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Isa Soares Tonight
Russian And American Officials Wrap Up Talks To Negotiate The End Of The War In Ukraine; Zelenskyy: Ukraine Will Not Give In To Russia's Ultimatums; Hamas To Release Six More Israeli Hostages This Week; Hamas To Release Bodies Of Four Hostages Thursday; Ukraine Sidelined From Its Own Peace Talks; Zelenskyy Traveled To Ankara To Discuss Security Guarantees; Plane Crash In Canada; CIA Flying Drones Into Mexico; Acting Social Security Head Steps Down. Aired 2-3p ET
Aired February 18, 2025 - 14:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[14:00:00]
ISA SOARES, CNN INTERNATIONAL HOST: A very warm welcome to the show, everyone, I'm Isa Soares. Tonight, we are live in Riyadh for you as Russian
and American officials wrap up talks to negotiate the end of the war in Ukraine. But it was the relationship between Moscow and Washington that
took center stage.
Meanwhile, Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy is in the region, but didn't have a seat or a say in fact, at the negotiating table. Still, he
vowed not to give in to Russia's ultimatums. We'll get the reaction from journalist Nataliya Gumenyuk. Plus, Hamas says it will release more Israeli
hostages this week, naming the six men set to be handed over on Saturday.
But first, let's get straight to the breaking news. The United States and Russia will appoint high-level teams to negotiate the end of the conflict
in Ukraine. That is according to U.S. Secretary of State Marco Rubio, who also says they are working to re-establish diplomatic channels. The U.S. is
describing today's discussions as positive.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MIKE WALTZ, U.S. NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: We know just the practical reality is that there is going to be some discussion of territory, and
there's going to be discussion of security guarantees. Those are just fundamental basics that will -- that will undergird and underlie any type
of discussion.
MARCO RUBIO, SECRETARY OF STATE, UNITED STATES: In order to bring an end to any conflict, there has to be concessions made by all sides. We're not
going to predetermine what those are. Again, we're not certainly not going to negotiate this today or in a press conference for that matter.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SOARES: Well, that's the U.S. perspective. Russia is a bit more measured, calling today's talks useful, but said it's an accomplishment that dialogue
is even taking place. Earlier, CNN's Matthew Chance spoke to Russian negotiator Kirill Dmitriev. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KIRILL DMITRIEV, CEO, RUSSIAN DIRECT INVESTMENT FUND: We're starting from a very low base and we have lots of road ahead of us. But I think the
conversation was a dialogue trying to understand each other's position, respectful dialogue, and that already a huge accomplishment. No ultimatums,
really understanding each other's position.
So, still, a long road ahead. Difficult road ahead. But definitely, Russia and U.S., two very important countries in the world have started talking
together in a positive, professional manner.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SOARES: Well, these crucial talks are coming at the expense of excluding Kyiv from its own peace talks. Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy
warns his country will not give in to what he calls Russia's ultimatum. While all of this is happening, the U.S. special envoy to Ukraine and
Russia met with European leaders in Brussels today.
Let's give you all the context you need tonight. Our teams tracking the high stakes talks from all angles. I want to go to our chief national
correspondent Alex Marquardt in Riyadh, also joining our conversation, senior international correspondent Fred Pleitgen in Moscow. Let me go to
you, Alex. First, it has been a busy day of diplomacy in Riyadh. Talk us through what we heard from the U.S. side and what the next steps are here.
ALEX MARQUARDT, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Well, this was a four and a half meeting hosted by the Saudis. They were in the room and
both sides emerged saying quite positive things. But the way the U.S. is casting this is, this is the beginning of a dialogue. This is the beginning
of a conversation that after three years of frozen relations, historically low relations between the U.S. and Russia, it's time to get the
conversation going again, not just about Ukraine, but about a variety of issues.
You heard the U.S. delegation there talking about the number of -- the number of things they will be discussing at some point, whether it's
territorial concessions, security guarantees, sanctions, essentially what the U.S. said was this is all TBD. We did hear about what they did agree
on, four points -- broad points, I should say.
The first one is that they will continue to try to get their diplomatic missions in Washington and Moscow back up and running to where they were
before the war. Those two stations have been depleted during the war because of diplomats and spies who have been kicked out. And then
specifically on Ukraine, Isa, the two sides said that they would name senior level delegations to continue the negotiations.
And then they looked past the war to the potential for what they call historic economic and investment opportunities.
[14:05:00]
So, this was really a wide-ranging conversation. Now, as you noted, President Zelenskyy was not there -- in fact, he has canceled a trip to
Saudi Arabia that was supposed to begin tomorrow. It had been planned before this meeting. It was supposed to deal with economic issues.
President Zelenskyy saying he did not want any confusion about why he was here, notably that he was not invited to this conversation.
We did hear Mike Waltz; the U.S. National Security adviser responding to this criticism that neither the Ukrainians nor the Europeans were included
in today's meeting. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WALTZ: We are absolutely talking to both sides. The Secretary of State just met with President Zelenskyy days ago, along with the Vice President. Seven
cabinet members in Europe at the same time, really showing the importance of engaging our allies. I think well, the facts will continue to push back
on this notion that our allies haven't been consulted.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MARQUARDT: Now, Isa, Witkoff also highlighting that President Trump spoke with President Macron of France yesterday, the British Prime Minister is
set to come to Washington next week. What the U.S. is arguing is that they are not yet at the stage to bring the Ukrainian and Russian sides together.
This is just preliminary, but they do intend to at some point, and that's why we see Keith Kellogg there going to Ukraine for much of the rest of the
week to engage with the Ukrainians, Secretary Rubio has said that the Europeans will also be involved because, of course, it is their continent
that is being affected.
It is they who have sanctions against the Russians, and then one last point, Isa, there's been a lot of speculation about when President Trump
and Putin might meet here in Saudi Arabia. There is speculation it could happen as soon as next week. Now, we're hearing from both the Russian and
American sides. That is unlikely, there is no date yet for that meeting. Isa.
SOARES: Alex, do stay with us, the view from the United States in Riyadh. Let's go to Fred, who is in Moscow for us. And Fred, the Russians have
called this meeting, quote, "a huge accomplishment", which, you know, diplo speak means they seem to be happy with what they got. And they have reason
in many ways to be happy after, of course, being frozen out by the West, they now have a seat at the table. So, talk us through what they were
potentially pleased with here.
FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, the Russians certainly masters of the understatement, if you will. When he came
out of the meeting, the chief negotiator for the Russians, Yuri Ushakov, who is also a senior Kremlin aide, called the meeting "neplokho" in
Russian, which means not bad.
Obviously, to them, though, it was a very good meeting, they believe, and it's some of the things that we heard there in that interview that Matthew
did with Dmitry -- Kirill Dmitriev, sorry, one of the negotiators for the Russians who called this a huge accomplishment. And one of the things that
he said is that he believes that it's important that the two sides are talking to one another.
But then Sergey Lavrov; the Russian Foreign Minister also expanded on that. And he said that the Russians believe that the Trump administration is
actually listening to them, that the two sides are listening to one another, listening to their concerns. And that's certainly something where
the Russians say they hadn't had that from the Biden administration, obviously, for various reasons.
There was that diplomatic freeze after Russia's full-on invasion of Ukraine over the past couple of years, of course. But the Russians now feel like
they're back on the scene, and it's a vibe, Isa, that you can feel obviously there on the ground in Riyadh, but you can certainly also feel
here in political Moscow as well where the Russians certainly believe that they do have a lot of momentum going for them, that they even in some cases
believe that they have the Trump administration possibly more on their side than it would be, for instance, on the side of its own European allies and
on the side of the Ukrainians.
So, right now, the Russians believing they're in a very good position. Now, one of the things that we keep hearing from the Biden administration is
that -- from the -- sorry, from the Trump administration is that for President Trump, the important thing is trying to end the war in Ukraine as
fast as possible. We heard that from Marco Rubio; the Secretary of State, today.
For the Russians, it does seem to be about more a broader reset. They want a full reset of U.S.-Russian relations, and they see a solution to the
conflict in Ukraine as part of that. However, when you listen to Sergey Lavrov, he was at a press conference after the meeting took place. He'll
tell you that the Russians certainly want sanctions relief.
They want better economic relations as well. Kirill Dmitriev was talking about that the whole time, trying to make clear to the Americans how much
money they were losing through all of these sanctions. So, the Russians are hoping to get that back on track and diplomatic relations as well.
But one thing that, of course, can't be excluded and that the Russians are talking about as well, is that, of course, finding a ceasefire agreement,
getting to that kind of agreement is going to be extremely difficult. Sergey Lavrov, at his press conference after the meeting, came out once
again and said, look, if there's -- if NATO membership for Ukraine is on the table, that would be a serious concern for Russia's security and
definitely a red line for Russia.
The Russians have said in all manner that they're not willing to give back any of the territory that they've taken on the Ukrainian side of the
border. The Russians have said that they don't want the territory that Ukraine currently holds on the Russian side of the border to be part of any
sort of negotiation. They say they want to take that back militarily and force the Ukrainians out.
[14:10:00]
So, certainly, and I think both sides acknowledge it -- acknowledge this. The negotiations are going to be extremely difficult. The Russians saying
they're not willing to give very much. But at the same time, of course, you have the Trump administration saying, look, a peace agreement is the
prerequisite for anything else, for things like sanctions relief and for better economic relations as well. Isa.
SOARES: Yes, it's true. We haven't heard much in terms of concessions from the Russian side. But like you said and Alex said, this is the first step.
Fred Pleitgen, Alex Marquardt, thank you to you both. Let's get more on this. Brett Bruen joins me on set to discuss Ukraine. He's the President of
the Global Situation Room and a former U.S. government official.
Brett, great to have you on the show. You were listening to Fred, you were listening to Alex there, I really want to pick up with where Fred just left
off, and the fact that the Russians are back on the scene. Here we had a meeting between the U.S., between the Russians back at the negotiating
table, no Ukraine on that table, no Ukrainian representative and also no European official there.
Your take. I mean, do you even much hope here for progress or is this just bilateral between -- in terms of rapprochement between both sides?
BRETT BRUEN, PRESIDENT, GLOBAL SITUATION ROOM: Well, let me start with the bear in the room, which is the Russian bear in this case, that Russia up
until today was an international pariah.
SOARES: Yes --
BRUEN: They had invaded a sovereign European nation, and the reason why we didn't have direct face-to-face contact with them is we didn't want to
legitimize what they had done. Secretary Rubio, Mike Waltz, as well as the rest of the Trump administration that's been involved in this, has
essentially handed over that prize to Moscow and said, welcome back.
We will deal with you as a responsible nation. So, if I'm Vladimir Putin sitting in the Kremlin, I am smirking, I am even smiling, perhaps uncorking
some champagne because I just got half of what I wanted and everything that Fred and Alex just --
SOARES: Yes --
BRUEN: Said are Russia's laundry list of demands --
SOARES: Yes, exactly --
BRUEN: I've not heard anything mentioned in the coverage today about what Ukraine, about what Europe needs for Russia to do.
SOARES: Yes, and look, the fact that we don't even have a President Zelenskyy there, it's in many ways is -- President Putin de-legitimizing
him in everyone's eyes is exactly the message. We heard from Secretary Rubio saying that concessions will have to be made. And I think Alex was
talking of that by all sides.
Mike Waltz said we know just a practical reality there's going to be some discussion of territory, and there's going to be discussion of security
guarantees. I mean, first of all, this doesn't square with where Ukraine's starting point is, but this is what Lavrov then said. Have a listen to
this, Brett.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SERGEY LAVROV, FOREIGN MINISTER, RUSSIA (through translator): We explained to our colleagues today what President Putin has repeatedly stressed, that
the expansion of NATO, the absorption of Ukraine by the North Atlantic Alliance is a direct threat to the interests of the Russian federation, a
direct threat to our sovereignty.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SOARES: So, I mean, no concessions from the Russian side so far, plenty concessions we're hearing, and possibilities from the United States.
BRUEN: And let's talk about what Russia should be doing. They should be pulling back from Ukrainian terror -- I mean, this ought to be front and
center for the Americans, obviously, it is for the Ukrainians to say, Russia, you need to push back how far that -- and I know we've had
discussions about this in the past could be up for debate. But the notion that we're not even discussing a Russian pullback, because this is about
Ukrainian --
SOARES: Yes --
BRUEN: Security, it's also importantly about European security, because there are already reports that Putin has designs on the Baltics, has
designs on Moldova or other countries across its --
SOARES: Yes --
BRUEN: Near abroad. And let's also take into account what Secretary of Defense Pete Hegseth said, which is the -- I'm not sure that we'll come to
the defense of a NATO ally. Article five, which has cast a cloud -- I don't know if the audience can see it over much of Europe.
SOARES: And we saw that in the last 24 hours with this emergency summit. Where does that leave Europe? Because there seem to have been divided
somewhat. Yes, they need to scale up and speed up when it comes to armament and providing arms to Ukraine. But they're kind of split on boots on the
ground.
So, where does Europe -- how can Europe fill that gap as we hear these concerns and the mixed messages from the United States?
BRUEN: Well, you have Keir Starmer here in the U.K. saying I'm ready to send, you know, up to 10,000 --
SOARES: Yes --
BRUEN: Troops to Ukraine. The problem is, yesterday, Macron could not even get these, who were, quite frankly, the coalition of the willing on the
same page on core points like whether or not there were going to be European NATO troops on the ground. It was not a successful gathering. It
was not a show that Europe needed to be able to play in this game with Trump.
SOARES: Why is that? Why don't you think Europe could do it? Because they think that that's what Trump wants them to see. Do they think -- what is
the logic behind this? Because Europe has been on board all along in terms of being with Ukraine side-by-side all the way.
[14:15:00]
BRUEN: The challenge for Europe is they want this to be a process --
SOARES: Yes --
BRUEN: And Trump wants this to be a big, splashy play. And if Europe can't move faster, if they can't move farther, they are going to find themselves
left behind. Now that being said, Trump can negotiate this deal, and I think it's really important to underline even what came out of this
meeting. Didn't mention Ukraine at the table --
SOARES: Yes --
BRUEN: Didn't mention Europe at the table. They're still going to have to be the ones to implement it.
SOARES: Yes --
BRUEN: So, if Trump negotiates a deal, Kyiv, Brussels says we're not party to this, we're not going forward with it, we're going to be at a stalemate,
I don't know how we move forward.
SOARES: And this is what we've been hearing from European officials who said just in the last couple of days, they are worried about a quick fix, a
dirty deal was their word. So, clearly, they want a seat at the table, in particular, they want Ukrainians to sit at the table. Let's take a step
back and just pick on what Fred was saying a bit there.
And that is the relationship between Russia and the United States, and how that has changed just in the last few days. Secretary Rubio said yesterday,
I think I said today -- he said, "there are credible opportunities for the U.S. to partner with the Russians geopolitically on the issues of common
interests, and frankly, economically". What does that mean? What kind of deals are we talking about here? Because the Russians will be looking for
sanctions relief.
BRUEN: Well, and this is consistent with Trump's world view --
SOARES: Yes --
BRUEN: Which is, can I build a Riviera in Siberia? And so, ultimately, I think Trump is guided by economic interests. He is guided by superficial
stuff. And so, he is pushing to get a deal done. He's pushing to extract economic benefit, including, obviously from Ukraine, where he presented
Zelenskyy with this give me 50 percent of your rare minerals, which was a price higher, as the telegraph here --
SOARES: Yes --
BRUEN: In the U.K. has reported, than even was imposed on Germany after Versailles. It's really important, I think, that the European leaders are
able to speak with one voice or able to speak quickly, and are able to put forward an alternative plan, because right now, the only game on the field
is the one that Trump is playing.
SOARES: And you'll hear -- and I know you're going to Paris. You know, you speak to a lot of European officials. How do you sense the mood and how
Trump, President Trump is handling this random negotiations? Also, the comments that we've been hearing from Hegseth and others.
BRUEN: Well, one interesting thing -- you know, I was at the Munich Security Conference just last --
SOARES: Yes --
BRUEN: Week. The Americans are not on the same sheet of music. I mean, you have --
SOARES: Yes --
BRUEN: Hegseth, on the one hand saying, you know, Ukraine may have to give up land. You have Senator Wicker, who is in charge of the Senate Armed
Services Committee, saying, well, that was an amateur mistake. And then you have Rubio trying to clean up some of Hegseth's comments. It's fine in one
sense if Trump's team arrives to Europe and has got a radical new agenda, but --
SOARES: Yes --
BRUEN: They're not even on the same page here. So, this is still being worked out, and quite frankly, nobody speaks for Trump, and we just don't
know what he's going to do.
SOARES: Look, I think it was plenty of political whiplash that we have seen in the last few days from this administration, and we'll just have to see
what happens in the next few days. Great to see you, Brett. Thanks for --
BRUEN: Thank you --
SOARES: Coming in, appreciate it. Now, Vatican officials have given an update on Pope Francis' health, saying the 88-year-old is being treated for
pneumonia. The pope was given a CT scan today along with an array of other tests. The pontiff has been in hospital in Rome, if you remember, since
last week, and his medical team says he continues to present a quote, "complex picture".
These are live pictures you are seeing there from Rome, was 18 minutes past 8:00, that's the hospital, Gemelli Hospital where the pope is being
treated. All public events on the pope's calendar for the weekend have been canceled including an audience scheduled to mark the Vatican's jubilee
celebrations.
Let me get the very latest from our Vatican correspondent Christopher Lamb who is outside the hospital there in Rome. And Christopher, we had been
waiting for official statements in terms of an update on how the pope is doing. What are you hearing? How is the pope faring?
CHRISTOPHER LAMB, CNN VATICAN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Isa, the latest news from the Vatican about the pope's condition is quite concerning. We're at
the end of the fifth day of his stay here at the Gemelli Hospital behind me. And the news from the Vatican, as you say, is that he has pneumonia, he
has pneumonia in both lungs. And the word we keep hearing from the Vatican about the pope's condition is complex.
The clinical position is very complicated and so is this polymicrobial infection that the pope has. Now, that infection he is battling has lots of
different elements to it. It's viral, possibly bacterial. There may be other factors involved, and the treatment is not straightforward. Francis,
since he's been admitted to the Gemelli, has had his treatment changed at least a couple of times.
[14:20:00]
And really, the key battle for the doctors is to try and ensure that he responds to this treatment and starts to make a recovery. Now, the Vatican
say the pope is in good spirits, he's asking for people's prayers. We know that -- we saw a group behind me here gathering to pray for the pope. And
he's also received drawings from children at the hospital.
But clearly, this is a serious development that we've heard from the Vatican today. The pope is 88 years old. He has vulnerability to
respiratory infections. He's been hospitalized for bronchitis before as pope, and as a young man, he had part of his right lung removed. There is
no clear timetable for how long the pope will remain in hospital.
As you say, the events for the pope have been canceled. He has been told to have a complete rest. We have been informed that he's made some phone calls
whilst in hospital, including to the Catholic Parish in Gaza. But he is under doctor's orders to stay in his hospital bed to receive treatment and
to rest. Isa.
SOARES: Yes, it's not good when you hear words such as complex picture that is concerning, double pneumonia, that seems to be a shift from what we had
heard as well just a few days ago. But it's good to hear that, you know, he's having his breakfast, he's reading his paper. That is a very positive
sign. And I know you'll stay across this for us. Thanks very much.
Stay across that, of course, and we wish the pope, well and a speedy recovery. Still to come tonight, no deal is better than a bad deal. Those
are the words of one Ukrainian journalist who hopes Europe will finally wake up to the need for more support for Kyiv. Also ahead, a stark warning
from Lebanon as Israel defies the latest deadline to fully withdraw troops after last year's war with Hezbollah.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SOARES: Lebanon says it reserves the right to use all means necessary to ensure Israeli troops leave the country as required by a ceasefire deal
with Hezbollah. It also warns it considers any remaining Israeli presence in Lebanon an occupation. Today marks the latest deadline for Israel to
fully withdraw from southern Lebanon, but it's leaving troops in five posts, saying Hezbollah activists are still present south of the Litani
River.
[14:25:00]
The truce calls for both Israeli troops and Hezbollah fighters to leave the area, which would then be patrolled by the Lebanese army. The U.N. says the
delay violates a key U.N. Security Council resolution. We are learning new details about the expected release of hostages this week from Gaza. Hamas
says it will return the dead -- the dead bodies, I should say, of four Israelis on Thursday, including the youngest hostages Kfir and Ariel Bibas.
They were just nine months old, if you remember, nine months and four months -- four years old when they were kidnapped on October the 7th.
Israel has not publicly confirmed their deaths. Hamas says it will also release six living hostages on Saturday in exchange for Palestinian
prisoners, and they include two men who have been held for around a decade in Gaza after they crossed the border on their own.
Israel says it could begin delayed negotiations on the second phase of the ceasefire deal this week after discussions with U.S. officials. But Foreign
Minister Gideon Sa'ar did not rule out a return to war if negotiations are not, quote, "effective". Let's get the very latest from Jerusalem. CNN's
international diplomatic editor Nic Robertson.
And Nic, I mean, this moment first with the hostages. And it must be so incredibly difficult first for the Bibas family, but also for all of
Israel, because this family has really captured the hearts as well as the pain of so many Israelis.
NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: Yes, everyone remembers that searing image of Shiri Bibas clutching her two young children, four-
year-old Ariel and nine-month-old Kfir, clutching them, sort of covered in a blanket, trying to protect them, the horror and terror on her face as her
captors are sort of pushing and moving her around.
You know, and just a couple of weeks ago, her husband, Yarden was released from captivity, and he was released to the probable knowledge that his wife
and his two young sons were dead. The information from Hamas appears to confirm that. As you say, this was something Hamas said that had happened
as a result of an Israeli air strike towards the end of 2023.
Israeli officials weren't able to confirm that, but it will be a shattering moment for their bodies to be returned, and the nation to get to that
moment of understanding that, yes, the knowledge is now clear that they're dead. And as you say, six other living hostages to be returned at the
weekend. And Hamas, there's an understanding that they will return the remains of another four hostages next week, which will be the 40 -- final
sort of 14 returned, if you will, of the 33 that they agreed to as phase one.
They're actually accelerating through their delivery in terms of returns of hostages in phase one. We're learning from Israeli officials that the
government here -- we heard, obviously, as you say from the Foreign Minister today, I pressed him on this point in his press conference about
when precisely, this week, would phase two begin?
But what we're learning from Israeli officials is actually, the Israeli government isn't racing to get to phase two, even though they're two weeks
behind in getting to that moment. They're actually trying to extend phase one to get more living hostages back. This is probably not going to sit
well with Hamas at all.
SOARES: Yes, and phase two, just expand on that. I mean, this is -- this is a much more difficult phase and it's much more political, this phase. Just
explain why perhaps we are seeing this push by Hamas and this delay on the other side.
ROBERTSON: Yes, there's sort of a triangle of pressures on Prime Minister Netanyahu, not least, President Trump, who wants a swift end to the war and
peace. And the swift end to the war means you have to have a peace deal now. Phase two was supposed to be that phase that would bring you to a
permanent ceasefire, an end to the war.
What President Trump has been calling for, but an end to the war is exactly what members of Prime Minister Netanyahu's government are opposed to, and
are threatened to bring him down if he makes that move. So, there's that threat on the Prime Minister, and then there's the hard reality for both
President Trump and Prime Minister Netanyahu, who say Hamas have no future in Gaza.
The reality on the ground is that Hamas are still there, the 16 months of war so far didn't eradicate them politically or militarily, and they show
no signs of giving up and moving away. So, absolutely, phase two is going to be incredibly tough to achieve for both internal pressures on Prime
Minister Netanyahu, external pressures from the White House and the ground reality in Gaza itself.
SOARES: Important context there from our Nic Robertson in Jerusalem.
[14:30:00]
Thanks very much, Nic. And still to come tonight, no seat at the table. Ukraine sidelined from its own peace talks while the U.S. and Russia
decides its future. We have a live report from Kyiv for you just ahead.
And then later, we are hearing from the passengers who are on board a Delta plane that crashed at Toronto's main airport. We'll bring you both those
stories after this very short break. You are watching CNN.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SOARES: Welcome back, everyone. A European presence was notably absent from discussions on Ukraine between U.S. and Russian officials in Saudi Arabia,
that was our top story this hour.
Among the flurry of global diplomacy, Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy traveled to Ankara to discuss security guarantees with Turkish
President Recep Tayyip Erdogan. President Zelenskyy was due to visit Riyadh himself, as you heard at the top of the show on Wednesday, but he's since
postponed his trip to next month. Ukraine's leader explained that any negotiations will not happen behind the backs of Kyiv.
Meantime, European leaders agree that Ukraine should be involved in discussions on ending the war, but are scrambling to give concrete details,
in fact, on how. Denmark's prime minister is calling for more arms shipments. Have a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
METTE FREDERIKSEN, DANISH PRIME MINISTER: A ceasefire is not it's not automatically peace and it's not automatically long-lasting peace. So, we
really have to ensure that Ukraine have the best possible outcome of negotiations whenever they start, but also starting point. And that means
more donations and more weapons right now.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[14:35:00]
SOARES: Meantime, Britain's secretary of defense, John Healey, says the efforts to end the war in Ukraine signal a new era or threat. This is what
he said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOHN HEALEY, BRITISH DEFENSE SECRETARY: The decisions that we make right now, over the coming weeks, will not only define the outcome of the
conflict in Ukraine, but the security of our world for a generation to come.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SOARES: And all of this comes as Russia intensifies its drone attacks in Ukraine, particularly as you look in there on your map, in the Eastern
Ukraine, in Donetsk. Our Chief International Correspondent Nick Paton Walsh joins us now from Kyiv.
And, Nick, as these talks were ongoing in Riyadh, we heard air sirens wailing in Kyiv and eastern Donetsk, and I've been told by my team as well,
just in the last few minutes, where you are. So, just give us a sense of what the reaction has been on the ground to these negotiations, which
clearly Ukraine was not a part of.
NICK PATON WALSH, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes. I mean, let's just recap on these air raid sirens, because I think we often overlook at
times the daily horrors of being under Russian bombardment here in Ukraine.
Yes, we just heard that here, the possibility this might be actually a ballistic missile threat potentially, which will leave many parts of
Ukraine deeply anxious. And just last night, there were 176 Shahed drones launched at Ukraine, significant number of those shot down, but a high
number, even close to some of the record figures. That's just what happens nightly to ordinary Ukrainians.
Now, that may be obviously leading the emotions we heard from Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy, where he sounded at times angry, I think,
certainly determined when he announced that he would not be traveling to Saudi Arabia tomorrow.
Now, his trip was pre-planned, it was apparently not connected to the U.S.- Russia summit that's just ended today, but I think many felt he was potentially coincidentally there, perhaps hoping to glean something from
the end of that, even bump into some participants, maybe even be invited to something as well. But anger at how he felt Ukraine had been left out of
those talks.
This may be a response to the general positive tone from that discussion described by Steve Witkoff, the U.S. Middle East envoy, as being pretty
much the best atmosphere you could have hoped for. Practically, the U.S. and Russia had agreed to increase their diplomatic presence of their
respective entities in Washington and Moscow.
But ultimately, I think this was Ukraine trying to voice its anger again at this U.S.-Russia rapprochement, a rehabilitation of Russia's image,
frankly, in the eyes of the American public, beginning with the release of American prisoner Marc Fogel by the Kremlin two weeks ago, a rehabilitation
which has many in Ukraine concerned they could find themselves slowly less down the priority issue in terms of these talks.
They seem to be more widely focused on how the Trump and Putin relationship can indeed improve, and I think that ultimately leaves many in Ukraine
thinking they were the main plank of these talks and now may be part of them, but they're actually at the table themselves. Isa.
SOARES: Indeed. Nick Paton Walsh for us there in Ukraine this evening. Thanks very much, Nick.
While writing for Foreign Affairs magazine, my next guest outlines why many Ukrainians themselves are skeptical of any settlement with Putin. She says
that no deal is better than a bad deal. Nataliya Gumenyuk is a Ukrainian journalist and CEO of Public Interest Journalist Lab, and she joins me now.
Nataliya, great to have you on the show. Look, it has been a day of diplomacy, at least in Riyadh, as we heard at the top of the show, to
discuss, really, as -- you know, as our correspondent, Nick Paton Walsh, was just saying there, a peace deal, Ukraine peace deal, but Ukraine was
not present, right? No President Zelenskyy, no Ukrainian representative. How do you -- how do Ukrainians square this? Just speak to what you're
hearing and the concerns right now.
NATALIYA GUMENYUK, UKRAINIAN JOURNALIST, CEO, PUBLIC INTEREST JOURNALIST LAB: So, I think it looks a bit humiliating to see how the American
delegation looked like playing into the Kremlin game, giving them the recognition they wanted so much for many years, but remaining the pariah
without getting anything in return. So, it's more like that.
For Ukraine, it's really thinking and considering what can be the American leverage if Ukraine doesn't accept the deal, which is not in the Ukrainian
interests. And therefore, it means considering fighting longer without the American aid, probably with the European support, because it's important to
understand that Ukraine definitely wants to improve the situation, but the ceasefire in current environment means that Russia would accumulate more
resources, build up its military potential, while Europe and the West and even the U.S. would be distracted by so-called negotiations, because
Ukraine lived through something very similar for eight years. We called it the Minsk Agreement.
[14:40:00]
We heard what Russians suggested today is was something which was on the air for the last weeks, it's like the rumors were there would be the plan
similar to Minsk 3 without -- but without Zelenskyy being the president, something Vladimir Putin wants a lot.
But I think what is important that Ukraine won't like right away alienate the United States or just, you know, Ukraine will still try to use the time
to strengthen itself, to work with Europeans. So, later, the American government would -- you know, this euphoria would be over and they would
understand that there should be a real discussion about the guarantees.
Because without the real -- it's not the Ukraine which is missing in that room, but really, the discussion about the real guarantees which can
improve the situation. Otherwise, it's just prolonging the war because it's not up to the President Trump to tell the Ukrainian soldiers not to fight.
SOARES: Yes, and that we did not hear anything about, right? That was very clear from what came out, at least from what we've got from that meeting.
We did hear Secretary Rubio say that concessions would have to be made, Nataliya, by all sides. We heard that from him in order for the conflict to
come to an end.
But I heard very little in terms of concessions from Russia. Lavrov said that Ukrainian membership of NATO will pose a direct threat to Russian
sovereignty. So, in terms of concessions, how much here and, you know, we don't know what Russian would say here, but how -- what kind of concessions
would President Zelenskyy, would Ukraine be ready to make?
GUMENYUK: It doesn't matter, because this is the wrong question. Because concessions matter and they can be different depending on what Ukraine gets
back. What is the security guarantee? Is it the arming Ukraine so there won't be repetition of the similar war as, you know, full-scale invasion
even in bigger scale? Is it, you know, foreign troops on the Ukrainian soil or something?
Because it doesn't matter how many kilometers of the land Russians control, what ruined cities, you know, Ukraine can give up, it's about the larger
framework. And I think for Ukraine now, it's really a lot the task is talk to Europe because it's not like Ukraine wants, you know, just be offended.
And just like -- that's not the point. I think Ukraine is also interested that the United States is going, again, back to Europe, understanding that
what they are working now is not very realistic. They're kind of trapped by Russia.
It would last for some time, but as I said, they will need to -- they probably would be disappointed, but we need to kind of survive this time.
SOARES: Nataliya, very quickly on that point, I mean, do Ukrainians -- and just really from what you were hearing on the streets, do Ukrainians trust
President Trump? Do they believe he has their best interests at heart here in these negotiations?
GUMENYUK: I think there was a moment when Ukrainians wanted to believe President Trump. The way how the process is handled leads to less trust to
President Trump and kind of returning to the point something Ukrainians could have expected. You know, the worst-case scenario. President Trump
being capable very soon withdraw the American support and consideration how we can substitute this support with something else.
But I think we've given them, you know, still the chance. And I think like President Zelenskyy won't kind of say something negative. He would rather
say, you know, this is a mistake. Let's wait and we'll work still to, you know, persuade the U.S. that what is offering, it's something which is an
old game. You know, we observed it for quite some time. It's very similar. It's something Russians are very experienced.
SOARES: And so, then we -- you mentioned Europe a couple of times, and you saw that emergency summit in the last 24 hours or so, Nataliya, all
agreeing to speed up and to step up income in terms of armament for Ukraine. But there seems to be no agreement in terms of boots on the
ground. What role should Europe be playing here to fill the gap from the United States? What does Ukraine want to see here from Europe?
GUMENYUK: So, of course, honestly, financial -- finance are very, very, very important, because, you know, even investing into the Ukrainian
defense capabilities matter. There are some things which are not -- Europeans are not able to provide. So, for instance, this is satellite
capabilities, and they should consider.
But it's really more about the weapon. It's -- of course, if you really speak about the peace deal, you know about the settlement, you need to have
maybe some kind of type of the peacekeepers, which would be there. So, you need to have probably foreign boots on the ground, but not for the fight
today.
So, if we speak about the defense, it's more about the -- really defense capabilities.
[14:45:00]
SOARES: Yes. And the boots on the ground, this potentially we can -- as we heard from Lavrov or something, that he would not want, seems again, they
are saying exactly what they do not want, but they're not saying what they're prepared to give, which says a lot at this stage.
Nataliya, really appreciate you taking the time to speak to us. Your article on Foreign Affairs was phenomenal. I recommend anyone to go and
read. It talks really a lot about the challenges for Ukraine and really the peace deal at this stage. Thanks very much, Nataliya.
GUMENYUK: Thank you.
SOARES: And still to come tonight, sources say the CIA's flying drones into Mexico. We'll have the details on that just ahead.
And the acting Social Security head steps down. But what's prompted her departure? We'll tell you just ahead.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SOARES: Welcome back. We are learning more details about the moments Delta plane flipped over while crash landing at Toronto, Canada's main airport.
New video obtained by TMZ shows the plane landing, flames, and what appears to be the wing touching the runway, as you can see there.
The crash happened Monday as the regional jet was arriving from the U.S. at Toronto's Pearson International Airport. 80 people were on board, but all
passengers and crews survived. Delta says 21 people were taken to hospitals for injuries, but most have now been released. One passenger describes what
those moments before as well as after the crash were like.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOHN NELSON, SURVIVED DELTA PLANE CRASH: When we hit, it was just a super hard -- like hit the ground and the plane went sideways. And I believe we
skidded like on our side and then flipped over on our back. It was mass chaos. I was upside down. The lady next to me was upside down. We kind of
let ourselves go and fell to hit the ceiling, which is surreal feeling. And then, everybody was just like, get out, get out, get out.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SOARES: Good to hear everyone is OK. thankfully. Now, let me take you to Mexico, where the CIA has been flying covert drone missions with the aim of
spying on drug cartels. That's what current, as well as former officials familiar with the subject have told CNN.
It's all part of U.S. President Donald Trump's move to push security assets to America's southern border. The MQ-9 Reaper drones used on these Mexican
missions are not currently armed, but this same type of drone has been used to target suspected terrorists in Syria, Iraq, as well as Somalia. Sources
say the White House sent a list of drug cartels to Congress last week it plans to designate as foreign terrorist organizations.
[14:50:00]
In the meantime, the acting head of the U.S. Social Security Administration is stepping down, protesting efforts by Elon Musk's DOGE to access
sensitive data. Sources say Acting Commissioner Michelle King departed the agency over the weekend after she refused to provide DOGE staffers access
to recipient information.
The Social Security Administration handles data related to pensions, to disability benefits, and of course, much more. Our Rene Marsh has more for
you.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
RENE MARSH, CNN U.S. NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, the acting commissioner at the Social Security Administration, Michelle King, worked at this agency
for more than 30 years, and she walked away from her decades of service after clashing with Elon Musk's DOGE request to access sensitive systems
that contain Social Security recipients' personal information, including medical and financial information.
About 72.5 million people, including retirees, disabled people and children receive Social Security benefits. So, we're talking about access to
millions of Americans personal information at this agency. Now, Musk has said that this is all about identifying waste and fraud at government
agencies, the White House has said the same, but this is not the only agency where DOGE has -- had access to sensitive systems, Americans private
information, making many career employees at those agencies uncomfortable and concerned.
Career employees have had very similar concerns at the IRS and the Treasury Department as DOGE has gotten access to sensitive systems as there, and
this has certainly been something that has been brought up in the courts and many unions have brought up issue with privacy concerns.
As this all plays out in the courts, what we are seeing is people like Michelle King, decades of service, walking away from the agency,
uncomfortable with the request from DOGE, again, to access Americans personal information.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SOARES: Thanks very much to Rene Marsh. We're going to take a short break. We'll see you on the other side.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[14:55:00]
The president of Mexico is threatening to sue Google. The warning comes after Google Maps changed Gulf of Mexico to Gulf of America for U.S.-based
users only. Mexican president, Claudia Sheinbaum, says that Google's new label is simply incorrect. She argues Trump's decree to rename the Gulf is
not applicable to the entire body of water. Rather, it should only cover the continental shelf under U.S. control. Mexico will await a response from
Google before moving forward with any lawsuit.
New Zealand's latest tourism campaign appears to have gotten lost in translation. The new slogan, everyone must go, is meant to attract
potential visitors from Australia. But critics say it's an advert more befitting of a, quote, "clearance bin at a sale." Tourism is incredibly
important to New Zealand's economy that has struggled to bounce back to pre-COVID-19 levels.
Before the pandemic, it was the country's largest export industry. In 2023, nearly 7 percent of New Zealand's workforce was directly employed by the
tourism industry, and that is according to government figures.
And that does it for us for this evening. Thanks very much for your company. Do stay right here. Newsroom is up next. I'll see you tomorrow.
Bye-bye.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[15:00:00]
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