Return to Transcripts main page
Inside Politics
Dems To Push Change Maps In Blue States If Texas Changes Theirs; How Rubio Went From "Little Marco" To Trusted Adviser; Ambitious Democrats Take Their Messages To South Carolina; Democrats Seize On MAGA Divide Over Epstein. Aired 12:30-1p ET
Aired July 21, 2025 - 12:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[12:30:00]
DAVID WEIGEL, POLITICS REPORTER, SEMAFOR: -- what that means in states is that Democrats are the party that would often support a non- partisan redistricting commission, as they did in California, as they did in Michigan. They would take themselves off the board with the expectation, one, those maps would be easier to protect in a tough year, which they mostly have been, and two, we're going to be the party, the Democrats, that doesn't rig maps.
And now they're saying, well, maybe we are. Maybe we're going to be more like JB Pritzker in Illinois, and every two years voters, whether they like it or not, are voting for who's going to draw the next map. That's been the case in North Carolina, which a lot of them will point to. What's been the downside for Republicans of gerrymandering North Carolina? Well, they have three more seats. There is no downside, so.
MANU RAJU, CNN ANCHOR: Yes, and these are the Democratic seats that there are states that are now looking at potentially changing their maps. You heard Jeffries refer to New York, but also New Jersey. He also told me about New Jersey as a possibility. We're also hearing about Minnesota and Washington State. California is at the core of this too.
I asked a number of Democrats about this. Would you support fight -- doing what Republicans are doing in Texas and some of these other states?
(BEGIN VIDEOCLIP)
RAJU: Do you encourage your party leaders to look at redrawing the maps in those states?
REP. MARC VEASEY (D), TEXAS: Yes. Hell, yes, I would encourage us to do that. We -- I don't think that -- I think you have to. You just can't say Trump can just do whatever he wants to do.
REP. ALEXANDRIA OCASIO-CORTEZ (D), NEW YORK: If Republicans want to play by these rules, then I think that we shouldn't have one set of rules for one and the other set of rules for another. I think we need to even a playing board.
REP. LIZZIE FLETCHER (D), TEXAS: These are not normal times. These are extraordinary times, and we should not bring a knife to a gunfight.
(END VIDEOCLIP)
RAJU: And two of those Democrats there, Lizzie Fletcher and Marc Veasey, they could be targeted by the GOP if this redistricting effort goes forward. The Democrats, they want Jeffries to fight this, but it's going to be an incredibly complicated and expensive venture to do that.
LEIGH ANN CALDWELL, CHIEF WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT, PUCK: Yes. It could also backfire. It could backfire for Republicans in Texas. They want to -- Donald Trump wants five additional Republican seats, but that also means that some of these very safe Republican seats could turn maybe not so safe, and they might not win, and they might lose some members.
But now the sheen is off of supposed independence and bipartisanship or non-partisanship in these gerrymandered states and districts. But the House, we have seen the effects of a very political gerrymandered system that is getting worse and worse every time that there is redistricting. There's only, you know, maybe a dozen competitive -- really competitive seats in the House these days.
And that is why you have a polarized system. That's why you have more very conservative districts and more very liberal Democratic districts. And ultimately, it means that the House is going to be a very narrow margin --
RAJU: Yes.
CALDWELL: -- for a very long time.
RAJU: And as it has been in the last couple of Congresses. Just look at the Texas map, 25 Republican seats, 13 Democratic seats. If you look at five more Republican seats there, you can see why Donald Trump is so eager to see this. But the reason why Trump is pushing this so hard --
JASMINE WRIGHT, CNN WHITE HOUSE REPORTER: Yes.
RAJU: -- he's fearful they're going to lose the House in the midterms and a Democratic majority would be potentially catastrophic for him and his administration.
WRIGHT: Yes. Yes. Listen, advisers to President Trump have been saying both to him and publicly that they believe that this White House is on a clock, that they only have a certain amount of months to get his agenda done because they think that the House is at least as it is at risk of flipping. And so Donald Trump is working actively hard to stop that happening.
And he is not doing it under the guise that politics should not be in this process. He has said very clearly he wants five more seats. He's gotten on the phone with not just Greg Abbott of Texas, the governor, but also congressional Republicans in Texas, telling them, this is what I want, do my will. And he's, you know, he's pushing them to do what he wants them to do. And so I think that this is a part of Democrats trying to match that fire.
But of course, this, again, stems with Donald Trump basically saying no to the conventional idea that we should talk about redistricting in a nonpartisan way. He's rejecting that.
RAJU: And we are hearing some concerns from Texas Republicans. They don't want to say that publicly yet and defy President Trump because they're worried about their own seats. There are some New York Democrats, too, who are also concerned about the impact that they may have on their seats. The Democrats just choose to respond in kind.
I asked one congressman, Congressman Tom Suozzi, he represents parts of Long Island, about whether this is a good idea for Democrats to do this in his state.
(BEGIN VIDEOCLIP)
RAJU: Do you think that's a good idea for New York Democrats --
REP. TOM SUOZZI (D), NEW YORK: Probably not. You know, we'll have to wait and see what happens.
RAJU: Do you think they should wait, not do that before 2026, change the maps in New York?
SUOZZI: Well, traditionally, people do this every 10 years after the census. So, like, that seems like the normal thing to me.
(END VIDEOCLIP)
RAJU: But, you know, Dave, for all the talk about the Big Beautiful Bill, Medicaid cuts and all the rest, it could come down to these issues, redistricting that happens behind the scenes for in a large part that could determine the next majority.
WEIGEL: Yes. And Democrats probably argue again in North Carolina came to it last time. They would have had -- they had nothing else changed on the congressional map. There would have had a one seat majority. They would have lost it right away due to the deaths. But because North Carolina redrew the map, Republicans had a majority.
[12:35:10]
Ohio is already on schedule to redraw its map, in part because Ohio Republicans took a ballot initiative that would have banned gerrymandering, rewrote it to make it look like a ballot initiative, legalized gerrymandering and narrowly beat it. And so that is the Democratic view here, right.
The degree to which they very quickly, with the exception from Suozzi, have moved away from the language of equanimity and fairness to if Trump does it, we have to do it. Fantastic example of Trump running in one direction downward and everyone following him.
RAJU: Yes.
WEIGEL: They're just not hearing Democrats say for the good of the voters, we need to know, it's --
WRIGHT (?): Exactly.
WEIGEL: -- to beat Trump, we need to do this.
RAJU: Yes. But again, you move some more of the swing voters into other districts that puts other seats at risk, which is why there's such a complicated play. We'll see how that turns out.
Hakeem Jeffries indicated he believed that ultimately they'll be successful in this. We shall see.
All right, remember this?
(BEGIN VIDEOCLIP)
DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: It's Rubio.
(END VIDEOCLIP)
RAJU: Why Marco Rubio was once the target of then-candidate Donald Trump's unrelenting mockery. We've got new reporting on how he transformed himself into one of President Trump's favorites.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[12:40:54]
RAJU: For years, Donald Trump mocked little Marco. But now as Secretary of State, Marco Rubio is emerging as one of the president's most trusted advisers. Rubio's rise is the focus of a smart new piece on CNN.com from our Kylie Atwood, who joins me now. So Kylie, tell us about your new report.
KYLIE ATWOOD, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Yes, well, what we learned is that the Secretary has really ascended into the top of Trump's foreign policy aids and also into his inner circle by encouraging Trump's instincts, not by challenging Trump's instincts. And he's also spent a tremendous time at the White House, put a premium of spending time with President Trump himself.
One of the people that we spoke with, who's familiar with their interactions, explained to me that Rubio knows Trump's end state, supports it, and doesn't try to control how he gets there. Obviously, very different than previous national advisers that we saw during first -- during Trump's first term. I want you to listen to some of the praise that Trump has had for Rubio in recent months.
(BEGIN VIDEOCLIP)
TRUMP: Thank you very much, Marco. Really great job.
Marco Rubio, unbelievable. Unbelievable, Marco. When I have a problem, I call up Marco. He gets it solved.
I was very proud of Marco Rubio and all of the people that work so hard. Marco, stand up. What a great job you did on that.
He's a natural. There's never going to be anybody better than the job you're doing right now.
(END VIDEOCLIP)
ATWOOD: Now, that last comment was on Friday night after there was a major prisoner swap between the United States and Venezuela. Ten Americans coming back from Venezuela, 242 Venezuelans who were in El Salvador prison sent to Venezuela. The Secretary of State was really critical in getting that to actually come to fruition.
He has a personal relationship with the president of El Salvador, Bukele. I'm told that he leveraged that relationship to make sure that this happened, demonstrating his deft approach, working behind the scenes to deliver on something that President Trump wanted.
And I was also traveling with the Secretary of State in Malaysia earlier this month. He met with the Russian foreign minister. He told us after that meeting that there were some indications that there were new ideas from the Russians on the table to bring potential talks back to the fore when it came to Ukraine and Russia, not making any promises there.
But then just hours later, he was on a phone call. It was after midnight in Malaysia with President Trump when President Trump made a major shift on Ukraine policy, telling the NATO Secretary General in that phone call that he was actually going to be supporting U.S. military support to Ukraine. Of course, NATO countries were going to be paying for it.
But in those hours, Rubio gave no indication that the president was going to be making that shift --
RAJU: Interesting.
ATWOOD: -- just indicating how deft approach he has with President Trump, really knowing where he's going.
RAJU: And knowing how to deal with President Trump. You know, I've covered Mark Rubio for a long time. He -- back when he was a Tea Party candidate --
ATWOOD: Yes.
RAJU: -- when he was opposed by the Republican establishment before he won his Senate race, he did win his Senate race in Florida, covered his in the Senate. You know, he had moved from being a Tea Party guy. He worked with a bipartisan group of senators on that comprehensive immigration bill that Trump railed against.
He was big on soft power, big on USAID funding, big on foreign aid. But he knows how to shapeshift of sorts, try to align himself with Trump's agenda, worldview. And he's very much against foreign aid funding right now. He's changed on --
ATWOOD: Yes.
RAJU: -- some key issues. But is that why he's been so successful in getting into Trump's inner circle?
ATWOOD: In part, I think that's a huge piece of this. During his days in the Senate, he called Putin a war criminal. We obviously haven't seen him with that kind of tone in the last few months, as Trump was pursuing diplomacy with Russia that never actually came to fruition. But the other thing that we've seen Rubio do is develop these really strong relationships with other people in President Trump's inner circle.
Susie Wiles, his chief of staff at the White House, is an ally of the Secretary of State. Also, JD Vance, the vice president, you would think that they might be political rivals. But when we spoke with folks, they actually share notes, their staffs, when they aren't able to get into meetings. The vice president even giving us a statement for this story, heaping praise on Rubio.
[12:45:05]
And the other thing about Rubio that we learned is that he has this self-deprecating sense of humor that he uses a lot. He ran into a friend who was at the White House recently and commented how far he had come since he was little Marco during the 2016 campaign. And Rubio said, I'm always one step away from being little Marco again.
RAJU: Yes, that's so true, especially in the Trump world. We'll see if he decides to do what he did in 2016, run again in 2028.
ATWOOD: We'll watch.
RAJU: That's another big question as well.
ATWOOD: Yes.
RAJU: Kylie Atwood with some excellent reporting. Thank you so much.
And up next for us, sandy beaches, sprawling front porches, amazing cuisine. Well, that's out-of-state Democrats. You can see them as well in South Carolina. Yet another Democrat with presidential ambition distends on the Palmetto state. We'll hear about that next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[12:50:20]
RAJU: It's a summertime Makkah for golfers, beach vacationers, and ambitious Democrats. And that's South Carolina. California Congressman Ro Khanna brought his benefits over billionaires campaign tour to the Palmetto state this weekend, including an event in the district of Republican Congresswoman Nancy Mace.
The point was to rally against the Trump domestic policy bill. But as a local Post and Courier put it, quote, "Ro Khanna came to South Carolina to rally against Trump's agenda. But Democrats kept asking, what's our plan?" Listen for yourself.
(BEGIN VIDEOCLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And we all know that the Democrats want to try to overturn that. But that only brings us back to where we were, how Donald Trump got elected to begin with.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: At what point do we stop playing by the same norms? And when do we start taking advantage of those loopholes that exist? It is time to stop complaining and to start not playing dirty, but accepting that the rules are different.
(END VIDEOCLIP)
RAJU: All right, our panel is back, including Dave Weigel, who's probably spent just as much time in South Carolina as some of these 2028 hopefuls. So as you're hearing from voters, what are you hearing about what they want their candidates to be talking about?
WEIGEL: Versions of that question. I was there with Gavin Newsom, with Andy Beshear, two governors with different approaches to how they talk about the Trump administration. I will note that they were accessible to press when they were there and accessible to voters. They did not take on mic questions.
He didn't get that sort of interaction that could be played around the world of the Democrat getting confronted. How are you guys going to fight? They more talked about how they were fighting and how the party should change and got a response.
They are adjusting very well to this. It's a different kind of crowd you're getting in South Carolina. Every member of the House is getting a question like Khanna (ph) is getting. And the gulf is between, tell us the country is going to be OK in three and a half years versus what are you doing to fight right now. They're all getting asked how they're going to fight right now.
And the governor's answer has been, for Newsom, what you saw with redistricting, was I'm going to go punch for punch on every lawsuit. In the House, anyone who come -- anyone who has a perch in Congress is coming there and is getting much tougher questions about how do you win exactly. And they're finding they can't explain to people. There are rules in the House that prevent me from acting the way you want.
RAJU: And one of the -- he's mentioned Ro Khanna. He was down there. He's trying to get on the map here as -- seen as a potential 2028 candidate. He has been leading the push also in the House to release those Jeffrey Epstein files. And he talked about that effort and how that's playing out in the House.
(BEGIN VIDEOCLIP)
REP. RO KHANNA (D), CALIFORNIA: The Democrats need to fight, but we need to fight smartly. We've got to get to his voters to break that base. And that's why this Epstein file is such a big thing. This is the first time, first time in 10 years since Donald Trump walked down the elevator that his base is cracking.
On my bill, on my bill to release the Epstein files, not only do I have Republican Thomas Massie, I got Marjorie Taylor Greene. I got Lauren Boebert.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
KHANNA: I got Tim Burchett (ph).
(END VIDEOCLIP)
RAJU: I think he meant Burchett, but --
CALDWELL: Yes.
RAJU: -- nevertheless, what do you -- the Democratic strategy on this Epstein matter has been more confrontational than perhaps they might have been in other issues in the past.
CALDWELL: Yes, it's interesting. I was talking to some Republicans early last week, like Tuesday, and they said that they were actually surprised at how good Democrats have been on the Epstein issue. They said they didn't think Democrats had it in them, but Democrats have really like found this sweet spot and this painful spot for Donald Trump on this issue.
As Khanna got the question, as Dave alluded to, so many in the party, activists and base members are talking about, yes, you can be anti- Trump, but you also have to have a plan too. And that is the conundrum that Democrats are in right now.
RAJU: Yes, and speaking of the candidates jumping on the Jeffrey Epstein issue, this is Gavin Newsom's tweet from a couple of days ago. "Lights will guide you home unless you're on the flight log," this now viral tweet of Epstein and Trump, like the Coldplay viral video incident, of course. What do you make of the way Democrats like Newsom are handling this?
WRIGHT: I'm sorry, I just love the Coldplay saga so much. I'm so glad we get to talk about it. Look, I think that Gavin Newsom has become very good at needling Trump, at trolling Trump. He's one of the few Democrats that actually do get under the president's skin, as well as the White House, and so he's probably going to continue on this effort.
[12:55:02]
But I think you can just keep saying that Epstein is not a kitchen table issue. And so people are going to consistently vote on the things that they've always voted on, which are gas prices, food prices, higher prices, all of these things that the White House feels that they have been able to adequately address, something that maybe Democrats were not able to adequately address.
But I think that Ro Khanna is right, is that maybe the base is not cracking, as you say, but there is an opening, and Democrats do see it. And I think that they're going to continue to kind of plunder in that opening, see if they can make it wider, but then they're going to --
RAJU: Yes.
WRIGHT: -- have to answer the question about what else.
RAJU: And, look, their approval rating as a party is at rock bottom, as we saw from that CNN poll --
WRIGHT: Yes.
RAJU: -- just a couple days ago. 28 percent favor the way the Democrats are handling things right now. That is a drop from 21 of 21 points since 2021.
All right, excellent discussion, guys. Thank you so much.
Thank you for joining Inside Politics. CNN News Central starts after a very quick break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
