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Isa Soares Tonight
ICC Issues Arrest Warrants for Netanyahu and Gallant; Hochstein Pushes for Israel and Hezbollah Ceasefire; U.S. Asks Court to Force Good to Spin Off Chrome; Bolsonaro Indicted on 2022 Coup Attempt; Machine Learning Model Finds Lost Meadows; "The Simpsons" Star Retires. Aired 2:00-3p ET
Aired November 21, 2024 - 14:00 ET
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ERICA HILL, HOST, ISA SOARES TONIGHT: Thanks for joining us tonight on the show, I'm Erica Hill in for Isa Soares. Tonight, Matt Gaetz withdrawing
from consideration for Attorney General. The former Florida Congressman says his controversial confirmation was becoming a distraction. Plus,
Russia's President says he is entitled to target countries whose weapons are being used against Russia, while also confirming a strike on Ukraine
using a non-nuclear ballistic missile.
And the ICC issuing an arrest warrant for Benjamin Netanyahu. The historic move sees the Israeli Prime Minister accused of alleged war crimes and
crimes against humanity. We are following multiple breaking news story this hour. We begin with the first one out of Washington. The news that is
shaking up Donald Trump's transition plans.
Just a short time ago, Matt Gaetz withdrawing his name from consideration to be the President-elect's Attorney General. Posting on X, Gaetz said it
was clear that his confirmation was becoming a distraction. Trump had pushed hard for the former Florida congressman and loyalist to fill the
post despite serious concerns even among Trump allies about whether Gaetz could get confirmed by the Senate amid serious sexual misconduct
allegations.
Those concerns, in addition to a number of concerns over his lack of experience. Sources tell CNN, Trump does not at this point have a backup
Attorney General in mind. Katelyn Polantz is joining us now from Washington with the very latest. This resignation came actually just a short time
after some of our colleagues at CNN had reached out to him and his team for comment on some new reporting.
KATELYN POLANTZ, CNN CRIME & JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: That's right. Sarah Ferris and Paula Reid here at CNN had learned that there was a woman that
had spoken to the House Ethics Committee about having sex with Gaetz whenever. She was a minor, 17 years old at a party in 2017 that she had
told the House Ethics Committee that she had not one, but two sexual encounters with the congressman at that party.
That is something that Gaetz was investigated for criminally. There were no charges brought. He's denied having sex with a minor, a 17-year-old several
years ago. But this is also, Erica, what the House Ethics Committee was investigating, and from our other reporting, from other reporters
surrounding Capitol Hill, surrounding the Trump transition.
We are learning that there was an expectation that more damaging information about Matt Gaetz that the House Ethics Committee had learned
that it was going to be coming out, that the Senate nomination proceeding would be very tough for him to be questioned under oath, and that
ultimately he wasn't going to have the votes in the Senate for confirmation as Attorney General.
You mentioned that Donald Trump doesn't have a name in mind for who he may choose now to lead the Department of Justice as the chief law enforcement
officer, but there have been some names batted around, some really well- respected lawyers in the legal community, the Missouri Attorney General, but all of those names, that is so far away from what Matt Gaetz was and as
an Attorney General selection for Donald Trump.
Ultimately a short-lived one, one, a person who had never been a prosecutor in the federal government, had very little experience as a lawyer and had
made much of his public persona around attacking the work of the Department of Justice, department that Donald Trump had said previously he wanted
Gaetz to lead.
HILL: We will continue to watch this space for the next development. Katelyn Polantz joining us with the latest there from Washington. Katelyn,
thank you. Well, Donald Trump in response posting on social media saying that he greatly appreciates Gaetz's recent efforts in seeking to be
Attorney General, and that he has much respect for him.
Trump and members of his transition team were reportedly notified ahead of time that Gaetz would be making the announcement. Now, of course, he has to
find a replacement for Gaetz as Katelyn just noted, he does not have a backup plan at the moment, according to our reporting.
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As he is working to finalize that pick though, he also has some other outstanding key posts to fill, including Treasury Secretary and Labor
Secretary. Alayna Treene joining us with more on those fronts, she's also in Washington today. So, this was probably not one that they were hoping
they would have to revisit in terms of posts, given that there are still a number of key positions that Donald Trump still needs to nominate folks
for.
ALAYNA TREENE, CNN REPORTER: That's right. And we're learning a lot of details from my reporting, from the reporting of our colleague Kristen
Holmes about how this actually happened. First of all, I will say that it's exactly right that Donald Trump was really all in on Matt Gaetz. He had
been lobbying senators personally, Republican senators, I should say, who would be involved in his confirmation process to support him to get behind
him.
He really wanted someone in Matt Gaetz who would disrupt the Department of Justice. That is how one Donald Trump adviser described it to me. Now, I
will say, I was told by two different sources familiar with this one that they were informed of this decision beforehand, but also that this was Matt
Gaetz's decision to withdraw.
I was told that Gaetz had separately called up Donald Trump himself as well as J.D. Vance and informed them of this decision. Of course, I think we
have to figure out of whether or not he was being pressured at all about this, because another thing we know is that, you know, yesterday, he was on
Capitol Hill going around with J.D. Vance, meeting with these senators that were going to be crucial to whether or not he could pass through the Senate
confirmation process.
And those who were briefed on how those meetings went, the people in Trump world, I should say, who were briefed on how those meetings went and
reported back to, it was very clear to them that there were a lot of doubts about whether or not Gaetz could get confirmed.
There was a lot of uneasiness that they had recognized that senators were feeling, but then also, there were a lot of concerns of whether more would
come out. I think, Katelyn, just walked through perfectly, you know, whether or not -- you know, the House Ethics report would ultimately be
released.
So, the committee decided not to release it when they met yesterday, but they were deciding to move forward with it and try to finish it in
December. So, there's a lot of concern about more allegations, and of course, we had that new reporting from Paula Reid and Sarah Ferris about
another allegation.
And so, there was a lot that went into this. I think there's a couple key questions now as we look ahead. One is, who will Donald Trump pick to fill
this post? Andrew Bailey; the Missouri Attorney General is one name that Katelyn mentioned, I have heard that as well. People are also saying the
deputy Attorney General picked, Todd Blanche, one of Donald Trump's former criminal lawyers, who represented him in his New York hush money case.
He could potentially be replaced, but as of now, that is very unclear, they are far away from that discussion because, again, Matt Gaetz was the guy
that Donald Trump wanted. I do think, though, keep in mind, I think the bottom line here is that the Attorney General role, whoever is going to be
leading the Justice Department for Donald Trump, that is still in the President-elect's mind, the most important position in his cabinet and in
his future administration.
That is why he spent so much time and so much capital on wanting Matt Gaetz to get pushed through, to gathering support for him. And I do think that
even though we have a lot of these other roles, Treasury Secretary, Labor Secretary, Agriculture Secretary, I mean, there's a lot of roles that still
need to be filled. This will be a priority for Donald Trump and the transition team, Erica.
HILL: It certainly will, Alayna, appreciate it. Thank you. Also with me this hour with her insight, CNN political commentator, S.E. Cupp. S.E.,
good to see you. You know, sort of -- sort of picking up, actually, if we could just where Alayna left off, the fact that this is such an important
role as we know to Donald Trump, and the main requirement there is loyalty.
I was struck by something Ronna McDaniel was on just a short time ago with Dana Bash, and Dana was asking her as this news was breaking about it, and
she was saying how the pick of Jeff Sessions in his first term still weighs in many ways on Donald Trump. That it was sort of mistakes one through ten,
and a mistake that was not to be made again.
The fact that there's not a backup is somewhat surprising in that regard, given how important it is and how important that loyalty is.
SARAH ELIZABETH CUPP, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: And how capriciously it sounds like this pick came together in the first place. We know from our
reporting, you know, Matt Gaetz went on the plane with Donald Trump and left with an AG nomination. That is not how this should go for these very
high-up positions with huge national security implications.
You know, these should be well thought out, vetted perhaps before, because among all the things it does, you know, the distractions and the time, the
chaos, it puts Republican senators in a really awkward position, right? Republican senators who want to support Donald Trump, but cannot support
someone, a clown like Matt Gaetz.
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I mean, that's a terrible position to put them in. And Trump generally doesn't care about what goes on in Congress, but a lot of Republicans do.
And so, I think maybe, hopefully, this will chasten the Trump transition team a little bit to slow down and make these picks more intentionally and
thoughtfully to avoid all the things, to avoid the scandals, to avoid the delays, to avoid a prolonged Senate confirmation or a confirmation that
will never happen. These should be taken pretty seriously.
HILL: It will be interesting to see if that changes. You know, I believe it was Alayna who just brought this up, but in my initial thought, I have
to say went to Todd Blanche, who of course had been announced as his pick - -
CUPP: Yes --
HILL: For deputy AG. That is an incredibly powerful position. I think it's often overlooked. The Attorney General gets a lot of the attention, but
Todd Blanche has the experience that Matt Gaetz does not, right. I mean, he was a prosecutor before he became Donald Trump's attorney, and yet, a very
well-respected attorney, and also showed very clearly he can carry out what Donald Trump likes in terms of part of his legal strategy, delaying
everything under the sun, he could essentially be moved up.
CUPP: Yes, he ticks all the boxes. And the fact, you know, he was a prosecutor, Matt Gaetz was never a prosecutor. But the fact that he
represented Donald Trump, I think, says a few things. One, he obviously has Donald Trump's trust and his ear, we know that's important to Donald Trump.
And that is not unusual. A number of Presidents have appointed their own attorneys or an attorney who had previously worked with them to that
position. George W. Bush did that with Gonzales, for example, but others had before. So, to have a relationship with the would-be AG, I would
actually consider a plus.
And you know, by all accounts, if you ask attorneys including, you know, the attorneys who work for us here at CNN, Todd Blanche is a perfectly
appropriate and qualified person.
HILL: Absolutely. One of the things that strikes me is these questions over what happens to Matt Gaetz now. As you point out, Donald Trump --
CUPP: Yes --
HILL: May be not as concerned with things in the House, but there's a chance, so, he resigned his current seat in Congress, right? Said he didn't
intend to be sworn in, but the reality is, I think that's still an option, which raises two interesting --
CUPP: Yes --
HILL: Points. Number one, he could be back there, very loyal to Donald Trump in the House. Number two, there's still this matter that House Ethics
investigation and what will happen with it.
CUPP: Yes, these are big question marks. And actually, I mean, I've been looking into whether he's going to be sworn in to the new Congress because
he was re-elected, but there is some language around this that in Florida, it would need to be a special election -- I'm not sure. And so, I'm going
to keep digging on exactly how this will work, and whether Matt Gaetz gets to just go right back into Congress, I'm not sure that he can.
But yes, once he does, if he does, does that just immediately reopen the ethics investigation? I don't know that. And I'm sure that it's part of the
reason why Matt Gaetz went on the plane in the first place, to try and get out of Congress with this ethics report never seeing the light of day. Of
course, hubris will get you every time.
And you know, this idea that he could do all that by becoming the Attorney General and avoid all the scrutiny and scandals that were, of course, going
to follow him, just seems ludicrous to me.
HILL: It is fascinating. This takes care of one issue. There are still a number of questions about some of the other nominees including Pete
Hegseth. We're out of time right now, but I know that we will be discussing those again in the future, and also what it means in terms of Republican
support in the Senate for him and many others moving forward. S.E., always appreciate it, thank you.
CUPP: Sure.
HILL: Well, Russia says it has fired a new type of weapon against Ukraine, and that it is a response to Ukraine's use of longer-range, western-made
weapons. Russian President Vladimir Putin says a strike was carried out by a new ballistic missile with a non-nuclear hypersonic warhead.
So, that largely lines up with what a U.S. official said earlier, who had noted that they believed Moscow used an experimental medium-range missile
in that attack on the city of Dnipro. This coming after Ukraine said it was assessing whether the Russians had actually launched an intercontinental
ballistic missile, otherwise known as an ICBM.
CNN has obtained images of debris from the Russian missiles, which were fired at Dnipro. The official says the U.S. did warn Ukraine and other
countries about the possibility of a significant attack ahead of time. That strike comes after Ukraine had also launched British and French-made Storm
Shadow missiles at targets inside Russia.
Those happening for the first time on Wednesday, and just for context of course, it was a day after Kyiv began using -- firing those U.S.-made
ATACMS missiles into Russian territory. My colleague Fred Pleitgen is standing by now with more coming to us from Moscow tonight. Fred?
FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Hi there, Erica. You know, a lot of new information pouring in here in the past
couple of minutes, the past couple of hours as Vladimir Putin put out a video address to the Russian nation, I would say about an hour, maybe an
hour and a half ago, confirming that the Russians used this new weapons, what the Russians call Oreshnik, which is actually a tree.
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And that this weapon was used -- he said it was an intermediate-range ballistic missile, and that this weapon was used as he put it, in a non-
nuclear hypersonic configuration. Obviously, that means this thing traveled extremely fast and also was not carrying any sort of nuclear warheads. We
saw some of the debris there that is seen -- the photos of which CNN exclusively obtained.
It looked as though when you look at the impacts of some of these sub- warheads that apparently this missile dropped, that it was not really laden with explosives, there wasn't much damage caused on the ground, however, of
course, a powerful message from the Russian President was delivered.
And he outlined that in this address that he put out a couple of minutes ago where he said that this was a direct response to the Ukrainians using
American-supplied ATACMS missiles to strike deep into Russia, but also U.K.-supplied Storm Shadow air-to-surface missiles as well.
We see some of the video right now on our screen as of those sub-warheads apparently coming down over the city of Dnipro. And so, that was one of the
reasons why the Ukrainians came out. And the Ukrainian President came out saying that they believe this may have been an intercontinental ballistic
missiles, because that is the type of warheads that they would drop onto cities.
So, definitely, a very dangerous situation as far as the Ukrainians are concerned. And the Russians are saying, Vladimir Putin is saying that all
of this sends a message to Ukraine, but also very much is meant to send a message to the United States and its allies that Russia will respond if it
is provoked. And he said that Russia reserves the right, as he put it.
He says that Russia is entitled to, as he put it, strike military objects of countries that allow their military gear to be used by Ukraine to strike
deep inside Russian territory, and that they will be met, as Vladimir Putin put it, with a decisive response. So, certainly, the Russians upping the
ante tonight, using what they say is this new weapon which appears to be a very large intermediate-range ballistic missile with apparently some of the
characteristics that you would normally find in an intercontinental ballistic missile. Erica.
HILL: Fred, really appreciate it. As you noted, a lot of developments on this in just a short period of time. Thank you. Still ahead here tonight,
more on the growing arms race between Russia and U.K. -- well, Ukraine. We'll take you live to Kyiv after the break. Plus, the International
Criminal Court issuing an arrest warrant for Benjamin Netanyahu, his former Defense Minister and also Hamas commander. The accusations against them
just ahead.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
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HILL: Welcome back. As we return to news out of Ukraine. You know, Russian President Vladimir Putin has said that the experimental non-nuclear
ballistic missile it used to hit the Ukrainian city of Dnipro. He said that missile actually has a medium range. Joining me now, our chief
international security correspondent, Nick Paton Walsh, who is live in Kyiv.
So, there was some back-and-forth about whether this was an ICBM or not. Russia now confirming what it was. What more are you hearing in Ukraine?
NICK PATON WALSH, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL SECURITY EDITOR: Yes, I mean, certainly from early this morning, the use of the phrase intercontinental
ballistic missile by Ukrainian officials was based, according to Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy, on the speed, the altitude and the behavior
of that missile, its characteristics.
Now, obviously, intercontinental ballistic missile is defined by how far it can travel, 6,000 kilometers normally, and the intermediate range is
between 3,000 and 5,500. This obviously traveled a much shorter distance, just over a 1,000km to get from where many believe it was fired in
Astrakhan to the target in Dnipro.
So, we'll put it in the medium range category. But given no one's ever seen, it seems this missile fired in anger before, then it's quite hard to
necessarily define what its maximum range is. So, there's been semantics all day, frankly, about how to quite classify this missile. What Vladimir
Putin has done is say, this is something that will evade all European western defenses.
It travels at Mark 10, which is a startling speed of about 7,000 km an hour. And it is able to deliver non-nuclear payloads. But you can possibly
surmise to it, might possibly have the ability to deliver something worse than that as well. So, the response from the Kremlin after 48 hours, in
which we've seen U.S.-made ATACMS missiles and British Storm Shadow missiles being fired into Russia proper.
Is this remarkable unveiling of what they claim is a new phase in their weaponry. Now, I have to be clear. We don't quite know exactly how capable
this is or whether the specifications, whether the cell we got from the Kremlin had actually matches what this Oreshnik, the word hazelnut is its
name in Russian, is actually able to do.
And a U.S. official has essentially tried to play this down as an experimental medium-range missile of which the Russians don't have that
many. But it is a sign, I think, that Moscow is keen to show it's able to escalate back from the western escalation we've seen in the past weeks. And
that does mean we're on some sort of ladder of tit-for-tat responses.
I can tell you certainly, that here in Kyiv, the idea that an ICBM has been fired at Dnipro left people deeply anxious. And I think, frankly, the idea
that the Oreshnik may be capable of the speeds they claim it's capable of, even with a non-nuclear payload, will have many anxious too.
Air defense is what keep people in Ukraine feeling they can go about part of their daily lives. And the notion that Russia is now willing to use in
anger a significant upgrade in its weaponry will get people more concerned. As I say, we don't really know much about this missile apart from the
Kremlin have claimed, and what we saw over the skies of the Dnipro.
And certainly, it's fair to say that this missile was accompanied, according to Ukrainian officials by 6 or 7 other devices. Missiles also
fired -- maybe they were trying to distract or overload air defenses so the Oreshnik could get through. But a day in which certainly Moscow is
desperately trying to project strength, technological superiority in a war where they're winning slowly on the ground.
One other thing I should mention, we had a rare negative assessment of the frontlines from British Defense Intelligence, who regularly comment on the
progress of the war, but barely ever say what they did today, which is the frontlines are as unstable as they have been since the early days of the
war, which is a euphemism, frankly, for Russian progress. Their momentum persisting and Ukraine struggling to slow them down.
HILL: Yes, certainly a sobering note to hear there in Ukraine. Appreciate it, Nick, thank you. Still ahead here, Israel reacting with outrage to a
landmark decision by the International Criminal Court, while Palestinians say that decision gives them hope that justice will be served over the war
in Gaza.
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HILL: Before the first time in the history of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, an international court has ordered the arrest of an Israeli
leader over alleged war crimes and crimes against humanity. The ICC announcing arrest warrants today for Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and
his former Defense Minister Yoav Gallant.
The warrant accused them of using starvation as a weapon of war in Gaza, and of intentionally attacking the civilian population there. The court
issued a separate warrant for Hamas commander Mohammed Deif, an alleged mastermind of the October 7th attacks. Israel says he was killed in an
airstrike.
Mr. Netanyahu has called the warrants against him and Gallant absurd and anti-Semitic. The U.S. says it fundamentally rejects the decision. Many
Palestinians, however, are calling this a key step toward justice and accountability. The European Union's Foreign Policy chief says the warrants
must be respected.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOSEP BORRELL, FOREIGN POLICY CHIEF, EUROPEAN UNION: This decision is a binding decision, and all states, all state parties of the court which
include all members of the European Union are binding to implement this court decision.
(END VDEO CLIP)
HILL: The ICC said the warrants are classified as secret, but that it announced some details because the alleged criminal conduct appears to be
ongoing. In the past 24 hours alone, Gaza health authorities say at least, 87 people were killed in Israeli attacks. For more now, my colleague Nic
Robertson joining us from Jerusalem. A very strong reaction from both Netanyahu and from the Israeli government as well as other world leaders,
Nic.
NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: Yes, it is for a shown reaction, and I think to be expected from the Prime Minister and he calls
this anti-Semitic. He goes on to sort of conflate these crimes that he is accused of, as if the ICC is accusing the whole country.
He speaks about the accusations of genocide, of course, that's not what we've seen. The accusations that the ICC have released that we're aware of
at least publicly so far, say that he is accused of war crimes through starvation as a method of war and crimes against humanity with murder and
other brutal crimes.
So, this is -- the Prime Minister doing what he often does and what he did back in May when the ICC first indicated that it might issue arrest
warrants for him, which he's pushed back very strongly and associate himself with the state, the state with him, the people as part of the
state.. And in his statement, he creates an impression that it's the ICC coming down on the people of Israel.
But by and large, that is something that the people on the streets here that we've talked to feel, feel that the ICC is biased against Israel, that
they stand behind the prime minister, not everyone, of course does, but a lot of people do feel this way, that these -- the ICC and U.N. institutions
are biased against Israel. So, it is putting people in that position.
Obviously, the Argentinians have rejected this. The United States say that they reject it as well. A lot of countries that would be obligated to
arrest Prime Minister Netanyahu if he arrived on their soil and then transfer him to the ICC, like the U.K., France, Germany, they've all
remained pretty silent on this up until now.
ERICA HILL, CNN ANCHOR: They have. Although, the Dutch foreign minister, I believe, it said that he was preparing to act on the warrants. But the
reality is, one would imagine, that if the prime minister knows that, that travel would be adjusted accordingly.
ROBERTSON: Yes, Erica, I'm really sorry. We're having problems with the communications here. And I can hear you, but I -- it's just too bad for me
to understand what you're saying at the moment.
HILL: I fully understand.
ROBERTSON: I'm sorry. Would you mind --
HILL: I -- yes, I understand, and I have been there, Nic. All I was saying is that, as you noted, some of those countries a little bit quiet. We did
hear though from, I believe it was the Dutch foreign minister, saying that that the country was preparing to act on the warrants. The reality is,
while the U.S. and Israel, of course, are not signatories of the ICC, of those countries that are, what that could mean is an adjustment in the
travel schedule for the prime minister.
ROBERTSON: Absolutely. The countries that he would normally see as friendly countries, like all the countries of the European Union, the U.K.,
Canada, these countries, are all signatures to the Rome Statute, 124 countries total, and they are obliged. If he lands on their soil, they are
obliged to send -- arrest him and send him to the ICC.
But it is interesting. While we've heard from the Dutch prime minister, obviously, the home, the Netherlands, they're the home to the ICC, this
does put prime ministers like Keir Starmer in a difficult position, President Macron of France in a difficult position. But I think the reality
is going to be that Prime Minister Netanyahu just won't try to travel to those countries. It will limit his effectiveness on the international stage
as a leader.
He is still -- you know, his best allies perhaps are the United States and we can say India as well. Both of those countries are not signatories to
the to the Rome Statute. So, he is still free to travel there. But it is going to limit him, and that's the effect of the ICC. We saw it take this
effect on President Vladimir Putin of Russia. He didn't go to South Africa earlier on this year or late last year, at least, to go to a summit because
South Africa is a signatory to the ICC, a signatory to the Rome Statutes. The ICC has an arrest warrant out for Vladimir Putin, and he could have
been sent from South Africa to the ICC. So, there are real world effects and travel, and associating with other leaders will be one of them, for
sure.
HILL: Yes, absolutely. Nic, appreciate it, and thanks for rolling with the with the technical issues as well. Appreciate it.
Our next guest says those arrest warrants, though, should make Israeli generals reconsider their actions in Gaza, saying that following orders is
no defense. Kenneth Roth is a former executive director of Human Rights Watch and also a former U.S. federal prosecutor. Kenneth, it's good to have
you here.
You know, picking up a little bit, actually, where we just left off with Nic Robertson, I'm not sure if you could hear him, my colleague, talking
about how this could impact, obviously, travel moving forward, but the reality, the practical reality of what this means.
So, let's say Netanyahu never ends up in a country where this warrant would be enforced. What does it do?
KENNETH ROTH, FORMER EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, HUMAN RIGHTS WATCH: It clearly makes him a pariah. And his travel ability is going to be severely
restricted. I mean, even Germany, and it's hard to think of any country that is more reflexively supportive of Israel than Germany. He couldn't go
there because Germany upholds the rule of law. It was one of the key drafters of the Rome Statute leading to the ICC. So, you know, it's a much
smaller world for Netanyahu. He'll be much less effective.
Now, you know, one thing he could do, I mean, instead of all this bluster that Nic just described, you know, to say, oh, you know, Hamas, you forgot
about the hostages, Hamas use as human shields, Israel's just trying to defend itself. This is anti-Semitism, you know, on and on and on, all of
this is irrelevant because, you know, the ICC is not saying Israel can't defend itself, it's saying it can't defend itself by using war crimes. It
can't defend itself by starving and depriving Palestinian civilians in Gaza. That's what this is about.
[14:35:00]
If Netanyahu were to show up in the Hague and, you know, assert these, you know, PR defenses that he's running around with now, he'd be laughed out of
court. They wouldn't last for two seconds. So, you know, if he's serious about defending himself, what he could do is go to the Hague, voluntarily
surrender. That's what Former President Kenyatta of Kenya did, and he was allowed to return and continue being president and just show up
periodically in the Hague to defend himself. That's what Netanyahu would do if he was really serious about defending himself, but he's not. He's just,
you know, using PR techniques.
HILL: As you noted, his defense in saying that this is about Israel's right to defend its citizens by fighting in Gaza. You also made the point
on social media, it's not about that, which you were just touching on, but you noted it's about how this war is fought. Do you see these warrants
leading to any changes in the way things are being conducted on the ground?
ROTH: Well, if I were an Israeli general, I would think twice about continuing to follow war crime orders from Netanyahu. We all know that
following orders is not a defense to war crimes. And I think Karim Khan quite clearly has other charges up his sleeves.
You know, he's been sitting around waiting for the court to affirm these arrest warrants to deal with the Israeli objections. That's now done. He's
already spoken publicly about that massive 2,000-pound bombs that Israel used to devastate Palestinian neighborhoods. So, I wouldn't be surprised at
all to see charges of indiscriminate and disproportionate warfare there.
But, you know, Khan knows how to travel down the chain of command. If you look at how he's proceeded for Russia's war in Ukraine, you know, he
started off with Putin, but then he's now charged four senior Russian military commanders, in those cases, for attacking electrical
infrastructure in Ukraine. Now, if I was in Israeli general, I would want to keep my head down, not continue to follow Netanyahu's orders to try to
avoid the possibility of my name showing up on the dock in the Hague.
HILL: There were not just arrest warrants issued here for Benjamin Netanyahu and his former defense minister, Yoav Gallant, but also for Hamas
commander. What is the real implication of that?
ROTH: Well, I mean, I think it's pretty clear that Deif, the Hamas commander, is dead. They just couldn't confirm that, so they went forward
and affirmed the arrest warrants. But, you know, I think the significance is that Karim Khan is not being biased. He really did look at the most
serious offenses on both sides, and he charged, you know, three Hamas commanders. Now, two of them are definitely dead. The third is likely dead.
I think we can expect to see other charges from Khan targeting Hamas as well, for holding the hostages, for indiscriminately firing into Israel.
But, of course, war crimes by one side never justify war crimes by the other. So, what Khan does with Hamas, what Hamas is doing itself does not
justify Israel starvation tactics, which is the subject of these charges so far, or the indiscriminate warfare, the disproportionate harm, the torture
of detainees. You know, I could go on and on. There's sadly are many things.
Now, one big factor here is what these signals to the people who are arming the Israeli government, because this is basically one big blinking notice
saying, if you continue to arm the Israeli military while it commits war crimes, you could be charged with aiding and abetting war crimes. That's
something that -- the Germans and Brits are already aware of. They've largely cut off their offensive weapons. This is going to be a big issue
for the U.S. government, particularly -- yes, go ahead.
HILL: Well, no, I was going to say that's exactly what I wanted to ask you about, how much of a signal that is to the United States, but also, you
know, sort of back to what every time we have a conversation it feels like about the ICC, it is important to note that, you know, neither the U.S. nor
Israel, in this case, right, did sign on.
And so, the fact that even if this is a blinking light to the United States, to your point, again, we go back to sort of the practical
implications and what could be done there.
ROTH: Well, first of all, the idea that you can be charged for aiding and abetting war crimes when you provide arms to an abusive military. There's a
big precedent for that already. That's Charles Taylor, the former Liberian president, who is currently serving a 50-year prison sentence in Britain
because he sent arms to an abusive rebel group in Sierra Leone. That same theory could apply to anybody who is arming Israel today.
Now, I think, you know, Khan, out of just political prudence, has not been pursuing those charges against Joe Biden or other senior American
officials. He could have. But if Trump comes into office and repeats what he did last time, which is to impose sanctions on the ICC prosecutor, you
know, outrageously interfering with an independent justice institution, that's almost asking Karim Khan to say, OK, I'm going to stop with the
political restraint. You continue to arm Netanyahu as he commits these war crimes. I'm going to charge you, Donald Trump, with aiding and abetting
those war crimes. That could easily be the response to the imposition by Trump of sanctions on the ICC prosecutor again.
[14:40:00]
HILL: That would be something. Ken Roth, really appreciate your insight. Thank you for being with us.
ROTH: Thank you.
HILL: A senior U.S. envoy is pushing ahead with efforts to broker a ceasefire between Israel and Hezbollah in Lebanon. Amos Hochstein arrived
in Israel on Wednesday from Beirut. On Tuesday, he said a ceasefire deal is within our grasp, but noted, once again, it is ultimately the decision of
the parties.
Now, the U.S. has formally asked the judge to force Google to spin off its Chrome web browser. This is another story we're following very closely.
It's a move that comes after a landmark ruling this year, which found Google had violated U.S. antitrust law. The high-profile case focused on
whether the tactics that made Google the default search engine in Chrome as well as on Android devices and more, whether that stifled competition by
shutting out smaller search engines. If approved, the penalties against Google could really revolutionize how millions of Americans search online.
Google, perhaps not surprisingly, has said it's appealing.
Brazil's federal police have indicted a former Brazilian president, Jair Bolsonaro, and 36 others as part of an investigation into an attempted coup
following the country's presidential election in 2022. Incumbent Bolsonaro lost that race to the current president, Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva. Federal
police say Bolsonaro had full knowledge of a group's plan to prevent Mr. Lula da Silva's government from taking office, and they say that group
planned to kill the incoming president and his vice president-elect.
Joining me now with more on this breaking story is Stefano Pozzebon, who's joining us from Bogota. There is a lot in here.
STEFANO POZZEBON, JOURNALIST: Yes, Erica, definitely a lot to think that the investigation report that the federal police has said they have sent to
the Supreme Court for processing is over 800 pages long. And Bolsonaro is just one of 37 people that have been indicted today on these charges.
Charges that span, indictment that spans over attempting a coup d'etat, violent suppression of the rule of law and criminal organization.
What the prosecutors are saying here is that there was a plot to overthrow the rule of law and kill the current president, Luis Inacio Lula da Silva,
his vice president, Geraldo Alckmin, and the Supreme Court Justice, Alexandre de Moraes. This plot was being discussed in the months and weeks
after Lula's victory in the presidential election in 2022. We're talking about October, November 2022. And the prosecutors are saying that Bolsonaro
was personally aware of this plot and was part of these conversations.
You probably remember that a few weeks later, in January 2023, hundreds of thousands of Bolsonaro supporters stormed the Brazilian Supreme Court and
the palaces of power in the Brazilian capital just to present -- to prevent, sorry, Lula from taking office. And this coup could well be has
been part of that movement.
But what is important to note, is that along with across with Bolsonaro, there are other people that have been indicted. Some of them served in his
cabinet while he was president of Brazil, between 2018, 2022. The president of Bolsonaro's party, Valdemar Costa Neto, has also been indicted. This is
a big bloc of the political class that ruled in Brazil throughout the years where Bolsonaro was the president. So, between 2018 and 2022. And you can
see how this investigation cuts way in at the heart of the right-wing movement that Bolsonaro is the leader of, that Bolsonaro represents in the
South American country.
What happens now, however, Erica, is a bit unclear. The prosecutors, the federal police, have presented their report to the Supreme Court. They will
probably ask an opinion to the attorney general, who will now decide whether to confirm these charges and essentially put Bolsonaro on trial or
to toss the investigation.
What we understand from our affiliate in CNN Brazil that has been breaking this story day after date over the last few weeks, Bolsonaro might be put
on trial, but it won't happen before spring next year. So, maybe March, April, or May 2025. But of course, an investigation that is rocking the
Brazilian establishment today, Erica.
HILL: Understandably. Stefano, really appreciate it. Thank you. Still to come here tonight, going green with A.I., how Lost Meadows are being
recovered.
Plus, a look at the extreme weather across the country. But, hey, also, how about some really pretty white stuff? These are pictures from Paris today.
The first snowfall in the City of Light. There she is, beautiful Paris, blanketed in white.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[14:45:00]
HILL: This week as part of our Going Green series. We're highlighting efforts to revive degraded ecosystems around the world. In California's
Sierra Nevada mountains ecologists are tapping into machine learning to uncover what were thought to be lost meadows and restore them back to their
natural geography. Here's Julia Chatterley.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KAREN HOPE, ECOLOGIST, PACIFIC SOUTHWEST RESEARCH STATION: Let's think of the physical structure of what is a meadow. We think of these broad, green,
flat areas, and that's true, and there's so much more. We also have willow and beautiful aspen. And we have lots of little channels flowing over all
this different complex habitat and soil types.
The productivity in these floodplain landscape brings water downstream to the wildlife, the fish and the reservoirs and the people. It's all
connected.
JULIA CHATTERLEY, CNN ANCHOR, FIRST MOVE (voice-over): In California's Sierra Nevada mountains, Meadows have been disappearing over the last 150
years. To help bring back lost meadows, ecologists Karen Pope and Adam Cummings developed a machine learning model to identify where they once
existed.
ADAM CUMMINGS, ECOLOGIST, PACIFIC SOUTHWEST RESEARCH STATION: We developed a suite of elevation variables that we think capture the nature of meadows.
So, we use this to look at the landscape 200 years ago and make educated guesses.
CHATTERLEY (voice-over): Their findings suggest that there used to be nearly three times as many meadows than what currently exist.
HOPE: So, the Lost Meadow model is finding areas that have degraded so much that they've converted to forest.
CHATTERLEY (voice-over): But the model can only do so much. Once the lost meadow is discovered, they've got to get boots on the ground and come up
with a restoration plan.
CUMMINGS: This is our restoration work here. So, we're getting water spreading. This was built maybe six weeks ago, two months ago. The response
can be instantaneous. The animals respond very rapidly, and the plants start to show up really quickly, too.
[14:50:00]
HOPE: There's probably 30 trees used in this one structure to hold this in place. We have two more feet to go before we're going to get full meadow
vegetation out on that floodplain. A hundred years of degradation. Sometimes it takes more than one year of restoration to get the results
we're hoping for.
CHATTERLEY (voice-over): Once these natural structures are put in place, Adam says the meadows will start to self-regulate over time.
CUMMINGS: Once that vegetation starts to grow, the meadow has a lot more resiliency and that water table is going to stay high. And we don't need to
come back year after year after year to keep doing restoration.
HOPE: Meadows are now 2 percent of the Sierra Nevada. They probably were about 6 percent. So, if we do nothing, we will lose our meadows. What we
see here is occurring around the world. Our focus is to extend the modeling efforts to some other areas where these -- this model can be really
valuable. We're moving in the right direction and it's so fabulous to see.
CUMMINGS: What the Lost Meadow model does is it unlocks our vision of the potential for the future, which is really a hopeful thing for me.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
HILL: Well, meantime, Northern California is facing the possibility of record-breaking rainfall. It's a second potential bomb cyclone could
actually be on the way. Residents now preparing for potentially life- threatening flooding, as well as heavy snow, which has already blanketed parts of the state in the north. This snow is expected to head toward the
Rockies this weekend, the Pacific Northwest bracing for more gusty winds. Two people have already been killed in Washington State from those strong
winds and from fallen trees.
Smog continuing to cover parts of Northern India. Take a look at some of these pictures out of New Delhi on Wednesday. The reading for the most
dangerous pollutant, PM2.5. That's 77 times higher than safe levels that were set by the World Health Organization. That pollutant has been linked
to asthma, lung disease, and cancer.
The Indian capital has been struggling with high levels of air pollution for more than two decades, but it has been especially bad this year.
Officials are sprinkling roads with water and dust suppressants, but experts say those efforts are really just temporary solutions.
Still ahead here tonight, a voice actor from the Simpsons hanging up the mic after 35 years on the show. We'll tell you who just ahead.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HILL: A major change over at "The Simpsons."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PAMELA HAYDEN, VOICE ACTOR: I've said jiminy dilliker so many times the words have lost all meaning.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: People are saying what a nerd he is.
HAYDEN: Wazzup?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[14:55:00]
HILL: That voice belongs to Pamela Hayden, who's hanging up the mic after 35 years. Hayden's perhaps best known for voicing Bart Simpson's friend,
Milhouse, as well as Jimbo Jones, Rod Flanders, Janie, and Malibu Stacy. She's going to sign off on her final episode this Sunday, November 24th.
Well, you know, we talked a little bit about the banana tape to the wall that was expected to fetch maybe a million and a half dollars. How about a
whole lot more? This work from an Italian artist actually sold for more than $6 million at auction last night.
The Duct-Tape Banana was bought by a Chinese collector and cryptocurrency tycoon. It was auctioned off at Sotheby's in New York. And for that six
plus million, what does he get? Well, he gets a roll of duct tape, a banana, a certificate of authenticity and instructions on how to install
the piece. You're going to have to replace the banana now and then. It was first purchased in 2019 for a mere $120,000. Guess it turned out to be a
pretty good investment.
Thanks so much for joining me today. I'm Erica Hill. Be sure to stay with CNN. Our coverage continues on Newsroom with Jim Sciutto. Up next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[15:00:00]
END
