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Isa Soares Tonight

World Leaders Gather In Munich As Security Challenges Mount; U.S. Vice President J.D. Vance Slams Europe On Free Speech, Migration In First International Speech; American Detained In Russia For Carrying Cannabis- laced Marmalade; Ukrainian President Meets With Vance, Rubio In Munich; Trump's Strategy To End Ukraine War Gets European Pushback; Hegseth: Poland Is The Model Ally For U.S. In Europe; Russia State Media: U.S. Citizen Detained For Drug Possession; Archeologists Discover Lavish Romanian Baths At Pompeii; Humpback Whale Swallows Kayaker In Chile Before Releasing Him. Aired 2-3p ET

Aired February 14, 2025 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[14:00:00]

ZAIN ASHER, HOST, ISA SOARES TONIGHT: A very warm welcome to the show, I'm Zain Asher in for my colleague Isa Soares. Tonight, we are live at the

Munich Security Conference where the war in Ukraine and President Trump's push for peace talks are taking center stage. And Ukrainian President

Volodymyr Zelenskyy meets with U.S. Vice President J.D. Vance after he slammed European leaders at the conference, comparing them to cold war

tyrants.

Plus, an American citizen has been detained at an airport in Russia for carrying cannabis-laced marmalade in his luggage. We'll bring you the very

latest. And we begin at the Munich Security Conference in Germany. Many European leaders there were looking for some clarity on the Trump approach

to peace talks between Ukraine and Russia.

Instead, they were met with a scolding. U.S. Vice President J.D. Vance, Secretary of State Marco Rubio and Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy

were among those meeting to discuss ways to bring this conflict to an end. Vance says the U.S. wants a durable and lasting peace. But earlier, the

Vice President stunned European leaders, accusing them of trying to squash free speech.

The reaction was swift, with Germany's Defense Minister calling Vance's comments unacceptable. President Zelenskyy struck a defiant tone before

meeting with American officials, saying Ukraine must have a seat at the table during any peace talks.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY, PRESIDENT, UKRAINE: But he will not just, you know, cease fire and that's all. That's why I said to President, yes, but I think

phone calls are phone calls. Let's forget about it. I think what is very important, the meeting, not to make any decisions about Ukraine without

Ukraine. This is principle position. We will never accept -- accept it.

And when I said that we will not accept, I'm not speaking just about me. I'm speaking about all our people, all our nation. People will not stop. We

will give him pause without real security guarantees. We will give him pause. I don't want to, you know, be those person in the history who helped

Putin to occupy my country.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ASHER: President Zelenskyy speaking there. Our chief international anchor, Christiane Amanpour joins us live now from the Munich Security Conference,

where she's just wrapped up an interview with the NATO Secretary-General. So, Christiane, the fact that the U.S. has intimated repeatedly that the

security priorities lie elsewhere, that it has no qualms about negotiating with Vladimir Putin directly, and that it's quite frankly not going to be

the reliable and predictable partner that NATO once had. How does that complicate NATO's agenda going forward, Christiane?

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Well, Zain, you heard from President Zelenskyy himself there. He really did, as you say, strike a

defiant tone. Basically, in the couple of days after this phone call that upended essentially the whole consensus on Ukraine, Russia, he's now saying

loud and clear nothing about Ukraine without Ukraine.

We need a seat at the table. So, that is the theme here. It's also the theme from the European leaders. They're saying, do not think you can go

around our backs. We also need to be at the table if you want to put the onus about guaranteeing, you know, Ukraine's sovereignty and its

independence and its peace on us, we also have to be at the table.

And as you remember, just after Trump's call with Putin, the high representative, the foreign policy chief here in Europe basically said, no

quick fixes, that would only be a dirty deal, and she warned against appeasement. Where are we? We are in Munich, 1938 appeasement. They're very

concerned.

But I did talk to the Secretary-General of NATO, Mark Rutte, who is -- formerly, the Prime Minister of the Netherlands and knows Trump pretty well

from that time in his first term. And he was relentlessly optimistic and positive looking forward. Here's what he told me.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: Now, let's talk about President Trump having called President Putin and then President Zelenskyy about his negotiating plan. What did

Vice President J.D. Vance say to you about that? Because there's somewhat of a public confusion, Hegseth said, you know, he took off NATO membership,

he said it was unrealistic for Ukraine to even think about regaining its territorial integrity.

[14:05:00]

Then Vance had to tell the "Wall Street Journal" that actually, the U.S. would put, you know, sanctions on Russia, and that nothing was off the

table. What is the fact?

MARK RUTTE, SECRETARY-GENERAL, NATO: Well, of course, I cannot disclose what I discussed with the Vice President, but what I am clearly hearing

from all my talks with the senior Americans from the White House, the Pentagon, State Department, is one, we have to make sure that we end this

war as soon as possible. We all want it.

A final deal in Ukraine has to be a strong deal, because we know that China is watching. And a weak deal on Ukraine will not only have consequences

here in Europe and for the collective NATO security, but also for China, which will then feel emboldened to move with whatever they want to do, and

that when the deal is struck, you need security guarantees to make sure that Ukraine can prevail, that Putin will never try this again.

So, it has to be a lasting, a durable outcome. We all agree on that. And I'm really optimistic that we can get there. And for Europeans, part of

NATO is now important to think what they could do to add to a potential success. So, for example, when it comes to security guarantees, what could

Europeans do? Including training now, but also post a peace deal.

AMANPOUR: Oh, yes, well, you know, this is -- this is the question, the Americans have said it's only the Europeans who they intend to police or

whatever security guarantee any deal. Does that mean you face just Europeans? Is it NATO? What is it when you think about that, who goes in to

patrol any line of contact?

RUTTE: But here's the thing. My worry is that we are now already negotiating with Putin without having Putin yet at the table. And --

AMANPOUR: Fine, but that's what the Americans have done. I'm sorry, the Defense Secretary

RUTTE: No, I'm not sure -- no, I'm not sure they're doing that.

AMANPOUR: He said that no American boots on the ground. He said only Europe, and he -- that's what he said.

RUTTE: I think the agreement is this, that whatever the outcome of those talks will be, that Putin should never, ever again to try to capture one

square kilometer or to say it in American terms, one square mile of Ukraine, that is vital. We cannot have a Minsk three. This was the

agreement struck after they kept Crimea -- after they were able to capture Crimea in 2014 and 2015.

We can never have that again. So, it has to be durable. We all agree on this. And then you and I can brainstorm whatever those security guarantees

should be, what exactly should look like. But again, then we are really, I think, informing too much our --

AMANPOUR: So, then, let's talk --

RUTTE: As far as it is in Moscow.

AMANPOUR: Let's talk in general. But some of your allies believe that they've already given too much information to the adversaries in Moscow,

and we'll get to that in a moment. You saw our foreign representative to the EU, Kaja Kallas saying this is appeasement, any quick fix would be a

dirty deal. So, let me just ask you, do you think there's a quick fix underway or a proper -- is it a ceasefire that we're -- that you're aiming

for?

RUTTE: Again, we are -- formerly, Putin --

AMANPOUR: For a peace deal --

RUTTE: We have to work on this step-by-step. For Europeans, and my advice is, get your act together, see what you can do to make sure on the European

side, that you chip into this debate, because that will also guarantee for the Europeans to have a place at that table. Don't ask for us -- create

effects on the ground, engage with the Americans and with the Ukrainians to make sure that you can have a positive influence on a potential outcome of

a peace deal, and then generally, we really have to do this step-by-step.

AMANPOUR: I know you say that, but you are a former Prime Minister, you've had forces in the field supporting NATO missions and peacekeeping missions

around the world. Dutch forces, I've covered them before. Do you think that Europe -- that the Americans will let Europe have a seat at the table, or

that Europe will seize a seat at the table?

In other words, it can't be done around Europe's back. If they expect Europe to take the lion's share of the burden.

RUTTE: But then, Europe has to be relevant in that debate, and Europe can be relevant. Europe can be relevant, one, by making sure that you keep on

providing the military aid to Ukraine -- and by the way, we need the U.S. also to keep on doing that. Maybe the EU has to -- or the Europeans have to

pay a little bit more for that part, but still we need both the U.S. and the Europeans to keep on delivering aid to the Ukraine.

We have to keep on delivering the training into Ukraine to make sure that we train the Ukrainian forces. And then, Europeans can now think of on --

what potentially an outcome of a peace deal could be. What exactly the role could be for countries in a situation, post a peace deal, and then you're

relevant.

So, come up with the plans, engage with the Americans, and don't ask for a place at the table. But make sure that you have the proposals on the table.

AMANPOUR: You mean take a place at the table.

RUTTE: By being active and relevant, and we can do this on the European side. We've done it before. I mean --

AMANPOUR: Do you --

RUTTE: I would not be too worried about it --

AMANPOUR: OK --

RUTTE: And you will have the Ukrainians involved, and by being positively engaging with the Americans and the Ukrainians, you will also have the

Europeans involved.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[14:10:00]

AMANPOUR: So, after that, I spoke to Kaja Kallas, the European High Representative for Foreign Affairs, and she said she was feeling more

optimistic about the European role. She said people are mobilized now, they were very upset by Trump's call, what looked to be like a unilateral, you

know, peace negotiation around their backs with Putin.

But she said they've all really -- she feels, become mobilized to also be absolutely involved. I will also say that they were expecting, you know, I

don't know what really they were expecting from J.D. Vance in terms of his speech, probably a bit more on Ukraine. But as you mentioned, almost

nothing on Ukraine.

But he did deliver a very bold scolding, and that didn't go down very well with Europeans and other delegates here. The German Foreign Minister called

it unacceptable. I heard from another, you know, European delegate who said it was indecent. But they're still all trying to put the best possible spin

they can on this to make sure they all stay engaged, and that nothing happens behind their backs, and Ukraine doesn't get sold out. Zain?

ASHER: Yes, and just in terms of J.D. Vance, I mean, some European delegates essentially saying, listen, how dare you lecture us about

democracy, given what's happening in the United States right now? Christiane Amanpour live for us there. Thank you so much. All right, a

programming note for you, Christiane is going to be interviewing Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy Saturday at the Munich Security Conference,

that's at 10:00 a.m. in Munich.

You can watch that right here on CNN. And before he met with the President Zelenskyy, the U.S. Vice President launched as Christiane was just talking

about a blistering attack on NATO allies gathering at the Munich Conference. J.D. Vance set the tone when he told the crowd, quote, "there

is a new sheriff in town". He barely mentioned Ukraine in that speech.

Instead, the Vice President lectured European leaders who he compared to cold war tyrants on free speech and illegal immigration. He accused them of

undermining democratic values and then offered this warning.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JAMES DAVID VANCE, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The threat that I worry the most about vis-a-vis Europe is not Russia, it's not China, it's

not any other external actor. And what I worry about is the threat from within. The retreat of Europe from some of its most fundamental values,

values shared with the United States of America.

If you're running in fear of your own voters, there is nothing America can do for you, nor for that matter, is there anything that you can do for the

American people who elected me and elected President Trump. And of all the pressing challenges that the nations represented here face, I believe there

is nothing more urgent than mass migration.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ASHER: During his speech, Vance also signaled support for Germany's far- right political parties. Carl Bildt is a former Prime Minister of Sweden and the co-chair of the European Council on Foreign Relations. He joins us

live now from Munich. So, a lot of consternation about J.D. Vance's speech, especially the fact that he didn't really mention the whole point of the

conference in terms of talking about Ukraine's future.

I'm going to get to J.D. Vance's comments in just a moment. But just this idea that there is so much fear among European allies at this point in time

that the U.S. will somehow negotiate directly with Vladimir Putin, essentially behind Ukrainians back, and that Zelenskyy will end up having

some kind of peace deal shoved down his throat, one that he wasn't really party to. Just explain to us the long-term ramifications and consequences

of the U.S. negotiating with Russia directly without Ukraine's say.

CARL BILDT, CO-CHAIR, EUROPEAN COUNCIL ON FOREIGN RELATIONS: Well, we are in Munich, and there is a history associated with the name of Munich, and

that is 1938 when great powers of the day that was Hitler and that was Chamberlain negotiated here on the fate of Czechoslovakia without

Czechoslovakia on the table.

That resulted in the dismemberment of Czechoslovakia, and within less than a year of that, Hitler's tanks was on the streets of Prague. So, we have

seen that movie before of great powers, disregarding the rights of other nations. And let's hope that, that doesn't happen. But it sounded less good

what we heard coming out of Washington the other day.

ASHER: Yes, there's a lot of concern about this idea of appeasement. Just in terms of what could go wrong if the U.S. ends up negotiating --

BILDT: Yes --

ASHER: With Vladimir Putin. I mean, you're laughing, but a lot -- a lot of things could obviously go wrong. But just in terms of --

BILDT: A lot could go wrong.

ASHER: A lot could go wrong. But one of the things that Zelenskyy talked about was this idea that all it would do is embolden Russia to then invade

another former Soviet Republic again, perhaps next year, he mentioned 2026, and also the possibility that after agreeing to some kind of peace deal, he

could then come back around and re-invade Ukraine at a later date. Just walk us through your thoughts on that.

BILDT: Yes, it could be, but I think my more immediate concerns are with Ukraine now and immediately.

[14:15:00]

Because what happened, of course, was that, the U.S. gave some very major concessions to Russia even before the negotiations started. They gave away

the territorial integrity of Ukraine from the American point of view, and they gave away NATO membership. So, Russia's got to pocket those

concessions. Of course, these are fairly major concessions.

And then Russia is going to go on negotiating with other aspects of the sovereignty of Ukraine. That is what Mr. Putin wants to do. And Mr. Putin

is now aiming, of course, at sitting down directly, personally with Donald Trump and try to squeeze him into further concessions. And that is

profoundly dangerous. And that is what brings the danger of a new Munich agreement, and all of the consequences that could follow out of that.

ASHER: In terms of European leaders essentially having to sort of step up their game and fill the void left by the U.S., obviously, one of the things

that President Trump has talked about is this idea of NATO allies now spending 5 percent, 5 percent of their defense budget. I mean, obviously,

that's not happening right now. But how realistic is that from your point of view?

BILDT: Well, I think we have to ask the Americans whether they're going to spend 5 percent? Because that would amount to an increase of 50 percent

roughly of U.S. defense spending. I haven't heard anything of that. They are now somewhat above 3 percent in defense spending. And I think you will

see Europe moving in that direction.

It's not going to happen next year, but I wouldn't be surprised if there would be an agreement going towards 3.5 percent, which is going to -- at

the or slightly above the level where the United States is at the moment. We've had just in the last few years, we had among the EU members an

increase in defense spending by roughly 30 percent.

So, there's a very substantial increase going on. And then on top of that, of course, comes all of the aid to Ukraine where the majority of the aid,

by the way, is coming from Europe, not from the United States. The United States contribution is very significant on the military side, but most of

the help is coming from the European countries.

ASHER: In terms of Zelenskyy's primary concern, obviously, he doesn't want to be left out of the negotiations, but then at the same time, you have

President Donald Trump saying that Russia should be part of the G-7 again, that perhaps, Ukraine will be part of Russia. He mentioned that just a few

days ago. And obviously, I think what shocked a lot of people is the fact that -- not just the fact that he called Vladimir Putin directly and they

spoke on the phone, but that call took place before speaking to Zelenskyy.

How do you think Zelenskyy should position himself to essentially re-insert Ukraine into the sort of growing rapprochement between the U.S. and Russia?

BILDT: I don't think, per se, it's wrong for the President of the United States to get in contact with the President of Russia over this particular

issue. What was really disturbing was the way he presented the result of that particular call, because as it was -- as you said, it was not only the

question of the war and the Russian aggression, it was also de facto the reintegration of Russia into the G7 and mutual state visits and all sorts

of other things.

And of course, the message that, that sent to Russia must have had sort of champagne bottles emptied fairly fast in the Kremlin, and a lot of concern,

needless to say, not only Kyiv, but also in most of the European capitals.

ASHER: Right, Carl Bildt; former Prime Minister of Sweden, thank you so much. Appreciate you being on the program.

BILDT: Thank you.

ASHER: All right, still to come tonight, the families of three hostages in Gaza could be just hours away from holding their loved ones again after an

agonizing separation. Plus, the pope is hospitalized with bronchitis. We'll have the latest on his health and on his condition after the short break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:20:00]

ASHER: All right, welcome back. The next critical test of the Israel-Hamas ceasefire comes just hours from now, when three more hostages are set to be

released. Israel has identified them all men who were seized from a Kibbutz that was overrun by Hamas militants on October 7th. Hamas says that 369

Palestinian prisoners are going to be released in exchange.

Israel had warned that it would start a new war in Gaza if three living hostages were not released by Saturday's deadline. Hamas had threatened to

delay their release, accusing Israel of violating the ceasefire, including withholding some aid and killing civilians in Gaza. U.S. President Donald

Trump's envoy helped broker the ceasefire, but Mr. Trump himself added a new demand this week, saying that all hostages in Gaza must be released by

noon Saturday or the ceasefire is off.

Let's go straight now to our international diplomatic editor, Nic Robertson joining us live now from Jerusalem. So, Nic, just walk us through what more

we know about the three hostages set to be released Saturday, because they were all residents of kibbutz Nir Oz, right?

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: They were kibbutz Nir Oz was really close to the fence with Gaza. And in fact, it was really

devastated there. The highest number of hostages taken from a single kibbutz, I think the number was over about 70. But communities really

stayed close together. Sagui Dekel-Chen, 36 years old, an American-Israeli will be one of those released.

His father, Jonathan Dekel-Chen has been campaigning at the White House with other U.S. officials over the past 15, 16 months, relentlessly. Sagui

Dekel-Chen's third daughter was born to his wife, Avital, while he's in captivity. And his wife, Avital, today posted an Instagram photo of their

three daughters with her, saying letting everyone know that dad is coming home.

So, a real sense of elation already. Now, these families are getting to know the names of their loved ones that are being released. Sasha or

Alexander Lobanov, Russian-Israeli, 29 years old, ran the pub in Nir Oz, he also being released. His father was killed October the 7th, and actually

his grandmother and mother and girlfriend were all taken hostage on October 7th as well.

They were released in that release deal back in November 2023. And the last of the three, an Argentinean-Israeli, 46 years old. Iair Horn, now his

brother Eithan is also being held captive in Gaza. Still, no indication of when he will be released. Clearly, for those families, a sense of relief

for the names also getting released now with a 369 Palestinians to be released, 333 of them were taken prisoner in Gaza, they'll be released, we

understand in a couple of different locations in Gaza.

The 36 others, life prisoners, Israeli -- well, Palestinian prisoners in Israeli jails serving life sentences. And of those 36, we understand 24

will be deported. And that means they'll be either going to Gaza or possibly Egypt. Israel not having them in the West Bank, east Jerusalem.

They are -- those 24 will be leaving Israel is -- that's what we understand at the moment.

And both sides, as we saw last weekend, the huge shock for the Israeli families, seeing the emaciated faces of the three hostages who were

released last weekend, and Palestinians as well, also talking about the poor conditions, lack of food, maltreated in jail, you know, big

grievances, both sides here.

[14:25:00]

No surprise in that, perhaps, but it -- but it speaks to the fragility that we've witnessed this week, the fragility of the agreement at the moment.

And obviously, there are more than a dozen other families still waiting to find out when the names of their loved ones, the remainder of that list of

33 will be released over the coming weeks, Zain.

ASHER: All right, Nic Robertson live for us, thank you so much. OK, Pope Francis is being treated for bronchitis at a hospital in Rome. The Vatican

says the 88-year-old has a slight fever and remains in fair condition. It's not the first time the pope has been hospitalized in recent years. His

struggles with respiratory illness has forced him to ask his aides to finish speeches for him in recent weeks.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JORGE MARIO BERGOGLIO, POPE, ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH (through translator): I would like to ask the priest, the reader, to continue reading because with

my bronchitis, I cannot read still. I hope that next time I can.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ASHER: CNN's Christopher Lamb has more.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CHRISTOPHER LAMB, CNN VATICAN CORRESPONDENT (on camera): I'm here outside the Gemelli Hospital in Rome where the world's media has descended, because

Pope Francis has been admitted here for tests and treatment for bronchitis. He's been suffering from this bronchitis for several days now.

Nevertheless, he's been keeping up a hectic schedule of meetings and events.

And even this morning, he was meeting people in the Vatican, and I was among those who saw the pope as he received Mark Thompson, the CEO of CNN

in a private audience. Now, Francis, to me seemed mentally very alert, but clearly, he was having difficulty speaking for long periods of time due to

the breathing difficulties he has been having.

Francis has been asking aides to read his addresses and speeches because he simply doesn't have the lung capacity to speak for long periods of time.

Now, Francis will be here on the 10th floor of the Gemelli Hospital, where there's a special suite of rooms for him, and that is where the tests and

the treatment will take place.

Now, the Vatican says the pope has canceled meetings for the next three days. The pope won't be seeing people as he undergoes this treatment for

this respiratory disease, which he does seem to be susceptible to. Francis has been hospitalized in the past for bronchitis, and as a young man, had

part of his right lung removed.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ASHER: Christopher Lamb reporting there. All right, still to come tonight, the diplomatic push for peace in Ukraine. What's next for Kyiv following

face-to-face talks with U.S. officials. Next, I'll speak to a member of Ukrainian parliament and why Ukraine is accusing Russia of a new war crime.

We'll talk about that after the break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:31:28]

ASHER: The Ukrainian president is calling for what he describes as real security guarantees in any possible deal to end the war with Russia.

Volodymyr Zelenskyy met with us officials including Vice President J.D. Vance in Munich today. He says his country -- his country's army rather

will have to double inside size if Ukraine is denied NATO membership.

On Thursday, U.S. President Donald Trump largely blamed the war on former President Biden and Ukraine's push to join NATO. Mr. Zelenskyy says any

negotiations about Ukraine's future must include Ukraine.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY, PRESIDENT, UKRAINE: We are very thankful for American support. President Trump, we have good conversation today. Our first

meeting, not last I'm sure. And really what we need to speak more to work more and to prepare the plan, how to stop Putin and finish the war. We want

-- really we want this very much, but we need real security guarantees. And we will continue our meetings and our work and we will be very happy to see

General Kellog also in Ukraine.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ASHER: All right, I want to bring in Yevheniia Kravchuk, a member of Ukraine's Parliament. She joins us live now from Munich. Yevheniia, thank

you so much for being with us. Before we get to Ukraine's future and any kind of peace deal, I do want to talk about J.D. Vance's speech. I mean,

obviously, a lot of people are quite concerned about the fact that he didn't really talk about what he was there to talk about which was

obviously Ukraine's future. Instead, he focused his speech on Democracy, on the fact that he believed that European leaders were suppressing the voices

of its citizens.

I mean, walk us through how you interpreted that speech and what it says about the daylight and the gap that exists between the U.S. and the E.U. at

the moment.

YEVHENIIA KRAVCHUK, PARLIAMENT MEMBER, UKRAINE: Thank you for having me. Well, first of all, we've seen some official reflections especially from

the German side who are hosting the Munich Security Conference. You know, they were sort of surprised with the topic and the tone of voice.

Honestly. I felt a little bit as the reflection or continuation of the campaign that J.D. Vance and Mr. Trump had in United States because the

Vice President also spoke about the migration and the challenges as well as this topic was brought up during the elections in the United States. But

other than that, I think that it made also Europe focused.

Hopefully that was an intent to push for more, you know, not just unity among the European countries but the realization that they have to invest

more in the defense inside of Europe. But I think that there'll be still different views on some of the issues like as -- you know, A.I. and the big

tech companies because you know that European Union does have a separate regulation. It's called DCA Act. And it looks like that European commission

is not given it up.

ASHER: Yes, you mentioned the fact that maybe one shred of sort of good news to come out of this could possibly more -- be more unity among

European allies and also Europe really stepping up in terms of defense. We know that President Trump says that NATO members should be spending at

least five percent of their defense budget towards membership, towards group defense.

Just talk to us about how realistic it is for the E.U., for European allies to really fill the financial void that is potentially going to be left by

the U.S. here.

[14:35:19]

KRAVCHUK: Well, there is some movements in the terms of the expenditure that European countries do in the terms of defense, but it is a process. Of

course, if Europe had started this process not in 2022 but long before, you know, we would have better results. But still you know, I feel that

Europeans, you know, are sure that America First doesn't seem to be America alone. And we do need this unity not just among European countries but

among all the allies in NATO having, you know, the same share in the values, having the same goals.

You know, Europe is more bureaucratic than Ukraine would like Europe to be because the -- you know, they cannot expand the production of military as

fast as, you know, just one single country, but still I think there is a room and a great space for collaboration between United States and Europe.

ASHER: While President Trump was campaigning, he did talk about the fact that he wanted the war in between Russia and Ukraine to end on day one. We

knew that there was going to be a shift in dynamics, but I think that what has taken a lot of people aback is just how much of an advantage and how

much of an upper hand Vladimir Putin already seems to have.

You know, President Trump talked about this idea of Russia being reallowed back into G7. He talked about Ukraine being part of Russia one day. I mean,

there's been so many sort of small nuggets to indicate just how much of an advantage Russia is going to have at this negotiation table. And obviously,

we saw just a few days ago that not only did President Trump and Vladimir Putin have a phone call but that he called Vladimir Putin before speaking

to Zelenskyy. How concerned are you about the dynamics at play here?

KRAVCHUK: Well, our concern is to have a good plan at the table was real security guarantees because, you know, you can use some tricks in

negotiations, psychological, you know, pushing. But at the end of the day, we need security guarantees and a just and last -- long-lasting peace and

not just a ceasefire.

And it's clearly who are the bad guys in this situation. Russia attacked Ukraine, a sovereign state, killing hundreds of thousands of people,

civilians, soldiers, and the bad guys cannot be rewarded. That's, you know, the ultimate goal. And of course, Ukraine doesn't want the repetition of

this war.

And actually, after today's meeting of President Zelenskyy and Vice President J.D. Vance, there was a mutual understanding that it has to be a

long-lasting peace, not returning as a bigger conflict to Eastern Europe in five, 10 years, when Putin gets more tanks, regroups, gets more troops, and

so on and so forth. But also, Ukraine of course, will never, you know, accept that the territories are given to Russia, and they're not Ukrainian

territories anymore. So, the territorial integrity are -- is in our constitution. It's in common sense and international law.

Of course, we understand we do not control the whole territory of Ukraine, but you know, saying it is a part of Russia, that will not happen. Any

person, any politician -- Ukrainian politician could do it.

ASHER: All right, Yevheniia Kravchuk, member of Ukraine's Parliament, thank you so much for being with us. We appreciate it.

KRAVCHUK: Thank you for having me.

ASHER: Of course. All right, President Volodymyr Zelenskyy says a Russian drone attack has hit the former Chernobyl Nuclear Plant. In an act, Ukraine

is now calling a war crime. The concrete shelter that covers the plant was damaged and the fire was extinguished according to the president. Chernobyl

is a site of the worst nuclear disaster in history back in 1986. Officials say that radiation levels have not increased since the attack and the

situation is being monitored. The Kremlin is denying any involvement.

Russian custom officers have detained a 28-year-old U.S. citizen at an airport in Moscow for possession of cannabis-laced marmalade. That's

according to a Russian State media agency. It reports that the man arrived on a flight from Istanbul and could face five to 10 years in prison along

with a fine of about $10,000. He's not yet been named.

Our Nick Paton Walsh joins us live now for more on this story. Nick, what more do we know at this point?

[14:40:11]

NICK PATON WALSH, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Yes. Look, there are limited details available. We know that this U.S. citizen

is 28 years old, was arrested at Vnukovo Airport in Moscow. And it appears to be it seems a relatively frequent issue here, medical cannabis,

essentially candies -- marmalade flavored candies that appear to be laced for medicinal reasons according to some accounts with cannabis extracts

that were found in his bag. And of course, that is illegal, it says, according to the statement from authorities in state media and potentially

could result in five to 10 years in prison and over $10,000 fine.

Now, the timing of this is interesting. We don't have a name. He has been named in court documents but for privacy reasons, that's not something

which the State Department has necessarily confirmed at this stage. The timing is interesting because it was the 7th of September and just four

days later, Trump advisor and U.S. billionaire Steven Witkoff flew to Moscow to collect Marc Fogel, an American teacher, age 61, significantly

older, who had also been detained in 2021 essentially on a relatively similar charge to do with medical use cannabis apparently on his

possession.

So, he was later labeled a wrongfully detained individual by the State Department and diplomatic efforts began to get him out. But this is clearly

a separate procedure that began just as Fogel's negotiations were coming to some kind of denouement and Witkoff was flying to Moscow collect him. I

think it possibly suggests that this is an ongoing process potentially where the Russians may be very keen or very willing to arrest Americans for

similar charges potentially for negotiating tactics in the future. Zain?

ASHER: All right, Nick Paton Walsh, thank you so much.

All right, still to come tonight, Russia is a declining power trying to recover its colony. That's how Poland's foreign minister describes the

Russian president's war on Ukraine. Isa's conversation with Minister Radek Sikorski is just ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ASHER: U.S. Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth says that Europe cannot assume an American Military presence on the continent will last forever. Hegseth

made the comments in Warsaw before wrapping his first international trip since taking charge of the Pentagon. He added that Poland is "the model

ally" for the U.S. in Europe because of its pledge to spend heavily on defense. Poland is also one of Kyiv's staunchest allies as well and shares

a border with Ukraine.

Isa spoke with Poland's foreign minister Radek Sikorski just before Secretary Hegseth made a stop at NATO's headquarters. She started by asking

how important committing to defense spending is.

[14:45:22]

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

RADEK SIKORSKI, FOREIGN MINISTER, POLAND: Well, first of all, all countries put their own interests first. There is nothing new in that. But Poland is

trying to lead by example spending on defense this year is 4.7 percent of GDP, highest in NATO. And we need each other for common defense and for

helping friends and allies.

And I just hope that we sustain the effort to prevent Russia from swallowing up Ukraine because if we don't, not only would European

architecture in terms of security be upended, U.S. credibility depends on it too.

ISA SOARES, CNN INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: And I'm glad you mentioned defense spending, and we have a graphic that we want to show our viewers. And it

shows really how much each country has been chip -- adding to the pot. Trump of course frequently criticized Europe for lackluster defense

spending. Those attacks as you well know, Foreign Minister, have continued the first term. It was two percent. Now, we're calling for five percent.

And from what I have seen, I think it's only Poland that is the closest to that -- to that five percent, not even the United States. How confident are

you, Foreign Minister, that the United States as well as other European countries will add to the pot?

SIKORSKI: Well, spending between three and four was the norm during the Cold War. Europe has been taking benefit of the peace dividend for far too

long. We do have some catchup to do. We need to spend more and there are plans of course. Lithuania for example, our neighbor, is planning to spend

even more than Poland. Good.

Remember though that Europe no longer has global responsibilities. We are only about defending Europe itself whereas America has bases in half the

countries of the globe. So, if we went to somewhere like two or three percent, it would be -- it would be very -- a very big contribution into

our joint Western security posture.

SOARES: And you have probably seen a foreign minister over the weekend speaking of Ukraine that President Trump said speaking of Ukrainians they

may be Russian or they may not be Russian someday. I had a conversation with a Ukrainian guest on my show, a former minister on my show, and he

told me that Ukrainians were -- you know, you can imagine incredibly offended by President Trump's comments. What does this comment, Foreign

Minister, suggest to you about Trump's -- President Trump's vision for peace in Ukraine? What is your vision of what that -- your sense, rather,

what that vision may look like?

SIKORSKI: Well, remember that Moscoviae was created as a province of Kyiv. It's Russia that stole the identity of Kyiv and Rus. Ukraine has been

around for over a thousand years and was for far longer separate from Russia than under Russian domination. Ukraine has a separate language and a

separate political culture and has actually not only Russian security guarantees under the Budapest memorandum but also a border treaty signed by

none other than Vladimir Putin.

And the United States has planted the standard of the U.S. in downtown Kyiv saying that the U.S. will do whatever it takes to protect Ukraine's

independent existence. And I think we should stand by those words.

SOARES: Do you believe those? Do you believe then when the U.S. says that this current administration -- we -- you know, we haven't said that, we

haven't heard that, we've basically heard him say they will end the war in 24 hours but he has been very light on details here. So, give us a sense of

what you are hearing about what a peace plan may look like, how -- what may be done to bring President Putin to the negotiating table?

SIKORSKI: Well, we hope that President Trump wants to win this. It's the United States that is the leader of the Free World and Russia is a

declining power trying to recover its colony. And I think if President Trump wants to make peace rather than just get a ceasefire and thereby earn

a Nobel Peace Prize perhaps, the peace has to be durable and acceptable to Ukraine.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

[14:50:06]

ASHER: All right, still to come tonight, a whale of a tale almost too crazy to believe. We'll have the story from belly of the beast.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ASHER: Welcome back. New Roman ruins have been uncovered at Pompeii in Italy. CNN's Ben Wedeman reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BEN WEDEMAN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Around noon in A.D. 79, it's not clear whether it was the summer or the autumn,

Mount Vesuvius began to erupt within 48 hours. If they were lucky, residents of the city of Pompeii managed to flee, the rest were dead. For

centuries afterwards, Pompeii was largely forgotten until the middle of the 1700s when digging began in Earnest.

GABRIEL ZUCHTRIEGEL, DIRECTOR, POMPEII ARCHAEOLOGICAL PARK: Minerals coming through humidity --

WEDEMAN (voice-over): For Gabriel Zuchtriegel, director of the Pompeii Archaeological Park, the work here never ends.

ZUCHTRIEGEL: Because the site is so vast and it's, you know, 30 -- 13,000 rooms excavated in two and a half centuries.

WEDEMAN (voice-over): There are still new discoveries. The latest this lavish complex of baths including a caldarium or hot room, a tepidarium, a

warm room, and a frigidarium, a room with a pool of cold water, and a banquet hall.

Archaeologists presumed the owner was a wealthy businessman turned politician busy whining and dining, winning friends and influencing people.

Sound familiar?

ZUCHTRIEGEL: I think it's a bit like Mar-a-Lago, right? It's not really a public place but at some point, people would invite stakeholders and

potential supporters and friends.

WEDEMAN (voice-over): This Roman Mar-a-Lago was under renovation. With the eruption, the work came to an abrupt end.

WEDEMAN: This could be a modern construction site with tiles and bricks and gravel lying around, but these were the materials left behind by

construction workers 1,946 years ago. Now, one of the reasons why Pompeii is so well preserved is that when the eruption of Vesuvius took place, it

was covered by this, pumice, lightweight solidified lava.

[14:55:07]

WEDEMAN (voice-over): Anna Onesti runs the dig site here. She says she says archaeologists at Pompeii need to pace themselves as technology advances.

Pompeii still holds many surprises, she says, and that's why at a certain point, excavations have to conclude so that we can allow future generations

after 100-200 years to resume digging and uncover more data.

Stay tuned there's more to come. Ben Wedeman, CNN Pompeii.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ASHER: And a kayaker in Chile is giving the story of Jonah and the whale a run for its money. Take a look at this astonishing moment when the kayaker

was actually swallowed whole by a humpback whale. He was dragged into the water for several seconds before the whale let him go. The man told CNN he

thought he wouldn't survive until he felt his life vest pulling him to the surface. It happened as he was kayaking with his father at a popular

tourist destination about a week ago. Both said that they would kayak again. Very brave of them.

All right, thank you so much for watching tonight. Stay with CNN. "NEWSROOM" is up next.

END