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Biden Issues "Full & Unconditional Pardon" For Son Hunter; Biden Pardons Son Hunter After Repeatedly Saying He Wouldn't; Trump Previously Signaled Openness To Pardoning Biden; Jill Biden Says "Of Course" She Supports The Hunter Biden Pardon; Trump Pick To Lead FBI Has History Of Praising QAnon Conspiracy; Patel Endorses Aspects Of QAnon Conspiracy; WSJ Editorial: Kash Patel, The FBI And Retribution. Aired 12-12:30p ET

Aired December 02, 2024 - 12:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[12:00:00]

DANA BASH, CNN HOST, INSIDE POLITICS: Today on Inside Politics, family first. The mixed reaction from last night's surprise White House announcement that Joe Biden issued a quote, full and unconditional pardon for his son, Hunter, whom the president says one was unfairly targeted.

Plus, he's a conspiracy theorist who openly talks about getting revenge against Donald Trump's perceived enemies. Will Senate Republicans stand in the way of Kash Patel becoming the FBI director? Or confirm the man who promises to dismantle the law enforcement agency and rebuild it exactly how Donald Trump wants it?

And Democrats are looking for a new leader. I'll talk to someone who thinks he is best equipped for the job of DNC chair and guiding the party out of the wilderness.

I'm Dana Bash. Let's go behind the headlines at Inside Politics.

First up, a miscarriage of justice. Those are the exact words both Joe Biden and Donald Trump are using in statements, describing the current president's decision to give his son Hunter a sweeping pardon. Biden released a statement saying, in part quote, I believe in the justice system, but as I have wrestled with this, I also believe raw politics has infected this process and it led to a miscarriage of justice.

Donald Trump responded on social media writing, quote, does the pardon given by Joe to Hunter include the J-6 hostages who have now been in prison for years? Such an abuse and miscarriage of justice. Very different context, of course, but noteworthy because Biden appears to be taking a page out of the Trump playbook. Call out your political opponents as you bend some norms.

CNN's Arlette Saenz is in Luanda, the capital city of Angola, where Joe Biden just touched down. Arlette, I know you've been working your sources about what went on behind the scenes that led to this announcement last night. What are you learning?

ARLETTE SAENZ, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Dana, President Biden has said that he wrestled with this decision to pardon his son Hunter Biden. He said he ultimately made the decision as a father, but also as he firmly holds this belief that his son was maligned by Republicans and that many of these charges were politically motivated.

Now President Biden landed on this decision over the Thanksgiving holiday in Nantucket, Massachusetts, and he informed his senior staff, I'm told, on Sunday -- on Saturday night when he returned to the White House.

Now, just a short while ago, White House Press Secretary Karine Jean- Pierre spent about 25 minutes, fielding questions from reporters exactly on this topic. She stuck very closely to President Biden's statement. But at one point, she did offer one hint of what factored into this decision, saying that President Biden would not have pardoned his son if Vice President Kamala Harris had won the election before she backtracked on that.

Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voiceover): Do you think this would have happened if Harris hadn't lost the election?

KARINE JEAN-PIERRE, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY (voiceover): Look, I'm not going to -- I'm not going to get into the election. It is a no. I can answer that, it's a no. And what I can say.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voiceover): It's a no. This would not have happened if Harris hadn't lost the election? The pardon would not have happened in Harris hadn't lost the election.

JEAN-PIERRE (voiceover): I can speak to where we are today, and so I can't speak to hypotheticals here. Where we are today, the president made this decision over the weekend. He thought about it. He wrestled with it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SAENZ: Now, Karine Jean-Pierre did go on to say that she did not -- that the president did not believe that his political opponents would let up on their attacks on Hunter Biden, had he not pardoned him. But while she did backtrack on that comment, it lines up with some reporting from our colleague Kayla Tausche last night where she had said that sources close to Biden's orbit had started to get the sense that President Biden would be more likely to pardon his son Hunter after Trump won the election.

But certainly, right now, there are so many questions for President Biden, as he has really made a stunning reversal after months of saying he would not harden his center. He went ahead and made that move. And this all is lines up with the fact that the president had spent years on the political stage, arguing that he would work to maintain the independence of the judicial system. Ultimately, the president moving forward, stepping in to give this pardon to his son.

[12:05:00]

BASH: Arlette, thank you so much for that reporting. I'm joined now here at the table with some terrific reporters to dig into all of this, CNN's Jeff Zeleny, The Wall Street Journal's Vivian Salama, CNN's Manu Raju, and CNN legal analyst and former federal prosecutor, Elliot Williams.

Let's start with the sort of the legal part of this, and I mean, obviously it is legal. This is allowed under the constitution. Any president can give a pardon. But to kind of dig a little bit deeper, particularly into the question and the comments from the president that we've heard many times, which is that if his name was John Doe and not Hunter Biden.

The guilty plea, and then the potential sentence would not be nearly as tough as it is, because he is the president's son.

ELLIOT WILLIAMS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST & FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: It's hard to say for certain. Now, let's look at the data of the number of people that are charged with that particular offense. And we're talking about lying on an application or being a drug user in possession of a firearm. It's certainly not a frequently charged crime, and certainly not charged by itself.

Now, often that's the kind of charge that would be tacked on to something else, and you get the guy to plead guilty to that and make a bigger charge go away. It's really hard to look at these offenses and say that the fact that this was such a high-profile case didn't factor into the decision to charge him, right? And it's just a matter of common sense.

Now, it's still unlawful conduct, and prosecutors brought it to a grand jury, looked at it and decided to bring the charges. But as a matter of commonsense, Dana, it's just hard to say that this charge would have been brought if this were just an average guy on the street. It's literally hundreds of thousands of applications are denied a year for the kind of firearm offense, and a couple dozen of them maybe are charged, just not common.

BASH: Yeah. And of course, we should say that there was a plea deal that fell apart. And my understanding is, and my sense is that when President Biden talked about sort of the politics that played into this, he's suggesting that the plea deal falling apart was very much political.

Jeff, you wrote about kind of the full circle of Joe Biden and the kind of person, the kind of politician, the kind of legacy that he is leaving with this pardon and what it means.

JEFF ZELENY, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: There is no doubt that this will be a key part of President Biden's legacy. It's

impossible to see history in the moment. We do not know how high on his list of accomplishments and other things this will be. But as of now, he is leaving with this as a key part of his legacy, and it is a stained part of his legacy. And what I'm just struck by when you think of the arc of Joe Biden, the long arc of Joe Biden elected in the era of Watergate right after that. And now taking his leave from Washington in some 49 days or so, in a very different era. It's a Trumpian era. And some people who admire Joe Biden tell me this is a Trumpian decision, so they don't blame him necessarily.

But that does not excuse or change the fact that this may not be something that the Joe Biden, the chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee, would have done. This is may not be something that Joe Biden who argued for the rule of law, would have done, and it does have consequences many Democrats believe. Again, admirers of Joe Biden what Trump is trying to do to the justice system here. They believe that this sort of feeds into that and politicizes it.

But when you sort of step back, I think one of the hypocritical acts is that repeatedly, President Biden and his aide said he wouldn't do this. He would not pardon, so it's not just the pardon the blanket 10- year of 2014 until 2024, that is doing more than pardoning the gun charges. So, look, there is a lot of this, but at the end of the day, he was acting as a father above all.

BASH: Right. So, there's that, and you say it's certainly -- from a lot of perspective, it's a stain on his legacy. The other way to look at it is that the criticism, given where we are in politics right now, is a lot of pearl clutching, particularly from Republicans who are criticizing him.

And just Manu to remind our viewers what President Trump did during his first term. Just some of the people he pardoned, Joe Arpaio, Dinesh D'Souza, Michael Flynn, George Papadopoulos, Roger Stone, Paul Manafort, Charles Kushner, Steve Bannon, Albert Piro, Jr., who's judge Jeanine husband rather.

And just looking particularly at Charles Kushner, just as an example. This is a family member. This is the father-in-law of his daughter, Ivanka. He also, by the way -- Trump also this weekend, nominated him to a prime ambassador post. So, if I'm Joe Biden sitting there watching the Republicans, I say, give me a break.

[12:10:00]

MANU RAJU, CNN CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yeah. There is probably one reason why he did it. Now, Jeff is absolutely right, though, this is a stain on his legacy. I mean, when Bill Clinton did in giving a pardon to Marc Rich, of course, the donor to the Clintons, right in the eyes he was leaving office. That's also a stain on his legacy.

What you mentioned there for Donald Trump also undoubtedly a stain going forward. The bigger problem for Biden is just, they were dishonest. He was dishonest with the American public about whether he would give a pardon. He said pretty flatly right before the election, when he was interviewed, when he was still in the race, a couple months out, that he would not give a party. He said that repeatedly they would set Karine Jean-Pierre repeatedly to the American public.

So, that is also not only giving it to his son, and you know, pardons always look bad on a president, particularly if giving -- doing it for political favors or a family member. But what he said publicly, they were completely -- they were not straight with the American public. And people remember that.

VIVIAN SALAMA, NATIONAL POLITICS REPORTER, THE WALL STREET JOURNAL: One of the things that we have to remember, Republicans now have seized on this. They have been claiming, particularly president-elect Trump has been claiming, that the Justice Department has been weaponized politically. And they are now looking at this and saying, well, if Hunter Biden was subject to attack because of politicization. Why not the January 6 rioters? Why not other people?

And so, this is something that is definitely fueling that argument. Certainly, Trump seized on that yesterday, after the announcement came out with a posting on his Truth Social, saying that it is a miscarriage -- if it's a miscarriage of justice, then the January 6 riot. You know, he calls them hostages. Need to be -- need to be indicated as well.

BASH: And I want to just though play what Donald Trump himself said shortly before the election. He did not rule out him being the one to potentially pardon Hunter Biden. Let's listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HUGH HEWITT, AMERICAN CONSERVATIVE POLITICAL COMMENTATOR (voiceover): Will you pardon Hunter Biden?

DONALD TRUMP (R), FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT AND CURRENT PRESIDENTIAL-ELECT (voiceover): I wouldn't take it off the books. See, unlike Joe Biden, despite what they've done to me, where they've gone after me so viciously, despite what, and Hunter is a bad boy. There's no question about it. He's been a bad boy. All you had to do is see the laptop from hell. But I happen to think it's very bad for our country.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WILLIAMS: Look, what people should know is that the pardon power is vast. And I don't think people have a concept of how vast the pardon power is. It's in the United States, presidents have less power than, frankly, most world leaders. The one unchecked power presidents have is to pardon people unconditionally. And virtually every example that these folks have given today are examples of presidents that pardoned people that were unsavory figures in some way.

One we all left out was George H. W. Bush pardoning Caspar Weinberger in the context of Iran-Contra literally selling American weapons to adversaries of the country. This is how the power works. If you don't like it, blame Alexander Hamilton, who wrote it into the constitution in the first place. So, you know, whether it's saber rattling from President Trump about potentially pardoning Hunter Biden, he had the power to do that and may very well have done so. I don't know. RAJU: But I do wonder how Republicans will react to the Charles Kushner pardon from over the weekend. As nominating him to be served as ambassador to France, even though he pleaded guilty to all these charges back in 2005, really only getting the job because of ties going to like the son-in-law's father and Donald Trump, of course, pardon him, which got overshadowed by everything else that happened at the end.

BASH: Charles Kushner put in jail by Chris Christie, his prosecutor.

RAJU: Yes.

SALAMA: Yes.

BASH: Just real quick, Jill Biden, the First Lady of the United States, was just asked about this. She said she, of course, supports her husband pardoning their son. And you know, I was thinking as I was looking at the pictures of them over the weekend in Nantucket. They had just come from this annual pilgrimage to a place that is very special to their family.

Obviously, Joe Biden and Hunter Biden spent a lot of time together. It was a place that they spent with Beau, who passed away. And you just have to imagine that that time together as President Biden is almost walking out the door of the White House. He has this power. He sees and by all accounts, he -- Joe Biden has been very, very upset and affected by what has happened with his son.

I'm sure that that moment -- that set of moments, had an impact.

ZELENY: There's no doubt about it. I mean, Dr. Biden was sitting in the front row for one of these trials. She went every single day. She flew back from a trip overseas to go to Delaware to the trial. So, there's no doubt. The family moment over the weekend sort of set this into motion. And again, for Joe Biden, family comes first. He has said that repeatedly.

[12:15:00]

So again, when you look at the long arc, President Biden, yes, there's a lot of -- Washington has changed from when he arrived in every single way. One thing is not that's family.

WILLIAMS: But you know, the issue isn't the pardon, you know, it's a perfectly plausible exercise of the power. The issue is saying he wasn't going to do it. And having Karine Jean-Pierre out there once again saying multiple times they weren't going to do it. That to me, frankly, is the bigger problem than the actual pardon of his son (Ph).

BASH: Bu well, we will definitely hope to hear from President Biden about what went into his decision making to change his mind. You're right. All right. Everybody standby, because coming up on Inside Politics, we're going to take a look at some of the extreme conspiracy theories supported by the man Donald Trump has tapped to run the FBI. That's ahead.

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[12:20:00]

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BASH: Several of Donald Trump's cabinet picks are set to meet with senators this week as they gear up for their confirmation fights. Pam Bondi, Pete Hegseth and Tulsi Gabbard are all expected to sit down with lawmakers.

CNN's Kristen Holmes is in West Palm Beach, tracking the Trump transition. And Kristen, this is Pete Hegseth's second trip to Capitol Hill. What does that tell us?

KRISTEN HOLMES, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: That's right, Dana. And we know there are a lot of questions as to whether or not Hegseth can actually get confirmed. Obviously, we know now about the alleged assault. We know that the Trump team was surprised by that, and over the weekend, the New York Times reporting that in 2018 Hegseth's own mother wrote him an email, essentially chastising him for his treatment of women.

Now she has since apologized. She said that she didn't mean to send that email. She defended Hegseth. But this is just another layer on whether or not Hegseth can actually get conformed or even make it to a confirmation hearing and out of committee, something we'll be watching closely.

Now, of course, Dana, this comes after Donald Trump named Kash Patel to be the head of the FBI. Another increasingly controversial figure, somebody who is considered a MAGA loyalist, somebody who is considered -- somebody who would destroy or gut the complete FBI as it is a whole.

We've heard a lot of bipartisan controversy over Kash Patel being named. We'll have to watch that to see when he's going to be up on the Hill as well. That's another one that could prove difficult for the president-elect.

BASH: Kristen, thank you so much for that. And back here, I want to talk a little bit more about Kash Patel, because this is another big nominee that happened over the weekend. And you know, we've heard a lot about Patel and what he has said that he wants to do with regard to the Justice Department, with regard to the president's -- soon to be president against perceived enemies.

But it's so much more than that. The conspiracy theories that he has espoused, I mean, it is really important for people to understand that. It has to do with QAnon. And before I play this sound bite, I want you to understand that QAnon's main conspiracy theories, for those who don't remember this.

Claim that a cabal of dozens of politicians and a list celebrities work in tandem with governments around the globe to engage in child abuse and sex trafficking. This is the part of the conspiracy theory. The other, of course, is that there is a whole deep state that is involved in trying to take down Donald Trump. And they believed, after 2020 Q, the person who started QAnon, convinced his followers that Donald Trump would be reinstated.

So, knowing all of that. Listen to what Kash Patel has said about Q.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Q has been so right on so many things. I'll get off that subject.

KASH PATEL, TRUMP PROPOSED FBI DIRECTOR NOMINEE: No, he has. And I agree with you. He has. He has. And you got to take a -- you got to harness that following that that Q has garnered. And just sort of tweak it a little bit. That's all I'm saying. And we will go out and find the conspirators, not just in government, but in the media.

Yes, we're going to come after the people in the media who lied about American citizens who helped Joe Biden rigged presidential elections. We're going to come after you, whether it's criminal or civilly, we'll figure that out.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BASH: You have been covering Donald Trump for a while. Obviously, you are very knowledgeable about QAnon and about all of these other conspiracy theories that Kash Patel has espoused. Obviously, this is going to be a pretty big part of his confirmation hearing, assuming he gets there.

SALAMA: Absolutely. Actually, I covered the National Security Council under Trump and Kash Patel was a fringe figure on that National Security Council, and he used to raise concern among his colleagues, where they would constantly say that he was inexperienced, would be espousing all kinds of conspiracy theories.

He would circumnavigate the sort of normal procedures that needed to happen to get access to Trump and put ideas into the president -- then president's head. And so, they are very worried, and that's just the least of it. I mean, you heard him calling journalists essentially traitors. He routinely sues reporters just on the basis of writing about him in ways that are very truthful.

[12:25:00]

He has said that he wants to conduct comprehensive House keep cleaning of government agencies and routinely talks about the deep state, including in a book that he put out last year. And so, this is someone who Republicans are even very concerned about. And I did a deep dive yesterday, it's in the Wall Street Journal today about Kash Patel.

And I literally had transition officials, reaching out to me after it published, saying, thank you for saying what we can't say publicly.

BASH: Wow.

SALAMA: Because they are so concerned about this choice. But the fact of the matter is, Kash over these years has built this relationship with Donald Trump, where even though there were other candidates. He has established that sense of loyalty and trust with Trump that he ultimately won out over the other picks, despite Trump's aides telling him this was a problematic choice.

BASH: So, you did the reporting on the reporting pages of The Wall Street Journal. On the editorial page, the conservative Wall Street Journal said the following. The main concern is Mr. Patel's stated desire to use power in a second Trump term to seek revenge against Mr. Trump's opponents. Does Mr. Patel still want to unleash the FBI on Democrats and media critics, a la Hoover? Down that road lies no end of political trouble for Republicans and the Trump presidency, as the effort is sure to backfire.

WILLIAMS: You know, both this quote and Vivian's reporting are touching on an important point, which is why FBI directors normally are supposed to serve 10-year terms. They are supposed to -- at least, under the law, traverse presidencies. Even if a president is elected twice, he's going -- you know, the FBI director will serve two different presidents to avoid this kind of loyalty peddling and putting loyalists in to conduct and run law enforcement.

And so, this is a big problem. Set aside whatever anybody thinks about QAnon the specific beliefs. The idea that the president is installing one of his guys into the nation's law enforcement apparatus is a big, big problem and a huge departure from where we've been before.

BASH: And we should -- you're totally right. This was -- it is supposed to be a 10-year term in order to insulate the FBI director from politics. If, in fact, Donald Trump does get it in fire, Chris Wray, which it seems like he definitely will. We should remind our viewers. Chris Wray was his pick. Donald Trump chose Christopher Wray to be in there, and it's because he fired the other FBI director.

WILLIAMS: Also, both of them Republic.

BASH: Both of them Republicans.

WILLIAMS: And Wray and (inaudible).

BASH: And so, you're going to be covering how this plays in the United States Senate. I just want to play what Mike Rounds, Republican of South Dakota said about this pick.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. MIKE ROUNDS (R-SD): Chris Wray, who the president nominated the first time around, and I think the president picked a very good man to be the director of the FBI. When he did that in his first term. When we meet with him behind closed doors, I've had no objections to the way that he's handled himself.

The president gets, you know, the benefit of the doubt on the nomination, but we still go through a process, and that process includes advice and consent, which for the Senate means advice or consent sometimes so. RAJU: I think we're going to hear a lot of that. I think there are a lot of Republicans in that wing of the party, more establishment wing of the Republican Party, who don't want Chris Wray to be pushed out? Yes, there are those folks, MAGA -- more MAGA Republicans in the Senate GOP conference, who want Wray to be gone. So that's going to be a big question.

It's going to be our -- it will be a hurdle. This is going to be a fight to get him through. Democrats almost certainly vote against him in party line. That means he can only lose three Republicans max to get him over the finish line.

I could think of him more than a handful who would have serious reservations about voting for him. But then what does Trump do if he fires Christopher Wray. Does he then install Patel as an acting FBI director?

ZELENY: And Steve Bannon is all behind Kash Patel, I mean outside sort of Trump movement is as well. So that is why this is going to be a tough decision for some of these Republican senators. But let's think, the FBI director, they're also in charge of threats facing the country. So, this is not a hypothetical exercise. I mean, this is a very important position here. So, we will see, and the senators will obviously take it very seriously.

SALAMA: Also, the big issue about political capital and the other problematic nominees, and whether or not they're willing to stick their necks out for Kash Patel or not.

BASH: Yeah. Manu, that's a good point. Thank you all. Don't go anywhere. Coming up a stunning move by Syrian rebels and the biggest challenge to Bashar al-Assad's power. Those rebels are now in control of Syria's second largest city. The latest next.

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