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Isa Soares Tonight
Ukraine Liberates City Of Kherson; Biden Touts U.S. Climate Action; CNN Documentary Uncovers Brain Collection; Ukraine Liberate Kherson Region West Of Dnipro River; Iranian Athletes Show Support For Protesters; Danish Brain Collection A "Time Capsule" Of Mental Illness. Aired 2-3p ET
Aired November 11, 2022 - 14:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[14:00:00]
JULIA CHATTERLEY, HOST, ISA SOARES TONIGHT: A warm welcome to the show, everyone, I'm Julia Chatterley in for Isa Soares. And coming up tonight.
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CHATTERLEY: Ukrainians celebrate the city of Kherson's liberation. We have all the details of this momentous day in Russia's war on Ukraine. Then,
President Biden says the U.S. is doing its part to avoid climate hell, and calls on the rest of the world to do the same. And later, incredible access
to a unique brain bank. CNN's Sanjay Gupta shows us what we can learn about mental disorders from 10,000 human brains held in this collection.
And we begin with what appears to be a major victory for Ukraine and a crushing defeat for Moscow. Ukraine's flags are flying once again in
Kherson's Freedom Square, after the country's troops entered and liberated the city, which has been occupied by Russian forces since the beginning of
the war.
Kherson was the only regional capital that Russia had been able to capture. Now, they've retreated to Dnipro River's east bank. And Ukraine is securing
control of the rest of the region. This was the scene just hours ago when Ukrainian fighters reached Kherson city.
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CHATTERLEY: Cheering and crying in both happiness and relief. Yet, despite their celebrations, Ukrainian officials are still urging caution, some
saying troops, Russian troops, may have remained behind in civilian clothing. And another risk, new satellite images show that a critical dam
in the Kherson region has been damaged in the past 24 hours.
Last month, Ukraine accused Russian forces of laying mines along the structure. Now, CNN was on the scene in a small town relatively close to
Kherson, right after its liberation. And this was Nic Robertson's report.
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NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR (on camera): Everyone is telling us we are the first reporters here. Literally, the Ukrainian
troops only arrived here yesterday, liberated the town. The Russians left two days before -- as you drive into the town here, everyone's waving,
everyone's happy. People we've talked to here have horror stories to tell about their treatment by the Russians, particularly over the last few days.
I give you an idea of what you're seeing behind me. You're seeing a couple of young teenagers here with the Ukrainian flags on their shoulders. They
were the first to raise the flag when the Russians left even before the troops arrived. So sort of a pre-liberation by teenagers here, and they
tell us that a month ago, somebody had been shot here, shot and killed, for raising a Ukrainian flag.
And in the middle of the crowd here, everyone is gathered -- we're sort of in the center of the town, outside the administrative buildings here.
That's the regional government. He is just visiting here, he's just arrived in the last few minutes. He's explaining to people how they're going to get
support from the Ukrainian government in the coming days.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CHATTERLEY: And our Nic Robertson joins us now from Kryvyi Rih in Ukraine. Nic, you have vast experience of witnessing occupied territory liberated.
Just compare what you've experienced over the last 24 hours with what you've seen in the past, and the people that you've spoken to.
ROBERTSON: Yes, I have just been talking about this with my colleagues as well, because I don't think any of us had experienced anything quite like
this before, where you arrive into a town so soon after it's been liberated, so the feelings and emotions of people that you pick up on are
so raw.
You know, there -- out there on the streets for the first time, you know, as we saw relatives hugging each other because they realize that, you know,
that they both survived that -- the horrors at the way Russian troops have treated them, taking them into forced detention, beating them, some people
-- some people quite literally disappearing, relieved to be reunited.
And these are all raw emotions in front of you, an old lady, a pensioner, who had, you know, felt that her life was in danger because the Russian
troops, they had told her they were going to smash her head. She was in tears reliving this and re-counting it and telling us.
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There was something of a -- you know, that sense of freedom and a party atmosphere in the town. It was strange because it was quiet, because people
were -- they were a bit muted, but at the same time, you know, this sort of effervescence, but not really coming out, the sense of relief, and that's
what really struck us. I don't think any of us have ever been in a place where you feel that.
Wherever -- from the moment you drive in, we drove into that town today, people were waving at us as we drove by. They were out, you know, standing
by the side of the road, away from their houses, waving. There were very few vehicles coming in, probably, we were the only ones that were in
military, maybe they thought we were the military, and maybe that's why they were waving. But that sense that they were treating us like liberators
there, that was -- you know, those are powerful emotions to witness.
CHATTERLEY: I mean, we're seeing it now, and we're showing this on screen. People crying as you said, lifting up soldiers. It is emotional, really, to
witness, too. On the opposite side, Nic, of course, what we've seen is a strategic and a very strategic, it seems, withdrawal of the Russian troops.
Talk to me about what now appears to be, even if strategized and forecast as well by Russian officials, a strategic defeat in this region that they
still are saying remains annexed and part of Russia?
ROBERTSON: And I think that gets to the number, the issue for them, that they can't even bring themselves to say that they lost it, and they're not
going to get it back. It seems beyond remote, even though, they could consider coming back across the Dnipro River, certainly, in the near
future.
The Ukrainian military are only going to get stronger from this point, and Russia hasn't been strong enough to hold them back so far. And the fact
that Russia still says that Kherson is still part of Russia, it just tells you the delusion that they're trying to perpetrate amongst the Russian
people. And it's not clear if the leadership believes that.
They certainly understand that this has been a very -- you know, a potentially damaging -- politically-damaging moment for them. I think the
fact that they said that they pulled out 30,000 troops, that they pulled without loss, that they pulled out 5,000 pieces of military equipment
without loss. That's all this trying to create the narrative that they've done the right thing, that they've succeeded.
That this, somehow is a sort of victory. When patently, what they're saying isn't even true. We witnessed on the ground many of their weapons still
left lying, ammunition left, vehicles, equipment, military equipment, tanks, armored personnel carriers, troop carrying trucks, all sorts of
things damaged and left behind.
So, what the Russians leadership are telling their people just isn't true. And I think the danger for them is that, the Russians now understand that.
They understand that their troops are going and dying in big numbers, and that what their leadership is telling them is false. And that clearly
undermines President Putin, who, in the past, has managed to survive and sort of appearing to be infallible.
CHATTERLEY: Yes, tough to craft the message in this situation. Nic, great to have you with us, thank you. Nic Robertson there. I want to get more
context here and the perspective of Andriy Zagorodnyuk; he's the former Ukrainian defense minister and Distinguished Fellow at the Atlantic
Council. Andriy, good to have you with us. And you and I have spoken --
ANDRIY ZAGORODNYUK, DISTINGUISHED FELLOW, ATLANTIC COUNCIL: Yes --
CHATTERLEY: Many times over the past --
ZAGORODNYUK: Yes --
CHATTERLEY: Several months. We can talk about what we're seeing strategically here, but first, I just want to get your emotional response
to seeing these images of celebrating people in the Kherson region.
ZAGORODNYUK: Well, of course, this is our -- one of our biggest cities, most important cities coming back to home. And certainly, this is a great
joy to us. And we've been expecting this for some time. And we -- there's been many skeptics which were saying it's not going to happen, because
Russia was enforcing this war for a long time, but it's ours, It's back home, it's back in Ukraine. So sure, for us, it's a huge deal, and it is a
massive reinforcement of our strategy to get back the whole territory.
CHATTERLEY: And a huge boost -- a huge boost to morale --
ZAGORODNYUK: Yes --
CHATTERLEY: I'm sure, too. There's two things here. There's the strategic exit by the Russians, which I want to get your take on in a moment. But now
--
ZAGORODNYUK: Yes --
CHATTERLEY: There's the strategy for the Ukrainian forces. We are heading deeper and deeper into Winter. What would you be advising at this stage?
Is it a case of stay where you are, consolidate what you've taken back, or would you expect Ukrainian forces and the government to monopolize now on
this moment and continue to push to take more back?
ZAGORODNYUK: We must continue pushing. We have a moment. We are in the moment of the success. We are -- we're having substantial successes like
several months in a row. There's absolutely no way we can stop and just, you know, and just wait.
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And Winter -- OK, well, it's not the first time we are fighting in the Winter time. We've been fighting in the Winter time for eight years. So,
it's nothing new to us. So, I'm sure we're going to continue.
CHATTERLEY: And in terms of the caution that's being suggested by the Ukrainians at this moment, whether it's Russian forces that remain in this
area, but are now dressed in plain clothes or the risk, I think of mines or potential missile attacks. How concerned are you by safety, even now in
this area?
ZAGORODNYUK: Yes, it's concerning, of course. I mean, sorry that's very high likely. Mines are a 100 percent. So, they mined a lot of areas. So, of
course, it's very dangerous. So we don't advise our Kherson residents to come back to their homes straightaway. We need to clean them for mines, and
that will take some time.
And also, these guys Russian soldiers, yes, there are, and I'm sure that there are a lot of them, but not critical enough. So, it's not a strategic
call, it's more like a technical problem, which we need to address. Many of them could not evacuate on time, and so they're hiding around the elders.
We will of course, get them.
We will provide them treatment according to international laws. They have a chance to surrender, and we promise that they will be treated with respect.
CHATTERLEY: And that's what the Ukrainian Intelligence officials have said today, they're pleading --
ZAGORODNYUK: Yes --
CHATTERLEY: For the Russians that do remain to surrender at this moment. What about for Russia --
ZAGORODNYUK: Yes --
CHATTERLEY: And the Russian forces here? What do you expect from them? Because I think there's also a fear of perhaps, repercussions in terms of
other parts of Ukraine, potential missile attacks. I mentioned in the introduction, to the dam, the strategically important dam that we now
believe, or at least the Ukrainian officials are saying has been damaged in the last 24 hours. Talk me through the importance of that and your --
ZAGORODNYUK: OK, so, the dam is important. It's important, certainly. They may damage and if that happens, it's a substantial issue. We also believe
that they would be trying to somehow compensate the laws in the Russian media through some attacks, and show them in the Russian media as some sort
of type of regulation.
So, we expect acceleration of fighting in the next few weeks, days, whatever. But also, we believe that they will be throwing lots of these
troops which they took from Kherson to east,, and I believe we will see installation in the east for sure, because for the Russian military
leadership to sell the idea of surrendering itself to Ukraine, to Putin, they needed to compensate it with something else.
That's what analysts are saying, and that's what we agree with them. And I believe that they will be accelerating in the east, so they need to show
that they still can do something. So the war is not over, and despite great achievement as Kherson is, we're still in the middle of a very severe
crisis at the moment.
CHATTERLEY: Andriy, great to chat you, thank you so much once again --
ZAGORODNYUK: Thank you very much --
CHATTERLEY: For your time today, and I apologize --
ZAGORODNYUK: Welcome --
CHATTERLEY: To our viewers for a little bit of connection issues there. Bear with us. Thank you once again, sir. OK, joining us now from Kyiv is
CNN's chief international anchor Christiane Amanpour. Christiane, great to have you with us too. Your perspective, thoughts, insights on what we've
seen today.
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Well, it's remarkable. And it certainly happened faster than most in the Ukrainian
government thought it would do. I sat down with the president of Ukraine just two days ago, and I asked him about the status of the counteroffensive
to liberate Kherson, and he said to me, look, well, I'm not going to answer you.
We have a plan. We have a strategy. But I'm not going to give it away. But he did warn at that time that look, the Russians would still duck in,
certainly, on the east side of that river towards, you know -- closer to the Russian side. And as you just heard from the former defense minister,
they are still concerned that they may be plain clothes soldiers still in Kherson, that there may be lots of mines, that there may be all sorts of,
you know, other trouble waiting.
So they are, according to the president, in his nightly address tonight, President Zelenskyy has said that the first people to enter Kherson will be
special forces, special police and security sweeps, to make sure that it is safe for people. And as you heard from the defense minister, this war is
not over yet.
But this is a major step because Kherson also is so vitally strategically importantly located, and also the president tonight, saying that this is a
historic day. And Julia, of course, it's arms to stay. And so, it's a remarkable coincidence, if you like.
CHATTERLEY: Yes, poignant, I think, in many ways. Christiane, can I get your thoughts and wisdom, particularly among the conversations that you're
having about whether or not this strategic win and the celebrations and the morale boost in some way changes the calculus to coming to the negotiating
table on either side?
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Let's be clear and negotiate some kind of solution here? I think up until this point, the Ukrainian governments have been absolute that there will be
no negotiation until Russians have left all territory in Ukraine. Do you think this changes something?
AMANPOUR: I think it changes the fact that the Ukrainians keep getting a stronger hand with every day, with every week, with every -- you know,
battle that passes, they are the ones who are winning at the moment. So that, you know, is something that Russia has to decide, whether they want
to negotiate from that perspective.
But as you said, and I asked this specifically to the Ukrainian president, because there has been some talk among some foreign policy pundits, from
the U.K., from the United States, that actually, what the United States should do is bring the two sides to the table. What the President Zelenskyy
said to me, you know, that's all well and good, but based on what?
We haven't heard the slightest intention of President Putin to step back from his Maximalist demands. He's still talking about denazifying,
demilitarizing, and as President Zelenskyy says, everything he says begins with a D. But he said, look, you know, we want -- we want them out of the -
- of the country. We want independence guaranteed. We want accountability for war crimes.
We want reparations for war damages. I mean, there's a huge list. They want justice. And they are not celebrating early. They are pleased with their
progress, but they know that this is still going to be a long haul. And they're -- you know, putting their heads down. They're using, you know,
obviously very well, all the weaponry and ammunition and training and support they're getting from United States and all the NATO allies, and you
can see that it's bearing fruit and it's paying off on the battlefield.
Still, the Russians are in the Kherson region. They still have a lot of people, even though they are taking very heavy casualties, and importantly,
Julia, even though a big split seems to be emerging and has been for a while, but really seems to be coming to a head. Between what the Kremlin
says and what many in the defense establishment says.
CHATTERLEY: Which is exactly what I was going to ask you. Christiane, great to get your insights. Thank you so much for that, Christiane --
AMANPOUR: Thank you --
CHATTERLEY: Amanpour in Kyiv. OK, still to come tonight, promises, targets and infrastructure winds. We'll look at U.S. President Joe Biden's address
at the COP27 Climate Summit. And inching ever closer towards the final election results. We're live in one of the critical U.S. states that could
determine control of the U.S. Senate. Stay with us.
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CHATTERLEY: Welcome back. Good climate policy is good economic policy. That's what U.S. President Joe Biden stressed Friday, as he addressed the
COP27 Climate Summit in Egypt. He called on nations around the world to quote, "step up" to combat greenhouse gas emissions, while tooting his own
climate infrastructure winds back home.
But there was no mention of the loss and damage funds to help developing countries, which has been a key topic at this year's summit. CNN's David
McKenzie is at the summit in Sharm El-Sheikh, Egypt and he joins us now. Unfortunately, David, that's what everybody wanted to hear about, but we
have to understand the work behind the scenes that will go into producing that.
How hopeful are people that something can be produced, even if it's just what you discussed with John Kerry and some kind of carbon emission token
swapping to allow people to pay for EMT transition?
DAVID MCKENZIE, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, that won't cut it, in fact, in terms of the overall impact that is needed to be dealt
with in loss and damage. So, I think first and foremost, this was an attempt by the president to reset the way that the world, in his eyes,
hopefully views the U.S.' commitment to climate change.
Because in fact, he even apologized for President Trump withdrawing from the Paris Agreement. He touted, as you say, his own legislative
achievements when it comes to climate change this year. And he did speak in detail about what the U.S. is doing to help vulnerable countries to adapt
to climate change.
That took a big portion of the speech. I think one thing was interesting, is that of course, with inflationary pressure and with the war in Ukraine,
many countries, particularly in Europe, have been looking to sub-Saharan Africa and elsewhere to try and exploit fossil fuels for the energy
security. He says, in fact, that's the wrong way to go about it. And this is the time to really transition more rapidly to a greener economy.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: It's more urgent than ever that we double down on our climate commitments. Russia's war only enhances the
urgency of the need to transition the world off its dependants on fossil fuels. No action, no action, can be taken without a nation understanding
that it can use energy as a weapon and hold the global economy hostage. It must stop.
And so, this gathering must be the moment to recommit our future and our shared capacity to write a better story for the world.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MCKENZIE: And one of the other issues at this climate change conference has been that the U.S. and China, China, of course, the world's biggest
emitter currently, have not been talking formerly. There is a hope though, with President Biden meeting Xi Jinping in the G20 next week, that this
thaw could happen. And at least, the climate could be an area that the two countries will cooperate. Julia?
CHATTERLEY: Yes, David, you know, it's fascinating. Earlier today, I spoke to Vanessa Nakate, she's a climate activist from Uganda. And I got her
reaction to President Biden's speech, and she said, look, it's not good enough. He is failing. The United States is failing, we are the polluters,
ultimately. It's the bigger developed nations like the United States, like the West, China, of course, we can throw in there as you did.
Africa is not responsible. It needs more help. How do you think developing nations like the continent of Africa actually respond to what Biden said in
his speech?
MCKENZIE: Well, of course, each nation will have their own priorities. It's a diverse continent. But I think broadly speaking, developing nations
may be slightly disappointed that the president didn't speak more specifically about the issue of loss and damage, what some are calling
reparations. That's not quite that.
It's more funding to come -- excuse me, for that noise. Funding to come for developing nations to try and deal with the worst effects. And as that
climate activists told you, they are disappointed. Many will think that the U.S. cutting its emissions is a baseline that they should do just as a
responsible country, and it shouldn't necessarily be applauded beyond that.
What they're looking for is something that is far more expansive, tricky to negotiate, and potentially more impactful for developing nations. And
that's to help them deal with the mess that rich countries created.
CHATTERLEY: Yes, more required in terms of adoption, finance, transition. It's not just about investing in renewables. David, great to have you
there, and great to have you with us, thank you. David McKenzie there. OK, let's move on. Hour by hour, the stacks of ballots are getting smaller, but
there are still hundreds of thousands of midterm votes to be counted in two U.S. states before we know who will control the Senate.
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In Nevada, a Democratic incumbent is gaining ground on her Republican rival, but still, lags behind. And in Arizona, the frontrunner has a bit
more breathing room, but it's still too close to call. And the third Senate race, of course, is also at play in Georgia. That one is heading for a
runoff next month.
Let's bring in Josh Campbell, he's in Phoenix, Arizona, with the very latest for us. Hour by hour, we get closer. Are we going to see a result
there in Arizona by the end of this evening? What can you tell us, Josh?
JOSH CAMPBELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Julia, I just got off with an official from the county elections board here, who says we are expected to get a
release of additional ballots tonight around the 8:00 p.m. local time hour, but they are still far from done. They have several hundred thousand
ballots still to be counted here in the largest, most populated county in the state of Arizona.
Now, what is taking so long is that, here in the U.S., some states allow voters to receive a ballot by mail, they mark it up the person they would
like to vote for, they sent that in the mail, as long as it's received by election day, it gets counted. But they also have the option to take that
ballot to a polling place on election day and hand it to an election official.
That is what happened here in an unprecedented way. Some 290,000 ballots were submitted just that way, which means that there's a methodical process
involved in matching the signatures of the ballots and ensuring that the voter information matches. And so, election officials here are asking the
public for patience.
And you know, again, this is the largest, most populated county, but overall, in the U.S. state of Arizona, we're looking at still over half a
million ballots yet to be counted. Why is this important as you mentioned, particularly, for, you know, folks watching around the world, this could
impact U.S. foreign policy in the following way.
That is, if the U.S. Senate flips from Democrat to Republican, that will impact President Joe Biden's ability to move forward his policies in a
number of fronts, to include the war in Ukraine, to include climate change, as you just talked about with David McKenzie, to include a whole host of
important issues that are important to this White House.
If they face opposition in the United States Senate that blocks or slows some of the things that they want to accomplish, that could reverberate
worldwide. So we are watching this race, all eyes on the state of Arizona waiting to see what the final result will be. Again, we're expecting
another batch of ballots for release tonight. Officials say they still have a lot more work to do, Julia.
CHATTERLEY: Yes, and in the meantime, we'll not so patiently await those results. But we have to wait for every vote --
CAMPBELL: That's right --
CHATTERLEY: To be counted, yes. Josh, great to have you with us. Josh Campbell there in Arizona. Thank you. OK, still to come tonight, more on
our main story this hour. The liberation of Ukraine city of Kherson and the region west of Dnipro River. We'll discuss this major Ukrainian victory
after this. Stay with CNN.
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CHATTERLEY: Welcome back with a reminder once again of our top story today. Ukrainian troops entering the city of her song after a Russian retreat.
It's a major victory to Kyiv in one of the biggest setbacks for Russia's Vladimir Putin since his invasion began. Kherson was the only Ukrainian
regional capital his forces had managed to take.
Ukraine's armed forces are accusing the Russian side of destroying critical infrastructure in Kherson as they withdraw from the region. Satellite
images obtained by CNN show new damage to a critical dam spanning Dnipro River as we were discussing earlier, and images on social media show that a
main bridge in the Kherson region has been destroyed.
I wanted to bring in now Tymofiy Mylovanov. He's the president of the Kyiv School of Economics and an adviser to the Ukrainian President Volodymyr
Zelenskyy and he joins us now from Kyiv. Tymofiy, great to have you on the show. Your first observations in light of the celebrations and the
rejoicing that we've seen today from Ukraine.
TYMOFIY MYLOVANOV, ADVISER TO THE UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT This is great, you know. We have been waiting for this moment since the beginning of the war.
It was indeed the only original capital that was taken. And that's the area or the direction (INAUDIBLE) 213 couldn't put up proper resistance. And
because Kherson has been taken or had been taken, it posed a threat to Mykolaiv and Odesa. But now, that's in the past.
CHATTERLEY: How much of a morale boost, do you think it is to not only Ukrainian forces, but also for Ukrainian citizens, some of whom are still
living in illegally annexed regions? And I'm still concerned as we push into the winter months.
MYLOVANOV: Oh, it's huge. I mean, it's huge for me personally, because Kherson is symbolic. I've been there so many times. There are some other
areas which make me very, very emotional. This is the area that everyone knows, this is where, you know, a lot of our culture is coming from. And
so, I think people everywhere, including in those occupied territories that are waiting for liberation, now see that even this is possible. So, we'll
keep winning, we'll keep getting our territory back, we'll keep saving our civilians.
CHATTERLEY: Tymofiy, in terms of that emotional response, you discussed it, I think, even as someone from outside the country who've spent a little bit
of time there, we'll be honest, seeing those images of that boy putting the flag back up in Freedom Square, just describe how that moment, I'm sure
you've seen it on social media, too, feels.
MYLOVANOV: Yes, you know, there are videos like that. There are also videos -- I know some of my businessmen, they already trend, they already sent in
trucks of equipment there to Kherson, food, trying to restore operations as soon as possible. We are fighters you know, it's our land. And it makes me
shiver, if I can say that. I mean, it's really, really a big deal for all of us. And this shows basically that Russia is stopped, can be stopped, and
they have to leave Ukraine. And if they don't do that, we will take our territory back anyway.
CHATTERLEY: Tymofiy, I think one of the big concerns, and you can tell me if you share them, is what comes next from Russia's aside, whether there is
a price to pay because they retreated from this region. How worried are you by that, particularly given what we saw back in October in just a few days,
saw critical infrastructure in Ukraine targeted and obviously people losing things like heat and light?
MYLOVANOV: Absolutely. You can even see my setup at the moment. But Russia always does something nasty. It hits back at civilians when it has any kind
of military losses. And so, I won't be surprised actually, I'm expecting something like that to happen, where they're going to hit. You know,
they've been terrorizing us throughout the entire Ukraine. I just, you know --
[14:35:00]
Frankly I've gotten used to bombing, you know. I'm in Kyiv, and last time, they had the different missiles outside of my apartment. I just said that,
excuse my language, OK, it -- and I just went to shower while the water was still on. I shouldn't be saying this probably. But, you know, you -- it
gets normalized. It shouldn't. People die. It's not right. It's war crimes. I think we are used to it. We are willing to pay the price. It's our land.
We are free nation. Russians will not subdue us. But you're correct, they will come up with something nasty in the next several days or weeks.
CHATTERLEY: Tymofiy, I think there are many people out there that will share your sentiments on the word that you couldn't say and we don't want
to normalize this kind of violence. But what you are, I think, suggesting is that there's no amount of suffering actually that the country will
undergo that will make you give up in this situation and that people will continue to fight.
MYLOVANOV: True. That's so true.
CHATTERLEY: Tymofiy, great to have you on the show. Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts with us today. The President of the Kyiv School of
Economics and adviser to the Ukrainian president. So, once again, thank you.
And let's move on. Another high-profile Iranian athlete is showing her support for Iran's women as protests continue across the country. New Video
shows Archer Parmida Ghasemi talking and taking to the podium, before then letting her headscarf fall to the ground. You can see that there. It's been
seen as a defiant gesture against Iran's mandatory hijab rule.
And you'll remember, Ghasemi is not the first athlete to make a public stand against the regime. Just days ago, Iranian beach football player,
Saeed Piramoon made this symbolic hair cutting gesture. And last month the Iranian climber, Elnaz Rekabi, competed in South Korea without her
headscarf. These symbolic acts come as the Ukrainian government is continuing its brutal crackdown. According to the United Nations, as many
as 14,000 people have been arrested since September.
And one of the most recent public figures to be arrested is Elham Afkari. She's the sister of the late Iranian wrestler, Navid Afkari, who is seen
with her in this picture. Elham was accused of -- by Tehran of being an agent working for an opposition broadcaster, charges which she denies. And
according to Amnesty International, she was arrested due to her "familial ties." Her brother, Navid, was executed in 2020 after being convicted of
murder.
And still to come, CNN takes you inside a collection of over 10,000 human brains. Yes, you heard me right. For a deeper understanding of mental
health disorders, that incredible story next with none other than our very own Sanjay Gupta. Stay with us.
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[14:40:31]
CHATTERLEY: Welcome back. And we want to share an extraordinary story with you now about a massive collection in Denmark that you won't find anywhere
else in the world. From 1945 to 1982, nearly 10,000 human brains, you heard me right, were taken from psychiatric patients who died in Danish hospitals
throughout the country. And they now form Denmark's brain collection, the focus of a special documentary premiering this weekend on CNN reported by
our Chief Medical Correspondent, Dr. Sanjay Gupta. Here's a clip. And I do want to warn you that it does include images of the brain that some might
find disturbing.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Today, he's examining a whole brain from the modern brain bank, not yet touched, prodded, or poked,
I'm going to show it to you just as we first saw it, but I want to warn you, because this is not something the human brain is accustomed to seeing.
Itself.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. GUPTA: You can see how it looks. Wow. So, this is just a water, so it's -- yes. So this is how it looks. This is just a remarkable look at the
brain. And looking at the left side of the brain first, front, back, frontal lobe, occipital lobe, temporal lobe, parietal lobe, same on the
other side. Let me show you something very few people ever get to see. This is the base of the brain. This is the brainstem, which is arguably the most
valued real estate in the brain. It controls everything that you do without thinking, your breathing, your heart rate, your heartbeat.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DR. GUPTA: There's something else Mikkel has to show me, something I've actually never seen. Again, a word of caution.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MIKKEL VESTERGAARD OLESEN, SENIOR RESEARCHER, BISPEBJERG HOSPITAL: First of all, this is what a normal brain should look like. You can see the natural
sort of folds of the brain, and most importantly, you can see this white matter area in the middle of the brain over here, that is normal. That is
what it should look like.
But if you come over here, you see those same areas of the brain in the frontal lobe, that white matter area has been destroyed on both sides of
the brain. Someone put an instrument in there. You can see even where they put the instrument in. And they just sort of scraped away the white matter.
On both sides, right and left. See it over here as well, that is what a lobotomy looks like.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GUPTA: Let me be clear about something. Seeing this is not for shock value. The lobotomy is an integral part of Denmark psychiatric history. During the
time the brain collection was running, Denmark reportedly did more lobotomies per capita than any other country in the world.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CHATTERLEY: Wow. And Dr. Sanjay Gupta joins us now to talk more about this. Sanjay, that was my initial response. I think the first thing that I think
about is concern when you're talking about psychiatric patients, but I know you'll talk about this. You're obviously a practicing neurosurgeon. You
have far more experience with this subject matter than most people watching this, who'll -- who will watch this, but even for you seeing that lobotomy
was a first. Just describe what it was like to even see that.
DR. GUPTA: Yes. I mean, that was -- it was almost emotional a little bit, Julia, because, you know, I think so much of what we do in neurosurgery and
medicine overall, is to preserve tissue, to care for it and to try and heal it.
To see that those brains, having gone through a lobotomy where these instruments were pushed -- put in and the brain was essentially just
scraped away, trying to disconnect the frontal lobe from the rest of the brain. It was it was almost a little bit painful to see that, that those
procedures were done.
And keep in mind, you know, this was a commonly done thing, Julia. The doctor who pioneered this procedure won the Nobel Prize for this in 1949.
And these were done all over the world. But in my lifetime, certainly at the time that I've currently been in this neurosurgical career, these
procedures, understandably, were not performed. So it was like a trip back in time to sort of see the evolution of our medical history here.
[14:45:02]
CHATTERLEY: All right. It's sort of overwhelming. Let's talk about the collection itself. How did that even come about? To your point, it was --
it's effectively a time capsule. And what happens next with it? Does it ultimately help I guess medical science?
DR. GUPTA: Well, you know, first of all, in terms of how it came about, in some ways, it was an act of desperation, meaning that you -- Denmark,
ironically, you know, one of the happiest countries in the world now, at one point, had a significant history of mental illness. And more lobotomies
were being done per capita than really anywhere else in the world.
Doctors didn't know what to do for these patients. That was the bottom line. And in some ways, they had the foresight to say, look, we don't know
what the future holds. We don't know how science will evolve. If we start taking brains from people who are mentally ill, who have died and preserve
them, maybe they could provide some answers in the future. There was two issues. One, it was very ethically challenged, because patients could not
provide consent. So for, you know, decades, this has sort of been under -- underground literally in these basements of academic centers.
But the second thing is that, you know, when it comes to things like schizophrenia, we have not made a lot of progress. We know how to treat the
symptoms better, and we know about how inheritable it is. If someone has schizophrenia, the chance that their child has it is quite high. It's
almost as inheritable as height, for example. Tall parent, tall child. But we don't know a lot more about that.
This brain collection, this treasure trove of brains that is sort of this time capsule, maybe it'll provide some answers now that some of these
ethical challenges have been addressed or at least mostly addressed. Maybe there could be some answers here for some of the most bewildering and
difficult to treat mental illnesses.
CHATTERLEY: It's giving me goose bumps for all sorts of reasons. I actually can't wait to see it. Sanjay, fantastic to have you with us as always. And
wow, what a documentary. Thank you.
DR. GUPTA: Thank you.
CHATTERLEY: CNN's Chief Medical Correspondent there. Thank you. And be sure to catch that special documentary this weekend. The World's Untold Stories,
The Brain Collectors. That's going to be airing throughout the weekend here on CNN.
OK, and still to come tonight, more turmoil at Twitter, if possible. The company suspends its new paid verification system just two days after its
official launch. We'll explain why next.
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[14:50:00]
CHATTERLEY: Welcome back. A senior South Korean police inspector, who was under investigation over the deadly Halloween crowd crush, has been found
dead in his home. Thousands of mourners have held vigils to memorialize the victims as the public has demanded the police be held accountable. The
police station where the inspector worked was raided after 156 people died in the massive crash despite prior warnings about overcrowding.
And China seems to be easing up on its zero-COVID policy. Travelers can say goodbye to travel bans and hello to shorter quarantines. CNN's Selina Wang
has all the details from Beijing.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SELINA WANG, CNN CORRESPONDENT: China is easing some of its zero-COVID rules as the economic toll and public frustrations over the harsh policy
continue to grow. These new measures include cutting down the amount of time inbound travelers and close contacts have to spend in quarantine, down
from ten days in total to eight days. Having just wrapped up a 10-day government quarantine myself, this is seen as a small but very welcomed
move by overseas travelers.
The government is also scrapping a penalty system for airlines that bring in travelers with COVID. Another important change is that the government is
no longer identifying close contacts of COVID-infected people, which means fewer people will be sent to government quarantine facilities. But the key
restrictions of this zero-COVID policy are still in place. Communities can still go into lockdown over a small number of COVID cases. COVID cases and
close contacts are still going to be sent to government quarantine facilities.
A recent PCR test is still mandatory to enter public places, and our daily lives in China will still be dictated by the color of our health codes that
allows the government to track virtually all 1.4 billion people. Restrictions are also ramping up in major cities across China, including
here in Beijing, as cases number in the thousands each day. Now this is small by international standards, but cause for a major response in China.
This is a country that has gone through nearly three years of harsh COVID restrictions.
These are baby steps towards loosening the policy, but this country is still far, far away from the rest of the world that is learning to live
with COVID. Selina Wang, CNN, Beijing.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CHATTERLEY: Hello, let's talk about Twitter now. Their new paid verification system touted by Elon Musk has been suspended just two days
after its launch. The move which allowed anyone to have a coveted blue tick on their profile has sparked a surge of fake accounts on the social media
platform.
Joining us now is CNN's Oliver Darcy. I mean, the trolls have had a field day with this changing their profiles to someone that looks official but
clearly isn't, but they have the tick. It's been utter chaos for two days. Oliver, no surprise that Elon Musk has had to U-turn on this.
OLIVER DARCY, CNN SENIOR MEDIA REPORTER: No, no surprise given the chaos like you're pointing to. And I think the chaos spells a bigger problem, you
know. One, it's just not good if users don't know what's authentic and not authentic on the platform, but advertisers, advertisers, which Twitter
needs are already worried about placing their ads on this platform. And then you have this chaos with the verification system, people impersonating
brands, news outlets.
And you can imagine if you're an advertiser, you just don't want to be anywhere near this company. And Twitter is largely dependent on advertising
revenue. And so, if more companies pause their ad campaigns on Twitter, it's a big problem for them. Elon Musk himself came out yesterday in -- or
the day before yesterday in an employee note. And he told them if we don't increase revenue, we're going to have some problems. And it's possible this
company won't survive the economic downturn that we're going through. And so, if they don't have that advertising revenue, it's just, you know,
doesn't portend well for Twitter's future.
CHATTERLEY: I mean, he's been the first person to point out their financial hemorrhage on a daily basis of what this is costing. He also was honest
about having dramatically overpaid for this. So, the focus on monetizing this ultimately makes sense. But sort of at what cost of the credibility
and the utility ultimately of the platform? The thing is, he seems to be relatively unrepentant all the way through. Who knows what's going on in
his mind?
But I just want to show a tweet to our viewers where he says, "The awesome irony of this situation is that the media writing about Twitter and me
failing nonstop is driving massive growth in Twitter," which is really great, except how do you pay for it, Oliver, if you've frightened off
advertisers, and you've worked out that you can't charge the $8 because people are creating what cares as we've seen. I think my favorite one was
someone faking being Eli Lilly and telling everyone insulin is now free. I mean, wow.
DARCY: Wow. I mean, you. You can have as many people -- as many users as you want. If you can't monetize them, that's a problem for Elon Musk. And
he knows this because while he might attack the media for talking about whether Twitter can succeed, he himself is talking about it.
[14:55:05]
He held a meeting with Twitter employees yesterday where he said bankruptcy is on the table if we can't increase our revenue. And so, you know, you can
come out and attack the media. That's usually what people do when the circumstances aren't very good for them. But the bottom line is Twitter is
in a major trouble. If it can't up its revenue, and it can't up its revenue, if there are no advertisers and there won't be any advertisers if
there's chaos on the platform, which is what Elon Musk has really brought to Twitter.
CHATTERLEY: And also, this is a huge resource for media. Let's be clear. I mean, I had a conversation with Paul La Monica when this first happened.
And I said, look, I consider this cost in the same way that I do streaming and I'll pay the $8 a month. But it - it's got to be separate from actually
knowing who the person is behind that tick mark and knowing that it's authenticated and verified.
We shall see, bankruptcy or otherwise, Oliver. It's certainly going to be another lively week next week, I think. CNN Senior media reporter Oliver
Darcy keeps you busy. Anyway, thank you for that.
DARCY: Thank you.
CHATTERLEY: And thank you all for watching tonight. Stay with CNN. QUEST MEANS BUSINESS is up right after this.
END
