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Inside Politics
GOP Candidates Struggle With Trump Indictment; Biden Hits The Trail; Biden Didn't Mention Trump At Philly Rally; Trump Holds Commanding Lead In GOP Primary Polls; Hard-Line Republicans Threaten To Punish DOJ; Newsom Versus DeSantis. Aired 11a-12p ET
Aired June 18, 2023 - 11:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[11:00:34]
MANU RAJU, CNN HOST: Trump's new message.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I did everything right and they indicted me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
RAJU: GOP presidential frontrunner puts his prosecution at the center of his campaign. Is it what voters want to hear?
Plus, Biden hits the road.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Are you with me?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
RAJU: The president holds his first big campaign rally with a focus on the economy. Two words he did not say, Donald Trump.
And a taunt from Gavin Newsom.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GOV. GAVIN NEWSOM (R-CA): DeSantis was a belly flop.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
RAJU: And a dare from Ron DeSantis.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GOV. RON DESANTIS (R-FL): Are you going to throw your hat in the ring and challenge Joe?
(END VIDEO CLIP) RAJU: A new war of words between two of America's most prominent governors.
Welcome to INSIDE POLITICS SUNDAY. Thank you for joining us. I'm Manu Raju. Abby Phillip has the day off.
To my dad and all the dads out there, thanks for spending your father's day with us.
Now, we're still seven months from the first votes being cast in the 2024 Republican primary. But look at the airwaves this morning. And it feels a whole heck of a lot closer. Five presidential candidates gracing the Sunday shows today to make their case to voters.
But like it or not, there is one question every Republican contender must answer. Should voters look past a federal indictment of the front runner Donald J. Trump?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MICHAEL PENCE, FORMER VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I can't defend what is alleged. But the former president deserves his day in court.
SEN. TIM SCOTT (R-SC): Weaponizing the DOJ against your political opponents, I can't think of anything more un-American and more unacceptable.
ASA HUTCHINSON, FORMER ARKANSAS GOVERNOR: The cases don't get any more serious than what's been outlined by Jack Smith. I view them serious and disqualifying actually for a commander in chief.
VIVEK RAMASWAMY, PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Whether it was that FBI going after Martin Luther King Jr. or whether it's after -- going after political conservatives like President Trump today, that's not justice.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
RAJU: Now, some of Trump's former cabinet officials say the charges are serious, including former Defense Secretary, Mark Esper, this morning here on CNN. Esper says, Trump cannot be trusted with the nation's secrets.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARK ESPER, FORMER DEFENSE SECRETARY: Based on his actions, again, if proven true, under the indictment by the Special Counsel, no, I mean, it's just irresponsible action that places our service members at risk, places our nation's security at risk.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
RAJU: So let's discuss all this and more with Tolu Olorunnipa of The Washington Post, Leigh Ann Caldwell, also from The Post. CNN's Alayna Treene, and Amy Walter of The Cook Political Report. Well, thanks for spending your father's day morning with us all of you and lots to discuss.
Let's talk about just how these candidates are trying to deal with the Trump indictment or not deal with it or tried to ignore it. Amy, what do you think is the strategy for how these candidates should deal with it? Should they take it head on? Should they step aside from it? What is the most effective way in responding to these questions?
AMY WALTER, EDITOR-IN-CHIEF, THE COOK POLITICAL REPORT: Yes, I think everybody's trying to figure that question out. One person who knows what he wants to do is Chris Christie, which has just to come right at it consistently.
Chris Christie is also the least light Republican in the field among Republicans. So his strategy, while it may be effective at hurting Donald Trump, is probably not going to be helpful in elevating him.
As for everybody else, it seems like the strategy is let the weight of this start to sink in with voters. And instead of making it about, boy, Donald Trump is unelectable, because he has all of these legal challenges, and they're serious to say, look, two things can be true at the same time, Department of Justice has politicized what it does, this is unfair. And yet, it's going to be like this constantly, if he wins.
RAJU: Yes.
WALTER: So even if he wins, I'm not saying that he can't win. Sure, he could win, but what's going to happen? He's going to get into office and every day, the media, the Democrats, the deep state, they're going to hamstring him at every opportunity. Vote for me.
RAJU: Yes.
WALTER: I'm the person that can, not just win, but I can actually do stuff once I get that.
RAJU: Yes. Yet a lot of candidates are not exactly saying that. And so they're trying to almost cast doubt over these very serious, very credible allegations. And the question is whether or not it's going to be effective. And you look at just a national poll about where things stand in this race. Quinnipiac poll is showing exactly where things work June 8, June 12. What would -- who would you vote for Republican primary? Well, today was the question, 53 percent Donald Trump. Next closest, 23 percent DeSantis, 4 percent. That is the next pack after DeSantis and Trump.
[11:05:10]
I mean counting at those candidates who are -- they're having a hard time breaking through -- break through and is it about taking on Trump?
ALAYNA TREENE, CNN POLITICAL REPORTER: It is so difficult. And I've talked -- I've spoken with a lot of the campaigns this week and, of course, Donald Trump and his advisers as well about this. They have a very fine line to walk. And I think what I've been hearing a lot of through my reporting is to look at the, you know, primary election strategy versus the general election strategy. And a lot of them are focusing on the primary election strategy here, which is they do not want to alienate the Trump base, because they need those voters.
And so -- and I think we're seeing, you know, it's very similar on Capitol Hill as well. A lot of the Republicans are rallying to Donald Trump's defense, they're dismissing some of these charges, like you said, even though they're very serious charges, and trying not to, you know, step into a landmine here with Donald Trump.
And I think that's what we're seeing the majority of the candidates. Of course, we're seeing some leaning harder, Vivek, saying he would -- Ramaswamy, saying he would pardon Donald Trump. Others, not willing to go so far, but also not trying to admit that these charges are as serious as they are. And I think that's what we're going to continue to see.
And I know that they're all looking at the polling very carefully here. They're looking at the fundraising numbers that Donald Trump brought in. He brought in $7 million since news of this indictment was announced.
And so I think that they're still trying to figure out, OK, how can we message on this and show that maybe these charges are serious but also not go so far as to, you know, criticize Donald Trump --
RAJU: yes.
TREENE: -- outright and alienate his base?
RAJU: And some of them are just -- are trying to look away altogether on this, talk about Ron DeSantis. Like he is one of the -- we talked about six were on the air this morning, five on the Sunday shows, the candidates. Ron DeSantis was not. He actually avoids interactions with reporters, one-on-one with the -- people could challenge him often does friendly interviews.
He did speak. He's trying to instead attack Donald Trump from his right not get into the indictment, as he told the Christian Broadcasting Network earlier this week about the issue of abortion.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DESANTIS: Well, I appreciate what the former president has done in a variety of rounds. He opposes that bill. He said it was, quote, harsh to protect an unborn child when there's a detectable heartbeat. I think that's humane to do.
I was really surprised because he's a Florida resident. And I thought he would -- he would complement the fact, you know, that we were able to do the heartbeat bill, which I -- pro-lifers have wanted for a long time. He never complimented, never said anything about it.
(END VIDEO CLIP) RAJU: So he's talking about the Florida bill that would ban most abortions in the state after six weeks, something that could be certainly a liability to general election primary that plays different.
But is -- look, the indictment is going to dominate the news for the next year. And there may be other legal issues will come from Donald Trump, is it going to be effective just completely ignore it and try to attack Donald Trump on some of these other social issues?
LEIGH ANN CALDWELL, THE WASHINGTON POST POLITICAL REPORTER: We'll see what Ron DeSantis is trying to do like Alayna talked about is not anger his base. And so what's essentially -- we like -- I like to talk about lanes in primaries.
And what is essentially come to pass is there's two lanes, there's the Trump light lane, and then there's the anti-Trump lane. And most people are trying to be in the Trump light lane.
And then as far as the indictment is concerned, yes, it's going to be a constant roll of news about Donald Trump. And this is exactly how Donald Trump wants it.
Regardless of these indictments, he knows he is going to be the center of attention, the center of the media attention, and they are going to take advantage of it in every single way possible.
WALTER: But you're starting to pick this up too from voters and curious your reporting as well on the ground hearing from voters who are saying things similar to the, it's all a sham. They're setting him up. It's not fair. But maybe we should go with someone else.
RAJU: Yes.
WALTER: I'm going to look around. And so that I think is the challenge. You've got to be able to do both things is to say, all right, look, maybe -- if he gets there, if he wins, we love Donald Trump, he did great things, gets to Washington, he's not going to be able to get anything done because everybody's going to come after him.
Then you got to do the part two, which is, here's why I'm a compelling candidate.
RAJU: Yes.
WALTER: And thus far, we haven't seen anybody break through there. And Vivek Ramaswamy is getting some pickup, especially in some of these early states, in part, because he's exactly the not politician that Donald Trump is.
Who do these voters want? Somebody -- it's the whole can he win --
RAJU: Yes.
WALTER: -- is secondary to, somebody who doesn't seem like just another politician with his -- RAJU: Yes.
WALTER: -- polling memos and his very disciplined way of speaking.
RAJU: And I'm glad you mentioned the voters. In fact, we'll be hearing some voter's sound about some of those voters you're talking about later on in the show.
But, you know, one way they could break out here, these candidates, are -- is on the debate stage. Can they actually make the debate stage? There was -- there's a qualification list at the Republican National Committee put out about number of donors you need to get. You need to surpass a certain threshold in polling and state and -- or national polls.
[11:10:06]
The big thing though that is a point of contention is pledging to support the eventual GOP nominee. That is something that a couple of candidates said, yes, we'll sign on to that pledge, but don't expect us to abide by it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHRIS CHRISTIE, PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I'm going to go back to 2016 again, and say, I'm going to take the pledge, just as seriously as Donald Trump took it in 2016. I will do what I need to do to be up on that stage to try to save my party and save my country.
HUTCHINSON: You'd have to make the pledge based on the fact that Donald Trump is not going to be our nominee and you're confident of it. Therefore, you can sign a statement saying you're going to support the nominee of the party.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
RAJU: What do you think?
TOLUSE OLORUNNIPA, THE WASHINGTON POST WHITE HOUSE BUREAU CHIEF: This pledge has -- it seems to have a number of holes in it.
RAJU: Yes. How do you enforce that pledge?
OLORUNNIPA: Right. And we saw in 2016, that Trump wasn't too wedded to the idea of saying that he was going to support whoever the nominee was, and he ended up becoming the nominee, and it didn't become an issue.
But I do think a number of these candidates are showing that they are going to say what they need to say to get on that debate stage, because that is the way they break out of that tear whether at one percent or two percent or zero percent, is to get on the debate stage and -- stage and take Trump on directly.
And if they can show that they can do that, in their minds, they can get to the double digits, and they can become the Trump light or the Trump opponent in this field where they're the number two candidate and they're telling the other people to get out of the race. And so a lot of these candidates see the debate stage as the place where they can make that difference.
RAJU: Yes. If they can get there. And, look, there's still a long time in this race. I mean, just a little flashback, trip down memory lane. Look at polling from June of 2015 and June of -- and July of 1991. Donald Trump at one percent in 2015. Bill Clinton, three percent.
The people that were leading in this pack back then, Jeb Bush, remember him, the former Florida Governor 20 -- he was up in 2020, 22 percent at this time in 2015. Mario Cuomo in 1991 over Bill Clinton. So a lot is going to change.
CALDWELL: A lot can change and that we don't know. But the problem with this that's different, not the problem, but what's different now is when what was back then is that Donald Trump is already a well- known entity, right? He is already been president, people know who he is. Everyone has an opinion about him.
I think what's most interesting about the history lesson here is what happens with the rest of the candidates. Does Ron DeSantis maintain his 22 percent?
WALTER: That's right.
CALDWELL: Or does he fall?
RAJU: Yes.
WALTER: That's right. That's right.
RAJU: Big, big questions. And we'll be talking about not just the former president, but the current president.
Next, President Biden hits the campaign trail with a message on the economy. Can he convince voters it's better than they think?
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[11:15:35]
RAJU: President Biden spent the past week staying as far away as possible from the Trump indictment. Instead, he held events focused on NATO, prescription drugs, those hidden fees when you buy concert tickets and bridge repairs.
As the New York Times put it this morning, "As Trump battles charges, Biden focuses on the business of governing."
And yesterday in Philadelphia, Biden held his first official reelection rally, kept the focus squarely and what he calls an economic success story.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) BIDEN: I'm looking forward to this campaign. I want you to know why. Because you've got a story to tell, we've got a story to tell. We've got a record to run on.
We've traded 13 million new jobs since I became president.
Inflation has come down 11 months in a row and then continued them on. Today, it's less than half of what it was one year ago. Folks, this didn't just happen, we made it happen.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
RAJU: Great reporters are back with us.
So, Tolu, no mention of Trump or the indictment in this first rally. He wants to talk about his record, mean potato issues. He doesn't mind being boring. That's in his strategy. They're trying to make or shows a little contrast to the -- to the former president. But will it enough to energize voters in his base and will it work?
OLORUNNIPA: It's rare to see President Biden in front of thousands of people at a rally. He does not really do --
RAJU: Yes.
OLORUNNIPA: -- political rallies very often. So it was very interesting to see him in front of a large and enthusiastic energetic crowd, but not talking about Trump.
And one of the things that energizes the democratic base right now is not President Biden's record so much, but that he beat Trump and they need him to beat Trump again. They do not want to see Trump coming back into office.
And so the fact that Trump continues to do well in a number of these polls, the fact that he's leading in the Republican primary, that is what energizes the Democratic base. So I do think it'll be very difficult for Biden, for his campaign apparatus to stay away from talking about Trump.
And you've already started to see some people around Biden, including the First Lady, draw that split screen between what's happening on the Republican side, the chaos, the indictments, and then looking at President Biden's record saying that he's delivering for the American people. I think that's going to be the message that we have for the next several months.
RAJU: And this is the extent to which the White House and President Biden is trying to stay away from this indictment of who are my viewers of Special Counsel that this investigation is federal indictment. There was a grand jury of that. Voters of individual American citizens that were sitting on the Grand Jury voted to indict the former president.
They -- instead, you're hearing a lot of Republicans say it was Joe Biden who indicted the former president. But when asked specifically about that, that allegation, it was Biden that was behind this, this is how the White House responded.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Last night, he called his arrest, quote, the most evil and heinous abuse of power in the history of our country. And he accused the current president of having him arrested effectively directing his arrest. Your response.
KARINE JEAN-PIERRE, UNITED STATES WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: I'm not going to comment to that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
RAJU: I mean, can they let these attacks go unanswered?
TREENE: I mean, clearly, with the Biden White House is trying to do is show that the Department of Justice has independence from this investigation. Just as you were saying, Special Counsel Jack Smith is the one who has been leading this and Biden is nowhere near it.
But I find it very interesting that, you know, she didn't take that opportunity to weigh in and say, we are completely independent of this. And I do think -- I think you made a good -- a great point, Tolu, which is that this is going to be very hard for them to continue to ignore and try to stay away from.
I mean, Donald Trump, we just mentioned, there's other indictments coming. We're expecting the January 6 potential indictment there with -- in Georgia later this summer.
[11:20:07]
And this is going to be something again and again that President Joe Biden is going to probably have to answer too, given that Donald Trump, as of now, is still the Republican frontrunner. They are contenders against each other ahead of the 2024 race.
And so I find it interesting. I understand what they're trying to do. But I also think that there's going to be -- there's going to need to be some formal response to what's happening there.
RAJU: Yes.
WALTER: Except that -- they don't -- I would say, if I were in the Biden campaign operation is, everybody else is talking about Donald Trump. We don't need to talk about Donald Trump.
RAJU: Yes.
WALTER: In fact, if we remember the 2018 midterm elections, which were ostensibly about Donald Trump, no Democrats ran on Donald Trump. They didn't need their base. They didn't need to tell their base. Remember, Trump's in the White House, their base knows Trump's in the White House. They ran on prescription drug coverage. They ran on the fact that Republicans, right, had voted on this bill to repeal Obamacare. So this is what the rally was really about in Philadelphia. It was -- our basis, they know what's at stake. We need to talk to those moderates, those independents who right now are like, the economy is not so great. I don't feel so good about the job that the president's doing.
And it feels very similar to what the Obama campaign did in their reelection in 2012 when people were feeling pretty sour about the economy, and Obama's handling of it. They said, we're doing a really good job on the economy. Also, this person is going to do terrible, right?
RAJU: Mm-hmm.
WALTER: Mitt Romney is not the right person because he's a capitalist who's going to just look out for rich people.
In this case, the argument is, Democrats are on your side. That's why you have labor talking about. Here's the way in which -- we're looking at for little -- the regular person. Republicans are always going to look out for the rich guys.
And, Manu, you know, better than anyone if they're going to have another vote on taxes in the --
RAJU: Yes.
WALTER: -- in Congress next year --
RAJU: The White House is very excited about that.
WALTER: The White House is very happy to talk about that.
RAJU: They're going to make that Congress. I mean, look, the president -- we all know these elections turn on how people feel about the economy. This is how voters feel.
Despite the positive signs in the economy right now, and inflation not nearly as high as it -- as it was in -- looking out -- look at how voters view Biden's handling, 38 percent approve, 57 percent disapprove. So they're trying to make the case, but it's just not really resonating. But that's actually as highest in this poll since October 2021.
Now, listen to this also have some of the vote -- there's voters who actually are weighing, and I'm talking about how they feel about Biden's performance. We -- there was this market research from engages that did last week, they had swing voters in North Carolina, they spoke to them. These are voters who voted for Trump in 2016, Biden in 2020. None of them are very enthusiastic about voting for Biden again, but they might.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are there any scenarios under which you would take Trump back? Any plausible scenario? Any of you, no. Are any of you torn at all between Trump and Biden? Or it's like a 51, 49 proposition? Do you think you could possibly choose Trump? No. So I just want to understand, so all of you -- this is close to a slam dunk decision?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That's two candidates.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
RAJU: So, again, these voters voted for Trump in 2016 in North Carolina, Biden in 2020. They're not willing to take some back.
CALDWELL: Well, this is the existential problem when I talk to Republicans, although they think that the indictment and everything is going to help Trump in the short-term. They are very, very concerned about the long-term, especially if he wins the Republican primary, that it is all going to be about Trump and they will not be able to talk about the economy and talk about what Biden has or has not done well.
And so this is, you know -- everyone wants -- the Republicans want the election to be about the economy and Biden short fallings, but with Trump is the nominee if he is, that's a very hard option.
RAJU: Exactly. And that's why there are a lot of Democrats who are rooting for Trump to win the nomination, believing that it's going to happen, but they also were rooting for him to win in 2016.
And let's just remind folks what happened in 2016. There was a third- party candidate at the time, Jill Stein, a Green Party candidate. This is -- and look at the results in 2016 in some of these key states, Pennsylvania, Michigan, Wisconsin, Jill Stein wins a number of votes that go beyond the margin that Trump won in carrying those states very, very narrowly.
This time around, there is also a third-party candidate, in this race, a Green Party candidate, Cornel West professor, he's an activist, and he is running on this race and this is why he says he's doing it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CORNEL WEST, GREEN PARTY PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: The idea of putting all the responsibility on the candidates who get the fewest votes compared to the other big two is just a way of rationalizing a two- party system that has become more and more outdated and antiquated, both tied to big money and big military.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[11:25:16]
RAJU: Is that mean -- should the Biden campaign be worried about Cornel West?
OLORUNNIPA: They should be worried about a third-party candidate. I mean, Biden is going to be 81 years old in a few months. Trump is 76 years old or 77, as of the last -- this past week. And there are a number of young voters that feel disconnected from both of those potential candidates at the top of the ticket, and they are thinking about a third-party, they're thinking about staying home.
And so if you do have an energizing third-party candidate, especially someone who animates things that are happening on the left, that maybe they feel that Biden hasn't delivered on, the Biden administration has to make sure that they are speaking to younger voters, speaking to voters of color, speaking to their progressive base to make sure that they don't take them for granted, even if they go after some of these moderate voters that's part of --
RAJU: Yes. That'll be interesting to see if they decide to ignore the third-party engage in some way. We'll see how the polls turn out. We'll see with Republican candidate has one of the many, many questions left in this campaign.
OK. Coming up, Donald Trump puts his indictment at the center of his campaign, it may help him in the primary, but will it backfire in the general election?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[11:30:25]
RAJU: As Donald Trump prepares to face down not one, but now two criminal indictments, he's making his legal battles the centerpiece of his campaign. Now, just hours after his arraignment in the classified documents case, the Republican presidential frontrunner offered voters a preview of what a second Trump term could look like, including this chilling promise.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, (R) FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT: I will appoint a real special prosecutor to go after the most corrupt president in the history of the United States of America, Joe Biden. I will totally obliterate the deep state. We will obliterate the deep state.
(CHEERING & APPLAUSE)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
RAJU: Trump is also reframing the stakes of the election as not just a battle for his freedom, but for that of his supporters as well.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: They want to take away my freedom because I will never let them take away your freedom. It's very simple. They want to silence me because I will never let them silence you. They want you silenced. And I am the only one that can save this nation because, you know, they're not coming after me, they're coming after you. And I just happen to be standing in their way and I will never be moving.
(END VIDEO CLIP) RAJU: So you spent, Alayna, of the week up in Bedminster talking to the former President's campaign. Is this really how they envision their campaign? Is it really going to be the centerpiece going forward?
TREENE: I think it's difficult. There's a couple of things. I think definitely in the short-term, as Leigh Ann, was saying earlier, they do think that his indictment will be a political boost.
And again, they raised $7 million in -- after the news of the indictment, $2 million alone at that fundraiser he held at Bedminster at his golf club Tuesday night after his arraignment. But behind the scenes, there is some concern. A lot of his allies and his advisors have admitted that they don't want Donald Trump to be indicted. Sure, this be a political boost, but there are some real legal concerns about how this could impact his campaign.
So even though they're seeing this boost in fundraising, even though they do think that, you know, in the short-term they're going to have this rallying around him, as we're seeing, it's not very clear how this will play out long-term.
The other thing I just want to note as well, listening to Donald Trump, I spoke with a lot of allies of his as well before his speech Tuesday night. People like Andrew Giuliani, who was in the crowd, a former Trump administration official, and they were hoping that his speech would be more forward looking, that he would focus on his 2024 agenda items, that he would talk about being a leader of the Republican Party.
But so much of what he said was criticizing his opponents, criticizing Joe Biden, criticizing his 2016 presidential rival Hillary Clinton and special counsel Jack Smith, and not looking for it. And I think that is something that is like, I know when I talk to his advisors, they do want him to focus on the future.
They do want him to talk about what will he do with the economy and bringing down taxes and things like that. But he's so fixated on the past. I think that's going to be an issue that continues to plague him. Just knowing Donald Trump covering him for as many years as I have, he's going to keep hanging on to what has happened already and not laying out the future of what he could look like as a second term president.
RAJU: In the polling shows in the media and aftermath of the news of the indictment, where things stand under the race nationally and Trump's still the dominant leader nationally, we'll see how that changes as time goes on. And state by state, that really is what matters at the end of the day.
But I want to read a passage from what Steven Shepard, he's a reporter at Politico, the polling guru over at Politico talked about how this has impacted the race, or not impacted the race, the federal indictment of the former President. He writes, one might be forgiven for expecting the past three and a half weeks to have a produced a healthy shake up in the race for the GOP presidential nomination. Former President Donald Trump's leading contender entered the race, as
did a former vice president and the only senator running. Oh, and Trump himself was indicted for allegedly jeopardizing the government's most closely held secrets. And yet, the polls have barely moved.
WALTER: Right, because this is what we know about Donald Trump. As you pointed out, he's the same Donald Trump that we've always known. And I think there's this assumption that his numbers are ultimately going to collapse. Like, one day there's just some straw that's going to break the back and it's all going to go away. I think that we still need, if you're a voter, what they're saying is, we need to hear an alternative case. Why would you be a better choice than Donald Trump?
And if you're thinking, as his rival, that this is still very early. As Leigh Ann pointed out, Donald Trump's the incumbent. You don't just beat an incumbent because of one or two or three indictments apparently.
[11:35:08]
RAJU: Yeah.
WALTER: You beat an incumbent by making the case that you're a better alternative. We either think that this race has two lanes, or maybe that it actually is in three chunks of always Trump, never Trump, which is a very, very small group, and then the majority, which is in sometimes Trump.
RAJU: Yeah.
WALTER: And that's the key group of people that these other candidates have to find a case to make to those voters.
RAJU: And it'll be interesting to see the candidates decide to tap into the idea of Trump fatigue.
WALTER: Yes.
RAJU: That's something that a lot of voters we showed some of the focus group from in the last segment. There are more interesting comments from these Republican -- of these voters from North Carolina. Again, these are voters who voted for Trump in 2016, Biden in 2020. So they are swing voters, the type of voters that Donald Trump, if he's the nominee, needs to win this election. But a lot of them are tired with news of more indictments.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KEITH: Part of me says it's sad that a president is being indicted, but the other part of me says it's about time.
ERIC: It's embarrassing. It's a gross showing of a mockery of the most important position in our country.
DANIELLE: frustrated and exhausted.
MODERATOR: Not directed toward the prosecutor or directed towards Trump?
DANIELLE: Trump.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
RAJU: But again, that's the challenge for these candidates who are challenging Trump. These are the people who vote in a general election, not the primary. So how do you get tap into that when you're also trying to court the primary electorate?
TOLUSE OLORUNNIPA, WASHINGTON POST WHITE HOUSE BUREAU CHIEF: That's the biggest challenge that a number of these Republican candidates face. First of all, especially in the Republican primary, the population of Trump fatigue voters seems to be small and shrinking because, you know, a lot of these Trump fatigue voters were fatigued by family separation or by January 6, or by the first indictment, or the second indictment.
And it does seem like it's going to be harder and harder to pick off some of those voters because a lot of the people who are with Trump are with him through thick and thin at this point because they've been through a lot with him. And so it's going to be harder for them to make a direct case for why they should leave Trump and vote for them without taking on Trump directly. And a lot of these candidates don't want to do.
RAJU: And look, the Trump campaign feels that the legal team, they're happy with the judge they drew in this case, Aileen Cannon, someone who had ruled in their favor as they were battling over the documents initially.
We'll see how she does. She's relatively inexperienced, especially in something like this. But Democrats themselves are concerned about this. They are talking about this judge. Some have gone as far as asking for her to recuse herself.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. RICHARD BLUMENTHAL, (D) CONNECTICUT: I think there's a lot here for ordinary Americans, not to mention cynics, to doubt in the record of this judge. We have to hope that she'll be fair and impartial, but she has to overcome a presumption of some prejudice arising from her past ruling.
RAJU: Should she refuse?
BLUMENTHAL: In the total scheme of things, I'd advise her to refuse.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
RAJU: I mean, you're on the Hill talking to Democrats all the time. I mean, what are you hearing from Democrats? How they're viewing this case, how they plan to respond to this case?
LEIGH ANN CALDWELL, WASHINGTON POST EARLY 202 CO-AUTHOR: Well, right -- kind of like how Biden not responding at this point. They're like Trump has made the mess himself. Everyone knows what Trump -- people think about Trump. We are just going to stand back and watch.
Yes, there's some concerns with Aileen Cannon, but also, you know, Jack Smith hasn't raised those concerns. And I think that Democrats want to ensure that there is full faith and trust in Jack Smith.
Getting back to what we were talking about a minute ago about Republicans and where these voters think. This is an ongoing problem, especially with the Republican Party, just the difference between what it takes to win in a primary and what it takes to win in a general election. And that is what it's hurt Republicans for the past several election cycles.
And they're going to deal with it again. And Trump voters, the problem with other candidates trying to appeal to Trump voters is big picture. Trump has done such a good job in discrediting this special counsels, the 2020 election, the media, the Justice Department, everything else. So how do you convince his voters elsewhere?
RAJU: Yeah. And as we -- it has happened on the campaign trail. It's also happening on Capitol Hill, which we'll talk about next with the Speaker of the House, Kevin McCarthy, under pressure from his right flank, Republican hardliners, how will he respond?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[11:43:33]
RAJU: This week on Capitol Hill, I checked in with Republican lawmakers in both chambers to see how they were grappling with Trump's indictment.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM, (R) SOUTH CAROLINA: President Trump has every right to defend himself. I think politically it probably makes him stronger in the primary.
SEN. MITT ROMNEY, (R) UTAH: He has the right to defend himself and to put out real or unreal arguments. I don't think Donald Trump is going to be our next president.
REP. RALPH NORMAN, (R) SOUTH CAROLINA: They're picking winners and losers. You're guilty until proven innocent.
REP. DON BACON, (R) NEBRASKA: The Republicans should be standing on the truth and the rule of law. Nobody's above the law.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
RAJU: The gold now for Trump's biggest allies in Congress, punished the Justice Department, it and its leaders for the investigation.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. BOB GOOD, (R) VIRGINIA: Well, we should impeach Merrick Garland. He's clearly abusing the power of his position. REP. MARJORIE TAYLOR GREENE, (R) GEORGIA: I've introduced articles of
impeachment against Chris Wray for abusing his office.
REP. BYRON DONALDS, (R) FLORIDA: Why would we fund a Department of Justice to a certain level if what they're going to do is use that money to do political targeting?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
RAJU: Look, this is going to be a pressure point, no question about it, especially as they deal with funding the government and the Republican Party, divided over how to deal with Trump. So this is generally what some of these members are talking about here. Subpoenaing Jack Smith, that is something that it seems like it's very plausible.
The House Republicans may try to do. Cancel $4 billion for the new FBI headquarters. That seems like almost certain. McCarthy supports that as well. Blocking Justice Department nominees in the Senate, something that J.D. Vance is already doing, vowing to do the months ahead. Impeaching Merrick Garland, Chris Wray, targeting Chris Wray's salary, defunding Jack Smith's office. Probably a little bit less likely, but this is a major focus of House Republicans, right?
[11:45:10]
CALDWELL: Yeah, it absolutely is. This is how they are going to defend Donald Trump. They have this roadmap of how to punish Jack Smith and Department of Justice and the FBI.
Now, it's interesting, just take a step back. Lack of support increased for the FBI and the Department of Justice during Trump's administration. And now this is a common theme that Republican base voters tend to support, that the FBI is corrupt.
And so this is good politically for the base. But also, it's interesting where McCarthy has stood. He is saying that, yes, we will take back money for the new FBI headquarters, but he is not calling for the defunding of the FBI or any of these other antics because he knows that could also be politically treacherous.
RAJU: And not supported by a lot of Republicans, John Thune, the number two Republican, told me on Thursday he would not support any efforts to defund. But McCarthy is interesting, Alayna. He's got a narrow majority. He's got that outspoken flank on his right that has been pushing to move to the right, including with defending Trump. And McCarthy has come out in Trump's defense, including not raising any concerns about the fact that a number of documents, classified documents, were in Mar-a-Lago in the bathroom.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Was that a good look for the former president to have boxes in a bathroom?
REP. KEVIN MCCARTHY, (R) HOUSE SPEAKER: I don't know. Is it a good picture to have boxes in a garage that opens up all the time? A bathroom door locks.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
RAJU: Bathroom door locks. Look, this is the McCarthy, the moment he won the speakership on the 15th ballot, he walked out in the Statuary Hall and he said he wants to thank President Trump. He said he could not have won without Trump. So he needs Trump to stay in power here. And the interesting thing will be, how will he deal with it when future, potentially future indictments come down? Will he still reflexively support Trump?
TREENE: I think it's a great question from what we're seeing so far, it does seem like that's where the Speaker is, that he's going to continue to defend Donald Trump.
And I also just going back to all of these investigations and the threats to impeach certain, you know, Attorney General Merrick Garland and Christopher Wray, the FBI Director. I mean, this had always been the plan, even before the indictment, that Republicans had spent all of their time in the minority planning for when they would get the gavel back, when they would be back in power and be able to launch these investigations.
Of course, what we're hearing now and the rhetoric of the past couple of weeks going for defund the FBI and the Justice Department, impeach these different figures is a little bit stronger than we've heard. But they had always been planning to launch these investigations and to look into a lot of this. And, you know, a lot of it is also to help Donald Trump become president again.
And so I think that as we continue to watch these play out and watch Kevin McCarthy's rhetoric toward Donald Trump, I don't think it's going to change unless there is something massive that really, I think the entire Republican Party reacts to. It does seem like they're going to stay on his side.
RAJU: I mean, it seems like this is if they can't, they're still going to embrace him after this, what will they --
TREENE: Exactly.
RAJU: -- not embrace him after? But it's not just, you know, we tend to get a lot of attention to the most outspoken members, but there were a number of members who were flatly concerned about the former President's conduct and allegedly hiding the nation's secrets and questioning what he was doing with them?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BACON: We have somebody that has hundreds and hundreds of top secrets in his house showing it to unclear people, and then he lied about it.
REP. DAN CRENSHAW, (R) TEXAS: If he becomes presidents one day, then I'd probably have to comment on it. But until that moment, I'm not a spokesperson. And I don't know defense. I don't know him. But I also don't know excessive critiques either. REP. STEVE WOMACK (R) ARKANSAS: I have serious concerns about anybody
that has a reckless disregard for the handling of classified documents.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
RAJU: I mean, some of these members clearly are uneasy about all this?
WALTER: Well, and the first one you interviewed, of course, is one of the 18 Republicans who sits in a district that Biden carried. Those are the most at danger. And what Democrats are hoping to do in this upcoming election for the House is to focus exactly on this message, which is.
All of you were standing behind Donald Trump. Any vote you take that either defends him or goes to whether it's fund or attack the Department of Justice rule of law, that is a way for Democrats that they will say, this is a way for us to attach you to Donald Trump.
So you can say all you want about how much you're not part of the MAGA movement, but we will attach you every vote you take that is something that Trump supports or looks like it's backing Donald Trump. Which is why the vote on the debt ceiling was important for so many of those moderates, because Donald Trump said on CNN, let him default. And those folks can now say, well, we didn't listen to Donald Trump.
RAJU: Yeah.
WALTER: See, we're independent.
RAJU: Right, exactly. And there will be other issues where they try to exert their independence afterwards. But if Trump's the nominee, we'll see how they all will respond, especially those in sling districts.
[11:50:10]
All right, great discussion. Coming up, Newsom versus DeSantis, a new war of words between two of the nation's most outspoken governors.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
RAJU: East versus west, red versus blue. The Golden State versus the Sunshine State. California Governor Gavin Newsom and Florida Governor Ron DeSantis renewed their long-standing feud. Two prominent young leaders who many see as the future, if not the president of their parties. First, Gavin -- Governor Newsom, in an interview with Fox's Sean Hannity, Newsom mocked DeSantis for using Florida taxpayer money to fly migrants from Texas to California.
[11:55:00]
GOV. GAVIN NEWSOM, (D) CALIFORNIA: I'm a border state, Ron DeSantis is not. I know he's desperate to get in on the act.
SEAN HANNITY, FOX NEWS ANCHOR: No, because a lot of belly flop.
NEWSOM: Donald Trump is going to clean --
HANNITY: Is it fair that Joe Biden --
NEWSOM: DeSantis was belly flop. He will clean his clock. He needs --
HANNITY: I don't have a crystal ball.
NEWSOM: -- attention. This is a stunt. It's embarrassing, not pathetic.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
RAJU: You're the embarrassing one, DeSantis countered.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GOV. RON DESANTIS, (R) FLORIDA: He has a real serious fixation on the state of Florida. I mean, I think it's just bizarre that he does that. But what I would tell him is, you know what, stop pussy footing around. Are you going to throw your hat in the ring and challenge Joe? Are you going to get in and do it or are you just going to sit on the sidelines and chirp?
RAJU: Now, Newsom has endorsed Biden and will join him for a fundraiser in California later this week. And the DeSantis presidential campaign is now selling stop pussyfooting around t-shirts on its website.
And that's it for Inside Politics Sunday. Thanks again for joining us. Up next, Jake Tapper is talking with Chris Christie on State of the Union. Happy Father's Day to all my fellow dads out there. Have a great Sunday.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
