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DOJ Says It Reached Out To Ghislaine Maxwell For A Meeting; GOP Fight Over Epstein Files Grinds House To A Halt; GOP-Led House Oversight Committee To Subpoena Ghislaine Maxwell; Texas GOP Moving To Redraw Congressional Maps This Week; Trump: DOJ Contacting Ghislaine Maxwell "Sounds Appropriate"; Hunter Biden Lashes Out At Dems He Claims Betrayed His Father. Aired 12:30-1p ET

Aired July 22, 2025 - 12:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[12:30:00]

EVAN PEREZ, CNN SENIOR JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: -- as a result of this investigation so I'm not sure what the Deputy Attorney General is saying when he says that no administration has tried to get the full story. We'll see, however, whether this meeting produces anything new.

I should point out Ghislaine Maxwell is trying to appeal her 20-year sentence so that obviously she has a very big incentive to try to perhaps cooperate here and see what she can get from this bargain with the with the Trump administration. Manu?

MANU RAJU, CNN ANCHOR: Yes. We know it's going to take some time to play out and will those members of Congress clamoring for information, give him that time.

PEREZ: Absolutely.

RAJU: And that's a big question. We're going to dissect that here.

Evan Perez, thank you for that.

And our excellent reporters are back. OK, so this is now officially shut down the House representatives. It's amazing how much this controversy has totally consumed the House GOP. The Speaker is essentially sending -- it is sending home members a day early for their month-plus long August recess because he is paralyzed. They cannot move on legislation because there are too many members demanding action on Epstein and they can't then figure out how to get out of the jail.

OLIVIA BEAVERS, CONGRESSIONAL REPORTER, THE WALL STREET JOURNAL: Yes. And I think that some of these House Republicans can add contortionist to the resumes because the way that they have been trying to avoid crossing President Trump on this has been pretty astounding. If you look at Andy Biggs, last year, he went on Benny Johnson's podcast show and he was saying the D.C. criminal cartel is hiding this. Why isn't Congress subpoenaing for information.

And then I tried to ask him last week, are you pushing for this information to be released? And he said, oh, why are you bringing me into this. And the information will come out. I said, yes, but are you pushing for it and he would not give me a straight answer.

So, there are definitely some really uncomfortable House Republicans and this seemed like a maneuver by leadership to shield them which they have been trying to do for the past weeks as this controversy becomes more and more uncomfortable.

RAJU: Yes, because there's several things that are happening. There was a non-binding resolution that Johnson agreed to come forward last week and then he said that resolution calling for the lease of the Epstein files would not get a vote before the August recess. I asked him about that yesterday.

And then there's a binding measure to try to force a vote on the House floor by Congressman Thomas Massie of Kentucky. He's to get all the -- a majority of the House to sign on to it to force a vote. But by recessing the House early, it essentially prevents that official effort from going forward, at least will delay that vote until September at the earliest.

And then you have the House Oversight Committee now signaling it will subpoena Ghislaine Maxwell amid pressure from Republican members. Tim Burchett, the congressman from Tennessee, leading that charge. The question is going to be whether or not what Trump is doing, what Trump is saying is enough to satisfy folks in the GOP both conservatives and more moderate members.

It's a question that I asked a number of them over the last day.

(BEGIN VIDEOCLIP)

REP. THOMAS MASSIE (R), KENTUCKY: More importantly, if we don't take the right side of this issue, it's going to cost us votes in the midterms. People are becoming despondent, they're apathetic. Why would they go vote if they gave us the House, the Senate, and the White House, and the transparency and justice they were promised doesn't happen.

REP. MARJORIE TAYLOR GREENE (R), GEORGIA: You know, I really like President Trump. I also think he's -- he has a great pulse on things. But on this issue, the American people really want to see transparency. It's become one of those basically fractures that is too big to ignore.

REP. DON BACON (R), NEBRASKA: Yes, I just support it because I think there's too much conspiracy theory and it's better put light on it.

(END VIDEOCLIP)

RAJU: Burgess, you walk those halls every day talking to Republicans. What are you hearing about how much of a problem this has become for the GOP?

BURGESS EVERETT, CONGRESSIONAL BUREAU CHIEF, SEMAFOR: I mean it's interesting. When I was asking the Senate Republican leaders about this last week, I got a few looks like I had three heads because they were like, why would you be asking about this? A week later -- RAJU: Including the Senate Majority Leader?

EVERETT: Yes. A week later, we have the House Speaker who's really struggling honestly to deal with this situation and he's making the bet that if he sends them home for five weeks, that might make a difference. Seung Min, when we were off camera, was mentioning that this has been now kind of the talk of Washington for about three weeks which is pretty long for the Trump era.

He's somebody who knows how to change the conversation, change the discussion. And it really hasn't happened yet. It would be interesting to see if you had an unlimited vote-a-rama in the Senate right now. If Democrats would be offering Epstein amendments as well.

We saw Ruben Gallego come to the floor last week and force Republicans to block an Epstein resolution. So, I mean, it's really kind of invaded all facets of Washington right now unlike most other kind of cultural issues. I would probably put this in, not to say it's not serious but it's not something that Congress would typically be legislating on.

And to Olivia's point, what you're hearing is a lot of Republicans trying to walk this fine line of, this is really important. We need to hear more about this but not pan the way that President Trump is dealing with it because I think there was a lot of sensitivity for example last week when Mike Johnson, the Speaker, appeared to sort of break with Trump and ask for more disclosure of this.

RAJU: Yes.

EVERETT: And we're kind of seeing them try to recalibrate things right now with the subpoena.

[12:35:02]

I talked to Ron Johnson, a senator from Wisconsin, on the way over to the show and he was -- he seemed very interested in the Ghislaine Maxwell actions by the Justice Department. And he said, he thinks she has the answers on everything.

RAJU: Yes. And the question is, will time be enough? Will that bury this story as the Republican leadership clearly hopes so, particularly in the House? Will summer recess calm things down? And Trump still clearly wants to talk about any other issues.

But as you were saying, Burgess, there's a majority widespread of the American public. They want this information out there, like, 80 percent, 90 percent of the polls suggest that that's what the public wants here. And it -- but it's not just Democrats, as Republicans, as Conservatives, this with Theo Von who is a conservative podcaster said, "Why can't we put the Ro Khanna-Thomas Massie bill for a vote this week, Speaker Johnson, JD Vance?"

I mean that's the pressure that the leadership is under. It's not -- it's going through all aspects of society. SEUNG MIN KIM, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: This is why I'm not quite sure Speaker Johnson and the House leadership bet on sending everyone home and hoping that recess kind of dies this controversy down. I'm not quite sure it's going to work because it could only really fuel the flames.

I think what's been fascinating with comments from Republican lawmakers over the last several days especially is when they emphasize how much they're hearing from their constituents about this matter. You have, you know, Republicans saying this is what I'm getting phone calls about. You know, my voters are very much concerned about this.

And, you know, they are largely -- there are very often largely dictated by what they hear. So if they're home, you know, they're having town halls. If they're not having town halls, they're out in the grocery stores, you know, out in the community.

And if this is the thing that, you know, their constituents been their ear about, that the momentum behind the Massie-Khanna resolution could be stronger by the time we get back from recess.

RAJU: Very quick -- very, very quick.

EDWARD-ISAAC DOVERE, CNN SENIOR REPORTER: Theo Von, I don't know if he's conservative. He's a comedian with podcast. He had JD Vance on his podcast last year saying release the Epstein files. Last week, Von tweeted that clip and said, yes, what changed. That's part of what's going on here. They made this conspiracy sink into people's minds and now everybody wants to -- OK, you're there.

RAJU: And they haven't quite explained why --

DOVERE: Right.

RAJU: -- they had changed that position which is leading to more questions as well.

All right, coming up, Texas Republicans have a plan to redraw their congressional maps to elect more Republicans. I'll talk to a House Democrat whose district could be redrawn out of existence.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[12:42:04]

RAJU: It's a Texas power play that has been the focus on both ends of Pennsylvania Avenue. The Texas legislator now meeting in a special session and will try to enact President Trump's demand to redraw House district lines to give the GOP a shot at five new seats in next year's midterms. It's an effort typically done at the beginning of a new decade.

My next guest could be on the GOP target list and is the chair of the Texas Democratic delegation in the U.S. House, Congresswoman Lizzie Fletcher, who joins me now live. Congresswoman, thank you so much for joining me this afternoon. I want to get back to redistricting, but first, I want to start with the news from this morning from President Trump who was asked about the DOJ efforts to interview Jeffrey Epstein co-conspirator and collaborator Ghislaine Maxwell. He said it sounds appropriate.

You joined all Democrats and trying to push an amendment that would require the DOJ to release all its Epstein files. I'm wondering you talk to your constituents regularly. Is this what they care about?

REP. LIZZIE FLETCHER (D), TEXAS: Well, thank you so much for having me on, Manu. And, yes, you're right. These are the two issues consuming Washington this week, certainly what everybody's talking about. And people are concerned about the Epstein files and the Trump administration's failure to provide them that they've been saying not just for months but for years, that this is information they would release.

But what it represents is another failed promise from this administration. Don't forget, President Trump campaigned on bringing down costs, making life easier for people, and what we see is that they're failing to do that at every turn. They're not making things cheaper, they're increasing tariffs, they're doing all kinds of things that are making things harder, taking away people's health care, taking away food assistance, and now they're not delivering on providing these Epstein files.

And so people are concerned and it fits into a much bigger picture and it's also part of what you mentioned this redistricting effort. They know that they're facing an uphill battle next November, so they're moving the goalposts and trying to change the rules because they can't win on their policies. They are failing on their promises.

They are not delivering on their promises. And people are angry and they want to see what's in these files. And they want President Trump and his administration to do the things that they said they were going to do. And this is yet another example of that.

RAJU: Let's talk a little bit more about what's happening in your state, Trump's effort to add those five more seats to Texas in the midterm, five more GOP seats by redrawing these maps. You know, the Texas Democrats yesterday as the state legislature was convening, they sent a letter about this, about how they plan to respond.

And they said in this letter, "House Democrats refuse to engage in any other legislative work until after adequate flood relief and disaster mitigation legislation are passed and signed by the governor." It sounds like they're threatening the nuclear option of sorts of Texas politics fleeing the state to deny the quorum necessary to conduct legislative business.

Of course that's been done in the past. Would you urge Texas State Democrats to do that, to boycott the session and deny a quorum?

[12:45:05]

FLETCHER: Well, I think the Texas House Democrats and the senators are doing the right thing and saying let's stay focused on the things that Texans care about. Let's focus on flood relief because we are in an ongoing devastating tragedy in our state right now.

People in my home, in Houston, and across the state are grieving the loss of our fellow Texans. And so, what they are saying is, this session should be about things Texans care about and that Texans are asking for. And neither I nor anybody I know knows any Texans who are asking the legislature to redraw the congressional map to create five new GOP seats.

It is President Trump and President Trump alone. It is not --

RAJU: So --

FLETCHER: -- Texans asking for this.

RAJU: So it sounds like you don't think that they should boycott the session?

FLETCHER: Well, I think that -- I think they should do whatever they think they need to do to fight back. And I think that we have a lot of capable, thoughtful legislators in Austin who are working hard to make sure that they're exploring all the options available to them. Certainly, they've done it in the past.

They've been on the front lines of democracy. They were up here in Washington, D.C. four years ago protesting the current maps, which a trial has just concluded. The evidence is just concluded in a trial on the maps that are currently in place. And they did it 20 years ago. So they've been on the front lines of democracy and they're fighting for democracy because the stakes are high for Texas, for the House, and for the entire country.

RAJU: So your district -- and you won your district last cycle by almost 23 points, but in 2023 -- 2020 before your district was redrawn, you beat Republican Wesley Hunt by just over three points, and that is a 20-point swing. Congresswoman, are you worried your district could be on the chopping block that you could go from a safe Democratic district to one in which your seat is now in peril?

FLETCHER: Well, there's something really important here which is this is not about me and my district, this is not about any individual member, right? Members come and go. This is not about any particular district. This is about the people that we represent and making sure that they have the opportunity to make their voices heard.

And something that's really important for people to understand is that in Texas, right now, there are 25 Republicans have been elected and 13 Democrats. And 12 of those 13 Democratic seats including mine have a majority of minority voters. They're a majority minority districts and all 13 minority voters elect their candidate of choice.

So touching any district, dismantling any Democratic district is unconstitutional, it violates the Voting Rights Act, and it erodes the ability for minorities in Texas to have their say at the ballot box. And we have a long -- RAJU: Congress --

FLETCHER: -- and bad history on that in Texas. So we need to make sure that that doesn't happen anywhere.

RAJU: Congresswoman, Democrats are now talking about responding in kind, potentially redrawing the maps in states like New York, New Jersey, California, some others. I asked your colleague in Texas delegation, Greg Casar, about blue state gerrymanders. He told me, "I think it is unacceptable and dangerous for essentially what people marched during the Civil Rights Movement for."

I'm wondering, doesn't a Democratic effort to gerrymander these district pretty much go against what many Democrats have been railing against for years and what you're criticizing Texas Republicans for which is partisan gerrymandering to tilt an election?

FLETCHER: Well, there are a couple of points here. Number one, what we have seen in Texas is that GOP partisan gerrymandering is racial gerrymandering and it is illegal. And it's really important to understand that in Texas, they use partisanship as a proxy for race. So what we're talking about in Texas violates the Voting Rights Act.

And in Congress, of course, and in our state legislature, we've been doing things to protect voting rights, you know, whether it's the John Lewis Voting Rights Advancement Act or H.R. 1 when we're in the majority, we're trying to protect the rights of voters. But we cannot ignore the environment that we're operating in right now.

These are extraordinary times, the incredible power grab that we've seen from President Trump and his administration over this last six months. Taking away power from Congress, trying to take away power from the courts. All of the things that we've seen trying to consolidate that power, he is now demanding that Texans do what he wants on this congressional map and we should use every tool we have available to us to fight back. As I said the other day, we cannot bring a knife to a gunfight.

RAJU: Right. And you don't think that's the same thing as what Republicans are doing?

FLETCHER: Well, I don't think it's the same because the history in Texas is that these maps and again the one that is currently in place in Texas is in court right now because that's what we're seeing. But here, you know, this is potentially the beginning of something.

What state is President Trump going to call next? Is he going to call Governor DeSantis? Is he going to call other states?

[12:50:00]

We have to understand that this is about more than Texas. Texas is the big prize because he thinks he can get five seats, and that's what's happening here. They're trying to win the House majority not on their policies, not on the substance of what they're doing, but by changing the rules and changing the -- moving the goalposts. And we can't let that happen and we can't sit by while they do it.

RAJU: All right.

FLETCHER: We have to take action and we have to be focused on protecting the rights of all Americans. And the best way we can do that is by putting Democrats back in charge of the House in 2026.

RAJU: All right, Congresswoman Lizzie Fletcher from Texas, thank you so much for joining me and sharing your perspective.

FLETCHER: Thanks.

RAJU: Coming up, a Democrat with presidential aspirations goes into the lion's den manga favorite Megyn Kelly's podcast. It's the everything everywhere all at once strategy that many in the party say they need to do to win back power.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOCLIP)

[12:55:25]

RAHM EMANUEL, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL & GLOBAL AFFAIRS COMMENTATOR: Well, I mean, you kind of started it because you've brought me up before and I thought, well, if you're going to bring me up a couple times, let's come on the show since my favorite subject is me. I thought I'd do that.

(END VIDEOCLIP)

RAJU: And that's Rahm Emanuel, the latest likely Democratic presidential candidate to be in an unlikely place. That's conservative Megyn Kelly's podcast. Kelly pushed him on one of MAGA world's most talked about topics -- trans rights.

(BEGIN VIDEOCLIP)

MEGYN KELLY, HOST, THE MEGYN KELLY SHOW: -- believe boys should be able to play in girls' sports?

EMANUEL: No.

KELLY: Can a man become a woman?

EMANUEL: Can a man become a woman? Not -- no.

KELLY: Thank you.

EMANUEL: No.

KELLY: That's so easy. Why don't more people in your party just say that?

EMANUEL: Because I'm now going to go into a witness protection plan.

(END VIDEOCLIP)

RAJU: All right. We should note, Emanuel is currently a CNN contributor and we're back here at the table.

Isaac, what do you make of this strategy?

DOVERE: I think what we saw come to a head last year in the elections were it was a long-building situation of Democrats spending a lot of time not realizing that they were talking to themselves in a bubble and not realizing how some of what had become acceptable and even demanded of that bubble thinking was not really landing well in a lot of people -- for a lot of people outside of that bubble.

And also not realizing how much was taking root in the demonization or whatever you want to call it from the right-wing media about what Democrats are. The best way that Democrats have found to challenge that is by going into the lion's den themselves.

RAJU: Yes.

DOVERE: You see that with a lot of people.

RAJU: And did you have here just a handful of them that we've seen not just Rahm Emanuel but also Ro Khanna who's trying to make noise here and potentially be considered as the 2028 contender. Gavin Newsom has done several of these type of appearances. Pete Buttigieg on Barstool's Pardon My Take as well.

KIM: Yes. I mean, Buttigieg was really kind of the main one in the last cycle where he had that go-everywhere strategy and a lot of Democrats are taking notes from him. I think the challenge for Democrats who do end up embarking a national run is when they say things or take positions that may be out of, you know, that may veer from what the base is asking for.

I think Gavin Newsom is a really interesting test case for that. Clearly, he is angling for some sort of a national bid and he's definitely moderated himself over the last several months. You know, he has spoken on about -- spoken on trans issues. He has, you know, limited health care coverage for undocumented immigrants in the state of California.

So when it comes to actually kind of explaining those policy positions when the national run happens, I think will be the -- will -- is perhaps when that tension is going to emerge.

RAJU: It's also the vulnerability among Democrats that we saw in the last cycle that they were had struggled with white male voters in particular and they also struggle with younger voters too.

EVERETT: I mean one thing we saw to Seung Min's point is Vice President Kamala Harris got a lot of incoming from her past more progressive positions that she took in that 2020 primary. So when you see people like Gavin Newsom moderate on some issues, I do think it raises the question of in 2028, will Democrats seek out a fresh candidate who doesn't have that ideological baggage from a decade or so ago?

RAJU: Speaking of fresh -- potential fresh candidate, here's Andy Beshear, perhaps not in the conservative podcast sphere at least on this but going on the cover of Vogue, it appears. "Democratic Governor Andy Beshear Has Won and Won Again in Trump Country. What's Next?" as the headline of Vogue.

Smart strategy?

BEAVERS: I mean, I think that's just their approach is put themselves out in unusual ways to its younger voters or maybe people who don't show up. But I think that what we're seeing with all these people whether they're launching new podcasts or asking or answering uncomfortable questions that the party has been trying to sidestep is the party is still trying to think, figure out where they go next.

And they are trying to plot if the party wants them to swing more to the right or more to the left and it does not look like they are clear which ideological direction they want to go. So that's why you're seeing all these people starting to raise their hand saying maybe it could be me.

RAJU: Very quickly. Yesterday, Hunter Biden was -- made an appearance at talking to on a YouTube host criticizing one, it's like F word, F him, F him, F him, talking about George Clooney, Quentin Tarantino, James Carville, David Axelrod, Barack Obama. You've covered Joe Biden for years, is this what Joe Biden wants?

DOVERE: Hunter Biden always says that he is just doing what he's doing but his father is OK with it. That has not always been the feeling from the people around Joe Biden. Joe Biden himself tends to say give Hunter Biden some space to do things and say he knows what he's doing. Time and again, this has proven a problem for Joe Biden.

RAJU: Yes. And just as Democrats were hopeful, they're in a good news cycle, here emerges --

EVERETT: Yes. But Bidens always seem to show up at the wrong way (ph).

RAJU: Exactly, perhaps not what all of them want.

All right, great discussion. Thank you guys.

And thank you for joining Inside Politics. CNN News Central starts right now.