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Inside Politics
McCarthy Mock Trump Indictment; Pence: Garland Should Address Indictment; Poll: 80 Percent Of Likely GOP Primary Voters Would Support Trump Even If Convicted. Aired 12:30-1p ET
Aired June 12, 2023 - 12:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
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[12:30:52]
DANA BASH, CNN HOST: Donald Trump is falling back on his witch hunt playbook and his Republican allies are playing right along. Just minutes ago, the House Speaker deployed some bathroom humor to discuss the special counsel's indictment.
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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Was that a good look for the former president to have boxes in a bathroom?
REP. KEVIN MCCARTHY (R), HOUSE SPEAKER: I don't know. Is it a good picture to have boxes in a garage that opens up all the time? A bathroom door locks.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BASH: Democratic Congressman Jamie Raskin joins me now. He's the ranking member of the House Oversight Committee. You want to respond to that?
REP. JAMIE RASKIN (D), RANKING MEMBER, OVERSIGHT AND ACCOUNTABILITY COMMITTEE: Well, it's the first -- I've seen that particular defense. But is he suggesting that these boxes of classified documents got up and locked the door after people left the bathroom? I'm not quite sure I follow the logic of it.
Look, the documents were unlawfully in Donald Trump's possession, which is bad enough, which is a violation of the law. But even when given the opportunity to return them to the archives to turn them back over to the government, Trump refused to do so repeatedly, and that's what he's being charged with. That obstruction of justice and playing that game of cat and mouse with the government.
BASH: You probably saw, I did an interview with your colleague on the House Judiciary Committee, Jim Jordan on State of the Union yesterday, and I want you to listen to the way that he defended the notion of the former president having these documents.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) REP. JIM JORDAN (R), CHAIRMAN, JUDICIARY COMMITTEE: The standard is clear. The standard is Navy versus Eagan, a 1988 case, unanimous decision from the course that Justice Blackman wrote the opinion and it said the President's ability to classify and control access to national security information flows from the Constitution. He decides, he alone decides.
He said he didn't classify this material. He can put it wherever he wants. He can handle however he wants. That's the law.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BASH: Before you came to Congress, you were a constitutional professor. What do you make of that argument?
RASKIN: Well, the president's responsibility under Article II of the Constitution is to take care that the laws are faithfully executed, which means that the president's control over classification must conform to what the law is. And certainly that's true a former presidents as well.
The case that he referred to Navy versus Eagan has to do with the Merit Systems Protection Board and to what extent. They have authority to second guess the granting of a security classification. So it's got nothing to do with what we're talking about --
BASH: So it's not even about declassifying at all, whether somebody --
RASKIN: No.
BASH: -- a president or a former president.
RASKIN: No. You know, he's just citing a sentence or two of dicta which specify that the president has power over national security under the Constitution. Doesn't say anything about a former president having a right to telepathically declassify information after he's left office.
I mean, even Donald Trump understood that he didn't have the authority to possess those documents. And he, of course, demonstrated his understanding of that law in 2016 when he said --
BASH: Yes.
RASKIN: -- he was going to emphatically enforce the rules governing classified material.
BASH: Former Vice President Mike Pence, who is also a candidate for president, said over the weekend that the American people need to hear from Merrick Garland, the Attorney General. Do you think that he should speak out or do you think it's better for him not to?
RASKIN: Well, remember, it's only in this Trump era where every legal case is just an opportunity for political demonization and vilification that they have tried to pull the attorney general and prosecutors into the public sphere for debate. And I'm glad that they have not been pulled there because this is a matter of facts in the rule of law in the courtroom. And that's where the definition of the law has to be elaborated --
BASH: But because --
RASKIN: -- and that's where the facts need to be mobilized.
BASH: Yes. And I hear what you're saying, but because Donald Trump is a candidate for President and whether anybody likes it or not, he -- this is also being debated and fought in the court of public opinion. Should Merrick Garland say anything in order to beat back the accusations that this is a political witch hunt that you hear the former president say over and over again?
[12:35:09]
RASKIN: Well, I think it's fine for the Department of Justice to spell out what its standards are for prosecuting people. I mean, I don't know anybody in the country who would say if somebody is being prosecuted for murder or rape or grand larceny or bank robbery, that if they file for office, they shouldn't be prosecuted anymore, or the legal system should be suspended.
That would be a roadmap for all kinds of criminals to hold their cases at bay simply by declaring for public office. So, no, you know, Senator McConnell said it pretty well at the end of the impeachment trial. He said that the criminal process will continue and that former presidents have to be held accountable there.
I disagreed with what McConnell was saying about how the Senate didn't have jurisdiction to try a former president, but he was absolutely right that the criminal process is still there.
BASH: Some of your colleagues on the other side of the aisle have started to escalate their rhetoric when it comes to mobilizing in response to what we're going to see in Miami. To be fair, the former president said explicitly that it should be peaceful. Others have too.
But other -- there are those who have used war metaphors and things like that. Is this something that you are concerned about, particularly what you know about January 6th, what you experienced on January 6th?
RASKIN: Well, I think the whole country understands what happened on January 6th when the use of apocalyptic and militaristic metaphors and imagery and language by politicians helped to lead to that scene of actual carnage --
BASH: Yes.
RASKIN: -- where people died that day. So I think it's incumbent upon everybody across the political spectrum to say, let's -- let the legal process work itself out. And there should be no violence leveled against elected officials, against prosecutors, against defense lawyers, against jurors, against anybody involved in the process. BASH: Very good advice. Thank you so much for coming in. Appreciate it, Congressman.
RASKIN: Thank you, Dana.
BASH: Thank you.
And ahead, the indictment is also drawing a line right through the GOP primary field. How White House hopefuls are getting even more divided as they search for the right way to respond? Stay with us
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[12:42:02]
BASH: Donald Trump swears to stay in the 2024 presidential race.
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ROGER STRONE, TRUMP ALLY: Is there any circumstances under which you could see yourself dropping out of the 2024 presidential election?
DONALD TRUMP, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: No. None whatsoever. I see no case in which I would do that. I would -- I just wouldn't do it. I wouldn't do it.
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BASH: Now Trump's Republican rivals have to decide whether to back the front runner or risk alienating his devoted base. The New York Times summed it up this way. The 2024 GOP field faces a choice, law and order or loyalty.
Back with me at the table is my colleagues. So I want to look at some of what the rivals have said. Those who are kind of trying to not say much, Ron DeSantis, of course, the person who was second in almost all the polls -- really all the polls. "We will, once and for all, end the weaponization of government".
Mike Pence, "In America, you're innocent until proven guilty". Nikki Haley, "People are exhausted by the prosecutorial overreach." Easy for me to say.
ABBY PHILLIP, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, I mean, they are putting themselves in a box and it's quite the box considering that there's such a long way. I mean, Ron DeSantis is the next runner up, but there's probably now in some of the most recent CBS poll about a 40-point gap between him and Donald Trump.
And these contenders for the Republican nomination are not making things easy for themselves by basically taking a huge swath of negative headlines off the table for them to utilize against Trump. You could argue that they have no choice, but I think we just have to be clear-eyed that that is what is happening right now.
This is going to be a candidate who's going to be running for the nomination with not one, not two, but possibly three and more indictments against him. And Republican candidates are basically saying, we are not going to touch it. And that is going to be the number one thing that will shape this race going forward.
BASH: There -- go ahead.
MANU RAJU, CNN CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: I was just going to say, they may be missing and really an opportunity to differentiate themselves from Trump. You know, they're trying to make this broad argument about weaponization and government, but they don't get into the real specifics and the meat of this indictment, which is not only about mishandling classified information, but about obstructing an investigation, about hiding, allegedly concealing these documents.
No one's talking about that. They're just talking more generally about it. And that's a comfortable place to be within the Republican electorate. But if they were to perhaps seize on some of the real -- the allegations here that paint Trump in a negative light, they could maybe make some headway from Republican voters who are not yet sold on the former president.
BASH: Well, let's put up the backdrop against which these other Republicans who are not Donald Trump are making these arguments or maybe not making these arguments. I mean, look at that. If convicted over classified documents, should Trump be able to serve again? 80 percent of Republican primary voters say, yes, only 20 percent say no.
JEFF ZELENY, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: So that is one of the challenges here. We know that Chris Christie is going to be leading the charge. We will see if any other Republican candidates sort of join him in that lane.
[12:45:04]
I think over the summer that will happen if they see, you know, some opening from Republican voters. Obviously, the majority support Trump, but there is a feeling about still that central question, who can best win back the White House? And is it Donald Trump or not?
But in the short term, when other Republican strategists for one of those candidates struggling to get attention said, this is going to suck up all the oxygen once again. Tim Scott's on the campaign trail today, we're not really paying attention to him. So I think as it goes on, that is why this is a challenge.
But we'll see who is bold here? Does anyone sort of have the, you know, the strength besides Chris Christie? Just say something about this.
BASH: Yes.
ZELENY: It's -- the burden is on them to really do the wise thing here not just a politically expedient one.
BASH: We have to take a break, but I would be remiss if I didn't say that Asa Hutchinson, who was on State of the Union -- ZELENY: Right.
BASH: -- with me yesterday, he went even further and goes even further than Chris Christie saying that this is terrible and he should drop out of the race.
ZELENY: Right.
BASH: He's sounds like a lonely voice on the campaign trail.
Nice to see you all. Thank you so much.
ZELENY: Thank you, and congratulations.
And up next, an icon who once occupied this chair. Judy Woodruff joins me in minute.
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[12:51:00]
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is Inside Politics with Bernard Shaw and Judy Woodruff in Washington.
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BASH: That was June 7th, 1993. Judy Woodruff's first day in the anchor chair of Inside Politics. She, along with our late former colleague, Bernard Shaw, made Inside Politics must see TV for knowing what is happening on the campaign trail and beyond.
And guess what? I'm honored to have Judy here with me today on my first day in this chair. Judy, of course, works for the PBS NewsHour now. So good to have you here.
JUDY WOODRUFF, SENIOR CORRESPONDENT AND FORMER ANCHOR, PBS NEWSHOUR: And I am so happy to be here to welcome you --
BASH: I'm having a kind of an out-of-body experience right now. I have to be honest.
WOODRUFF: All these memories come flooding back.
BASH: So many memories. What did you learn covering politics on this show for so long?
WOODRUFF: I think the thing that I learned, and of course, it was a very different era --
BASH: Yes.
WOODRUFF: -- and we were just saying that was 30 years ago, was it politics can be civil, that it matters a lot and that it affects every person in this country. It's not something that's just -- we spend a lot of time talking about what personalities are up to and who said what about whom. But in the end, it affects the American people. And I think for me, that was the biggest takeaway.
BASH: OK. Well, let's actually show our viewers some of the flavor of what you're talking about. I want to take you on a trip down memory lane, Judy Woodruff, from some of your shows in the 90s.
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WOODRUFF: It's the name that has spent more money than anyone has spent in Iowa in a Republican caucus race.
At the 1980 Convention, I was working for another television network at that time, and it was such a great story to be working on whether Ronald Reagan was going to pick former president Gerald Ford.
If you add up what he got in terms of a vote and what you got, and he asked you to get out of the race, he might have been the winner. What would you say to Bob Dole?
There may not be a war room per se, but White House officials certainly seem in full battle mode.
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WOODRUFF: Now, the hairstyles.
BASH: They were awesome, I was going to say. They were very on trend.
WOODRUFF: They started up here and they slightly --
BASH: Very on trend. You're always on trend. But it did see -- it did feel different. Are you optimistic that American can get even, maybe not back to that, but closer to that?
WOODRUFF: I am. I mean, as I think I suggested a minute ago, Dana, we are in a very -- we are in a tough moment right now in American politics. There's just a lot of mudslinging happening and people are angry. But, in fact, you know, people -- the two political parties were at each other's throats end, but it was just much more civil.
I mean, I remember covering Bob Dole and then Harry Reid going at each other, then Harry Reid called President George W. Bush a loser and then apologized for it. It was just a different tone at the time.
BASH: Yes. I was thinking --
WOODRUFF: So --
BASH: -- you're saying Bob Dole was -- is it, stop lying about my record.
WOODRUFF: Yes.
BASH: When he said that to George H. W. Bush, right?
WOODRUFF: H. W. Bush.
BASH: And it was a huge deal.
WOODRUFF: It was. But there were actually politicians apologizing about what they had said. So we learned a lot, and we covered big stories. We covered everything from 9/11, which of course, you know, consume what we were doing at this network for months.
BASH: Yes.
WOODRUFF: The Gingrich Revolution --
BASH: Yes.
WOODRUFF: -- remember that, in 1994.
BASH: We thought that was as crazy as it was going to get. I want to ask you, if I may, you're working on a project now at PBS, where you're going out and talking to voters and trying to find out if America can get across that divide.
WOODRUFF: And I'm finding that it's a work in progress. You're right, I'm spending these next two years with the NewsHour PBS traveling around the country, interviewing voters and experts about why we're so divided. Where did that come from? And I'm finding it's remarkable in a place like Oklahoma, where a 100 years ago they had a terrible race massacre.
They're still having debates over how to teach the history of race in the schools. It's a great education and it's a work in progress.
[12:55:08]
I'm always optimistic, Dana.
BASH: I know you are.
WOODRUFF: You know that. But -- and at this point, I have confidence with the American people.
BASH: Judy --
WOODRUFF: They're going to do the right thing.
BASH: -- it is really such an honor that you're here. Thank you for taking the time out --
WOODRUFF: So proud of you.
BASH: -- to return back to CNN.
WOODRUFF: Desk assistant to anchor. So proud of you.
BASH: Thank you. Thanks, Judy.
And I also want to remember Bernard Shaw who passed away nine months ago. He was a journalist, journalist. He led the way in being a good person, both on and off the air. We're really -- we really do miss him.
I also want to thank John King for reviving the storied Inside Politics brand about a decade ago, building it back to a show where viewers can get information from the best in the business.
Thanks for joining INSIDE POLITICS. Coming up CNN's Jake Tapper and Erin Burnett will have special coverage of the federal indictment of Donald Trump. Stay with us.
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