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CNN Polls Shows That 62 Percent of Independents Think Trump Should End Campaign After Indictment; Democrats Move 2024 South Carolina Primary Ahead of New Hampshire; ProPublica Reports That Justice Alito Took Fishing Trip With Billionaire Who Later Had Cases Before the Supreme Court; GOP at Odds Over Whether to Impeach Biden Now or Later; Feinstein Health Concerns Linger Weeks After Return to Capitol Hill. Aired 12:30-1p ET

Aired June 21, 2023 - 12:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[12:30:00]

DANA BASH, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: But my question for you is, since your whole strategy now when it comes to 2024, is to make sure that Donald Trump is not the Republican nominee. Isn't that messaging playing right into his hands?

GOV. CHRIS SUNUNU (R-NH): I think a lot of the media messaging is. I don't think -- the messaging...

BASH: Well, it is not the media, we are just playing what they are saying.

SUNUNU: Yeah, well, the message is, he can't win, right? It is not a personal thing between me and former President Trump or Chris Christie. He can't close the deal in November of 2024; he is going to lose to Joe Biden. And more importantly, he cost us seats, right? So we saw in 2022, he caught him and his message and his candidates cost us U.S. senate seats. They cost us governor seats. They cost us school board seats all the way down, because you have Republicans that have to almost explain why they might be supportive of the president.

We got to move forward. We just got to move on. I think the Republican Party has an awesome opportunity to say, we are about going forward, we are not about re-litigating the past, and getting rid of this trauma. We are talking about a plea deal. Anytime we are talking about a politician or a politician's family and the word deal comes up, all of America goes, "Uh, really? They get a deal but we don't get a deal?"

So, whether it is Hunter Biden, whether it is an indictment with Trump, whether it is the allegations of bribery against the current president, we are all just tired of the drama. And anytime we had a deal in the mix, it is...

BASH: So, Republicans should just stop talking about it, is that what you're saying?

SUNUNU: About Trump?

BASH: No, about the Hunter Biden plea deal.

SUNUNU: Well, no, look, I think America is frustrated with it. I don't think you necessarily stop talking about it other than to say what are you about. If you want to be president, you are not going to get elected because you are bashing on the Hunter Biden deal, so to say. You have to be president because you are going to bring fiscal responsibility, you are going to secure the border, you are going to do all these things that Republicans I think have a great record in doing. But you are not going get it by, again, just talking about politics and re-litigating.

You don't win by being against the other person, you win by being for something and inspirationally getting folks to galvanize, and none of these candidates seems to be galvanizing anyone on their team. They don't seem to understand how to do that.

BASH: Well, on that note, I know one of your big arguments, as I said, is that you don't believe Donald Trump, if he is the nominee can win in November.

SUNUNU: Yes.

BASH: In large part because he can't necessarily reach independents. I just want to show you and our viewers a part of a new CNN poll from yesterday. 27 percent of Republicans think Trump should end his campaign in light of his indictment. That number is 62 percent when it comes to independents, the voters that you need.

SUNUNU: He is done. You can't win. And that 62 percent, look, the trouble that former President Trump has in November is no one is on the fence about him, right? Either -- he is such a known political commodity, either you'd vote for him or you wouldn't. There is very -- few are actually undecided. So when 62 percent of independents say, not only we are not going to vote for you, but you need to get out now. That is a done deal for folks. And that's exactly what happened in 2022, it's exactly what happened in 2020.

I don't think he is going to lose because I just think he might lose in November. He is a proven loser with a proven losing message, with proven loser candidates. Why as Republicans are we going to do this a third time or fourth time and think it is going to turn out better this time? It is going to be the same story. And we have other really great candidates out there. Let's get them a short. Let's get them on the debate stage, galvanize about -- behind one of them. And I think if it is a one-on-one, Trump versus one other candidate, he will lose.

BASH: OK. So I want to ask you about that as well because I want to put back up the general poll number from yesterday with the sort of top line from all of the candidates who are in the race. You see that Trump is -- went down a little bit, but he is still way ahead of the person who is closest behind him, DeSantis 26 percent, Pence 9 percent, and so on and so forth. Your whole thing is getting behind one of the opponents to Donald Trump.

SUNUNU: I think everyone does, (inaudible).

BASH: When?

SUNUNU: Oh, there is plenty of time. We have not gotten to debates yet, right? So, you are going to have probably six, seven, eight, nine debates before Christmas.

BASH: You don't think, by then, it is going to be too late?

SUNUNU: No, not necessarily. Before Iowa, look, most voters actually don't make up their mind until about three weeks really who they are going to vote for, until about three weeks before the election. New Hampshire and Iowa, retail states like that, they still have to hit the ground, they still have to have their moments.

You know, I remind folks, it was a time ago, but no one knew who Herman Cain was. He came up with 9-9-9, surged to the top of the polls. Everyone thought Rick Perry could win. He had a tough moment on the debate stage and fell apart. Marco Rubio was surging until Chris Christie took him apart. So, there is a lot of game to play out here.

BASH: You have a super PAC, Live FREE or DIE. Are you going to use that at all to run ads against Donald Trump in New Hampshire and New York?

SUNUNU: No. Look, my message is -- going nationally, is trying to get more independents on to the team. Understand that we are not just defined by the presidential candidate if it were to be Trump on the top of the ticket. More young people or young voters, suburban moms, these are the constituencies we have lost in droves, and which is why we don't hold the Senate anymore, which is why we don't have more governors anymore.

So, we are trying to get folks a little more inspirational -- inspired and more aspirational for the opportunities for bringing those real Republican values, not Donald Trump's baggage, but Republican values of fiscal discipline and local control, limited government, individual responsibility, you come first, not the government. Those are great things that independents want to galvanize. We need candidates to carry it.

BASH: So, you are the sitting governor of New Hampshire, which for Republicans is still the first in the nation, primary state. But Democrats have said, no, they are going to go to South Carolina.

SUNUNU: Well, we are holding it whether they like it or not.

(LAUGHTER)

BASH: OK. So, that is my question. What will be the sort of consequence of that? Because the DNC, Democrats -- Joe Biden has said that he is not going to campaign there.

[12:35:00]

SUNUNU: Yeah.

BASH: And so, he won't see that as legit. I mean, would you effectively...

SUNUNU: (Inaudible). Look, New Hampshire is a place where it does not matter if you have a name, ID, or money. You come, you earn it on the campaign trail, a lot of (inaudible).

BASH: Wouldn't it be a sham (ph) primary?

SUNUNU: No, it just means they won't seat our delegates. It doesn't matter. The value you get, look, RFK Junior, right, who is a pretty interesting character to say the least. I have sat with him; he seems to be a nice guy. He is already polling at 25 percent to 30 percent in certain polls in New Hampshire. And he has barely even started. So I think a lot of folks are realizing, wait a minute, I can use New Hampshire as a launching ground to challenge a sitting Democrat president that most Democrats don't think should run for a second term anyway.

So, I just think it is an open door. We are going to have ours first, whether they like it or not. Don't even know if the South Carolina primary is going to happen. They didn't -- they didn't...

BASH: Yeah.

SUNUNU: ...hold one for Trump when he was an incumbent. They probably won't hold one for Biden. So there is just going to be a lot of political momentum behind whoever wants to challenge the current president through New Hampshire.

BASH: New Hampshire Governor Chris Sununu, thank you so much.

SUNUNU: Thank you.

BASH: And up next, Supreme Court Justice Samuel Alito pens a rare piece for the "Wall Street Journal" to get out in front of an eyebrow- raising report.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[12:40:45]

BASH: Supreme Court Justice Samuel Alito is now facing accusations of accepting improper gifts from a hedge fund manager that had cases before the high court. ProPublica released an investigation into Alito and this luxury fishing trip he took in 2008 with Paul Singer, a billionaire hedge fund manager who you see there on the right. ProPublica reports Alito rode on a private jet and paid -- that was paid for by Singer and that plane could have cost upwards of $100,000 one way. He did not disclose this.

After that trip, Singer's hedge fund came before the court at least 10 times. That's according to ProPublica. CNN's Joan Biskupic joins our conversation, along with Abby Phillip, who is back with us. Joan, can you put all of this in context as somebody who understands the court better than anybody?

JOAN BISKUPIC, CNN SENIOR SUPREME COURT ANALYST: It is the context because this happened in 2008. He did not disclose these luxury trips, but it plays right into what is very important and going on now. Public and congress have been looking at why the Supreme Court does not have a formal ethics code. Two things I will raise right away first. This is how Samuel Alito responded.

Ahead of time, he tried to preemptively get out ahead of this story, so he wrote an op-ed in the "Wall Street Journal" last night in which he said, "My recollection is that I have spoken with Mr. Singer on no more than a handful of occasions, all of which with the exception of small talk during a fishing trip 15 years ago. That fishing trip 15 years ago, it consisted of brief and casual comments at events attended by large groups. On no occasion have we discussed the activities of his business and we have never talked about any case or issue before the Supreme Court."

Now, he did something unprecedented here. Justice Alito went to the "Wall Street Journal" where he has got some pals and penned this op-ed to try to actually probably tamp down...

BASH: This does not happen?

BISKUPIC: Never, it never happens. To potentially tamp down criticism, but what it did was it called attention to all of this and it reinforced the idea of, I'm going to brush off public criticism, press criticism, members of Congress criticism, and I'm going to go to my chums at the "Wall Street Journal" to counter this. And what he did was he brushed aside, as I said, what he publicly had written, but also kind of minimized the appearance of impropriety...

BASH: Yeah.

BISKUPIC: ...that he seems not to understand.

BASH: And Abby, as you discuss this, I want to just put on the screen where the public polling is, when it comes to confidence in the Supreme Court, it has dropped pretty dramatically over the past several years.

ABBY PHILLIP, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT AND ANCHOR OF 'INSIDE POLITICS SUNDAY': There are a lot of reasons for that including the way the justices are treated by the Congress as they are being confirmed. But even if you took the situation completely out of that context, there are very few institutions of public trust where this kind of conduct would be acceptable, or where the public would find it to be acceptable. These are lifetime appointments of justices, who have absolutely no accountability. And the idea that, as Justice Alito suggested in the "Wall Street Journal" piece that, "Oh, how were my clerks supposed to know that Paul Singer was a party to some of these lawsuits?"

Well, how would ProPublica know? Because you look for it.

(LAUGHTER)

And that's not too much to ask. I do think that this really reveals a real issue with the court that it perhaps never had to grapple with because they haven't been covered quite this way in the past. But the fact that there are not rules around these things, I think most regular people would find that to be absurd.

BASH: And Joan, I just have to say, we don't have time to run the soundbite, but Dick Durbin who is the Senate Judiciary Chairman says that when they return from July 4th recess, they are going to push forward on a bill that would deal with ethics in the Supreme Court.

BISKUPIC: That is right. In fact, what he is saying is, you no longer can say trust us, we can police ourselves, because there have been incident after incident where it shows that they are not policing themselves. Different justices have different codes of conduct, which is evident.

[12:45:00]

And it surprises me that Justice Alito would take this extraordinary step to go to the "Wall Street Journal" to try to defend himself rather than going through the usual channels that have been set up at the court that obviously have proven inadequate at this point.

PHILLIP: Now, what's amazing to me is that Paul -- he does not even try to suggest that Paul Singer is a close friend, just someone that he barely knows...

BASH: Yeah.

PHILLIP: ...gave him a gift worth $100,000. I mean, that really does not pass the test (ph).

BASH: Something tells me that is just the beginning of this conversation of this reporting. Thank you so much for putting it in context.

And to impeach or not to impeach, Republicans are wrangling with that very question. Today, new reporting on what is going on in that debate and what the House Speaker told his colleagues, up next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[12:50:24]

BASH: Today, a Republican on Republican fight over whether to impeach President Biden and the question about the House Speaker's future. CNN's Manu Raju is back with us. Manu, I know you've been reporting on what Kevin McCarthy is telling his members about this behind closed doors.

MANU RAJU, CNN CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yeah. He's urging them to vote against a resolution that is being pushed by a conservative Congresswoman Lauren Boebert of Colorado. She has essentially plans to try to force the full house to vote on impeaching Joe Biden over his handling of the situation of the U.S.-Mexico border. Any member can force a vote by simply naming a resolution as privileged. And a number of Republicans simply don't want to go that route. They don't also want to be seen as defending Joe Biden, putting many of them in an awkward spot.

Behind closed doors, Kevin McCarthy urged his conference not to get behind this idea saying, what majority do we want to be, give it right back in two years and hold it for a decade or make some real change? And in talking to Republicans leaving that closed door meeting, many of them are making it clear their displeasure with Lauren Boebert's effort.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. DON BACON, (R) NEBRASKA: Yeah, right. I think in the end, it is going to be tabled. But it's not right. And I believe in team sports, you work together. And this is an individual that I believe is undermining the team.

REP. MAX MILLER, (R) ILLINOIS: I just wish that there would be more communication with our conference in terms of bringing a privileged resolution like this to the floor with a little bit more nuance and thought before we just rush.

REP. MARJORIE TAYLOR GREENE, (R) GEORGIA: What we need to do is we really need to have this argument here in our conference and get to the same place that our basis, where our Republican voters are, and they've had enough. They've absolutely had enough.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

RAJU: And that last comment coming from Marjorie Taylor Greene who supports the effort by Lauren Boebert even as she took a little bit of a swipe at Boebert saying that Boebert is essentially pushing a "copycat resolution" of the same one that she has pushed. But Greene told me that she plans to move forward on five other impeachment resolutions in the days and weeks ahead, including over Merrick Garland and Christopher Wray, the FBI Director.

So Dana, even as Republicans may try to beat back this effort, more to come by conservatives like Marjorie Taylor Greene, pushing to impeach more officials.

BASH: Yeah and it seems as though this is as much about testing Kevin McCarthy and his leadership as it is about trying to make a statement about Joe Biden. We are definitely going to have a lot more time to talk about that. Thank you for that reporting, Manu. Appreciate it.

RAJU: Thank you.

BASH: And ahead, we have new exclusive CNN reporting. This time it is about Senator Dianne Feinstein. That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[12:57:30]

BASH: And now, new CNN reporting that some of Senator Dianne Feinstein's colleagues are fed up and say, she's not up to the job. CNN's Isaac Dovere joins me now with his new reporting. So Isaac, you spoke to 20 members of Congress who represent California. What did they tell you?

ISAAC DOVERE, CNN SENIOR REPORTER: Well, actually, I spent a lot of time outside of the Capitol, tracking down the members because they were coming in, in our votes (ph). So I got their fresh, unvarnished responses and they said, they haven't talked to her for years. This is not just about her illness recently, but they feel like she's been detached, not involved. I said, what's the last issue you worked on her with? Most of them said that they couldn't even name one issue that they've worked on here with over five years, ten years in Congress for many of these people.

BASH: And I should say and you have this in your piece that Senator Feinstein says, "I absolutely don't think this criticism is fair. I do meet with California members, answer their calls and we regularly collaborate on bills," and so on and so forth.

DOVERE: But she said that in an emailed response instead of an interview, which I requested. She's a senator; a lot of senators do interviews all the time. She -- her office decided not to make her available for one, which speaks perhaps to what some of these other members are talking about, that they're just not getting the level of engagement that they're used to. One Congressman Jimmy Gomez from Los Angeles said -- I said to him, do you think Californians should feel like they're getting two senators' worth of work? And he said, well, they're getting two offices' worth of work.

BASH: Yeah. And look, this has been a discussion for a long time because she was out sick with shingles and then she has been back about six weeks. I have to very quickly say, I covered the Congress for a long time. I watched Senator Strom Thurmond with his staff, basically acting as senator, other senators who aged (ph) that were male.

DOVERE: Yeah.

BASH: How much of this do you think is that she is not a male?

DOVERE: Well, that's certainly part of what is going on here. And one encounter that I had over the course of the reporting of the story was Nancy Pelosi, I was walking down the hall with her. She saw another reporter who had written a story about Feinstein and she said think about all the people you've seen, all the men who have been in bad shape. I'm not going to name them but you know who they are. And so, that is definitely a factor here. Feinstein is an older senator, one of the women who was elected early in the senate and now is reaching the end of her career in the senate. That's part of what is going on here.

BASH: The Year of the Woman, 1992. Isaac, thank you for that reporting, appreciate it. And thank you for joining 'Inside Politics.' 'CNN News Central' starts right now.