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Tomorrow: Opening Statements Begin in Trump Hush Money Trial; How Do Republicans View Trump's Legal Troubles? Johnson Risks Future As Speaker To Pass Foreign Aid; Biden Hits Campaign Trail as Trump Hits Court. Aired 8-9a ET
Aired April 21, 2024 - 08:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[08:00:12]
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MANU RAJU, CNN ANCHOR (voice-over): Trump on trial.
DONALD TRUMP, FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT & 2024 PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: It's a rigged trial, and the whole world is watching.
RAJU: As Donald Trump makes history in the courtroom, Biden spends the week on the trail.
JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: He's coming for your money, your health care, and your Social Security, and we're not going to let it happen.
RAJU: How will Trump's case reshape the race?
Plus, an exclusive interview with Vice President Harris.
And Johnson in jeopardy.
REP. LAUREN BOEBERT (R-CO): This is embarrassing.
REP. MARJORIE TAYLOR GREENE (R-GA): He's doing nothing but serving the Democrats
REP. TROY NEHLS (R-TX): It's a slap in the face to America.
RAJU: New behind the scenes details --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Congress is finally getting its act together.
RAJU: -- as Speaker Johnson takes on his right flank.
REP. MICHAEL MCCAUL (R-TX): He did the right thing. It's a real profile in courage what he did.
RAJU: But will it cost him his job?
Plus, end of an era. Our exclusive sit-down with two Senate dealmakers.
ROB PORTMAN (R), FORMER OHIO U.S. SENATOR: You've got to lower the temperature, not raise the temperature.
RAJU: Will they support Biden or Trump?
You think Biden is to blame for the border?
SEN. JOE MANCHIN (D-WV): Where we are today, the crises we have, yes.
RAJU: INSIDE POLITICS, best reporting from inside the corridors of power, starts now.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
RAJU (on camera): Good morning, and welcome to INSIDE POLITICS SUNDAY. I'm Manu Raju.
The stage has now have been set for historic week. The jury empaneled at Donald Trump's first of four criminal cases and opening statements set to begin in about 24 hours. All a first for an ex-president now in the thick of a hugely consequential presidential election, as he stands accused of falsifying records in a hush money scheme to silence his alleged mistress before the 2016 elections.
Trump, of course, has pleaded not guilty.
The case adds a dose of uncertainty to an already tumultuous and closely contested presidential race. Now, Trump is required to come to court whenever it is in session and that trial could last five to seven more weeks. In the meantime, the former president has been on a rampage as he made clear more than about a dozen social media posts about presidential immunity and is ongoing trial. And that is just yesterday alone.
Now, Trump's weekday campaign has not been relegated to as quick speeches in the courtroom hallway in front of the press, rather than in front of rally crowds.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: This is an outrage that this case was brought. This is political persecution. We think we have a very conflicted -- highly conflicted judges shouldn't be on the case.
I'm supposed to be in Georgia. I'm supposed to be North Carolina, South Carolina. I'm supposed to be in a lot of different places campaigning but I've been here all day.
A judge wants to go as fast as possible. This is really a concerted witch hunt, very simple.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
RAJU: Now, it remains to be seen if Trump has violated his gag order with any of his remarks about the case. That's what prosecutors are alleging. And a hearing for that is set for Tuesday.
Now, let's break this all down with our great panel this morning. Seung Min Kim from "The Associated Press", John Bresnahan from "Punchbowl News", and Olivia Nuzzi from "New York Magazine".
Good morning, guys.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Good morning.
RAJU: A lot to digest. A lot to get through the course of this busy hour.
Olivia, I want start with you because you've actually been covering in the courtroom, watching Donald Trump as they began the jury selection process. What's been your observation about but how he has dealt with this, especially as they're raising some of these salacious details and they've gone through the jury selection process. How has he been dealing with this in the courtroom?
OLIVIA NUZZI, WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT, NEW YORK MAGAZINE: I don't think any criminal defendant is happy to be there and fairness, but he seems particularly not happy to be there. He seems to have a very difficult time sitting there and doing nothing all day long. And it sort of seems like he's chomping at the bit to get out of there, to the extent that he was reprimanded by the judge when he tried to jump up and have a seat at the end of a session on Friday and leave apparently, the judge leaves first. I did not know this and neither do Donald Trump.
And he seems very frustrated and depressed and it was interesting when he got to his -- when he was circling his rally in North Carolina last night, and he couldn't land and he told the crowd there that they would have to go home due to weather he kept apologizing to them and saying, I'm sorry, and he sounded very sad and I thought I've never heard Donald Trump say, I'm sorry before about any topic. It seems like he's struggling at an emotional level.
RAJU: We got a lot more time with him. You have to sit in the courtroom. We'll see how he continues to deal with.
Then, of course, there's how the voters will deal with them, which is of course the most important thing is we assess the impact that this can have on the election. I want to get really deep into that through the course of this hour.
[08:05:03]
Just a real sense of this from "AP" poll that came out just a couple of weeks, or right before the trial began. How when we believe that Trump acted illegally and look at the cases here, four criminal cases, of course, the hush-money case is the lowest among registered voters about whether they believe he was acting illegally in the case, and the question, too, how much were you paying attention to Trump's legal cases? Sixty-two percent and say a lot or some paying attention to Trump's cases. We'll see how much more than increases this trial really begins in earnest this week.
And then what then, of course, the big question. The outcome, the verdict, what happens if Donald Trump is convicted in this case. Here, 22 percent of independent voters say he is fit to be present if he is convicted.
Of course, though, he could be acquitted. I mean, the question on these polls is going to be convicted. There could be hung jury. He could be acquitted. He -- this could be the only case that comes to a verdict before, and that can have an impact. It just shows you the unpredictability of how this overall play out.
SEUNG MIN KIM, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Right. Right. And another fascinating point about that poll, you mentioned there's only about a third of voters who thought he did something illegal in this particular case, were close to half of voters think he did illegal, on the other three cases.
So you do see how at least in the court of public opinion, this particular criminal case isn't seen particularly as seriously as the other charges he's facing and, you know, in the district in Florida and in Georgia, which is I think partly why the prosecutors have tried to brand does not as a hush-money case but more an election interference case, to try to bring the gravity of this of these charges of what Trump is facing more to the public eye.
But I do think it'll be really interesting to see what happens if there is a verdict and if that verdict is guilty. Obviously, it could go through a lengthy appeals process as well. But, you know, of the pool that you mentioned, 47 percent of independents did say that this would make him unfit to serve.
We know the Democrats and Republicans are in their partisan corners even on that question. But we're really watching the independent its here, and 47, it should be a warning, should be at least alarming number for Donald Trump.
RAJU: And will his party abandoned him. That's another question until moment. There's really no indication of that. Many of them are aligning themselves with Trump has said that he is the victim of unfair prosecution.
I put the question actually did a lot of Republicans over the past couple of weeks, not just about whether the about the trial, but really about the underlying allegations about hush money payments to silence is someone who was allegedly having an alleged extramarital affair with. And will the enemy concerns about just the underlying allegations themselves?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RAJU: Does it raise any character issues with the former president?
REP. BARRY LOUDERMILK (R-GA): I mean, it's -- it's nothing that I would engage in.
SEN. CYNTHIA LUMMIS (R-WY): It always bothers me when politicians are alleged to have done things that are unseemly.
SEN. JAMES LANKFORD (R-OK): It's a salacious trial. It makes for good television on this. This is a throwback to the Clinton administration. RAJU: If he gets convicted, will you still support him?
SEN. THOM TILLIS (R-NC): They -- you know, you're talking about a hypothetical that we can talk about if it becomes real at some point, in future.
SEN. TODD YOUNG (R-NC): I've made my views known about these and related topics a lot of the year. So I don't have anything more to add, but thank you for the question.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
RAJU: Well, at least he thanked me for the question.
(CROSSTALK)
RAJU: Well, he is the one who does oppose -- not supporting Donald Trump yet.
But, just, Bresnahan, you talked to all these Republicans as well. Will there be -- if he's convicted, how will they respond this? You'll say, Trump will say he's going to appeal it, I would guess they're going to align themselves with Trump's messaging on the trail.
JOHN BRESNAHAN, PUNCHBOWL NEWS CO-FOUNDER: A hundred percent. I mean, there -- I mean, for better or worse, they're -- they have to stay with Trump through the election. I mean, their feet is his feet. So they'll just say, you know, if he's convicted, they'll say a partisan Democrat district attorney, Manhattan, pursued a case that the feds wouldn't go out. Federal -- Justice Department wouldn't go after and they got a political verdict in a political case, and that's it.
I mean, what Trump has done, you have to give him credit in this sense tactically or politically. He's tried to make the New York case about Bragg, about Alvin, the D.A. Alvin Bragg and about -- about the process. Instead of he was paying off a porn star in the White House as president of the United States. I mean, we don't get to that enough.
It's like -- then the other thing -- the other big thing for him that we've got Michael Cohen is the middleman and Michael Cohen is a very troubled witness, let's put it that way.
RAJU: Yeah.
BRESNAHAN: And, you know, it's a difficult case. You could see with the -- you can see with the jurors, what are these poor people who are going to have to sit in judgment of this? That's what was extraordinary to me from the outset.
RAJU: Yeah.
BRESNAHAN: And then I don't think the Republicans are going anywhere in this.
RAJU: As we look at the campaign, the impact on the campaign, clearly this is having an impact both on this calendar and on his money, just on the calendar? That this is going to take potentially until early June. And so, you know, Trump does most of his rallies on the weekends anyway.
[08:10:03]
So maybe it doesn't really have an impact on the rallies, but this is where were consuming his type.
And then on the money, just new numbers that just came out from one of his PACs about the legal fees that were spent, 3.7 million as total spent as of the end of March on legal fees. That's from his one of his packs. I mean, clearly, this is having an impact on the campaign.
NUZZI: It is. I mean, I've joked that it's sort of like the campaign in the court are sharing custody of Donald Trump, right? He's there on Mondays and Tuesdays. He's off on Wednesdays. He's off on weekends and he's planning these rallies.
I've noticed he is planning something in the tri-state area. It seems like they're trying to maybe contain in a little bit. He's doing one in wild, but New Jersey, you can go to the boardwalk after perhaps, feel like it.
And I don't know how he's going to have the stamina. And when your argument against the incumbent president is he doesn't have stamina and you are being witnessed hobbling out of court most days of the week, I think it makes it much more difficult to make that type of political argument against President Biden.
RAJU: Yeah.
Coming up, we have more to talk about what do play past Trump voters really think about his legal troubles. Will it sway their votes (INAUDIBLE) for them?
And new reporting ahead on Speaker Johnsons maneuvering to steal a massive foreign aid package to the House?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[08:15:27]
RAJU: The MAGA base and former President Trump are in lockstep on this point, they believe his criminal cases are grossly unfair and that he is the victim. But what about other Republicans and the wider electorate, many of whom he'll have to secure a win to over to secure another four years in the White House?
Republican strategist Sarah Longwell is here to help answer that question. She's the publisher of the conservative website, "The Bulwark", and the founder of Republican Voters Against Trump. And she's been holding focus groups of voters to hear their thoughts on all things 2024.
Olivia Nuzzi is still here to help us break us all down. Good morning, Sarah. Thank you for joining us.
So you've been running these focus groups. Can you just quickly explain how you're conducting these focus groups and just what your big takeaway is here?
SARAH LONGWELL, PUBLISHER OF "THE BULWARK": Yes. So I do at least one or two focus groups every single week. I talked to swing voters. I talked a Democrats and progressives.
But I really focused on sort of two-time Trump voters and people who are either, they voted for Trump before and they're out on him or swing voters who may be voted for Biden, but are backsliding. Like I really tried to figure out who is part of this election is going to be the determinant voter and how they're thinking about things.
And the number one takeaway that I have is there's this group called the double-haters, the double doubters, are the pox on both their houses, right? They are frustrated with Biden. Maybe they voted for him last time, but they are right leading independents, soft GOP voters and they're -- they're not loving the job he's doing, but also, they do not want to vote for Trump.
And so teasing out how that voter is going to go is of deep interests to me.
RAJU: Yeah, and that's hugely consequential. I just wanted you -- both of you to listen to Arizona women who you talk to, your group, talk to on Thursday.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
LORENE J.: The part that we need to know about Trump -- how many allegations, how many criminal suits have to come up before he is no longer somebody that we want to consider as running the country.
MARY L.: It's just a collective of all the cases. It speaks volumes about his character.
LORENE J.: It's bizarre that he's going to be on the ballot.
MEGAN R.: Exactly. It's insane!
LORENE J.: It -- it embarrasses me, honestly.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
RAJU: Now, again, these are Trump 2016 voters, Biden 2020 voter, swing voters in Arizona, Arizona women. It's consistent with the national polling on this issue.
"New York Times"/Siena College poll recently said, do they believe the hush money charges are a serious? Men, 45 percent, women, 70 percent of women who think that's serious. What do you think?
LONGWELL: So, here's what's happening with women on this case, is it reminds them of one of the things that they really dislike about Donald Trump, which is that they think he's gross to women. And so, for, I think men and even sometimes just for the broader electorate, one of the reasons they take this case less seriously is because oftentimes when people talk about it, they're saying porn star. And so everybody's like well, that just doesn't sound that serious. Sounds like one of Trump's antics.
But for these women, one of the reasons that they switched their votes from Biden -- from Trump to Biden back in 2020 is that they thought that Trump lack -- had bad character and created chaos and was gross to women. And so this highlights and reinforces it for them. And so they take it more seriously.
RAJU: And is the Trump campaign when anything about the fact that there are so many women voters were concerned about these characters?
NUZZI: They can't change his personality and they can't change his personal history that we're all deeply aware of. They are trying to focus on Bragg. They're trying to focus on, quote/unquote, witch hunt. They're doing their best to take the focus off of allegations about his sexual misconduct over the years. And in fact, at the hearing on Friday, part of the conversation is about whether or not it would be okay if in the theoretical circle stands that Trump does sit for a cross-examination, as he said, that he would if it would be okay to ask him about E. Jean Carroll about various things in his past related to sexual misconduct allegations.
RAJU: And so, Trump -- his martyrdom messaging is clearly working with a significant amount of Republicans, as something not to discount. Another set of focus group voters here, two time general election Trump voters for 2016 and 2020, but who voted for Nikki Haley in a primary this cycle. And what do they what did they think? About these charges in these various Trump cases.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
MARIA T.: This is stuff that happens every day with larger companies and things like that.
PATRICK K.: It seems to me like liberals in the country are saying Donald Trump's a criminal. Let's find a crime to pin him with.
JEFF G.: I think probably is the most serious is the classified documents one but then Biden had classified documents and even Pence ended up with class -- saying, oh, wait, I found one in my house, too, which it makes me think they're all rather careless.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
[08:20:03]
RAJU: What's reaction to that?
LONGWELL: Yeah. I mean, these are people who -- look, they're there, they don't love Trump. They voted for Nikki Haley in the primary, but they're still -- it just shows how deeply the narrative has penetrated among Republicans of all kinds that this is a witch on, that Trump uniquely sort of -- this is an attempt to take him down, that Democrats are after him, there's a two-tier justice system.
I hear this from Republicans across the board. And so that is one of the reasons that Trump has not some -- I guess, or maybe that is how I put it. He has some armor against these court cases which is just the general Republican frame that these are just politically motivated witch hunts against drunk.
RAJU: And just looking at them polls about how voters -- voters view this. But whether they believed these charges are some were very or somewhat believable, 73 percent actually believed that. "Reuters", that's "Reuters"/Ipsos poll about -- in his hush money case. But then the question is, are they serious? And this is consistent with what those voters you're talking to, 64 percent, still significant amount believe it's series, but it is lower than those other cases, those other three criminal cases.
NUZZI: So much has to go right for this trial to continue to the point where we reach a verdict. Anything could happen that could screw it all up, frankly, for the prosecutors. But if it continues, if it continues for several weeks, I think day-in and day-out conversation about Donald Trump in the courtroom as a criminal defendant, him being kind of pulled off of the campaign trail, not able to stay on whenever his message that he really has a message ever that he's sticking to. I'm still waiting for infrastructure week.
But he's -- he's keeping him tethered to the subject of his legal drama.
RAJU: Yeah.
NUZZI: I think that's going to have a very negative effect and people will perceive him as someone who maybe is a criminal.
RAJU: Yeah. I mean, the question is -- is this how voters will in a viewing this in November, if this is done by June.
LONGWELL: Well, I'll just say, you know, right now, there's been so many court cases. He has so many indictments that for the voters, a lot of it tends to be white noise. But as the case is separate out and people follow them individually, you could see these numbers start to shift as people understand this isn't about a porn star or even hush money. It's about the way he past the shifts --
RAJU: Yeah.
NUZZI: Yeah, I mean, the big narrative that this is all sort of embroidery.
RAJU: Yeah.
NUZZI: It's that he is someone who has no respect for the rule of law who thinks that there is a different set of standards for him, who gets away with things that a lot of his voters in his super base would ever be able to get away with. RAJU: Yeah.
NUZZI: And so, I think that is very troubling for him in near evenly divided electorate.
RAJU: Yeah, very, very unpredictable, great discussion. Thank you both.
All right, CNN will have special live coverage of the opening statements in former President Trump's hush money trial starting tomorrow at 9:00 a.m. Eastern on CNN and streaming on Max.
House divided and the speaker's job in jeopardy. How Mike Johnson finally evolved on Ukraine aid and what it could mean for his future with the gavel?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He's going to cause us to lose the majority at this point is completely de-motivated our base.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[08:27:15]
RAJU: Mike Johnson was not well-known when he assumed the speakership six months ago, as a staunch social conservative and a skeptic of more Ukraine aid, hardliners thought he would advance their cause.
But as he faces the realities of divided Washington, gets access to top-secret briefings, his views and tactics have evolved. My new reporting this morning with Annie Grayer, Melanie Zanona highlights how the internal GOP battle unfolded behind the scenes and why Johnson defied his right flank, all the while risking his job in a foreign aid package that includes $61 billion in aid to Ukraine.
And he was not afraid to call up House Democratic leader Hakeem Jeffries to get the job done. And now, hardliners are enraged.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GREENE: I think every American in this country should be furious. This is the third betrayal by Mike Johnson.
BOEBERT: I characterize Speaker Johnson's handling of Ukraine and all these other foreign aid bills as surrender.
REP. DAN BISHOP (R-NC): It's the way that they never prioritize center-right Americans' priorities, never, and that's where we've ended up again. And I think it's -- it's -- it is pathetic.
REP. ELI CRANE (R-AZ): It's -- honestly, it's tough to defend him right now.
REP. TROY NEHLS (R-TX): It's a slap in the face to America.
RAJU: Is he showing that he's out of his element here?
NEHLS: Well, what -- what is showing is that that, in my humble opinion, we are allowing Chuck Schumer to run the House of Representatives. And to me, that's very disturbing.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
RAJU: Now, Johnson was torn between those loud voices on his right and the pleas of help from Ukrainian President Zelenskyy, as well as many in the GOP. Plus, sources say a recent classified CIA briefing helped convince Johnson as did some prayer.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RAJU: What changed for him?
REP. MICHAEL MCCAUL (R-TX): Well, you went through a transformation, no question.
But also I think he felt the weight of the world on his shoulders and it really was falling on him and I was with him the night before he made the decision. He preyed on it. And the next day, he said, I want to be on the right side of history. And I think he will be.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
RAJU: Now since hardliners are still pushing to oust him, he needs Democrats to keep his job.
But despite this move on Ukraine, some on the left say they should not help a conservative speaker.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. GERRY CONNOLLY (D-VA): I believe that the Democratic base will have a lot of pointed questions for Democrats who vote to keep Mike Johnson in the speaker's chair.
RAJU: Backlash?
CONNOLLY: I think there will be a backlash.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[08:29:44]
RAJU: I mean, this has really been a fascinating moment. You really rarely see a politician evolve like this, just really in real time, typically people are dug into their positions, especially in this year of politics.
The one reason why he is in a bit of a pickle with his colleagues is the way the vote came down. A minority of House Republicans voted to approve Ukraine aid. There's 101 Republicans voted, yes; 112 voted no. All Democrats voted for it.
It's Johnson's deal-cutting over the last six months as Speaker that has enraged those folks on the right where there's government funding over on this issue of foreign aid bills, the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act and the National Defense Authorization Act too.
You've covered Mike Johnson really since he became a member. What is your takeaway from his handling of this?
BRESNAHAN: I honestly am surprised he did the Ukraine bill. I, for a long time, I -- my colleague Jake German (ph) and I, we would debate. Is he going to do it, is he going to do it? And, you know, we thought he wasn't going to do it. And then he would.
But Democrats in the White House all thought throughout this process that they were talking to Johnson, they're talking to his top staff that they had a channel to him and that he was listening to them. And that they thought there was a very good chance he would do it and he ended up doing it. So you know, I was surprised he did it.
I do think there'll be an attempt to remove him now. That's clearly going to happen. A motion to vacate is what the technical term for it is.
You had Marjorie Taylor Greene has already introduced this. She has several named co-sponsors of this. And will Democrats have to vote to really keep him in place?
I think I was talking to one Republican yesterday. It's very interesting to me the whole split inside the Republican Party. This Republican said there will never be another Republican speaker elected even if they are majority or at least in the next decade or two, without Democratic support. It just won't happen.
There will be -- Republicans will have to have coalition governments because they can't govern and have -- and be pure (ph).
RAJU: Yes.
BRESNAHAN: And you know, these guys want -- they want purity. They want to -- and they want to -- they want to fight it out in the election with their guys. They're as -- they're as angry as Republicans, and as Democrats?
RAJU: Yes, it's such a good point.
One of these congressmen is the leader of the House Freedom Caucus, Bob Good. He's actually opposed to (INAUDIBLE) forward to oust Mike Johnson, even though he was one of the eight who voted to oust Kevin McCarthy in the fall.
And a lot of people blame that vote in the House Republican Conference for the chaos and dysfunction. And really the outcome of some of the policy wins here I asked him about the -- all and why he is not pushing for my Johnsons of this and why he is not pushing for Mike Johnson's ouster. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. BOB GOOD (R-VA): We ended up selecting a candidate who has failed us. So that doesn't mean that now you should take this -- the same actions that you took in September when you are in a different situation.
This is not the time to do that because of the much more narrow margin, the much greater degree of certainty that the fact that I wouldn't want to select someone now that would be in my view probably the lesson desirable, not the best option perhaps, that would be an incumbent going into November.
RAJU: Now, what's interesting is that he is now being targeted in his own primary because of his actions and his moves and one of them is == who is going after him is a member of his own conference. Congresswoman Jen Kiggans who is actually in a swing district herself.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. JEN KIGGANS (R-VA): I think that there's a whole fraction again of our of our conference that I don't know why -- if they're here for the right reasons necessarily.
And you see what's going on the world right now. It's not safe. So it frustrates me when we have members of our conference who are isolationist, who don't believe in standing with our allies.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
RAJU: It's this debate over tactics and policy. It's the isolationist wing versus Neo-Con wing -- whatever you want call it. And its playing out and it's dividing their party.
KIM: Right? And you also wonder if the freedom caucus folks, the rabble-rousers, the troublemakers.
If you are also starting to learn the fact that when you go from a rank-and-file member to someone in leadership, you are almost inevitably going to change. And we saw that with Mike Johnson basically in real time, he goes from a rank-and-file member who oppose Ukraine aid goes not only as a leader of House Republicans, but the Speaker of the House, this constitutional role.
He gets access to all of this classified information. He learns over time that you have to govern if there is a majority of big majority of votes for something, you basically have to put it forward.
And I'm not sure there is -- there might be a few house Republicans who might not behave that way once they're in that leadership position but I feel like most would at that point.
But yes, that divider is certainly going to continue to play out. I mean, that is fueled largely by the views of Donald Trump himself. I'm not sure the opposition to Ukraine will be that strong if Trump himself weren't so strongly against it. But it is a long, it's a long way from party of Reagan that we've been
used to.
RAJU: Yes, absolutely. I mean Trump actually did not come out opposed to the bill which is actually kind of interesting.
KIM: Right.
RAJU: And also we know there was all this sideshow that was going on. These angry exchanges. I've never seen a conference devolve the way this has.
[08:34:51]
RAJU: And on the floor of the house earlier this week, Mike Johnson was essentially pinned against the back of the wall, according to our colleague, Annie Grayer, who witnessed he was taking fire from the members of the Freedom Caucus and then there was this exchange between DERRICK Van Orden, who's a member from Wisconsin, aligned himself with Mike Johnson on this issue. And Matt Gaetz, the leader of the charge to oust Kevin McCarthy.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. DERRICK VAN ORDEN (R-WI):: We call them "Tubbying" (ph). Actually it's kick rocks Tubby.
So the being Matt Gaetz is a bully.
Chip Roy is a bully, Bob Good is a bully. And the only way to stop a bully is to push back hard.
The majority of the majority, the vast majority of majority is sick and tired of these high school antics.
REP. MATT GAETZ (R-FL): The only thing I gleaned from it is that Mr. Van Orden is not a particularly intelligent individual.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
RAJU: I mean --
BRESNAHAN: I was standing next to you when you get out. I had to step away because I was laughing.
RAJU: this is today's Republican conference yes. I mean, and it's also you have to push back harder. It's just the tactics. And now the belief on the people who align themselves with mike Johnson is just ignore these guys, run over them, stiff arm them, push them to the side.
BRESNAHAN: Yes. But I mean, the point, a majority of Republican conference voted against this bill. They voted against the Ukraine bill. You had Jim Jordan, you had Jodi Arrington, Budget Committee chairman. You had Elise Stefanik, who is the number four House Republican, and a possible VP candidate. I mean, there are going to be consequences for Johnson here. We had talked during the week, there was a there was a thought that they could change the House rules to protect Johnson, but again -- he would need Democrats and we thought he was going to do that at one point and he backed off. And there were Republicans who were angry with Johnson for not doing it because they're saying, you know, this is part of the chaos in the House.
RAJU: Yes.
BRESNAHAN: And you're not doing it.
RAJU: And the question is, what does this mean in November. There is debate in the GOP whether it matters. One side says it does. One side says it doesn't?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RAJU: What do you think just in general like the turmoil does to your ability to hang on to power here.
REP. RICHARD HUDSON, CHAIRMAN, NATIONAL Republican CONGRESSIONAL COMMITTEE: I don't think it really is going to matter. Folks back home are worried about the fact that the things I need for the family cost $15,000 more this year because of Joe Biden and his policies. They're not concerned about, you know, fighting inside the house.
REP. THOMAS MASSSIE (R-KY): He's going to cause us to lose the majority at this point. He's completely de-motivated our banks (ph). He disappointed us in the conference.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
RAJU: Does it cost them the majority.
BRESNAHAN: Not Mike Johnson, but Donald Trump may. But Mike Johnson is not going to be the issue people could cost them the House or not. Yes.
KIM: Right. I mean the house typically goes on -- goes on the strength of the top of the ticket and I can't -- don't see why it wouldn't necessarily differ this year than in previous years.
RAJU: We'll see. Maybe Richard Hudson House GOP candidate (INAUDIBLE) chairman is right.
All right. Coming up, CNN's exclusive interview with Vice President Kamala Harris. While Trump's in court, she and Biden are all over the map. Their strategy on the trail and what they are and are not saying about their opponent, next.
[08:37:48]
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(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: When I look at the economy, I don't see it through the eyes of Mar-a-Lago. I see through the eyes of Scranton and that's not hyperbole. Thats a fact.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
RAJU: While Donald Trump spent four days in court this week, President Biden spent three on the trail campaigning in Pennsylvania. It may be a preview the next five to seven weeks as Trump's trial plays out.
And as Biden avoided talk of his rivals legal troubles, Vice President Kamala Harris is following suit.
CNN's Isaac Dovere just spoke with her in an exclusive interview. And he joins me now along with Seung Min Kim. Isaac, thanks for being here. So what's your big takeaway from this interview.
EDWARD-ISAAC DOVERE, CNN SENIOR REPORTER: Well look, I spoke with Harris in Las Vegas on Monday after a swing that took her Tucson to talk about that Arizona abortion law being upheld and really blast it.
There is no question. There is a sense of energy and looseness that's coming off her. She said to me, I find it very liberating to be out this way, right.
She's talking about that. It seemed what struck me in ways, her playlist at events is Beyonce's "Freedom" and then Aretha Franklin's respect. Sort of get both out of her that she's been looking for. And that's what she is playing into here. She is trying to establish herself obviously, in a better way for herself. But the Biden campaign has seen in lots of research that they've been doing.
And the way that they've been responding, the voters have been responding that on issues like abortion, on guns, and a lot of the things that are really important to the base -- legalizing marijuana, talking about student loans that actually voters want to hear from her more, even though they want to hear from the president.
And she's been playing into that.
RAJU: That's very interesting. And it's also, they have not been talking about this hush money case. They've been talking -- you mentioned abortion, you mentioned guns, you mentioned they talk about democracy.
This is not about Trump's criminal trials, even though that is consuming all the oxygen here and just getting a sense on the ads that they have been running in these, some of these swing states putting in Pennsylvania targeting key voters.
They've struggled with black voters. They're talking about the economy. This is one from Pennsylvania, just a couple of days ago.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I love to tell the story about meeting President Biden because when you meet him, this guy is as sharp as knife. They have nothing else to attack because they can attack the things that he's doing that are good for this country.
Joe Biden gets things done. That's just who he is.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
RAJU: But you know, the question is, do they talk about any of these cases. I put that question to one Senator Chris Murphy.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. CHRIS MURPHY (D-CT): I think most people in this country have already processed and baked in the fact that Donald Trump is a reckless idiot.
[08:44:42]
MURPHY: What this election needs to be about is the fact that Donald Trump is going to ban abortion in this country. The fact that electing him will be another gift to billionaires and millionaires who will get big regulatory tax breaks. Thats what this election has to be about.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KIM: Right, right. I mean, if you've been talking with Biden campaign aides for the last several months, they actually don't like talking about Biden's legal or sorry Donald Trump's legal troubles.
They feel that the more effective contrast between the two candidates is what Trump would do you actually an office should he be elected again.
So that is why you saw President Biden just really not engaging any sort of these questions. You didn't have Biden' campaign surrogates still out there and blast Trump over his legal or his legal problems with the trial starting formally last week there.
The campaign made some like you know, wink, wink kind of puns in their press releases but that's pretty much the extent of what they had engaged in because they really want to focus on what Biden himself is saying.
And what he's saying is, again, this is what Trump would do in office. This is why my policies are better than the other guy and you're going to hear that a lot, especially on Tuesday when he travels to Florida to talk about abortion,. It's going to be a big moment.
RAJU: That's what -- what do you wear with Harris. Harris, that's what she was trying to do as well yes.
DOVERE: And one of the things I get into the pieces that look, she has struggled with being vice president. We all know that. It's years of this, but she has actually adapted better to running for vice president the way they're having us target that fits her way of thinking about things better. She's got a structures, she's got a plan. You've got to plan and that
that fervor that's coming off of her now, I said to her, are you ready to take on whoever Trump picks as his running mate? And she said, I'm ready to take on whoever has the fill-in-the-blanks to do it. Right? Like that is where she is now. It's a much different. Kamala Harris that was there.
RAJU: Yes.
Interesting subject. It's a great piece, I hope you all read it. It's on CNN.com such as a great piece. I hope you all read it. it's on CNN.com.
Thank you guys.
Coming up. I come up with -- I caught up with former senator Rob Portman for his first Sunday show interview since retiring. And his former colleague Senator Joe Manchin, they have harsh words for their own parties and neither says if they'll endorse Trump or Biden. Thats next.
[08:46:47]
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RAJU: Bipartisanship is a dirty word in some circles in Washington. Just as Speaker Mike Johnson.
So I sat down with two long-time Senate veterans to discuss how they view their parties and what they believe has gone wrong.
Democratic West Virginia Senator Joe Manchin is not seeking reelection this year, and he just launched a new group with his daughter called Americans Together.
Former Republican Ohio Senator Rob Portman is working on his Portman Center for Policy Solutions at the university of Cincinnati.
Now I spoke with both lawmakers after moderating on that panel with them at the University of Chicago's Institute of Politics. They had tough words for their parties. And the top of their tickets.
But we began by talking about the changing makeup and views of the senate GOP, such as over Ukraine. Portman a staunch advocate, was replaced by Republican Senator JD Vance, who is fiercely opposed.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROP PORTMAN, FORMER GOP SEANTOR: We agree on a lot, we disagree on some. And one is Ukraine and we have a strong disagreement there, but I have a disagreement with other colleagues too on that just not just JD.
There are more Republicans now saying, lets allow Vladimir Putin to have his way and the consequences of that would be disastrous for our national security. RAJU: We talked Senators, about just the changing nature of the
Seante. Are you concerned that the moderates are being dropped out of your party.
JOE MANCHIN, (D-WA) FORMER SENATOR: what I'm really concerned about is if we lose the filibuster, you won't create any new moderns.
You will not having a middle at all? It'll be swinging from the left and the right. Thats not who America is.
That probably scares me more than anything. Every one of us should be ashamed of what we're -- what we're living through now in the 118th Congress.
Every time, we stop until this 118th Congress has basically produced about 500 bills that we could work on and agree on and pass some form of a piece of legislation -- 500 to 520. We've only passed 69 bills.
RAJU: Ehen you look at this Congress on the outside, are they doing their job?
PORTMAN: Well no, in the sense that Congress isn't doing much legislating and they've been rather dysfunctional. The border policy I think has become sort of the poster child of what I'm talking about that it's hard to solve policy issues these days because both the right and the left seemed to get some advantage from things being unsolved.
RAJU: You clearly disagreed with senate Republicans blocking that bipartisan border security deal.
PORTMAN: I think it was a step in the right direction, incrementally was it perfect, no. But let's face it, we haven't done anything since 1986 in this area. It's a disaster on the border to deal with the asylum issues they did, I thought was incredibly important.
RAJU: Did you think Trump just wanted this issue? That's why he killed this.
PORTMAN: Yes, I think that's part of it. Part of it was some substantive differences, but here's the deal. It was incrementally good for the country.
RAJU: Are you comfortable with him as the nominee?
PORTMAN: Well, it's not my decision to make.
RAJU: You're an Ohio voter.
PORTMAN: Yes. I mean, he's definitely going to be the nominee. I would imagine that he has a very good chance of being president too.
RAJU: Are you going to vote for him.
PORTMAN: Well, I'm looking at the policies.
RAJU: You haven't made a decision.
PORTMAN: I'm not going to vote for President Biden.
RAJU: Was it the right decision, do you think to impeach Mayorkas?
PORTMAN: No. My problem with that impeachment is that if you were to impeach somebody for following the policy direction of the White House rather than focusing on the White House, then you're going to have that happen again and again tit for tat.
MANCHIN: Make no mistake about it, I think Joe Biden has done as a bad job on the border. Now, with that being said then he's to blame for the border.
RAJU: You think Biden should be blame on the border.
MANCHIN: He made the decision. It opened up and haven't closed it down. He has to take blame for what is wrong. But as accepting it now to fix it. And then it's not being fixed because of politics. That's what people don't like.
RAJU: Are you going to vote for President Biden.
MANCHIN: I'm not going to go vote for President Trump and I've known Joe Biden for a long time. And it's not the Joe Biden I'm seeing today -- the way he's being pulled so far left by the administration.
[08:54:47]
MANCHIN: I want to see him take charge again. I want President Biden to be the president when he was running in 2020.
RAJU: That's not a yes or no. I mean, yes. Do you want him to win?
MANCHIN: I don't want Trump to win.
RAJU: So then I guess you want Biden to win.
Right?
MANCHIN: What's the point (ph) President Trump parent. I love my country too much.
Do you look back at the two impeachment votes that you had with Trump and regret any of your votes to acquit him?
PORTMAN: No. I mean, I would apply the same standard. In other words, press conference was not in office which I think is not constitutional, which I think is not what the founders intended.
RAJU: This was after January 6th.
PORTMAN: Yes.
RAJU: Have we reached the bottom of American politics?
PORTMAN: I think that the fever will break here. and I think that the parties, you know, don't represent the country anymore.
RAJU: shouldn't you have, you know, you're retiring. stuck around and try to fix the problem.
MANCHIN: I mean, 42 years, how long you want me to stay.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
RAJU: That's it for INSIDE POLITICS SUNDAY.
You can follow me on X at MKFaju. You can follow this show at INSIDE POLITICS. And if you ever miss an episode, of course, you can catch up wherever you get your podcast, just search for INSIDE POLITICS.
Now up next "STATE OF THE UNION" with Jake Tapper and Dana Bash. Dana's has guests include South Dakota Governor Kristi Noem, and Illinois Governor JP Pritzker.
Thanks again for sharing your Sunday morning with us. We'll see you next time.
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