courage to speak the truth, to try to tell people I'm a Republican leader. Please listen to me. You're being told lies by other people. Other Republicans not so willing to stand up to that.

This is Josh Hawley, this Republican Senator from Missouri, who fashions himself as a future president of United States. Whatever you think about the RNC vote, it reflects the view of most Republican voters. In my state, it's not helpful to have a bunch of D.C. Republicans commenting on the RNC. Whatever you think it reflects the view of voters. So, if the voters believe it, even if you know it's a lie, step back. Don't use your leadership or your platform to say, look, we need to talk about this, what you believe is not true.

KUCINICH: Former President Trump is still the head of the Republican Party. He continues to push the big lie. And so, those who are his minions are going to do the exact same thing. I mean, look at Ted Cruz, who had the audacity in January to call January 6, a terrorist attack on the Capitol, only to be taken to the woodshed by Tucker Carlson. And now is on the Hill saying, that you shouldn't call it the insurrection because it's something is Democratic talking points or propaganda. I mean it's people who are watching their political hides and not really caring to educate their voters.