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Isa Soares Tonight
Trump Calls Zelenskyy a Dictator As Ukraine's Leader Slams Him for Disinformation; European Leaders Scramble to Shore Up Security Guarantees for Ukraine; Italian Prime Minister Meloni Visits Pope Francis at the Hospital; Pope Francis Remains Hospitalized; Trump Blames Ukraine for Starting the War with Russia; Lawmakers React to Trump's Blame on Ukraine; Republican Strategist on "DOGE" Concerns. Aired 2-3p ET
Aired February 19, 2025 - 14:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[14:00:00]
ISA SOARES, HOST, ISA SOARES TONIGHT: A very warm welcome to the show, everyone, I'm Isa Soares. Tonight, an escalating war of words. U.S.
President Donald Trump calls Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy a dictator after Kyiv hits back at the American leader for repeating Russian
disinformation.
Meanwhile, European allies are scrambling to shore up security guarantees for Ukraine, meeting for the second time this week in Paris. The former
Foreign Minister of Lithuania joins me live on the show to discuss. Plus, the Italian Prime Minister Giorgia Meloni visits Pope Francis in the
hospital. We'll bring you the very latest update from Rome.
But first this hour, we begin with a dangerous escalation of words and a deepening anxiety throughout Europe following a stark shift in U.S. Trans-
Atlantic ties. Just in the last few hours, Donald Trump took to his social media platform, as you can see there, and called Ukrainian President
Volodymyr Zelenskyy a dictator, and warned him that he better move fast or he won't have a country left.
And it comes as the United States welcomes Russia back on the global stage, as we showed you yesterday after three years, of course, after Moscow
invaded its democratic neighbor. On Tuesday, U.S. officials met with their Russian counterparts, as you see there in Saudi Arabia, to discuss Ukraine.
Now, the U.S. President is echoing pretty much Russian propaganda, including the false claim that Ukraine started its own war. Have a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We have a situation where we haven't had elections in Ukraine, where we have martial law, essentially
martial law in Ukraine, where the leader in Ukraine -- I mean, I hate to say it, but he's down at 4 percent approval rating, and where a country has
been blown to smithereens.
But today I heard, oh, well, we weren't invited. Well, you've been there for three years, you should have ended it three years. You should have
never started it. You could have made a deal.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SOARES: Well, Russian President Vladimir Putin is dismissing the reaction to U.S.-Russia talks as, quote, "hysteria". Meanwhile, elections in Ukraine
are currently delayed, but it is because -- and I think factor, important here to put it out there for our viewers of martial law imposed in response
to the Russian invasion and the occupation of Ukrainian territory.
The U.S. President's angry social media post came after the Ukrainian President accused him of living in a disinformation space.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY, PRESIDENT, UKRAINE (through translator): I believe the United States helped Putin get out of many years of isolation.
Unfortunately, President Trump, I have great respect for him as a leader of a nation that we have great respect for, the American people who always
support us, unfortunately, he lives in this disinformation space.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SOARES: And all this comes, of course, as European leaders scramble for a united response, and as thousands of NATO troops took part in a drill, as
you can see there at a base in Romania. For his part, Russian President Vladimir Putin is hailing the U.S.-Russian talks as friendly, adding that
he'd be happy to meet with President Trump when it's appropriate.
I'm joined now by senior international correspondent Fred Pleitgen who joins us this evening from Moscow. And so, Fred, President Putin delighted
it seems, like many of the Russian voices that we've heard in the last 24 hours, praising the friendly talks between two countries. How is the
rapprochement between Russia and the United States? How is that being received where you are? How is the media covering? Speak to the tone.
FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, I mean, they're obviously thrilled about all this. I think optimism is probably too
weak a word to describe what's going on here, and not just in the Russian political sphere, but also in society as well. But as far as that tweet
from President Trump or that social media post on Truth Social is concerned, obviously, that causing huge waves also on Russian state media.
[14:05:00]
And from what we saw, the host that was reading that post on TV basically couldn't believe her eyes as well, saying this is absolutely incredible
what they were reading. And so, definitely this is something that really comes on top of, as you mentioned already, that meeting that took place in
Riyadh, what President Trump then said last night about the Ukrainians allegedly starting the war themselves.
All of these things obviously caused a really positive vibe there in the political sphere in Moscow. But I also actually went out on the streets
today, Isa, and spoke to some folks there, and all of them were praising President Trump, hoping that there will be sanctions relief soon, hoping
that in the not-too-distant future, economic conditions and relations between the two countries are going to be restored as well.
And what you had going on today, you already mentioned President Vladimir Putin saying that the talks went very well, also saying that he wants to
meet President Trump as fast as possible. There was also an address today by the Russian Foreign Minister, Sergey Lavrov, where he said that western
nations, specifically the United States were now coming to Russia to try and mend relations and to try and restore relations.
One of the things that Lavrov said, like many other Russian politicians is that they really feel that the Trump administration is listening to them,
that they are getting their point across about -- as they've said, why this war started about the root causes as they put it as well, for the conflict
between Russia and Ukraine.
So, certainly, the Russians right now eyeing a deal to end the war on favorable terms for the Russian federation, but then also, of course, a
larger reset between the United States and Russia. And certainly, judging by the words from President Trump that we heard in that post on Truth
Social, it seems as though they have good reason for that optimism.
One thing that I found very interesting is that there are some politicians, Isa, who are coming out and saying they actually believe that the position
as far as Ukraine is concerned of the Trump administration at the moment is closer to the way Russia sees it than the way that the U.S.' own allies,
and certainly the Ukrainians see it. Isa.
SOARES: That is very telling indeed. And very quickly, do we have any sense of when they're likely -- both Presidents are likely to meet here? What are
you hearing, Fred?
PLEITGEN: Not yet. I mean, we're getting mixed --
SOARES: Yes --
PLEITGEN: Messages. President Trump said that he -- obviously, said that he wanted to meet Vladimir Putin before the end of this month. We know there's
a couple -- only a couple of days left until the end of this month. Vladimir Putin today said that he believes a meeting like that needs proper
preparation simply because, as he put it, the two leaders can't just sit down and have tea, coffee and discuss political matters, that certain
things need to be worked out before they need to be working groups.
There need to be things that are prepared. And he believes that that's something that could take a bit of a longer period of time, simply because
there haven't really been contacts in that sphere between Russia and the United States over the past couple of years, since the invasion of Ukraine
began, the full-on invasion.
And so, he believes that that's something that needs more preparation. Dmitry Peskov, the spokesman for the Kremlin, was also asked about this as
he was traveling on Vladimir Putin's plane earlier today, and all he said, he said maybe there will be a meeting before the end of the month and maybe
not. So, right now --
SOARES: Yes --
PLEITGEN: Certainly, it is very much in the works. It seems to be in the works at a high pace, but it's unclear how soon the meeting will take
place. Isa.
SOARES: Fred Pleitgen for us this evening in Moscow, appreciate it, thank you, Fred. And we'll go to Paris in just a moment for a sense, really, of
what's come out of that meeting. My next guest, though, says "Ukraine can no longer rely on U.S. assistance, the U.S. President wants a deal, he
wants it fast. Fast deals cost more for the buyer, but the U.S. is not willing to foot the bill.
So, ultimately, Ukraine will have to pay the price." Writing that on X is my next guest, Gabrielius Landsbergis; the former Foreign Minister of
Lithuania, he's also recently appointed member of the Munich Security Conference Advisory Council. Mr. Landsberg, great to have you back on the
show. Let me just pick up really with our top story and those comments, staggering comments, I should say, from President Trump calling President
Zelenskyy, quote, "a dictator without elections". I will get the reaction from Europe in just a moment, but give me your reaction to that post that
Fred was alluding to there.
GABRIELIUS LANDSBERGIS, FORMER LITHUANIA FOREIGN MINISTER: Well, I think that there's a question why President Trump decided to go out and say these
words today. My guess is that his plan was to force Ukraine to accept the deal that he is -- probably already agreed with President Putin.
And when he has seen President Zelenskyy not relenting, calling for more European help and assistance, I think that this is where he decided to, you
know, to put all his weight and, you know, all the lies that have been told about Ukrainians and about the President, Zelenskyy on public in order to
pressure President Zelenskyy to relent and to give in into, you know, what is actually Putin's offer for a deal.
[14:10:00]
SOARES: So, what do you think that deal is? I mean, I saw a similar thought from the British Prime Minister, Boris Johnson, who said that "Trump's
statements are not intended to be historically accurate, but to shock Europeans into action." So, speak to what potentially that deal could mean
and why really go to the length of undermining President Zelenskyy at this juncture?
LANDSBERGIS: Well, because he has -- he has no other option. If Zelenskyy is not taking the deal that makes President Trump looking weak, I mean, you
know, if I were to give an advice, you know, that the best advice was given by President Roosevelt when he said that, you know, speak softly and carry
a big stick.
Well, unfortunately, I mean, now it looks like President Trump is talking rather loudly, and when it comes -- when it comes to helping Ukraine, well,
he's carrying rather small stick.
SOARES: Yes, we haven't seen many sticks. In fact, what we didn't see in that statement on Truth Social or in fact on any posts or in any comments
we have seen this week so far, is any criticism whatsoever of President Putin. In fact, what we've heard in the negotiations so far have been
concessions. So, a lot, like you said, lots of carrots, not much stick.
I mean, in that case, how worried then should Europe be about the negotiations that they are not part of, that Ukraine is not a part of. And
does this weaken Ukraine's hands here in the negotiations?
LANDSBERGIS: I think that Europe has to be prepared that, for the fact that the deal is basically made. We've heard most of the requests that Putin has
mentioned, you know, even from the start of his full scale invasion being repeated by the U.S. administration. Putin asked for new election, U.S. is
now asking for new election. Putin said that, you know, you have to accept that the territories will remain under occupation.
U.S. administration is repeating exactly the same thing. Putin wanted no NATO in Ukraine again, Secretary of Defense is again repeating the same --
the same thing. So, basically for Russians, the deal is already made. I think that they will pretend to be asking more, you know, kind of to --
make it look like a negotiation, but actually it is -- it is done. So, Europe has to prepare because it is clear that Ukrainians are not taking
the deal --
SOARES: Yes --
LANDSBERGIS: That President Zelenskyy is not taking this Putin's deal. And it's up to Europe to help Ukraine survive what comes next.
SOARES: So, I'll get to Europe in just a second. But just picking up on what you said there, why then make all these concessions to Moscow right
now? How do you interpret that? Is there sort of economic transactions here? How do you interpret this moment and all these carrots that be and
these concessions being offered to President Putin?
LANDSBERGIS: Well, my guess is that President Trump wants the deal fast. And this is where his interest and Putin's interests align. You know, Putin
can make a fast deal, especially if he's getting everything, you know what he has been asking. You know, there's also a question whether President
Trump's envoy, Mr. Kellogg, when he said that the deal will require at least 100 days, you know, to be prepared, that Ukraine has to be put on a
stronger position, and then suddenly we see that he is, you know, basically sidelined from the -- from the conversations.
You know, he's not going to, you know, he's not going to Moscow. He's not received there. So, I think that when he promised, when he said that we'll
need more time than 24 days, that was the election promise, you know, this was the reason why he was -- he was taking from the -- you know, he was
pushed aside.
And then President Trump said, you know, I will do whatever. You know, I will promise the Russians whatever. I don't care about Ukraine, I don't
care about Russia -- about Europe, I don't care about Trans-Atlantic alliance. Basically, I just want this deal fast. And this is why I'm saying
that fast deals cost the most.
SOARES: Yes, speaking of costing the most, I mean, we've got another meeting, another summit, European leaders, President Trump, I think in the
same post on Truth Social. We also heard him calling out Europe for pretty much failing to bring peace. This clearly is Europe's moment to stand up,
to speak out. So, what are we likely to see here?
Because on Monday at this emergency meeting, just recap for our viewers. You know, they all agreed to speed up, to step up when it comes to
production. But there was no kind of cohesive agreement on boots on the ground and what needs to be done. So, what do we need to see from European
leaders? Because on X, you've spoken about the risks here.
If Europe is unable to stand up, Ukraine will be forced to rely on itself and a smaller group of allies that continue to give support. Threats to
European security will grow immensely. Putin will get braver, meaning more war in Ukraine, Moldova, Georgia and beyond. So, what do we need to see
from this summit from European leaders?
LANDSBERGIS: Well, I'll mention a couple of things. You know, first of --
SOARES: Yes --
LANDSBERGIS: All, where Europe can agree is money. And there is some almost 200 billion euros of Russian frozen assets lying in European banks.
[14:15:00]
If seized, they can be used to help Ukraine immediately. And just to give you an example, so United States throughout the three years has given more
-- an equivalent of 65 billion euros worth of weapons to Ukraine. So, 200 billions of Russian assets would provide as much -- as much support as
Ukraine -- as U.S. has given in three years.
So, that would buy a lot of equipment, a lot of ammunition and really would change -- would be a game-changer on the battlefield. The second thing is
troops. Clearly, we have to make sure that Russians are deterred from attacking Ukraine in the future. And for that, I think that there is no
other way rather than sending troops to Ukraine to make a promise that the next time, if there is a next time, Ukrainian troops would not -- would not
be fighting alone.
And last point here is, Europe cannot just invite Ukraine into the European Union, but integrate and do that fast, because European Union can provide
stability to Ukraine, financial stability, economic stability, help it rebuild and also work as a deterrent for Russians because for them to
attack a European Union country might be a -- you know, a step too far.
SOARES: Do you think they'll agree on any of those proposals, you think? Because I remember you and I talking about some of those, at least the
first point you were making on freezing the funds and we're still here, you know, 2 or 3 years later. What about troops? I mean, when Macron mentioned
that ages ago --
LANDSBERGIS: Yes --
SOARES: He -- we saw the eyebrows being raised across the continent.
LANDSBERGIS: Look, I mean, I've heard so many times that all of these things are super close impossible.
SOARES: Yes --
LANDSBERGIS: Almost, you know, it's impossible to agree, but I say that it's even more difficult to rebuild the country or rebuild Europe after
Russia's attack.
SOARES: Mr. Landsbergis, always great to get your perspective on this, crucial at this moment. Thank you very much, great to see you. Thank you.
LANDSBERGIS: Thank you.
SOARES: Right, we brought you the view from Russia. We've got former Foreign Minister here with his insight. I want to give you a sense of what
we are expecting then from these -- from this meeting, from this gathering. I want to bring in our senior international correspondent Melissa Bell live
from Paris.
And Melissa, I was just having a conversation there with Gabrielius Landsbergis; the former Foreign Minister of Lithuania, talking about some
of the proposals that actually I have discussed for several years with European Foreign Ministers about what needs to be done.
What are we likely to see here from this meeting in terms of coordinated response? And give me a sense, if any of these Ministers meeting today have
responded to President Trump's comments regarding Zelenskyy, calling him a dictator.
MELISSA BELL, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, this was a series of meetings, remember, that began on Monday, that continued again this
Wednesday here in Paris, that Emmanuel Macron, the French officials surrounding him, had always said was likely to be the beginning of a
conversation, right?
This was kick-started by those comments we heard over the course of the weekend from a number of senior American officials, not least the Vice
President in Munich, that really focused their minds and got them to that emergency meeting on Monday. This was the second part to which were
convened.
Many of the leaders who hadn't been invited the first time around -- the idea really to consider how Europe can continue to weigh on these
negotiations and what it can plan for. And to your question, I think what we've seen over the course of the last few days is certainly a meeting of
the minds and a realization from the part of Europeans that they're going to have to step up and do much more, not only to ensure their own security,
but of course, those security guarantees to Ukraine.
What we're seeing coming out of these negotiations and these talks, and again, this is an initial talk, where there will be many other talks in
many other formats in the weeks and the months to come. But Europeans are clearly divided on the question of who will send troops to the ground of a
post-peace Ukraine? But there is certainly a move amongst Europeans.
You mentioned a moment ago, Isa, that last year when Emmanuel Macron became the first European leader to mention the idea of troops on the ground, how
everyone sort of went nuts at the idea and this was not on the cards and no one is going to consider it. Now in fact, Keir Starmer has joined and what
we're looking at, the Elysee has specified is not combat troops.
We're looking at frontline operations. We're looking at Europeans who will be able to fulfill peacekeeping operations much closer to the back lines.
And -- but with -- and this is the insistence from all the Europeans involved, not least the Germans, that it will take American support. None
of them are going to go there without the American backstop as they call it --
SOARES: Yes --
BELL: That security guarantee that will allow them to provide the troops that are needed for that future peaceful Ukraine, but with the help of the
United States behind, I think that's one of the most interesting things to have come out of these meetings. Of course, Europe needs to step up.
They're all aware. They need to get closer to that 5 percent of defense spending of their GDP that Donald Trump has insisted on.
I spoke to the Secretary-General of NATO the night before last, and he said Europeans are moving that way. Everyone understands they need to do it, and
they're going to make those efforts.
[14:20:00]
But more than that, the question of how they continue to guarantee their own security nonetheless, as they head into Ukraine post peace, is going to
be with the backing of the United States. Isa.
SOARES: And I know you'll stay across those meetings for us. Melissa Bell for us in Paris this evening, thanks very much, Melissa. And still to come
tonight, people looking to buy a car in the United States could soon be in for quite a rude awakening. Details ahead on President Trump's latest trade
plan. Anna Stewart joins me next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SOARES: While the world talks about the future of Gaza, tens of thousands of Palestinians are fleeing their homes in the occupied West Bank as
bulldozers turn parts of refugee camps into rooms. Tulkarem, Jenin, Shams(ph), all targeted by a major offensive that Israel says is rooting
out, quote, "terrorism". Tulkarem's governor calls that a pretext, saying it's purely political operation to satisfy hardliners in the Israeli
government.
A far right Israeli Minister who oversees settlements in the West Bank ordered preparations for the annexation of settlements back in November,
although it's unclear what the government is planning -- is actually planning at this stage. The U.N. says 40,000 Palestinians have been
displaced from their homes so far.
Well, President Trump says he's getting ready to roll out a new round of punishing tariffs, which could have a major impact on Americans' wallets.
Mr. Trump says he'll impose tariffs of around 25 percent on imported vehicles, pharmaceutical products as well as semiconductors, possibly from
we understand as soon as April.
And this comes after Trump, if you remember, imposed a 10 percent tariff on imports from China on top of existing levies. He also announced then, if
you remember, take a step back, delayed it, 25 percent tariffs on goods from Mexico and Canada. Anna Stewart is tracking all of this and she joins
us now.
So, Anna, just break it down for us because we talked about -- we know he loves tariffs. We remember from his first administration --
ANNA STEWART, CNN REPORTER: Most beautiful word in the dictionary --
SOARES: Right, exactly. And then we've seen the tariffs for China that went ahead 25 percent, and then we've seen 10 percent, then we've seen the
tariffs from Canada and Mexico that's been delayed. And then were reciprocal tariffs. So, do we know how this impacts Europe? Because I've
been speaking to European leaders and they are kind of preparing for this. We've seen their language shift.
STEWART: I mean, Europe has been preparing for this for months or even years because --
SOARES: Yes --
[14:25:00]
STEWART: Of course, they knew that this could be a possibility or a likelihood during the election campaign if President Trump became President
again. So, here we are. And what was so interesting is that this latest proposal, which we won't get more detail on, we're told, until April the
2nd, was announced yesterday because today is when the EU trade commissioner is in Washington D.C. for trade talks with his U.S.
counterparts --
SOARES: How appropriate, yes --
STEWART: How appropriate. So, it makes you question how much of this is just a negotiation, because a lot of the tariffs announced in the last 24
hours would impact Europe, particularly German car manufacturers. When it comes to pharmaceutical products, Ireland is the biggest exporter or
importer into the U.S. of pharmaceuticals.
So, the EU would be hit very hard. EU trade commissioner was just speaking earlier and it was interesting. There are so many different strategies you
can take with this. Do --
SOARES: Yes --
STEWART: The Christine Lagarde checkbook strategy and say, hey, we'll buy more LNG from the U.S., and that's how we'll come to a sort of compromise,
or do you make clear that you're going to retaliate? Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MAROS SEFCOVIC, EXECUTIVE VICE-PRESIDENT, EUROPEAN COMMISSION FOR THE EUROPEAN GREEN DEAL: If the U.S. imposes tariffs on EU products, it would
create unnecessary barriers to European exports, harming businesses and workers on both sides. Therefore, to protect European interests, we will
have no choice, but to respond firmly and swiftly.
But we do hope to avoid this scenario, meaning the unnecessary pain of measures and countermeasures, and remain committed to constructive
dialogue.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SOARES: And this is somewhat measured because what we heard, I think, last week or the week before, was them saying we will retaliate.
STEWART: So, they will do everything they can to avoid tariffs. But if tariffs are imposed, make it very clear that there will be retaliatory
tariffs. The question, of course, is what would Europe target?
SOARES: Yes --
STEWART: Would they target certain states with influential policymakers like they did in the first administration? Levi Jeans, Bourbon Whiskey,
Harley-Davidson motorbikes --
SOARES: Motorbikes, yes --
STEWART: Or you know, there was a question, would you target a certain person close to the President? You may have a car business. There was no
answer on that.
SOARES: We shall see what happens. Negotiating tactic, perhaps, as we have seen. Anna, thank you very much. And still to come tonight, we are tracking
the escalating tensions between the United States and Ukraine, including, of course, the accusation that led up to Donald Trump calling Volodymyr
Zelenskyy as we told you at the top of the show, a dictator. That's next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[14:30:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SOARES: Welcome back, everyone. Prayers are pouring in for Pope Francis. He remains hospitalized. The 88-year-old pontiff has been diagnosed with
pneumonia. In the meantime, the Vatican continues to issue updates, which they have done just in the last hour or so. Our Vatican Correspondent
Christopher Lamb, joins us now from Rome. So, give us a sense what we are hearing regarding the pope's and how he's faring, Christopher.
CHRISTOPHER LAMB, CNN VATICAN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Isa, we've had an update from the Vatican this evening and it says that the pope's condition is
stable and that there has been a slight improvement. And it's that word, improvement, that people have been looking for the time -- during the time
the pope has been in hospital, the Gemelli behind me, he's been here since Friday. We're into the sixth day of his hospitalization and we had that
very serious development yesterday. The news that the pope has pneumonia in both of his lungs.
He's 88 years old. He has a history of respiratory infections and is part of his right lung removed. It was removed when he was a young man. So, this
statement from the Vatican is an encouraging one. The pope was also, today we're told, met with Italian Prime Minister Giorgia Meloni for 20 minutes.
He's also, according to the Vatican, got out of bed and has been able to have breakfast and to do some work. So, these are encouraging signs.
Of course, we don't know how long the pope will be in hospital. He has a complex infection that requires different kinds of treatment. But, tonight,
it does seem that there has been, as the Vatican says, a slight improvement. Isa.
SOARES: And that is very good news indeed. Christopher there for us outside at the hospital -- Hospital Gemelli in Rome. Thanks very much, Christopher.
Appreciate it.
I want to return now to our coverage of Ukraine's uncertain future. We know that U.S. President Donald Trump has been echoing Russian talking points,
as we told you at the top of the show, as we heard from our correspondents, all European allies, as we heard from our Melissa Bell in Paris, are trying
to scramble to prepare a coordinated response.
On Tuesday, Mr. Trump falsely blamed Ukraine for starting the conflict with Russia. And then, today, on social media, you can see there, he called
Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy a dictator. As you can see, dictator, he says, without elections. And it comes just hours after Mr.
Zelenskyy accused President Trump are repeating disinformation from Russia. We will take you to Kyiv for very late in terms of reaction to how that is
being received. And also, news, of course, of this deal that they really wanted -- that President Trump, I should say, wanted on rare minerals, if
you remember. And that we understand that President Volodymyr Zelenskyy has pushed back on that.
Let's go to our international security correspondent, Nick Paton Walsh. I told you we're going to Kyiv. Joins us now. So, Nick, I mean, let's start
off, first of all, on this escalating criticism of President Zelenskyy by President Trump. I mean, how are those words -- and there is so much
misinformation, disinformation in there and falsehoods, how is that being received where you are?
NICK PATON WALSH, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Yes. Look, I mean, I think there's still shock, frankly, about what we heard in
the Oval Office last night. We've been hearing from Ukrainian officials and civilians all day, their consternation at the idea of Ukraine being blamed
for starting this war. And indeed, Zelenskyy has a 4 percent poll rating. That led to Zelenskyy's statement about Trump being in a disinformation
space.
I should say he was -- tried to caveat that with some respectful comments, suggesting he respected Trump and the American people, but clearly, Trump
took offense at that and then launched into this extensive, frankly, dissection of President Zelenskyy using falsehoods, suggesting that he'd
admitted half the aid that had been given by the United States, $350 billion had gone, quote, "missing."
[14:35:00]
That's not the case, period. It's not even that figure that's been given by the U.S. He was then called a dictator who was refusing to hold elections.
Yes, there is a reluctance to hold elections here because there's a war going on. And we've seen Russia interfere in the last 22 years I've been
covering here in peacetime votes. And people we've spoken to don't even know how you'd go about holding elections even if there was a ceasefire in
the short period of time you'd need.
So, that electoral procedure would cause huge doubts about the legitimacy, I think, of the government that followed after it and potentially chaos
amongst the armed forces on the frontlines. Where are a million soldiers going to vote? Where are the millions of refugees in Ukraine across Europe
going to vote as well? So, a lot of questions there.
But this persistent narrative, essentially, we're hearing now, day after day, that Ukraine is somehow stealing the money it's been given and that
Zelenskyy is somehow not really the beneficiary of a democratic mandate. Both false. Zelenskyy today reminded people that his polling figures that
he has suggest he's at 57 percent. There are many figures out there and the president has said they would have again look at the possibility of
revisiting some of those polls to present more evidence in the weeks ahead. But we've seen this personal animosity escalate remarkably.
And, Isa, I should bring you another piece of reporting we've had. There was an extraordinary visit here by the U.S. treasury secretary before all
the Brussels and European engagement we've seen the Trump administration indulge in. And that offered a rare earth mineral deal to the presidency
here. Essentially, some sort of resource payback for United States aid.
Now, we understand from sources familiar with the document that this proposal was for half of Ukraine's rare earth minerals and other natural
resources, but to pay back aid that they'd already got in the past, not to guarantee or compensate the U.S. for future aid, but to pay back aid they
already got under the Biden administration.
And indeed, that same document had about two or three pages of legalese and then listed specific places, specific resources that the United States had
in mind. Zelenskyy rejected that, and I think there is now a real question if it's not accepted, and officials have suggested it should be accepted,
quite what that means for the future of U.S. military aid. That's the tone of the relationship here at the moment prior to this extraordinary Truth
Social post by the president of the United States.
And so, we're into a very uncertain period here, where the presidency of Volodymyr Zelenskyy is one that has led Ukraine this far unexpectedly
against a Russian assault, but now appears to be a severe impediment in its relationship with the United States. Can that be healed? Can they get back
to discussing how a peace deal might possibly be formulated? Unclear. And there's also now a continued narrative from the most powerful man in the
world, President Donald Trump, that often resembles things we've been hearing in the last months from Moscow.
So, we are into quite extraordinary times, where the last three years, unexpected as this war has been on its turns, is being thrown on its head.
Isa.
SOARES: Yes. Very much parroting some of the Moscow rhetoric that we -- and misinformation that we have been hearing for the last several years, that's
for sure. Nick, appreciate it. Thank you very much indeed.
And still ahead right here on the show, while critics sound the alarm about DOGE, President Trump has nothing but praise. We'll talk about all of this
with Republican strategists after this break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[14:40:00]
SOARES: Welcome back, everyone. I want to turn to Capitol Hill, where U.S. lawmakers are listening to heated exchanges between America and Ukraine's
president. Some Republicans have largely avoided weighing in, but Senators Tom Hill, Tillis, and Kevin Cramer said Russian President Vladimir Putin is
responsible for the nearly three-year conflict. Meantime, Tommy Tuberville says the blame should be shared on both sides. Have a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. TOMMY TUBERVILLE (R-AL): I blame us as much as Ukraine for what we've done over the years in taking out their administration and putting in
Zelenskyy in 2014 and not going by the Minsk agreement, which we should have. But, there's a lot of -- I guess you could blame a lot on both sides.
But we do need to get it over with. I mean, it's a disaster.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SOARES: And now, take a listen to Democratic Senator Chris Coons' reaction when speaking with our Kate Bolduan just this morning.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
Sen. CHRIS COONS (D-DE): Standing arm in arm with Ukraine and Europe, we could force an end to this war on terms that are good for Ukraine. Instead,
President Trump seems poised to betray Ukraine and abandon Europe. That would make him the biggest loser of the 21st century. He would be picking
the team that includes Iran, North Korea, China, and Russia over the team that is Ukraine and our trusted and loyal allies of 75 years.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SOARES: Let's get more on all of this. CNN Reporter Annie Grayer is tracking these reactions from Washington, D.C. And, Annie, look, Europeans
kind of shaking their heads, the Ukrainians also in disbelief. Give us a sense of what you are hearing there in Washington.
ANNIE GRAYER, CNN REPORTER: Well, there are a lot of Republicans who don't want to weigh in here and are declining to comment or just deferring back
to the president's statements, but there are a couple notable Republicans in the Senate specifically who are disagreeing with President Trump's
assessment.
For example, Republican Senator Tillis said, quote, "make no mistake," end quote, that Putin is responsible. Senator Cramer said, clearly not accurate
to say Ukraine started the war. Thune -- Senator Thune, who's the majority leader in the Senate, said, quote, "there is no question," end quote, that
Russia is the aggressor here. And then, even more moderate Republican senators like Lisa Murkowski said she would not refer to Zelenskyy as a
dictator. So, we are seeing some separation here from Republicans in the Senate, though they are being very careful in encouraging to let President
Trump speak for himself, even if they are disagreeing with his assessment and characterization of Zelenskyy.
SOARES: Annie, appreciate it. Thank you very much indeed. Well, in a legal win for President Donald Trump and Elon Musk, a U.S. federal judge, has
denied requests from state attorneys general to block DOGE's access to sensitive federal data and prevent it from firing employees at multiple
government agencies.
That is despite the judge saying the lawsuit, quote, "legitimately" calls into question what appears to be the unchecked authority of an unelected
individual. The attorney's general had argued Musk's role violates the Constitution.
I want to get a perspective now from Republican strategist, Doug Heye. He is a former communications director for the Republican National Committee,
a well-known face on the show. Great to have you back in London.
DOUGLAS HEYE, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST AND FORMER COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR, REPUBLICAN NATIONAL COMMITTEE: It's good to be with you.
SOARES: Can I just pick up, first of all, I mean, Danny was -- Annie was talking about the divisions that we are hearing in Washington. Just these
comments, this escalating criticism of President Zelenskyy, the wording and dictum. The relations seem to be souring here.
We heard former Prime Minister Boris Johnson saying -- alluding to the fact that this is a tactic from President Trump. How do you interpret this? What
are you hearing?
HEYE: Well, I hope the former prime minister is right. I actually had coffee today with his chief of staff, Shelley Williams-Walker. And one of
the things we talked about was the dynamic images of when Boris Johnson went to Ukraine. He was at a very troubled time in his prime ministership,
and that really rescued him for a while.
Donald Trump knows imagery better than probably any Republican president or Democratic president other than maybe Ronald Reagan, and it's surprising
that maybe he hasn't gone in this route. But Donald Trump loves the people who love him the most. And what we've seen is that's been consistent
whether we're talking domestic policy or foreign policy and it's why you're hearing so much outcry.
[14:45:00]
Gosh, I've heard so much of it just today in London.
SOARES: Oh, I bet.
HEYE: But you're hearing it from every corner of Europe right now.
SOARES: So, Doug, I mean, you're talking about imagery. The image we saw in the last 24 hours of U.S. officials, U.S. secretary sitting in Saudi Arabia
in Riyadh with the Russians. I mean, the Russians being back, having a seat at the negotiating table, but no Ukrainians, no Europeans. And then, as we
heard from a former foreign minister on my show, just at the top of the show, he was saying, you know, it does feel that there's a lot of carrots
and no sticks. So, what is the tactic here, would you say, from President Trump?
HEYE: I think it's what can benefit Donald Trump short-term.
SOARES: Economically, you mean?
HEYE: Potentially. Or also what gives him the most attention. Donald Trump believes that if he is the focus of attention, good attention, bad
attention, that is always in his benefit.
Now, on this case, I would certainly disagree with that. And having spent, you know, a fair amount of time in Poland over the past few years, they
feel this very personally in a way that people back home in Washington, D.C. don't -- or throughout the country. That's not a voting concern for a
lot of Americans. That's one of the other things that Donald Trump knows.
SOARES: But you're saying like a win at any cost, really?
HEYE: Absolutely, yes.
SOARES: Let's talk about -- because so much has happened just in the last few months, I want to focus on DOGE, because we are continuing to see kind
of a continued chaos and uncertainty over that his government efficiency and these federal agencies. Defense Department now seems on the chopping
block.
Give us a sense of whether -- first of all, it's through the courts. It seems a lot of this is going by the courts, right? Is this -- they're not
having much effect. I mean, being very effective. How do you see this playing out? Because we've had about four, I think four federal judges,
four times in recent days, they haven't been able to push this through.
HEYE: So, the short answer is, I don't know. And I don't really think anybody who does, except for those who tell you, whatever is going to
happen is going to be what benefits my side. So, you can sort of immediately disregard that.
We know that a lot of this is going to continue to be fought in the courts because of what is happening, you know, is unprecedented. And one thing I
hear pretty consistently on Capitol Hill is concerns about what is going on and what the impacts are.
So, Republicans who talk about cutting government, they want to see government cut. But when you storm into the Department of Defense or the
Department of Transportation or pick your agency, let's say the Small Business Administration, for example.
SOARES: Yes, yes, yes.
HEYE: So, I was press secretary for the Small Business Administration years and years ago, and what people don't think realize is when you have
wildfires in California or hurricanes in North and South Carolina, it's not just FEMA that goes in, it's the Small Business Administration that comes
with small business loans. It's a multitude of agencies.
So, when you go and you just hack away, you then limit the effectiveness of what that agency or department can do. And so, a lot of Republicans want to
know more about what the impacts are. And maybe they don't want -- they know that you can't get rid of some things through a scalpel, but they'd
rather see a chef's knife than a meat cleaver is what we're seeing.
SOARES: But that takes some time in order to be felt. So, is the messaging -- the point that you're making here, Americans who voted him in -- didn't
vote, obviously, Musk in, but President Trump in, are they worried at all? Does this resonate with U.S. voters?
HEYE: This isn't breaking through to the independent voters yet. And part of this, I think, is by design. Donald Trump is moving so fast on so many
things, you can't keep up. It's the -- you know, the proverbial plates that are spinning. And how do you follow all of that?
So, I have a client that's a university. They're going to be affected by this on a medical research grants. So, when they have to talk to not just
their local news, but to students, professors, that local community, this is what they need to emphasize. These are our impacts, which also then
means these are the larger impacts on everyday Americans.
So, cancer research is pretty important. Again, it's not necessarily a voting concern that people think about day to day. They're going to --
these universities that benefit from grants coming from HHS or other healthcare agencies, they're going to have to talk about it in that way.
SOARES: We heard, I'm sure you saw as well, Musk and President Trump held an interview yesterday on Fox. Very friendly, very jovial, talking pretty
much showering each other with praise. I want to play a little clip of this. Let's play it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ELON MUSK, TRUMP PRESIDENTIAL ADVISER: One of the biggest functions of the DOGE team is just making sure that the presidential executive orders are
actually carried out. And this is -- I just want to point out, this is a very important thing because the president is the elected representative of
the people. So, it's representing the will of the people. And if the bureaucracy is fighting the will of the people and preventing the president
from implementing what the people want, then what we live in is a bureaucracy and not a democracy.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SOARES: And while we have had people saying, you know, lawmakers have been largely quiet, how well will this argument sit with a lot of people? He is
-- you know, all goes up -- all the way up the chain. It's his decision.
[14:50:00]
HEYE: This, I think, is the argument that they want to be making, and that can sell very well with voters, even if they don't like necessarily
everything that is being done, they like that things are being done. And, you know, ultimately -- and it's not very sexy to talk about process in
Washington, D.C., but I can tell you, having worked in Congress, Republican congresses gave too much power to George W. Bush. Democratic congresses
gave too much power to Barack Obama. All of this, and you can say H.W. Bush and Reagan and Clinton, this is generations in the making of increasing the
power of the presidency, as opposed to Congress, that has enabled Donald Trump to do this.
So, who's guilty on this? Obviously, Donald Trump is first and foremost with Elon Musk, but every member of Congress, every senator who's voted to
essentially give up their own power and move that to the executive branch. Again, that's not sexy, but that's the reality of it. It's part of how we
got here.
SOARES: Can I ask you very briefly, I mean, you come and visit us in London, you know, during your trip. And we're incredibly grateful. But last
time you and I spoke was just before the election. How do you assess how President Trump is faring? We're what, a month -- or over a month in or so?
How is he faring so far?
HEYE: Well, obviously he's the dominant topic of conversation as I think we would expect, but it sort of depends how you look at the numbers, because
the same number can tell you two different things. Donald Trump is about 53 percent approval in the country right now. That's a majority. That's the
highest he's ever been. So, if you're --
SOARES: Same as -- almost roughly as President Zelenskyy.
HEYE: Yes. Well, or 4 percent as he's claiming.
SOARES: Yes.
HEYE: But -- so, if you're the Trump White House, you can accurately say that Donald Trump is more popular now than he's ever been. This is also,
that 53 percent number, the lowest any incoming president has ever been, you know, one month into his term. And so, if you're the Democrats, you can
make that argument as well.
The reality is, ultimately, Democrats need to start talking about those things that voters are caring about, first and foremost. And if they take
their eye off the ball, which Donald Trump is very good at getting Democrats to take their eye off the ball, he can drive that conversation a
bit longer.
SOARES: And I was going to interject and say, and that's what we haven't heard. We haven't -- we had very little silence from the Democrats. It's
starting to pick up with these cuts of a DOGE. But so far, a lot of silence from the Democrats. We'll see if that changes. Doug, always great to see
you on set.
HEYE: It's great to be here. Thank you.
SOARES: Thank you very much. And still to come tonight, astronomers are barely containing their excitement for new sightings in deep space. What's
got them swirling when we return.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[14:55:00]
SOARES: Thousands of tourists have flocked to Sicily's Mount Etna to see a spectacular eruption of lava. And while most of them are well equipped and
led by guides, the Civil Protection Agency says some are blocking roads and preventing the movement of rescue vehicles. The agency head tells CNN eight
hikers were lost for hours on Monday before rescuers finally located them. Italian authorities are warning the public of a dangerous situation on
Etna, which is the most active stratovolcano in the world. This latest series of eruptions start if you remember last week.
Astronomers observing a so-called pyrotechnic extravaganza in the outer reaches of our galaxy. Using the Webb Space Telescope they've reported
dynamic flares of light near the black hole at the center of the Milky Way galaxy. And a description of the phenomenon is quite exciting. The rapid-
fire display includes seconds long, short flashes, and longer blindingly bright flares of light.
When astronomer compare the sightings that's going from black to white images to color, saying quote, "we found rainbows."
And that does it for this hour of the show. Do stay right here. I'll be back with Newsroom in just a few moments.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[15:00:00]
END
