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Top Trump DOJ Official Meeting With Maxwell For Second Day; Trump Heads To Scotland As Furor Grows Over Epstein Files; Dems Go On Offense, Accuse GOP Of Covering Up Epstein Files. Aired 12-12:30p ET

Aired July 25, 2025 - 12:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[12:00:00]

WOLF BLITZER, CO-ANCHOR, THE SITUATION ROOM: I got the chance earlier this year to have the stadium all to myself, walk on the field and tour the Bills locker room, even taking a picture in. I, for one, can't wait to watch the new season of Hard Knocks and see my Buffalo Bills dominate this coming season. Hard Knocks' premier is on August 5, and we'll be joined by the way -- by the show's Director Pat Harris on premiere day, August 5. Make sure to tune in and watch it. You will love it like I did.

And thanks very much for joining me this morning. You can always keep up with us on social media @wolfblitzer and @Pamelabrowncnn. I'll see you back here Monday morning and every weekday morning, 10 am eastern. Inside Politics today with Manu Raju starts right now.

MANU RAJU, CNN ANCHOR, INSIDE POLITICS: Today at Inside Politics, the plot thickens. Number two at the DOJ, who just happens to be President Trump's former defense attorney is behind closed doors with Jeffrey Epstein's convicted accomplice for the second day in a row. As the president now refuses to rule out a pardon for Ghislaine Maxwell.

Plus, the gloves are off. Democrats are trying to use the Epstein scandal as political ammunition, accusing Republicans of a cover up, and as targeted at vulnerable GOP districts. And the FCC green light, sky dances acquisition of Paramount just days after it canceled a top Trump critics popular late-night show. And weeks after paying off the president a $16 million legal settlement that Democrats say weeks of corruption.

I'm Manu Raju in for Dana Bash. Let's go behind the headlines at Inside Politics.

First up, will President Trump need a mulligan? He's on his way towards golf resorts in Scotland, as there's growing uproar here in the United States over his connection to Jeffrey Epstein, as that engulfs his administration.

Now, moments before leaving the White House, the president addressed the meeting between his Deputy Attorney General Todd Blanche and Epstein's accomplice Ghislaine Maxwell, while notably leaving the door open for a potential pardon.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Would you consider a pardon or a commutation for Ghislaine Maxwell if --

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: It's something I haven't thought about it. It's really something --

(CROSSTALK)

TRUMP: I'm allowed to do it, but it's something I have not thought about it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

RAJU: CNN legal analyst and former prosecutor -- former federal prosecutor Elie Honig joins me now. So, Elie, walk us through how significant and how unusual it is for the number two of the Justice Department to be meeting with a convicted sex trafficker?

ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Well, Manu, ordinarily, it happens all the time that prosecutors meet with people who have been charged with crimes or convicted of crimes, if those people are trying to cooperate. But basically, everything else about this is highly unusual. And it strikes me, Manu, as being more of a political exercise than truly a prosecutorial exercise.

Now you hit on the first indicator there, they're sending the deputy attorney general to do this. Ordinarily, the deputy A.G. would go nowhere near an individual case. You just have the people who prosecuted, Ghislaine Maxwell do this. That's ordinarily who does this.

The other thing that strikes me as really unusual here is. There is no realistic chance, based on my time as a prosecutor, that Ghislaine Maxwell ends up as a full proper cooperating witness with the Justice Department.

First of all, she committed heinous crimes. DOJ is already on record, lambasting her for committing horrible crimes against children -- sex crimes against children. Second of all, she has serious credibility problems. She has refused to come forward, refused to implicate anyone else. Thus far, she's lied under oath in other settings when asked. So, I don't see a way this results in proper DOJ prosecutorial cooperation. I think there's very much something else to play here, and I think that something else is politics.

RAJU: And what do you make Elie of the fact that Trump did not rule out a possible pardon right at this key moment when his number two at the Justice Department is meeting with Ghislaine Maxwell?

HONIG: Definitely a noteworthy response, right? I mean, if you think generally about a president being asked, would you consider a pardon for a person who has been convicted of mass sex trafficking of children, conspiracy. That's a quick and easy. That's not under consideration. Donald Trump gave a very different answer. The thing that makes me think about here is, well, what's Ghislaine Maxwell's play in meeting with prosecutors? There's only a couple ways she can escape the remainder of her 20-year sentence. Number one, is she might be able to prevail upon DOJ and prosecutors to go back to the judge and write a letter, asking for a sentencing reduction based on her cooperation.

I would refuse to do that if I was a prosecutor, given what she was convicted of, but maybe that, and then there's always the possibility of a pardon or a commutation. So, I do think there's some strategy here happening, both by Ghislaine Maxwell and by the Justice Department.

RAJU: Yeah. No question about it. We'll see if we learn anything about that meeting. We didn't learn a whole lot from yesterday's meeting. Today is second straight day. Wait for those details. Elie Honig, thank you so much for your analysis and expertise.

[12:05:00]

HONIG: Thanks Manu.

RAJU: Now in that same South Lawn Q&A, President Trump also made yet another, not so subtle pitch for reporters to change the subject off of Epstein, or at least off of his name in the files.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: People should really focus on how well the country is doing. Or they should focus on the fact that Barack Hussein Obama led a coup. Or they should focus on the fact that Larry Summers from Harvard, that Bill Clinton, who you know very well, and lots of other friends, really close friends of Jeffrey Summers (Ph) should be spoken about because, you know -- Jeffrey Epstein should be spoken about.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

RAJU: Now, none of the men there, Summers, Clinton or Trump have been accused of any wrongdoing associated with the relationship with Epstein. Clinton has denied knowledge of Epstein's crimes and says he cut ties to him two decades ago. Summers who served as treasury secretary under Clinton says he regrets interactions with Epstein, after Epstein's initial conviction in 2008.

I'm joined here in the room by a terrific group of reporters, CNN's Lauren Fox, John Bresnan at Punchbowl News, Tamara Keith of NPR, and Josh Dawsey of The Wall Street Journal. He's also the co-author of 2024: How Trump Retook the White House and the Democrats Lost America. Great book. Thank you. You get it.

OK. So, Trump has been said the quiet part out loud. I guess he's been quiet about it. He wants everyone to change the subject, but the problem is that more and more information continues to come out, and he can't just change the subject if they haven't revealed everything that's in the files. TAMARA KEITH, WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, NPR: Which may not be possible. They very likely set up expectations in his base that cannot be met. They did set up those expectations. And members of Congress back at home doing -- many Republicans doing telephone town halls, not in person town halls are getting questions about Jeffrey Epstein and the files.

The challenge for the president is that his base wants the truth, the whole truth, and they still have a lot of questions, and so it's just not going away. The stories keep coming out. The president keeps saying, squirrel, and it's just not working.

RAJU: Yeah. And that's the issue, right? This drip, drip, drip. You're reporting about them being briefed about him naming in the Epstein files. Other reporting coming out from the New York Times, including him being trumping, apparently a contributor to Epstein's 50th birthday book. That's the problem here for Trump is that more and more -- every time more and more details come out, it changes the news cycle and brings it right back into the floor.

JOSH DAWSEY, CO-AUTHOR, "2024" & POLITICAL INVESTIGATIONS REPORTER, THE WALL STREET JOURNAL: Well and he had a long relationship with Jeffrey Epstein. He doesn't even deny that for many, many years --

RAJU: But now, trying to totally downplay if they erase night (Ph).

DAWSEY: Right, right. For many, many years they knew each other. There's been all sorts of pictures that come out, letters that we've reported on the New York Times and others have reported on. There's connections there. Now there's no allegations that he's done anything illegal or, you know, illicit at this point. None of that's out there, but he had a long ties with him. His name was in the files. His own attorney general told him that.

Again, it's not saying that his name was in the files, doing anything criminally wrong, but you think he was an associate who was around Epstein. And so, a lot of the folks around the president don't want to put any of more of the files out. A, because they say, you know, there's all sorts of things in there about folks who've been charged with crimes. There's some of the materials vile, some of the material has child pornography, some of it's unverified, hearsay.

Department of Justice traditionally has not released information about people. It's not charging with crimes. It doesn't investigate people. And just say, oh, here's all the things we found. We're not charging you with a crime. But here his people have promised, so many of the ones around him have promised for years, we're going to get to the bottom of this. We're going to tell you everything that's there, and then that runs into the realities of governing and the rules of how these things actually usually work.

RAJU: Yeah.

DAWSEY: And so, it's not a great position for the White House. And I think for the first time in his presidency, if you talk to people inside, they feel a little bit on defense, right? They feel like they're having to fight back on something that they don't want to be talking about. He's actually, I think, done a pretty -- in some ways, remarkable job for the first six months of his presidency, keeping the conversation on terms that he wants to keep it on, and this is not the terms that he wants to keep it on.

RAJU: This is the first time he's completely lost the control of the narratives in the second term here in the presidency. And part of it, as you mentioned, is the promise to release that information and the changing stories within the administration about whether that information ultimately would be released.

Our colleague here at CNN, Aaron Blake, put together a very helpful timeline about the responses and the comments made by the Trump team about whether this information will be released back in late February 20 -- February 21.

Bondi tells Fox, the client list is sitting on my desk right now to review. She -- a couple days later, she told so, a group of conservative social media influencers shows that binders -- binders of Epstein related documents. Then a couple days later, in early March, said the DOJ has a truckload of evidence from the FBI. Everything's going to be public.

[12:10:00]

And then late April, Trump says that 100 percent of the Epstein files will be released, and all those documents are being delivered. And then in May, what happens? This is what Dawsey's team was the first to report about Bondi telling Trump his name appears in the files.

Lo and behold by late May, Patel -- Kash Patel and Dan Bongino go on Fox and say that Epstein died by suicide. Bongino then later says, the file -- he talks -- asked about releasing the files. He calls it a hot potato for folks.

Then comes June, Kash Patel down planes the release, says we're going to give you everything we can. And then by July 7, DOJ releases that unsigned memo saying there was no client list, and they won't release more documents, which is why we're there -- and that's what's created this fire. So now, three weeks in because of this changing stories.

LAUREN FOX, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: When you talk to conservatives on the Hill, as we both do, Manu, all the time. The crux of this issue for them is the underlying distrust in the federal government and a belief that Donald Trump was going to be the person who had no ties to the establishment and was going to be willing to overturn what so many of these base voters felt like was being concealed from them.

And Eric Burlison said this to me the other day. He said, we were so close to giving them information, giving our voters that information, and then we pulled back, and that is why there is so much tension right now. It is not just about Epstein, specifically, it is about this being a representation of a huge Trump promise that has now not come to fruition. RAJU: Eric Burlison also said that he's getting calls about 501 into his office about this issue, which is why Republicans want to escape this but they're having a hard time escaping.

JOHN BRESNAN, CO-FOUNDER, PUNCHBOWL NEWS: No. There was a disaster this week on the Hill for them. I mean, we were -- all the three of us were up there. It was an absolute disaster. They've lost control of this whole issue. In fact, they're subpoenaing -- republicans are voting to issue subpoenas. They voted several times this week to issue subpoenas.

Of course, they, you know, issued -- they're going to issue subpoenas for Clinton -- Bill Clinton and Hillary Clinton and a bunch of former DOJ and officials. But what's stunning to me is the Maxwell thing. Congress has subpoenaed Maxwell now, and now we're having -- they're having talks here.

I don't -- like, I don't see where the end game is here. I don't see where Trump -- they've made it even worse now by doing what they're doing now. I don't see what their out is. It just seems they're just piling one disaster on to another. In terms of scandal, I don't see where it's going, and I don't see how it gets better for them.

FOX: And the difficult thing about a subpoena process, right, is that they don't go quickly. No, I've never seen Congress subpoena information and it get turned over the next day. And this virtually guarantees. This doesn't just go on for a couple of weeks. This goes on for months and for years.

RAJU: Yeah. And then, what they ultimately turnover? Do they not cooperate?

FOX: Right.

RAJU: How do Republicans respond if they don't cooperate. And then other things too. If this lawsuit against the Wall Street Journal goes forward, does Trump get deposed? And then what information comes out of the deposition? So, which is why that Trump says, let's change the focus, urging people to do so. But more and more developments continue to come out.

All right. Clearly the political world is laser focused on the Jeffrey Epstein saga, but what do swing voters across the country think. You'll hear for yourself after this break.

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RAJU: Democrats are on a mission to keep the Jeffrey Epstein scandal in the spotlight throughout Congress' August recess. According to Axios, the DNC is buying ads like this in 11 vulnerable Republican districts.

(PLAYING AD)

RAJU: There's also this one, accusing Republicans of covering up the Epstein files. The DNC says, it is a five-figure ad campaign, which is actually pretty small, especially when trying to reach 11 different districts. So, is this just performative or a sign of what's to come? My panel is back. So, is this an effective strategy for Democrats as they try to regain the House?

BRESNAN: Oh, yeah. I mean, just keep talking about Epstein. And Manu, like we reported yesterday, and you guys were covering it, they were introducing amendments. A number of committees, House and Senate, just talk about Epstein as much as you can talk about Epstein. There's no -- there's very --

RAJU: Can they stay on that message, though?

BRESNAN: Oh, sure. Why not? I mean, Trump's helping them, you know, why not. The Republicans are helping them. Like you talked about subpoenas. Subpoenas will be coming in, you know, later this month and next month, that's going to take a while. They can -- they should talk about this as much as they can for as long as they can. And I think, if this keeps Republicans on their back foot, why not, you know.

FOX: It's this remarkable moment, though, where Democrats have been struggling with messaging all year round. And who would have thunk that this was the issue that was going to sort of being Democrats. The other --

RAJU: Can they stay on that? Because they want to be like talk about healthcare or talk about this or whatever. Can they stay on this?

FOX: I think as long as their polling shows that this is an effective messaging strategy, they will continue to stay on this.

BRESNAN: And, Manu, why can't they talk about all this stuff. They can talk about Medicaid. They can talk about this. I mean, they should stay on this as much as they can. I think this is an effective because Republicans have shown up to this point, and that's why they left town, no ability to get in control in this scandal at all.

[12:20:00]

MANU: I say the Democrats were very strategic this week in forcing these issues in the Capitol. That's what forced the House essentially to cut short and leave that for recess early. They were successful in forcing through a subpoena for all the Epstein files that caught Republicans flat footed on that issue. So that's been -- they've had successful -- been successful in stymie the legislative agenda at the moment.

KEITH: And for whatever reason, Epstein is one of the rare unifying issues in American politics. That is the overwhelming majority of American voters who are polled, say they want more information released. It's a rare winner for everyone, but Republicans are having trouble because they can't release enough to satisfy the base, and so, this is something. But as you say, a five-figure ad campaign is really enough of an ad campaign to get us to talk about it and basically nothing more. That is not a lot of money in politics.

RAJU: Is the Trump team worried about this?

DAWSEY: Well, I mean, I do think if you talk to Democrats, and you guys have talked to more the members of the Hill than I have, but democratic sources. I mean, it's been a pretty demoralizing six or eight months since the election, right, watching Trump sort of come in and do what he's done. And in some ways, he's not having much ability to resist his agenda, sort of struggling what the message should be.

I think this is really the first time I've seen in the Trump world a sense that they've lost a little bit of control of the narrative in the presidency. For like, the last two weeks, I was talking to someone yesterday who was saying to me, you know, Trump has a sort of supernatural ability to often change a topic. And this week, it's been, you know, talking about Tulsi Gabbard and what she's saying about the Russia investigation, talking about XYZ, but none of its really sticking, right?

And so, we saw him again today, try and do that as well. It seems like this is a first time in the presidency that he's really tried to move a new cyclone away and has not been able to do it. Now, whether that section, I mean, you guys all know, politics is pretty ephemeral. This could go away in two weeks. We could be talking about something extraordinarily different and like part of the presidency. But this is really the first time I've seen him not be able to move it the way he wants to.

RAJU: No question about it. So how do voters feel about all this? There's actually some focus group sound that we -- that just came in from Nevada voters who voted for Biden in 2020 and Trump in 2024. Now you listen to these voters. All 12 of these voters know who Epstein is. Six of the 12 say Trump is covering up Epstein to protect his own reputation. Six of the six though, and this first group of voters say inflation matters more than Epstein.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It just feels like typical Trump deflection, right? Like, give me a straight answer about Jeff Epstein, and let's move forward, right? But instead, I'm going to talk about all my successes. I'm going to get you kind of thinking like, oh, this is a minor topic.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I feel that he has fear about if this gets turned out, what would happen to him. So, he is trying to -- as someone had said, deflect.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think we have more to worry about in our economy and things that's going on with us in the United States than someone that is already -- it's out of the picture.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think they're bigger fish to fry. You know, how is that going to affect while I do have empathy for the people who have been affected? How does that affect my life right now? UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The economy is what it is. I have very little I can do with the economy, but I can say that I want to know everything about that steam. I want the entire American public to know exactly who's being protected?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

RAJU: So, it's kind of conflicting.

BRESNAN: But the economy is not great news for the moment, for Trump either. If whole numbers and economy have softened a lot. His approval rating, I mean, Wall Street Journal had a poll today, a good approval ratings, but Gallup showed real bad numbers. He's losing independence. His economic numbers are not great, talking about inflation.

So, but it's not Epstein, so we'd want to talk about that. But it's still, it's not -- it's not necessarily going from strength to strength with Trump. It's going from a disaster to a problem area, but at least when he's comfortable talking about.

DAWSEY: It was an extraordinary scene yesterday with him going to the Federal Reserve right, and sort of haranguing the chair of the Federal Reserve on camera. In Winslow, (Ph) we've seen a president go to the Federal Reserve and challenge a Federal Reserve chair on camera, put a hard hat on, and then do a press conference calling on him to lower rates. It was not exactly subtle what he was trying to accomplish there. I mean, that was certainly an effort to move to another topic.

RAJU: Subtlety is not what Trump is known for.

KEITH: Why the interest rates lower? 3 percent, that's all I need.

RAJU: Yeah. I mean -- and also look, in that same -- that same focus group. Seven of the 12 participants, they say they disapprove of Trump more generally. So, well, you know, Epstein economy is more important. You know, the economy is more important than anything else. Perhaps has an impact on the other overall view of Trump, I think about a lot of times I can try to think about this. I think about the way Afghanistan. It was the -- it was not --

[12:25:00]

BRESNAN: August of 2021.

RAJU: August of 2021. Change everything --

(CROSSTALK)

RAJU: Change your -- and that's not necessarily a voting issue for many, not voters, but it affects the perception of the president.

KEITH: Yeah. And in that case, the Biden people had come and saying, we're going to be the competent ones. We're going to handle everything competently. And then Afghanistan changed the focus. Trump comes in as I'm going to be the truth teller like, you know, that is the message to the base. And then, now what you're hiding something? You were supposed to be the one that was going to blow up the establishment, and now you're saying, well, but believe the FBI. It is a challenge. But I still -- I still think that in the end, come the midterms, it's about the economy and the president owns this economy. He is doing so much with tariffs and everything else. This is his economy, and either he -- you know, Republicans win or lose on how it's doing.

RAJU: Yeah. And we'll say a long time till then, which is why he's berating Jay Powell to lower interest rates today. He said that he believes that Powell will. Was that wishful thinking or something actual happen. That's definitely discussion for the days ahead.

All right, next. The cost of doing business. Paramount's mega deal gets the go ahead from the Trump administration, but only after saying yes, to some conditions. What they are, in minutes?

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